Moment you realized your POLR was a big deal... to everyone but you.

[Emmym]

And how that changed your understanding of the world, if it did at all.

I was thinking about this earlier. I think Se being really important (my mom and dad, being ESE and ESI, both exhibited Se, but never MEAN ESE except when punishing us) did not even register with me until starting public school in the third grade (before that, I was homeschooled). There was a girl who sat by me everyday on the bus. Then, her family moved to a different house a few blocks away, and she started getting on at the stop before mine. We were almost dead last on the route, so by the time I got on, there were only two or three seats left. She convinced a few of the older kids to block them, forcing me to beg for a spot when I got on. At first, this was just annoying--by the end of the week, I remember being really depressed about it whenever the bus arrived. Our bus driver couldn't be bothered to deal with it, and finally, I mentioned it to my mom and she spoke to the girl's mother, but this only egged her on. I asked another kid, "Don't you think what she's doing is mean?" And his response was something like, "Yeah, but it's hilarious."

Eventually, I started getting up early and walking to one of the stops before hers. I still remember her name, though the idea of someone pulling anything like that with me now makes me laugh. I think the only time someone's Se really scared me in recent years was when my SEE brother was on drugs and thought I was stealing from him, and threatened to start breaking all my stuff until I gave him his drugs back, but that wasn't "normal" Se.

[yeves]

It's important only around half the people you meet. The other half can care less for it and are only glad you don't value it

How would another Se type handle this type of situation? ANyone willing to share?

[marooned]

whether my PoLR is or it would have been hit by one of my parents. i had the most issues with SLI dad > ESE mom.

i think that my PoLR showed up in office work, mainly i didn't keep up well with the long streams of little changes. i delay updating things more than most people. i can't keep track of all the things i need to constantly update. even before i became so mentally ill, i noticed this. every minor change, means changing several documents, means changing several other documents... and it is all constant. i tend to let things like that slide naturally until it comes up again and the update seems to matter more. also you must probe through emails searching for info suggesting more updates. i am slow to write processes about updates. sometimes types can oddly make all of this worse because they seem to nitpick more about accurate information and immediate alterations. so like if one thing changes even though 10 other things will be changing in the next week or two, you need to change the same list (or whatever it is) 10 times, instead of waiting to do it in a spurt. i don't stay on the ball like that usually. i don't even find half of it that important.* also in office support you end up covering for everyone else's neglect of - so like they can't learn how to find things themselves, you have to tell them every time. things move locations all the time, so you need to like always be checking in and checking in. it's this constant maintenance. when i was healthier it was easier to develop strategies, but at this point i really just can't handle it. i'm on the edge. i won't be able to stay in anything admin related or move up because it will in some ways end up being worse higher up. i never meant to stay in office support so long. i got stranded. looking for new jobs, filling out applications, so on, all of that stuff is very difficult for me. my head hurts.

in school and college everything just sort of moved me along, so it was hard to fall off track. i don't keep myself on track very well. i need to make a bunch of doctor's appointments and just the scheduling piece and having the right papers to do it is hard. before my recent med change my apartment just had piles of paper everywhere that i couldn't seem to manage. now i can force myself through it better, but my brain is still so broken that i make a bunch of mistakes. i can break down in tears because it seems there is no end to these things and it's so hard keeping all of it together. and even after you do have some success, there are then new things you have to do. there is never any end to it.

i feel the same way about chores and laundry though. just getting the detergent, clothes, and quarters together, and remembering my keys so i don't lock myself out is hard. for a while i just stopped locking the door because i couldn't focus on even 4 things at once. i'm like a dementia patient.

every day is very difficult and i can barely remember what it's like not to feel shitty all the time. i had a spattering of good days after changing meds, but things are pretty bad again. they are still better than they were. but meh.

