Ni and Relationships

[Lobo]

Assuming that Ni is the function that allows for a better understanding of time progression, I wonder if any relationship with dissonant Ni (as in one person makes use of it, while the other doesn't) can cause a sort of "painful" experience to the person who actually thinks about the reality of how things actually unfold. I have seen this play out at times in my own life actually, and I was wondering if this is something that is characteristic of people who are in some way proficient at considering "time."

I have come to a point where I feel like I want to steer away from people who are overly optimistic about the time they have for things, and always seem to squeeze in time for new things rather than trying to maintain what they have, not knowing that they can actually lose what they had with this sense of time greediness. I've noticed this play out with friends from alpha and delta, so I thought that it was related to not valuing Ni. It makes me feel bad when I'm talking to someone and they are so genuinely convinced that "we will be hanging out sometime soon" when you just know that it's not going to happen... Or, how a friend can tell you that they "didn't have the time" to read something important you sent them which can be read in less than a minute, when they end up talking for hours on the phone with someone who they just met, and don't see how these two things have anything to do with each other.

How can someone deal with this type of people without feeling some kind of disappointment from them not being able (or just not seeing the need) to make more time for the "more important things" such as friends and family? The type of person that when you're hanging out and talking you are interrupted by their cellphone going off, and they start texting or accepting a call, as if it cannot wait for a couple of hours... This type of thing is starting to really turn me off. Makes me wonder what is the point in maintaining this type of relationship if they don't have the time.

[717495]

I relate to this idea with relationships. For instance, the last person I was with I knew things wouldn't work out. I loved her to death but at the same time I knew I couldn't, because of her. I knew she would be the one to leave and I could gradually sense the difference.

There are awesome movies like this where "knowing" actually means its going to happen. If the person didn't know ahead of time, it wouldn't happen and everything would be fine. Basically like that movie where the guy get's the newspaper of tomorrow, and has to save the world.

That's how I feel about relationships.

[Lobo]

I relate to this idea with relationships. For instance, the last person I was with I knew things wouldn't work out. I loved her to death but at the same time I knew I couldn't, because of her. I knew she would be the one to leave and I could gradually sense the difference.

I think that eventually there comes a boiling point when you just can't take it anymore. I'm starting to consider that sometimes breaking things before they get ugly is best, until maybe a future time when they have more time.

There are awesome movies like this where "knowing" actually means its going to happen. If the person didn't know ahead of time, it wouldn't happen and everything would be fine. Basically like that movie where the guy get's the newspaper of tomorrow, and has to save the world.

That's how I feel about relationships.

I know the show you are talking about. Sometimes I feel like that for sure, but it seems to "ruin it" for people when they hear comments on where things might be headed. They'd much rather not know, until things take their natural course, thinking that by making this type of comments it's already jinxing what's going to happen. I respect this type of thinking. However for me, I'd much rather know in order to work on avoiding potential problems and not waste time and energy.

[Lobo]

It's not just about having/not having time. It's about having/not having time either 1)when you feel like it or 2)when something else isn't a priority. So, you know you need to read something that takes a second, but you don't have the psychological energy to do that when you know you have other pressing things all around you that you have to do... therefore, the time existed, but not coupled with mental readiness.

As for saying you're sure you'll be seeing a friend soon, this is often just something people say, isn't it?

I agree. Everyone has their priorities, and where they put more time. When you are not in someone's priority list, it's inevitable that you will be put on the back burner. My problem is with said people's priorities, which to me can be very questionable. It's selfish to expect people close to you to spend more time with you when you know they have other priorities that to them are more important, but it's something that at least for me is hard to deal with... I'm fully aware that it's selfish, but I can't help but want to slip away and just leave the person be, and I'll go work on another relationship where there is more mutual attention. It also takes psychological energy for someone to be fine with being in the back burner, at least for me. There's only so much of it I can take before I get turned off.

[Lobo]

As for saying you're sure you'll be seeing a friend soon, this is often just something people say, isn't it?

Not when it's a close friend. But yes, that is something people usually say.

[redbaron]

I agree. Everyone has their priorities, and where they put more time. When you are not in someone's priority list, it's inevitable that you will be put on the back burner. My problem is with said people's priorities, which to me can be very questionable. It's selfish to expect people close to you to spend more time with you when you know they have other priorities that to them are more important, but it's something that at least for me is hard to deal with... I'm fully aware that it's selfish, but I can't help but want to slip away and just leave the person be, and I'll go work on another relationship where there is more mutual attention. It also takes psychological energy for someone to be fine with being in the back burner, at least for me. There's only so much of it I can take before I get turned off.

that's what you should do then.

