Motion to rename ENTps as "Alice" instead of "Don Quixote"

[Creepy-male]

Discuss.

[Creepy-Snaps]

Alice looks too well-kept to be an ILE. To other people, Don Quixote appeared to have lost his mind, from too little sleep and food and too much reading... <-- ironically I read that late one night while extremely tired and hungry.

Although they both have great imaginations, it's a fair comparison. I think in general, Alice's imagination is more understandable, a little kid with make-believe friends. (C'mon, you know you had imaginary friends when you were little... or maybe it's just me, or an ILE thing... ) Whereas Don Quixote's imaginations are harder to relate to... a grown-man on a quest for chivalry, driven by imaginations of a moral principle to help the world... to many people he just seemed out of his mind... which is how I think ILEs come across to people. Very friendly, but slightly eccentric and crazy. In Alice's 'wonderland' she is actually the most normal person around... opposite of the image of an ILE.

I haven't seen the new movie of Alice in Wonderland. Is it any good?

[Creepy-male]

*shrug* YMMV.

Burton's Alice is really ILE. Most of the first part of the film is her questioning absolutely everything in society, with the ending being her figuratively flipping the bird at The Times.

[Azeroffs]

Burton's alice is pretty clearly not a merry extrovert, imo. EIE is the only one I'd consider remotely possible.

I want to say IEI or possibly ILI.

[Marie84]

Socionics.org actually has a female description of ILE listed after Alice, but I'm not fluent with the original story enough to have an opinion on it

fwiw, I'm not a particular fan of Don Quixote being used as a benchmark for ILE; a lot of his characteristics are either out of place for the type or just too obnoxiously written to reflect anyone, it would sort of be like using Homer Simpson as a type representative IMO

But it's not like it really matters that much anyways since we tend to use the Ego Information Elements for typing in the West, unlike the Russians who seem to go by that benchmark system (i.e. Don Quixote, or "Don", instead of ILE/NeTi). I mean, it's not like anyone here asks things like, if they're Hugo or Hamlet :wink:

Burton's alice is pretty clearly not a merry extrovert, imo. EIE is the only one I'd consider remotely possible.

I want to say IEI or possibly ILI.

Interesting, why do you say so? (I'm srsly curious, since I'm not entirely sure on her type)

[Creepy-male]

What type would say "Sometimes I think of as many as six impossible things before breakfast." then, or ask "If it was considered socially acceptable to wear a codfish, would you do it"?

Alternatively I'd go for SLE, or very very very perhapsly LIE.

What makes Merry Extrovert so improbable in your mind?

[Creepy-bg]

no. doc brown.




and I am in favor of coming up with new popular culture type representatives instead of characters from old pretentious books.

[Marie84]

no. doc brown.




and I am in favor of coming up with new popular culture type representatives instead of characters from old pretentious books.

I totally support Doc Brown for ILE representative *geeky Backtothefuture fan*

[Creepy-male]

Great Scott!!

I can't tell which of the two I like more, and therefore which should be the new representative

Maybe the male representative could be Doc Brown and the female Alice?

[silverchris9]

I vote for it, purely because Don Quixote the character in the novel by Cervantes, is not ILE. The popular windmill-chasing cultural figure Don Quixote is an archetypal ILE, but the actual Don Quixote is specifically concerned with mapping an internal world (that is, the chivalric world) onto the external world. It's not about what he sees that is hidden in the external world. It's about what he sees in his internal world and "confusing" that with reality. In other words, the windmills aren't windmills and giants and ferris wheels and performances spaces and whatever else; the windmills are giants, because the windmills are giants in my mind/soul/heart/spirit. He is Ni-valuing, imo.

[Marie84]

I vote for it, purely because Don Quixote the character in the novel by Cervantes, is not ILE. The popular windmill-chasing cultural figure Don Quixote is an archetypal ILE, but the actual Don Quixote is specifically concerned with mapping an internal world (that is, the chivalric world) onto the external world. It's not about what he sees that is hidden in the external world. It's about what he sees in his internal world and "confusing" that with reality. In other words, the windmills aren't windmills and giants and ferris wheels and performances spaces and whatever else; the windmills are giants, because the windmills are giants in my mind/soul/heart/spirit. He is Ni-valuing, imo.

Yes, exactly. The loonytunes type character of the awkward jester attempting to joust a windmill could work as a comical stereotype of an ILE, but the actual Quixote is seeing his challenges from a primarily metaphorical perspective, and neither he or his reasons really work for ILE in that sense.