*what i mean by that is that i know *how* to find information (though i may put off finding it nonetheless). i don't rely on like one document to do it. i also am aware of things always being in flux (dynamic type) so i tend to view things as an ongoing process which makes me not feel like so much paperwork is needed. i feel like spending time on single static snapshots in what is constantly in motion is strange. like if i see a document has things from different phases in time, i don't go asking people about it as though the information is current (i know it's a bitch to update stuff). but also though i know not everyone works that way. so i know it is both important and not important. and it doesn't change the fact that i'm having trouble keeping up - and that's all my problem.

[Exodus]

Pretty early on (at least by elementary school) I found that people expected you to submit to authority whether or not they were being reasonable or not, or just. It took a lot longer to accept this as a fact of life and try to make the best of it rather than ignoring it or rebelling against it.

i recall times when i was younger that i could not assert myself (without much anxiety) to the irritation of people around me, or my own personal frustration. e.g. when i would stubbornly refuse to seek out store clerks. it was very questionable to my mother... and in her mind, it must've meant that i needed "nudging", so she would forcibly make me talk to them.

one exemplary moment i recall is when i was visiting my uncle's house with my mother & grandmother years ago. all of the adults were outside drunk, and my two scary cousins were blocking the path to the patio. i was upstairs, with nothing to do and no one to talk to, and i wanted to get the wifi password so that i could at least go online. but, as i was terrified of asserting myself, it took me ages to gather my courage and just do it. i have always had an irrational fear of drunk people that still persists to this day...

i've mostly experienced -polr as an inability to be "a bother", disrupt harmony, or to make oneself's needs known. at a restaurant i will put up with bad food and not say a word to the waiter, unless whoever i'm dining with does the same. even so, i'd feel embarrassed about it.

^^This is a very good way of describing it. Are you LII?

[Chae]

Interesting thread.

Somehow, my -polr is particularly tricky. During all sorts of occasions, people laugh at things I say and I never get why. Those things are trivial and normal to me and not hilarious whatsoever. Maybe it's nervous laughter that I earn because I'm inappropriate/ offensive, no idea. Or they interpret a humorous statement where there is none - conversely, the actual jokes I make go unnoticed.

Up to this day, I have no clue: what do others think about me? Moments when I asked for feedback got really weird in the past.
The deal is... I care about the impression I make but then again... I don't. It confuses everyone involved?

Recently, I am trying to observe body language. But my observation skills are substandard and the signals I get are unclear.

My failure to decipher the intricacies of an atmosphere make me feel emotionally deficient sometimes.


EDIT: I read up what nervous laughter is because I feel that I provoke this kind of response often. It apparently occurs during stress and anxiety to protect dignity/control. Ergo I am not awkward, but essentially fear-inducing. In other words, scary. That explains a lot but not everything.

[The Exception]

And how that changed your understanding of the world, if it did at all.

I was thinking about this earlier. I think Se being really important (my mom and dad, being ESE and ESI, both exhibited Se, but never MEAN ESE except when punishing us) did not even register with me until starting public school in the third grade (before that, I was homeschooled). There was a girl who sat by me everyday on the bus. Then, her family moved to a different house a few blocks away, and she started getting on at the stop before mine. We were almost dead last on the route, so by the time I got on, there were only two or three seats left. She convinced a few of the older kids to block them, forcing me to beg for a spot when I got on. At first, this was just annoying--by the end of the week, I remember being really depressed about it whenever the bus arrived. Our bus driver couldn't be bothered to deal with it, and finally, I mentioned it to my mom and she spoke to the girl's mother, but this only egged her on. I asked another kid, "Don't you think what she's doing is mean?" And his response was something like, "Yeah, but it's hilarious."

Eventually, I started getting up early and walking to one of the stops before hers. I still remember her name, though the idea of someone pulling anything like that with me now makes me laugh. I think the only time someone's Se really scared me in recent years was when my SEE brother was on drugs and thought I was stealing from him, and threatened to start breaking all my stuff until I gave him his drugs back, but that wasn't "normal" Se.

I remember riding the school bus as a kid and how painfully awkward it was for me to have to try to find a seat. I was secretly relieved when the bus driver eventually resorted to assigned seating. Most kids hated it, but I was secretly relieved. The kids were forced to comply and not complain. It saved me the awkwardness and humiliation from rejection.