I think it could also be the case where you might ask yourself why you need to be such a main priority for someone else. What need are they filling in your life at this point in time? Maybe it would help you in the long run to learn to fill your needs yourself. That way, when your friends DO have time, you can be happy with that time rather than annoyed that it's not more time. Maybe subconsciously you're sending out negative vibes that you're not happen with them and that's partly why they aren't making you a priority. If you were MY friend irl, I might sense your unhappiness and shy away. Too scary!! Too demanding!! lol

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Instead of psychologically labeling that as Ni, I guess you feel like... you have to take one moment each time as it comes, as every little fraction of a second counts? Although that's technically true, I can still see how things are unfolding (or if they are at all).

I don't mean to be patronizing here, but if you want to make the world a better place it always starts with you, because within you you already have all the answers encoded in your DNA. They just need unlocking. You were just.... imprinted with a certain personality and preferences, but most of them are malleable. They can change and be more versatile to fit your external world.

If people aren't accepting where you are currently at unconditionally, then it's not love- it's control, they want you to feel bad as they do. But you can empower them everytime you empower yourself.

[Lobo]

that's what you should do then.

I think it could also be the case where you might ask yourself why you need to be such a main priority for someone else. What need are they filling in your life at this point in time? Maybe it would help you in the long run to learn to fill your needs yourself. That way, when your friends DO have time, you can be happy with that time rather than annoyed that it's not more time. Maybe subconsciously you're sending out negative vibes that you're not happen with them and that's partly why they aren't making you a priority. If you were MY friend irl, I might sense your unhappiness and shy away. Too scary!! Too demanding!! lol

I understand what you're saying, and it's something that I've definitely considered. What's odd though is that I'm a really independent person, and in terms of "needing" other people, I don't think it's a clingy type of thing. I give people their space, and I don't like forcing someone to do something that they don't feel like doing. But I just don't like it when things feel rushed, or done just to get them out of the way, especially when it comes to things outside of work (aka relationships in general). Like, if I'm going to hang out with you, it has to be done "right," if that makes sense.

So instead, I would opt with what I mentioned of just slipping away instead of trying to make someone do things that they don't want to do. I'm very big on people living the way they want to live. Why would you say that it's scary and demanding? Or is it just a gut feeling?

[Lobo]

[quote=BulletsAndDoves;530389]Instead of psychologically labeling that as Ni, I guess you feel like... you have to take one moment each time as it comes, as every little fraction of a second counts? Although that's technically true, I can still see how things are unfolding (or if they are at all).

Yes, exactly. I do believe that being aware of time is related to Ni though.

I don't mean to be patronizing here, but if you want to make the world a better place it always starts with you, because within you you already have all the answers encoded in your DNA. They just need unlocking. You were just.... imprinted with a certain personality and preferences, but most of them are malleable. They can change and be more versatile to fit your external world.

If people aren't accepting where you are currently at unconditionally, then it's not love- it's control, they want you to feel bad as they do. But you can empower them everytime you empower yourself.

Is this referring to me not accepting people unconditionally? I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I was just trying to speak to the general picture of your compliant. You're trying to sort out what you view as a relationship quirk that is bothersome right? So you are analyzing in your head about it, but from an outsider's perspective is it really that big of a deal. I mean can't you just say bluntly but nicely "I'd prefer it if you would slow down" or just do something to make them challenge their insights, although to be gentle with this as a Ni-ego will challenge you greatly if you are too critical with their foresights.

As long as I feel people are trying to see where I'm coming from, then I'll see where they are coming from. It's when one type gets bossy and doesn't understand that all types exist in society, that's where the problem is.

[Lobo]

I was just trying to speak to the general picture of your compliant. You're trying to sort out what you view as a relationship quirk that is bothersome right? So you are analyzing in your head about it, but from an outsider's perspective is it really that big of a deal. I mean can't you just say bluntly but nicely "I'd prefer it if you would slow down" or just do something to make them challenge their insights, although to be gentle with this as a Ni-ego will challenge you greatly if you are too critical with their foresights.

As long as I feel people are trying to see where I'm coming from, then I'll see where they are coming from. It's when one type gets bossy and doesn't understand that all types exist in society, that's where the problem is.

