Creepy Fi

[DividedsGhost]

I was wondering, do you sometimes find Fi to be creepy? It seems, going outside of Jung, that Fi is most related to human relationships in socionics. But sometimes it feels like Fi can also act purely as a judgmental element of motivation or demotivation towards another human being.

It's that sense of like or dislike, given to Fi, that seems to make me feel creeped out at times. That feeling of knowing that your interaction with someone will eventually amount to them deciding whether to estrange you or not. It's an implicit test, one the Fi person might not even really be aware of when they do it, and it's so creepy to know that my value as a human being is constantly being evaluated in reference to them - to know that the acceptance within a set of standards will take primary focus over that of enjoying little or no standard and most often lead to preclusion of the latter.

And to motivate or demotivate, it requires that one essentially have a propensity to feel connected to another in a way that requires trust...some kind of trust...emotional trust...monetary trust...intellectual trust...friendship trust...something. Without a person feeling some kind of trust, it's impossible to be affected by Fi's appraise. It's ironic though because while Fi asserts trust, it also asserts that those who have lost a sense of trust are to be estranged and don't deserve any trust from Fi. The catch-22. It creeps me out.

I guess that's really what makes IEI/SEI types so interesting. They can utilize Fi better than any of the other types that don't value Fi, but feel no sense of duty to it. It's more a chore or a tool, one that they are adapt with, one they can use for a means to an ends, but something filled with emptiness in usage, something that isn't going to be fought for, and something that is also internally laughed at as a great joke and viewed as a defense of not being able to be attacked with it through 'appraise'.

/you can all complain now and act like a condescending socionics master chef

[DirectorAbbie]

Interesting post. Now how about Creepy ? "Everyone is one big happy family! I don't enjoy your company, but I'm smiling at you anyway."

[ashlesha]

this post was really interesting to me. i can relate to feeling creeped out by the idea that i'm being evaluated even though i think everyone "evaluates." (i still think its type related - like the nature of the evaluation and how its prioritized.) i think what bothers me the most though is the idea of being judged impersonally. whereas the idea of someone more "feeling me out" and emotionally evaluating seems natural and obvious (although being rejected on this sort of basis sucks more because you can't say "no you're wrong" lol).

i'm not entirely sure what you mean with the catch-22 thing?

[Korpsy Knievel]

Fe says Fi is creepy, judgmental, closed off, unresponsive, and inscrutable. WHY DON'T YOU TALK?

Fi says Fe is cheap, melodramatic, invasive, herd-minded, and insincere. WHY DON'T YOU SHUT UP?

[krieger]

its only creepy when the person projects an Fi-styled emotional internal landscape on to me and fails to realize that all these mythical inner states they image i have but am supposedly insincere about simply don't exist full stop.

[ashlesha]

its only creepy when the person projects an Fi-styled emotional internal landscape on to me and fails to realize that all these mythical inner states they image i have but am supposedly insincere about simply don't exist full stop.

what does this mean? projecting motivations on you? thinking they know your intentions better than you do?

[krieger]

yes.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

aixelsyd said it.
may god have mercy on your soul ,labcoat.may god have mercy...

[jughead]

James Lipton is fucking creepy. He is EII.

[silke]

what's unsetting about Fi for me is how lonely it feels, it's centered around oneself and whenever I try to feel what it's like I start feeling so disconnected from other human beings and so alone, now that does creep me out

[DirectorAbbie]

Fi centered around itself?

is a Venn Diagram.


is a Bubble Map.


Maybe those pictures aren't relevant enough......you get the idea, right?

[silke]

Fi centered around itself?

Maybe those pictures aren't relevant enough......you get the idea, right?

yeah I guess it is similar to bubbles - when I use Fe I feel that I am part of like a network of individuals - that big happy family you have described in your post, friends, co-workers, community, society, but trying to rely on Fi that feeling of connected-ness and one-ness is gone

[NewBorn STAR]

CREEEEEEEEEEEEEPYYYYYYYYYYYYYY




CREEEEEEPYYYY !!!


CREEEEEEEEEEEEEPYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


HAHAHAHHA FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe

[FDG]

its only creepy when the person projects an Fi-styled emotional internal landscape on to me and fails to realize that all these mythical inner states they image i have but am supposedly insincere about simply don't exist full stop.

Lol. Yeah, I even had Fi types do it to me. I mostly find it weird, not creepy. Shouting due to pent-up emotions? Wtf no, I'm just angry at you because I think you're being a dumbass. Ofc, Fe can be just as creepy when it tries to create group homogeneity about something (mostly beta Fe tho) - uniforms? Wtf?? JUST GET THE JOB DONE!

[woofwoofl]

It's probably one of those things again - users being generally a bit weirded out by loads of with an absence of , and vice-versa (maybe the reason I can't get into South Park - I never get the impression that any of the characters honestly give a damn about anyone or anything, and it seems when they do, they get relentlessly mocked for it in some way, shape, or form)... I've never taken too seriously one way or another, but if it can drive people forwards, then awesome

Fi centered around itself?

is a Venn Diagram.


is a Bubble Map.


Maybe those pictures aren't relevant enough......you get the idea, right?

Thanks! I can't speak much for myself, but much of as I know it has to do with the bonds between people and all... if the people themselves were the blue circles, then the would be the lines, which would be of varying thicknesses and lengths...

[April]

I've noticed my bothering or "creeping out" a few different types--SEI, IEI, and SLE come to mind at the moment. I can feel their discomfort with my icy stare, but I'm not even making value judgments about them. I'm pretty much always making internal assessments in response to whatever somebody says (like, "I'd approach that issue from a different angle" or "I don't feel the same way"), but that doesn't amount to me thinking, "You're a horrible person." But they just see my face and likely jump to their own conclusions. So, it's partly my fault for not externalizing my thoughts and feelings, but they share a bit of the blame too. Actually, "blame" really isn't a good way to put it. It's just an incompatibility--isn't that what Socionics tries to explain?

[jessica129]

I've noticed my bothering or "creeping out" a few different types--SEI, IEI, and SLE come to mind at the moment.

I notice that a lot with SLE's. It's such an uncomfortable relationship for me. It's so strained. I feel like I unsettle them a lot, they always seem so distrustful and and uneasy around me.

[717495]

Fe says Fi is creepy, judgmental, closed off, unresponsive, and inscrutable. WHY DON'T YOU TALK?

Fi says Fe is cheap, melodramatic, invasive, herd-minded, and insincere. WHY DON'T YOU SHUT UP?

Read alpha quadra descriptions, and see why I like being alpha so much. We're open and say what's on our mind, and don't have heavy judgments. We can just be ourselves without being scrutinized

My IEE friend has this creative side too him, but he's just not that fun. Too serious, moral, cares too much about what others think. Always feels like he's hiding something from me, when I want him to just be open and non-judgmental. I feel sorry for them sometimes. It feels awkward to me because its so secretive, even though I'm usually perceived as the awkward one by outsiders, but at least I'm cool. IEEs have this way of expressing themselves and their motives fine, but still not making their deepest judgments all that known, only to come out suddenly with a harsh criticism when you least expect. It's kind of like ILEs, we'll be having lots of fun, then all of a sudden come out of the blue with some theoretical explanation of how something works (now that we have people in the loop), then they start to walk away and that one lucky person gets left over

just feels like a chip on my shoulder when people talk about it, that I have to escape from, and find a lighter environment where we can just talk nonsense without being judged and the emotional state is positive.