Also I fail to see how anyone would find such an incident funny.

[The Exception]

i recall times when i was younger that i could not assert myself (without much anxiety) to the irritation of people around me, or my own personal frustration. e.g. when i would stubbornly refuse to seek out store clerks. it was very questionable to my mother... and in her mind, it must've meant that i needed "nudging", so she would forcibly make me talk to them.

one exemplary moment i recall is when i was visiting my uncle's house with my mother & grandmother years ago. all of the adults were outside drunk, and my two scary cousins were blocking the path to the patio. i was upstairs, with nothing to do and no one to talk to, and i wanted to get the wifi password so that i could at least go online. but, as i was terrified of asserting myself, it took me ages to gather my courage and just do it. i have always had an irrational fear of drunk people that still persists to this day...

i've mostly experienced -polr as an inability to be "a bother", disrupt harmony, or to make oneself's needs known. at a restaurant i will put up with bad food and not say a word to the waiter, unless whoever i'm dining with does the same. even so, i'd feel embarrassed about it.

I also have an irrational fear of drunk people. I think it's because when drunk they are not as rational, they are more unpredictable and their self-control is diminished. Who knows what they will do? It is also why I have a fear of getting drunk myself. I am afraid to lose self-control. I have also been in similar situations myself where I have been afraid to ask someone a question because they look or act scary or when I do ask, they make me feel stupid somehow. The worst is when I'm at work, and a situation comes up where I don't know how to proceed and the only person with the knowledge is a rather scary intimidating person. It's a damned if you do, and damned if you don't type of situation. I could do nothing at all and then people are angry at me for not taking responsibility. I could do it the way I see fit and against company policy and risk being chewed out by my superiors. Or I could ask how to do it and risk being made to feel like an idiot. Usually, I end up choosing the latter option but not always.

Occasionally, I will find myself avoiding certain store clerks if they look rather unapproachable or 'scary.' At a restaurant, I try to not be too much of a bother, but if it is taking an unusually long time for the food, water, or the tab to arrive, I might inquire about how much longer the wait will be or joke that it must be really busy. I am not mean about it though and try to be tactful. I have been on the other side where I'm serving customers and have to feel pressured.

If the food I receive is the wrong order or not cooked properly, I am not afraid to say so. But I will never say that I hate the food that's just plain rude. Sometimes the food is cooked and prepared properly but the style of cooking just happens to not be to my liking. It happens and it's not the cooks fault. It's the risk you take when you eat out or try a new dish. I have dined with people however that will complain about the smallest thing wrong with their food. Sometimes I wonder how these people manage to still have lots of friends.

[The Exception]

another example... when i'm babysitting, i've had difficulty putting my foot down and disciplining kids. i get along better with older kids who can understand what they did wrong and are clever enough not to do it again, but younger children who pitch a fit are terrifying!

additionally, i tend to follow the path of least resistance in my relationships. if someone gives me bad advice, i'll say thank you, but i won't follow it. i don't see any good reason to spurn well-wishers, to paraphrase an article. while chatting with someone, i might disagree with what they're saying, though i won't speak up about it (unless it's something i believe morally objectionable, then i feel it gives me "the right" to say something). if someone is making demands against me, i might acquiesce just so they'll shut up, but that doesn't mean i'll listen. typically either two examples will end with me cutting off the other person, a passive "leave me alone"...

-polr has also manifested for me as an aversion to open conflict. i cannot relax when i know someone is angry with me.

in contrast to the example i gave about restaurants earlier, my SLE father will flag down a waiter and speak his mind if he hates his food, which i find outrageous.



thank you. and no, i'm EII.

Disciplining kids is tough. Even adults can be a challenge to discipline. It's the least favorite part of my job as a librarian. I have to make sure that people obey the code of conduct- no running, loud talking, no food, etc. Even if you ask them nicely and explain the rationale some people get really upset and defensive at you.