Well, it's not something that by me just saying it will be "fixed." Some people can't help but always be busy, and find things to add to their list. I just see it as pointless to make a big deal about it with the person, when I know that they probably won't change. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like people who are like that, in fact it's the opposite. But as much as I might like them, I also have my own needs if I'm going to give of myself, as selfish as that may seem to some. I don't know if that's being controlling, which I doubt because I'm not expecting the other person to change or arguing about it, but that's just me. I was wondering if this is an issue involving Ni "awareness."

[717495]

I guess the problem is, you're asking them politely to slow down, but they have the tendency to forget about this after a while, and you already know in your mind that you are just going to have to keep reminding them, and even take a break for a while when they don't want to slow things down. I can see the whole picture of that idea, and friends will get annoyed by it, you will get annoyed by having to ask and ask, even though you might only ask once and except them to grasp "your" image exactly (they have their own egos mind you), and having a perfect realization isn't going to happen that easily. You have to take initiative where necessary. Sometimes the best thing to do is to place your mind somewhere else for a while. Start anew with another person. Trade your thoughts around. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

I was wondering if this is an issue involving Ni "awareness."

I think the awareness comes from learning from your mistakes, not just experiencing them over again. Seeing a pattern is definitely part of it and could necessarily be attributed to Ni at times.

[Lobo]

I guess the problem is, you're asking them politely to slow down, but they have the tendency to forget about this after a while, and you already know in your mind that you are just going to have to keep reminding them, and even take a break for a while when they don't want to slow things down. I can see the whole picture of that idea, and friends will get annoyed by it, you will get annoyed by having to ask and ask, and having a perfect realization isn't going to happen that easily. You have to take initiative where necessary. Sometimes the best thing to do is to place your mind somewhere else for a while. Start anew with another person. Trade your thoughts around. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

This is exactly how I look at it, and thought process. It's like you just read my mind.

[Lobo]

I think the awareness comes from learning from your mistakes, not just experiencing them over again. Seeing a pattern is definitely part of it and could necessarily be attributed to Ni at times.

Yes, that might be true as well.

[717495]

However actually having the sense of self in worldview can probably be attributed to Ni. I say self, and only self, because of those others with their own ego, who might just surprize you with their sudden adjustments, something that got passed you and your thoughts. You build a fantasy realm with characteristics of the world around you, so patterns naturally develop and you become used to them. However real life change must occur to better apply these patterns, because not all patterns are of this world. Some lie within your imagination. Patterns like this often aren't doubled with the correct ones. They're often the only ones, and they are wrong. That's why real life change will fix them and make concrete your experiences.

[Lobo]

However actually having the sense of self in worldview can probably be attributed to Ni. I say self, and only self, because of those others with their own ego, who might just surprize you with their sudden adjustments, something that got passed you and your thoughts. You build a fantasy realm with characteristics of the world around you, so patterns naturally develop and you become used to them. However real life change must occur to better apply these patterns, because not all patterns are of this world. Some lie within your imagination. Patterns like this often aren't doubled with the correct ones. They're often the only ones, and they are wrong. That's why real life change will fix them and make concrete your experiences.

I agree. Wouldn't this be an Ij way of thinking?

[717495]

I think this would probably be an internal field concept, because unlike IJ Ti, conceiving a concept based on an external source, the ideas are conceived internally and adjusted according to experiences that have that "lifelike" quality to them. Fi for a frozen ideal concept, Ni for a dynamic understanding concept.

[Lobo]

I think this would probably be an internal field concept, because unlike IJ Ti, conceiving a concept based on an external source, the ideas are conceived internally and adjusted according to experiences that have that "lifelike" quality to them. Fi for a frozen ideal concept, Ni for a dynamic understanding concept.

Hmmm, I don't know about Fi being a frozen ideal concept... I believe that it changes depending on what is observed.

[Bardia]

I think I get what you are saying but correct me if I am wrong...

Also I can't help but feel this is more Fi related than Ni related.

You say you don't like being put "on the backburner" and I can definitely relate to this. To me I don't mind someone not spending time with me when we are not close. I think it essentially comes down to the Fi bonds. If I am not close to a person I have less expectations of that person; however when I am close to a person I think I have unrealistic expectations of that person to be perfect and always understand how their actions effect me(I think this might be related to the patterns of thinking that polikujm mentioned). I also expect our relationship to either grow stronger or stay the same, never regressing. I know these are stupid ways of thinking that only get me hurt in the long run but I haven't really learned how to alter them. It is just kind of how I see the world.