His conviction for chivalric duty and sacrifice is pretty much the polar opposite of ILE values; I'm inclined to agree that they're romanticized Ni/Se ideals

[Krig the Viking]

no. doc brown.




and I am in favor of coming up with new popular culture type representatives instead of characters from old pretentious books.

Agreed on both counts. We should do some kind of project on that. Take nominations for pop-culture type representatives of each type, and then make a poll and have a vote.

In fact, I'm going to do that right now.

[Creepy-bg]

Agreed on both counts. We should do some kind of project on that. Take nominations for pop-culture type representatives of each type, and then make a poll and have a vote.

In fact, I'm going to do that right now.

[1981slater]

Woooowowowowowoww

In the high school (90s, I didn't know about Socionics then) we allocated name of fictional characters to ourselves and people gave me the Doc Brown. An IEE got Marty McFly, BTW.
George McFly is LII and Biff, SLE.

[1981slater]

The Spanish journalist A. Gonzalez really looks like C. Lloyd

[Creepy-bg]

The Spanish journalist A. Gonzalez really looks like C. Lloyd

he doesn't have the same feel for me (just going off of that picture) the way that his eyes droop + his expression makes him seem like a hard-ass.

[Blaze]

donquixote and alice are both ILE's in my mind.

alice is oppositional: she confronts the so called normal world, and when she goes to an abnormal world, she is confronting that one. this is an ILE calling card: devil's advocate and challenging whatever the culture is.

the other thing about alice is how she has to find herself in all of this and choose a path as a female ILE. this story resonated with me so much; it exactly portrays what female ILE's go through, how we are different from social expectations of women, but also how we see possibilities that are out of mainstream thinking and point of view.

don quixote represents an ILE gone to seed. an ILE who has let his internal vision carry him way too far. almost an ILE who is preoccupied with his Fi polr or something.

[Creepy-male]

alice is oppositional: she confronts the so called normal world, and when she goes to an abnormal world, she is confronting that one. this is an ILE calling card: devil's advocate and challenging whatever the culture is.

I would say "defying" rather than challenging it. She more deflects any attempts to get her to conform (like the codfish quip at the start of the film) than actively seeks to reform the status quo, like "challenge" would seem to imply (to me). True to Alpha (maybe moreso the Irrational dyad) form, she's just Alice, quite apart from how society says she ought to be.

[Blaze]

I would say "defying" rather than challenging it. She more deflects any attempts to get her to conform (like the codfish quip at the start of the film) than actively seeks to reform the status quo, like "challenge" would seem to imply (to me). True to Alpha (maybe moreso the Irrational dyad) form, she's just Alice, quite apart from how society says she ought to be.

defying is a better word. she's choosing what fits for her and what doesn't.

[Azeroffs]

ILE isn't the only anti-establishment type guys.. just think e4

I don't think burton's Alice is a merry extrovert because of how she interacts with everything. Think in the beginning when shes at the party, and even when she's in wonderland. She's non-responsive, distant, and cold. And she always has that.. face.. lol.. like she's kinda angry/confused or something. Fe extroverts are typically quite emotionally-responsive to external happenings. Actually, extroverts in general.

I think she's Ni-base because she has a whimsical nature to her, very imaginative in the "in my own world" sense, and seems like a victim.

[Creepy-male]

ILE isn't the only anti-establishment type guys.. just think e4

It's not that she's anti-establishment, it's that she resists any personally illogical social expectations, wholly and utterly. This is very typical Alpha NT behaviour. If they can't make sense of it in their heads, they don't play along. (ILEs are slightly more susceptible to "What do my friends think?" than LIIs when it comes down to a Se role crunch, though.)

She's neither a rebel nor a reformer, she's an individualist and Alice.

EDIT

And E4s are "I'm my own artwork, how best can I express my unique identity?" Different again.

[Azeroffs]

It's not that she's anti-establishment, it's that she resists any personally illogical social expectations, wholly and utterly. This is very typical Alpha NT behaviour. If they can't make sense of it in their heads, they don't play along. (ILEs are slightly more susceptible to "What do my friends think?" than LIIs when it comes down to a Se role crunch, though.)

I agree that there is that tendency among alpha NTs, but they aren't the only types who tend to act that way. ILEs aren't likely to respond to them by resisting them outright, though. ILEs are almost always friendly about it. She is too willfully distant.