Teenagers are the worst to discipline because so many have the attitude of "I don't have to listen to anybody!" Young kids are difficult to discipline because some are too young to know better or really understand why they shouldn't do something. With temper tantrums it's very tempting to just give in but I have learned that oftentimes you just have to be firm and hold your ground. Because if you always give in, they will be spoiled and then it just gets worse later when you do have to say "no."

Regarding bad advice, it depends. I may politely turn it down or just politely say "thanks" but not follow it. If I can follow the path of least resistance, I usually will. But if that path of least resistance will end up causing more problems later then, it's best to just nip the problem in the bud right then and there.

Like you, I cannot relax at all when people are angry at me. My instinct is to just yell back or to escape to the situation and avoid the person all together.

[The Exception]

Interesting thread.

Somehow, my -polr is particularly tricky. During all sorts of occasions, people laugh at things I say and I never get why. Those things are trivial and normal to me and not hilarious whatsoever. Maybe it's nervous laughter that I earn because I'm inappropriate/ offensive, no idea. Or they interpret a humorous statement where there is none - conversely, the actual jokes I make go unnoticed.

Up to this day, I have no clue: what do others think about me? Moments when I asked for feedback got really weird in the past.
The deal is... I care about the impression I make but then again... I don't. It confuses everyone involved?

Recently, I am trying to observe body language. But my observation skills are substandard and the signals I get are unclear.

My failure to decipher the intricacies of an atmosphere make me feel emotionally deficient sometimes.


EDIT: I read up what nervous laughter is because I feel that I provoke this kind of response often. It apparently occurs during stress and anxiety to protect dignity/control. Ergo I am not awkward, but essentially fear-inducing. In other words, scary. That explains a lot but not everything.

I can relate to some of this as well. I am always doubting what people truly think of me and if I've interpreted the signals correctly. I can usually get the overall 'gist' of an emotional atmosphere but sometimes the intricacies can pass me by.

[strangeling]

And how that changed your understanding of the world, if it did at all.

I was thinking about this earlier. I think Se being really important (my mom and dad, being ESE and ESI, both exhibited Se, but never MEAN ESE except when punishing us) did not even register with me until starting public school in the third grade (before that, I was homeschooled). There was a girl who sat by me everyday on the bus. Then, her family moved to a different house a few blocks away, and she started getting on at the stop before mine. We were almost dead last on the route, so by the time I got on, there were only two or three seats left. She convinced a few of the older kids to block them, forcing me to beg for a spot when I got on. At first, this was just annoying--by the end of the week, I remember being really depressed about it whenever the bus arrived. Our bus driver couldn't be bothered to deal with it, and finally, I mentioned it to my mom and she spoke to the girl's mother, but this only egged her on. I asked another kid, "Don't you think what she's doing is mean?" And his response was something like, "Yeah, but it's hilarious."

Eventually, I started getting up early and walking to one of the stops before hers. I still remember her name, though the idea of someone pulling anything like that with me now makes me laugh. I think the only time someone's Se really scared me in recent years was when my SEE brother was on drugs and thought I was stealing from him, and threatened to start breaking all my stuff until I gave him his drugs back, but that wasn't "normal" Se.

Not judging you, but I'm surprised you didn't get mad and push them or something. Sure, you'd probably get in trouble and a fight might happen in doing so; but since they thought it was funny to fuck with you, did you feel any anger from that? Just wondering why you didn't do anything. It sounds like you don't want to assert yourself, which is curious.

i recall times when i was younger that i could not assert myself (without much anxiety) to the irritation of people around me, or my own personal frustration. e.g. when i would stubbornly refuse to seek out store clerks. it was very questionable to my mother... and in her mind, it must've meant that i needed "nudging", so she would forcibly make me talk to them.

one exemplary moment i recall is when i was visiting my uncle's house with my mother & grandmother years ago. all of the adults were outside drunk, and my two scary cousins were blocking the path to the patio. i was upstairs, with nothing to do and no one to talk to, and i wanted to get the wifi password so that i could at least go online. but, as i was terrified of asserting myself, it took me ages to gather my courage and just do it. i have always had an irrational fear of drunk people that still persists to this day...

i've mostly experienced -polr as an inability to be "a bother", disrupt harmony, or to make oneself's needs known. at a restaurant i will put up with bad food and not say a word to the waiter, unless whoever i'm dining with does the same. even so, i'd feel embarrassed about it.