Now an example...
I have an SEE friend a we would hang out every once in a while and it was cool. I didn't really have any expectations for the friendship and when we hung out it was great and when we didn't I did not care. Eventually, we started hanging out a lot more and friendship grew closer. We also went on a trip with some other friends and that further developed our friendship. Then all of the sudden we stopped hanging out. I was left thinking what happened? What went wrong? I was hurt and I didn't like that feeling (lol). I couldn't really figure out how to express it because I didn't want to come off as overly emotional and I didn't know if he would get it. So for a while when I would run into him I would be purposefully cold or not say anything to him. Unfortunately either he is really dumb or very conflict avoidant (i think it is the latter) and he never said anything about it. I finally decided to just sit down and talk to him and tell him why I was angry. He apologized a lot said he was busy with a friend visiting blah blah blah this is how I am. I wasn't really satisfied but just decided to move along. He did a little bit better about not blowing me off but then reverted back. I was again angry and determined not to talk to him again (I absolutely hate having to sit down and tell someone that they hurt me). So for 2 weeks I didn't contact him lol. I would be pleasant when I saw him but not really talk too much. For whatever reason one day I felt really angry and decided to tell him off (problems with reltations are ever present in my mind and I always seem to have to talk to people to resolve conflict with them). Unfortunately my plan of yelling at him a lot failed and I talked calmly but definitely came acrossed annoyed. I told him that if he was going to continue to blow me off then we were no longer going to be friends. After this conversation he did much better about not blowing me off .

I guess the moral of the story is that I don't like when my close friends start doing things that I perceive only people who are not my good friends would do. And I find that I can't move on until I re-establish what our friendship is.

I am not really good at forming new frienships so polik's advice isnt too great for me. I prefer direct action to figure out how the other person views our friendship. I think that how people spend their time (and who with) is the best indicator of who they value the most.

I am not sure if this post was helpful to you or just a rant lol.

[717495]

Hmmm, I don't know about Fi being a frozen ideal concept... I believe that it changes depending on what is observed.

Of course. Don't you know the classifications of static and dynamic? I mean what frozen is referring to is the static frames that are analyzable within a system. It's not that it changes depending on what is observed, it is that you think about that static frame within your ethical system until a piece from the outside takes one's interest. Ni is different. One frame is not sorted into or taken from the system, because the system is how the frames move. I can not put thought into one meaning simply because if I look, the meaning of that frame is in context with all around it. There is no need to build a system when one lies in front of me. It may be sincerely personal, but that doesn't mean I am creating it from my "favorite" pieces of information, so to speak. Remember I'm talking about internal dynamic not external dynamic. So Ni does not freeze a meaning and place it into it's position like Fi. Ni is not the hunter. Ni let's it flow, because it knows it comes back.

[redbaron]

I understand what you're saying, and it's something that I've definitely considered. What's odd though is that I'm a really independent person, and in terms of "needing" other people, I don't think it's a clingy type of thing. I give people their space, and I don't like forcing someone to do something that they don't feel like doing. But I just don't like it when things feel rushed, or done just to get them out of the way, especially when it comes to things outside of work (aka relationships in general). Like, if I'm going to hang out with you, it has to be done "right," if that makes sense.

So instead, I would opt with what I mentioned of just slipping away instead of trying to make someone do things that they don't want to do. I'm very big on people living the way they want to live. Why would you say that it's scary and demanding? Or is it just a gut feeling?

Just a gut feeling, like if I sensed that you felt that way and were frustrated with me, I might feel a bit scared of you. Scared that the way I'm relating with you is "wrong" in your eyes and that I'd never live up to what you wanted so I might start avoiding you. And fwiw, I do think this is Fi>Ni.

I do agree that I don't like it when things feel rushed or done just to get out of the way. It should be enjoyable!

[Lobo]

I think I get what you are saying but correct me if I am wrong...

Also I can't help but feel this is more Fi related than Ni related.

You say you don't like being put "on the backburner" and I can definitely relate to this. To me I don't mind someone not spending time with me when we are not close. I think it essentially comes down to the Fi bonds. If I am not close to a person I have less expectations of that person; however when I am close to a person I think I have unrealistic expectations of that person to be perfect and always understand how their actions effect me(I think this might be related to the patterns of thinking that polikujm mentioned). I also expect our relationship to either grow stronger or stay the same, never regressing. I know these are stupid ways of thinking that only get me hurt in the long run but I haven't really learned how to alter them. It is just kind of how I see the world.