She's neither a rebel nor a reformer, she's an individualist and Alice.

EDIT

And E4s are "I'm my own artwork, how best can I express my unique identity?" Different again.

that's 4w3, I'm thinking more 4w5.

[Not A Communist Shill]

She could be a "serious" ILE, particularly if you consider that the Wonderland was invented by her. But if you just go by her actions in the Wonderland, she probably isn't a brilliant example of an ILE (it might serve to confuse).

[Creepy-male]

You know, other than this devolving into me sticking a moutee on and ranting about Fools! I don't really see this discussion going anywhere further.

Or alternatively me unproductively nitpicking your seemingly ever-shifting posiiiiiiiitionnnnnnnnnnnnn... nah.

[Creepy-bg]

ever shifting position

that's the best way to never have to lose an argument.

[Pa3s]

She could be a "serious" ILE

Ti subtype?

[Azeroffs]

She could be a "serious" ILE, particularly if you consider that the Wonderland was invented by her. But if you just go by her actions in the Wonderland, she probably isn't a brilliant example of an ILE (it might serve to confuse).

Perhaps... I just don't see anything that directly points to ILE. I don't see EP, Ne, alpha, Fe-HA....

[Not A Communist Shill]

Ti subtype?

I don't deal with subtypes when talking generally about a person.

Perhaps... I just don't see anything that directly points to ILE. I don't see EP, Ne, alpha, Fe-HA....

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

[Marie84]

ILE isn't the only anti-establishment type guys.. just think e4

I don't think burton's Alice is a merry extrovert because of how she interacts with everything. Think in the beginning when shes at the party, and even when she's in wonderland. She's non-responsive, distant, and cold. And she always has that.. face.. lol.. like she's kinda angry/confused or something.

you just described my mom, and I'm sure she's ILE(Ti). Some SLE's I've known fit this too, except for the confused part, it's more like cold-confidence

Fe extroverts are typically quite emotionally-responsive to external happenings. Actually, extroverts in general.

I think in the case of ILE/SLE's they're more prone to edge other people into creating Fe and than being able to participate in it rather than actually project it themselves. role types, IME, seem to have an easier time producing Fe

[Azeroffs]

you just described my mom, and I'm sure she's ILE(Ti). Some SLE's I've known fit this too, except for the confused part, it's more like cold-confidence

I think in the case of ILE/SLE's they're more prone to edge other people into creating Fe and than being able to participate in it rather than actually project it themselves. role types, IME, seem to have an easier time producing Fe

That hasn't been the case for any ExTps I know, but idk.

[Blaze]

you just described my mom, and I'm sure she's ILE(Ti). Some SLE's I've known fit this too, except for the confused part, it's more like cold-confidence



I think in the case of ILE/SLE's they're more prone to edge other people into creating Fe and than being able to participate in it rather than actually project it themselves. role types, IME, seem to have an easier time producing Fe

agree with this. she could also be a Ti sub. and yeah, we have Fe receptors that get turned on. we don't really have any Fe product to give though....only in a mirror like way from our receptor sites. lol

at the same time i see what people are saying she's a little stoic. a little matter of fact. she's not having much fun. but i think that's burton's interpretation of her. when i think of the character of Alice i kinda think ILE.

[stray]

^I'm curious what type the actress may be now..

this story resonated with me so much; it exactly portrays what female ILE's go through, how we are different from social expectations of women, but also how we see possibilities that are out of mainstream thinking and point of view.

She kind of resonated with me just as a character (not to take away what you're saying about the female angle of things). I think I might have resembled her in every car ride with my parents, or family photos, or argument, when she's sitting there and mentions the codfish (Undecided on my type atm though.. I'm just saying I understand you somewhat).

[mu4]

Don Quixote is a much better candidate for ILE then the Alice from Tim Burton's movie.

Fighting windmills is a good metaphor for what ILE's do as they work, explore and sometimes solve problems that are not even conceived by others.

Don Quixote is describe in many ways as insane, but there are many things he does in the story that although seems insane especially for the time period that he lived in, but are of the utmost decency and justice. His treatment of a mere peasant girl as his Dulcinea, and someone he can fight for. His labeling of prostitutes and other common women as princesses and virgins in order to champion them or show them respect is insane. But is it perhaps even more insane to only treat princesses and virgins with virtue?

For a person of his time, many of the things that he would champion would require a delusion and madness to proclaim or at least the appearance of it.