Personally, I like drunk people because they act stupid and are much easier to deal with. What is it that made your cousins scary? I didn't like talking to store clerks when I was younger either, but mostly because I'd have to explain what it is I'm looking for just so they can say they don't have it when really they don't know what it is.

Not sure what you mean by bad food, but I'm not one to freak out over food not being perfect either. It just doesn't seem worth it to me. I mean maybe the waiter thinks I'm a prick and spits in the food or something. I don't know, I just don't like the idea of being nasty to someone waiting on me, unless they deserved it for some reason. But I always pay a big tip too for that reason.



I'm not really sure what my polr is anymore. I want to say it's Si to be honest. I have a terrible sense of fine taste, aesthetics, and hospitality (p.s. don't care if this isn't considered canon socionics). But I'm not an Ej temperament or an extrovert. But I do have a sense of awkwardness when I'm supposed to directly influence people. Never liked presentations in school because I'd always get marked off for not captivating my audience with my pose and emotions. Just don't see the point in that case. I feel like Fe is so fake when it's used to manipulate, instead of relate. I can do relating and being nice and all that. But don't expect me to be a politician and play on people's emotions.

[The Exception]

also, i'm an angry crier, which looks about as ridiculous as it sounds. i'll suddenly start sobbing, and after that point it's hard for me to talk coherently. i absolutely cannot fight it... this usually happens in conjunction with getting yelled at.

I can be this way too.

the gist of -polr is an irrational reluctance and anxiety associated with asserting yourself, basically. it's much more pronounced as a kiddo when you probably don't know how to stick up for yourself yet.

that's not been my experience. easier to manipulate maybe, but the drunk people i've come into contact with were often stubborn, unreasonable, and easily distracted. some were even aggressive. alcohol lowers your inhibitions, so it's only natural that you act like a much less restrained version of yourself.

some people are bubbly and affectionate when they're drunk, others piss and moan, others get judgmental. it's like their true colors come out. in vino veritas

they were teenagers

It's strange but as a child, I was overly assertive and eager to stick up for myself until I had parents, teachers, peers tell me I asserted myself too inappropriately and thus ended up isolated and rejected by others.

Different people react differently when drunks. Some act like douchey assholes, some are just plain silly, and some just stumble and bump into things.

Being a teenager doesn't necessarily make one scary but I can see what you mean.

[chrys]

i wrote something here but then i realized i dont have se polr at this moment in time, so until next time...

[Beautiful sky]

It's important only around half the people you meet. The other half can care less for it and are only glad you don't value it

How would another Se type handle this type of situation? ANyone willing to share?

Convincing someone to be rude was just rude behavior that can come from a lot of very rude people. That person blocking could have been SLI or any other type doing it out of shits and giggles (unfortunately); obviously lacked empathy and kindness from a young age.

The person who actively decided to use others to block the seat and Emmym used Se, Emmy used Se in how she achied her goal by using her mom to get the results she wants and by the strategy she used.

This is SeFi that is being emotionally dependent on the atmosphere "At first, this was just annoying--by the end of the week, I remember being really depressed about it whenever the bus arrived."

This is why I type Emmym SEE.

The emotions that the atmosphere caused caused you, Emmym to seek someone another person to mobilize to achieve your goal, that is you went to your mom.

I would have appealed to the person's conscience. It may not have made them feel for me but at least I would have communicated my ethics that what they were doing was wrong and not nice.

When the strategy of your mom didn't work, you formulated another strategy to achieve your goal which was waking up early to get to the stop before her. You used another strategy to get back at her. How is this being an Empath?