[woofwoofl]

Read alpha quadra descriptions, and see why I like being alpha so much. We're open and say what's on our mind, and don't have heavy judgments. We can just be ourselves without being scrutinized

My IEE friend has this creative side too him, but he's just not that fun. Too serious, moral, cares too much about what others think. Always feels like he's hiding something from me, when I want him to just be open and non-judgmental. I feel sorry for them sometimes. It feels awkward to me because its so secretive, even though I'm usually perceived as the awkward one by outsiders, but at least I'm cool. IEEs have this way of expressing themselves fine, but still not making their judgments all that known, only to come out suddenly with a harsh criticism when you least expect. It's kind of like ILEs, we'll be having lots of fun, then all of a sudden come out of the blue with some theoretical explanation of how something works (now that we have people in the loop), then they start to walk away

The word "fun" stood out especially... ILEs generally seem to have this aura of fun and lightness about them, though I find it hard to get anything done with them (I was in a band with someone who almost definitely ILE, brilliant drummer, fun goofy bright guy, but the dude seemed all over the place, and things didn't progress and I found it infuriating and I exploded on the poor dude on the bright side, he found some kindred spirits and started making some Primus-y stuff which rules but isn't quite my kinda thing always... I'm still nervous he might feel wronged, and I can't quite connect with the dude)...

I went to a friend's house (/ axis seems right, but the T and the F look like a big mess of turtle soup to me), I wanted to go on a run outside with him, and I wanted him to get a bike so we could all feel better (he was depressed, probably needed more people and activity and sunlight to get the winter downer stuff gone), but he did a bunch of stuff on 4chan or something like that, so me and his mom cleaned the clutter out of the house and we all came to agreements on what needed to go, because there was tension in the place due to there being messiness there, and the tension and the mess had to go...

I'm SEE, which is probably even further removed from that sense of ILE fun and lightness I like having these "brothers-in-arms" kinda things with people, especially when we get something done together, be it creating a piece of music, making food, doing a DIY thing, going on a run/bike ride/swim/workout, and seeing each time turn out a little better than before... the drummer I'm with now absolutely mauls the kit when I play with him and it's awesome maybe if I bleach out my hair and get it brighter, I can fire him and everyone else up even more...

[717495]

The word "fun" stood out especially... ILEs generally seem to have this aura of fun and lightness about them, though I find it hard to get anything done with them (I was in a band with someone who almost definitely ILE, brilliant drummer, fun goofy bright guy, but the dude seemed all over the place, and things didn't progress and I found it infuriating and I exploded on the poor dude on the bright side, he found some kindred spirits and started making some Primus-y stuff which rules but isn't quite my kinda thing always... I'm still nervous he might feel wronged, and I can't quite connect with the dude)...

Sounds familiar

I would say some of them are not often so 'pumped' to express this aura due to environmental factors, but its a natural expectation: to be light, goofy, and have fun, and for ILEs ignore boundaries confessed by types. If we can find the right people and get out of a lazy slump, then it's all up-hill but is difficult for those introverted-extroverts, INTP types, the ones who really want that creative synergy with likeminded people but lack the social skill or have some kind of -crushing fear of society. The ex-vert NTP often experiences it, but appears to cope with his expressiveness.

[DividedsGhost]

i'm not entirely sure what you mean with the catch-22 thing?

It's where if the person engages the Fi person they feel uncomfortable doing so because they have to accept and try to pass the evaluation, but if they don't engage the Fi person they still feel uncomfortable because they would like to be accepted and now have no chance.

Basically, catch-22 is a lose-lose in this case. Basically, the idea of acceptance has to be thrown away or a new approach that doesn't center around Fi would need to be created to escape lose-lose, I suppose, but that's always easier said then done for a human being. There's always that huge gap between rationalizing and actualizing; why do people seem to so easily forget that? I guess it's not that they forget, but that it's one of those things you only accept if your forced to, one way or another, after putting up a failed struggle.

[DividedsGhost]

I wanted to add some things.

Fe says Fi is creepy, judgmental, closed off, unresponsive, and inscrutable. WHY DON'T YOU TALK?

Fi says Fe is cheap, melodramatic, invasive, herd-minded, and insincere. WHY DON'T YOU SHUT UP?

The thing is, even though those both aren't getting at the basic Jungian structure for the functions, I agree that both can be that way, even though I believe I'm Fe-valuing.

If someone fucks someone over, there's no reason for the fucked over person to trust the offender. That's really just logic, in my book.