Now an example...
I have an SEE friend a we would hang out every once in a while and it was cool. I didn't really have any expectations for the friendship and when we hung out it was great and when we didn't I did not care. Eventually, we started hanging out a lot more and friendship grew closer. We also went on a trip with some other friends and that further developed our friendship. Then all of the sudden we stopped hanging out. I was left thinking what happened? What went wrong? I was hurt and I didn't like that feeling (lol). I couldn't really figure out how to express it because I didn't want to come off as overly emotional and I didn't know if he would get it. So for a while when I would run into him I would be purposefully cold or not say anything to him. Unfortunately either he is really dumb or very conflict avoidant (i think it is the latter) and he never said anything about it. I finally decided to just sit down and talk to him and tell him why I was angry. He apologized a lot said he was busy with a friend visiting blah blah blah this is how I am. I wasn't really satisfied but just decided to move along. He did a little bit better about not blowing me off but then reverted back. I was again angry and determined not to talk to him again (I absolutely hate having to sit down and tell someone that they hurt me). So for 2 weeks I didn't contact him lol. I would be pleasant when I saw him but not really talk too much. For whatever reason one day I felt really angry and decided to tell him off (problems with reltations are ever present in my mind and I always seem to have to talk to people to resolve conflict with them). Unfortunately my plan of yelling at him a lot failed and I talked calmly but definitely came acrossed annoyed. I told him that if he was going to continue to blow me off then we were no longer going to be friends. After this conversation he did much better about not blowing me off .

I guess the moral of the story is that I don't like when my close friends start doing things that I perceive only people who are not my good friends would do. And I find that I can't move on until I re-establish what our friendship is.

I am not really good at forming new frienships so polik's advice isnt too great for me. I prefer direct action to figure out how the other person views our friendship. I think that how people spend their time (and who with) is the best indicator of who they value the most.

I am not sure if this post was helpful to you or just a rant lol.

I agree to everything, haha. I know exactly what you mean, and I also have to resolve it in some way otherwise it's internal torture for me, which then leads to me being in a crappy mood and cold. I have to say that with experience I've gotten better at dealing with these things, especially articulating it in a way that is not making a big issue, while being effective. I often feel that I need to really control what I feel like saying, otherwise I'll make things worse and regret what I'm going to say. Relationships are my Achilles heel, which is why although I'm very friendly and actually open, there is always a wall put up.

There is one friendship I have in particular now where I'm starting to feel that I should step away, and I feel that it's because of me not being able to deal with certain things. I'd rather go quietly when it's a relatively small issue, than eventually blow up (which I just know will end up happening) and end up having hard feelings and making matters worse. I do care that much for said person.

"I think that how people spend their time (and who with) is the best indicator of who they value the most."

Yes, this is how I see it and was trying to get at. Like you said, depending on the quality of the particular bond, I don't mind how much time is allotted, etc. However, I see external things as indicators of what is going on inside.

Of course. Don't you know the classifications of static and dynamic? I mean what frozen is referring to is the static frames that are analyzable within a system. It's not that it changes depending on what is observed, it is that you think about that static frame within your ethical system until a piece from the outside takes one's interest. Ni is different. One frame is not sorted into or taken from the system, because the system is how the frames move. I can not put thought into one meaning simply because if I look, the meaning of that frame is in context with all around it. There is no need to build a system when one lies in front of me. It may be sincerely personal, but that doesn't mean I am creating it from my "favorite" pieces of information, so to speak. Remember I'm talking about internal dynamic not external dynamic. So Ni does not freeze a meaning and place it into it's position like Fi. Ni is not the hunter. Ni let's it flow, because it knows it comes back.

Oh ok, I see.

Just a gut feeling, like if I sensed that you felt that way and were frustrated with me, I might feel a bit scared of you. Scared that the way I'm relating with you is "wrong" in your eyes and that I'd never live up to what you wanted so I might start avoiding you. And fwiw, I do think this is Fi>Ni.

I do agree that I don't like it when things feel rushed or done just to get out of the way. It should be enjoyable!

Well, in this aspect I do see Fi. I would think that it's Fi as influenced by Ni, or something like that. How a relationship is affected by Ni. I would be sad if someone felt that way in turn :/.

[717495]

To what I said isn't necessarily Fi as it can also apply to Ni. It's just different how one goes about responding to the events, because Fi types are mostly trying to change the situation, not necessarily directly. Ni types are just reacting to it, waiting for time to change things, waiting for more clues.