"I still remember her name, though the idea of someone pulling anything like that with me now makes me laugh. "
It's kind of the revers of the boy who thought it was funny from your story except he was more of an antagonistic role.

"I think the only time someone's Se really scared me in recent years was when my SEE brother was on drugs and thought I was stealing from him, and threatened to start breaking all my stuff until I gave him his drugs back, but that wasn't "normal" Se."

I'm sorry about your brother

[Chae]

Some input concerning -polr, based on an observation.

My beloved ENFp friend was sitting next to me in our classes for Audience Studies as usual. We went through the texts to summarize it in front of the other students. His notes were flawless, he understood everything better than I did (you know... sometimes I feel like is ten times faster than although the latter has more depth). I merely had to explain which part was objectively the most important one, aka the way the text was structured ( right there) according to 3 main topics. It was the most obvious criterion to approach the text (headlines). He nodded but once he started presenting what we discussed to the other students, he picked out random stuff from the text and left out the determining element altogether

Later on, I realized that what he presented was something that I commented on earlier, saying "I liked these notions in the text". That's how beats

My future strategy: praise what is logically the most important

[Beautiful sky]

Yes both of you in that interaction are Se type Emmym. Basically both of you are social beings staking out territory, but one is doing it offensively and the other is doing it defensively.

I type you SEE and final

[ClownsandEntropy]

Some input concerning -polr, based on an observation.

My beloved ENFp friend was sitting next to me in our classes for Audience Studies as usual. We went through the texts to summarize it in front of the other students. His notes were flawless, he understood everything better than I did (you know... sometimes I feel like is ten times faster than although the latter has more depth). I merely had to explain which part was objectively the most important one, aka the way the text was structured ( right there) according to 3 main topics. It was the most obvious criterion to approach the text (headlines). He nodded but once he started presenting what we discussed to the other students, he picked out random stuff from the text and left out the determining element altogether

Later on, I realized that what he presented was something that I commented on earlier, saying "I liked these notions in the text". That's how beats

My future strategy: praise what is logically the most important

Yes! My ENFP friend does this too although I only now just recognised it. Before an exam she'll study lots and lots and lots of material from a wide variety of places - even material which for sure won't be on an exam and doesn't really develop an understanding of that topic. And she doesn't know how complete her knowledge is, so she just keeps studying more. But she is very fast and this has obviously worked for her in the past so she keeps doing it.

[The Exception]

that's interesting... when i was younger, i always had people tell me in school that i was too passive. i would never pick sides, i was always the one saying "why can't we all just get along?" i don't remember being assertive, except when i felt it was right for me to do so... (as a reaction to some moral transgression, -based perhaps)

it's like assertiveness was something i had to learn instead of knowing innately.



well, you see, i was a dumb kid when that trip happened, and i thought all teenagers were threatening. in hindsight they weren't so bad, just kind of cheeky, but that's not unusual.

Actually, come to think of it, I was quite passive in some ways. For example, it was difficult to just take the initiative on things when I wasn't sure what other people would think or if they would approve. But then I if someone was doing something I considered wrong or stupid, I didn't hesitate to point that out to them. So I guess you could say my assertiveness was misplaced. Either too much or too little, rarely the appropriate amount.

[Not A Communist Shill]

When I was young, I had no control whatsoever over my appearance. It was basically dictated to me by my father, in one way or another (part of this was to do with "cost" (in terms of money) and/or how things were like when he was young and/or how if it is alright for him, it's alright for me: things like the psychological cost or the social cost were incomprehensible to him).

Being bullied at school generally meant I acted weirder and "ignored" various acts against me, as though I was completely unperturbed by it (although I still had to run home to avoid getting beaten up: fortunately I was in the third fastest in the school). At primary school, of the three people who bullied me, one became a friend and another was an acquaintance via that friend. At secondary school, there was another pair who targeted me and the new friend (and others). One of those also later became a "friend" (although I never really liked him) for a year or two, the other was more of an acquaintance for several years one way or another (I don't know if he was better or worse than the other). Perhaps I always win in the end.