I think you are magnifying the estrangement aspect. Certainly if a sense of trust is not laid out, it's going to be harder to create a sense of closeness to the person, but if the person is otherwise not really giving a strong sense of being dangerous or untrustworthy, I think the person will not be estranged, but it will take time to let that person in. Fi doesn't want to use display of emotion prematurely for the sake of those who value it who might mistake that Fe display as a sign of real friendship when they are looking for an enduring emotional tie.

Fi usually is more concerned about, after all, stable relations and those things are tested by time and by actions. It's not meant so much to be judgmental as it is being aware, often from prior experiences, that people are not all very nice and even when that's not the case, not everyone is going to click with everyone, and Fi types tend to prefer being with those they mutually click with.

To be fair, Fe creeps me out at times, too. Well, depending on how it's being used. But with Fe, an expression of like and acceptance can quickly change. I've witnessed a number of times where Fe types express their upset with another person and try to get everyone else to feel the same way. To me it seems unfair not to hear the other person's point of view and to get people to treat the other person as an equal or at least not to resort to group think and group feel, so to speak, and alienate this person who is likely not objectively better or worse than the others on a moral level than they are being made out to be. I witnessed this on a few occasions with EIEs, on both occasions, finding something strongly disagreeable about one person and expressing their feelings to a lot of people and getting people to band together and to view this person (who did nothing to them as individuals) with contempt and treat that person (who was largely ignorant of what was going on) like they were a dirty article of clothing that no one really wanted to touch.

When it was with a group of friends, I was the one who went the distance to the estranged person (from the group) to exude understanding to their situation which aroused anger in the EIE and tended to his plight and his emotions, giving him validation and kinship that no one else would give him because of the sway of the EIE (EIE and I were the only ethical types in that group, fwiw, so I was probably less inclined to be swayed by his own feelings, having a firm grasp on my own).

Fi might seem more judgmental, but if someone has reached a certain point of connection (where mutual trust and friendship has been established), what a group of people say about that person and a single accusation or an accumulation of accusations are not going to, very likely, affect that bond.

So yes, Fi might seem judgmental, but it's more for enduring bonds. I personally prefer my valued bonds to be able to withstand opposition and when the world, so to speak, turns against my friend, I would hope I would stand with my friend and that my friend would stand with me even if the world condemns us or tries to tear us apart from one another and apart from ourselves, trying to tarnish our self-respect.

/self-appointed Fi spokes-person

Thanks, that's interesting. And I don't mean to nit-pick, but isn't your description of Fi something that a healthy human is going to want, regardless of type (that's rhetorical, I have a following point)?

I guess what I'm meaning to say is that it seems for Socionics to work that it requires a polarity, or in the case of Fe/Fi, either you reach for an objective goal with passion (Fe) or draw up a set of subjective lines connecting internal passions (Fi). Fe is supposed to oppose Fi and vice versa. But what happens when Fi's internal structure understands and supports another's Fe goal? Or when a person's Fe goals resonate with the Fi internal structure that a person has so carefully built and nurtured?

I could look at two Generals leading two different armies. One uses extreme Fe to bolster the spirits of the soldiers to reach victory out of straight up zeal and expression (and with its companion of organization Ti as its baseline for acting and possible achievement). The other uses extreme Te to nurture, support, and act on the internal passionate structures of its people. The notion of the traditional versus the new seems evident.

It's easy to see the difference here, but what happens when part of that Fi internal structure is to accept some Fe as well in order to be upheld. I think Jesus would be a good example of highly developed Fi that ends up encompassing Fe, or rather understanding it to the point that it doesn't conflict with his internal Fi anymore.

The same could be said for Fe. Probably the weirdest thing to see is an SLE with an appreciation for the Fi of other people. They will have learned through experience how their Fe affected the Fi of groups in various situations. Eventually they come to understand straight-out Fe creates discontent and unhappiness. Tact and restraint, perhaps more the evolution of their Ti, is created. I guess even with the example of Jesus, you might say it was his evolution of Ne that allows him to accept Fe.

See Ti and Fi, although different, are fully capable of reaching the same judgments or conclusions, just as how Te can have the same goal as Fe. I'd wager that out of all the functions, the perceiving functions are probably the most different.

Socionics relationships don't take human development into consideration and only seem to exist in the extreme. I think this is the problem I have with it.

It's just an incompatibility--isn't that what Socionics tries to explain?

I guess so.

Fi centered around itself?

is a Venn Diagram.


is a Bubble Map.


Maybe those pictures aren't relevant enough......you get the idea, right?

Thanks for the thought, but this is what I just don't understand at all. The Fe just sounds like Ti, and the Fi sounds just like subconscious thought. Is that really supposed to be Fi in the extreme?

[krieger]

polarity = F.

T is distinction without polarity.

i realized this a while ago. a real eye opener.

[blankblank]

I was wondering if this was Fe-related or not.

With the IEI, SLE, and ESE I knew, they all had one thing in common: running away from their problems. They never wanted to talk about anything serious. (For example, the ESE was very homophobic, and I tried to explain to her what homosexuals are about, but she never wanted to talk about it. It sucks to know your supposed "friend" would leave you in a second if they knew who you really were.) When fights came up between us, I would be completely ready and willing to talk to them so we could work through our problems, but they either didn't speak to me or demote our status to awkward acquaintances but never talk about the issues between us. It really hurt because the only way I could have gotten over the scars they gave me while we were friends was by asking them questions to understand them. Instead, they left me and let me bleed.

Is this typical of unhealthy Fe?

[golden]

I was wondering if this was Fe-related or not.

With the IEI, SLE, and ESE I knew, they all had one thing in common: running away from their problems. They never wanted to talk about anything serious. When fights came up between us, I would be completely ready and willing to talk to them so we could work through our problems, but they either didn't speak to me or demote our status to awkward acquaintances but never talk about the issues between us. It really hurt because the only way I could have gotten over the scars they gave me while we were friends was by asking them questions to understand them. Instead, they left me and let me bleed.

Is this typical of unhealthy Fe?

I think it could be unhealthy F of either kind and plain old immaturity.

[blankblank]

what's unsetting about Fi for me is how lonely it feels, it's centered around oneself and whenever I try to feel what it's like I start feeling so disconnected from other human beings and so alone, now that does creep me out

??? Fi is all about being emotionally connected to human beings. Isn't Ni supposed to be about not being connected to the world?

[blankblank]

I can feel their discomfort with my icy stare, but I'm not even making value judgments about them. I'm pretty much always making internal assessments in response to whatever somebody says (like, "I'd approach that issue from a different angle" or "I don't feel the same way"), but that doesn't amount to me thinking, "You're a horrible person." But they just see my face and likely jump to their own conclusions.

LOL.

I'll have to watch out for that in myself in the future.

[krieger]

INFjs don't stand out to me as types with "icy stares" and faces.

[blankblank]

INFjs don't stand out to me as types with "icy stares" and faces.

Perhaps all the EIIs you've met were MBTI INFPs. Being a feeler who comes off as cold or intense is an MBTI INFJ thing.

[silke]

??? Fi is all about being emotionally connected to human beings.

that connection is inflected through the self though, notice how in original post it says: "It's that sense of like or dislike, given to Fi, that seems to make me feel creeped out at times. That feeling of knowing that your interaction with someone will eventually amount to them deciding whether to estrange you or not."

Isn't Ni supposed to be about not being connected to the world?

no, that applies to any introverted function not just Ni

[EyeSeeCold]

Okay, first of all, OP, was Evaluatory vs Situational taken into consideration?

Gamma Ps and Delta Ps go along with people and situations until they are negatively affected by something which they then develop an attitude towards. This means you're cool until you mess up, bigtime(of course, the IPs being more passive and EPs more aggressive). But even then, the negative attitude might subside over time, although it may take a while(or it might not ever happen) for ILIs and SLIs to be on good terms with someone again, especially ILI. The judgments they make are situational and were justified, in their eyes, at that moment, but to valuing Rationals, the Irrationals may seem too rash and vindictive.

With Gamma Js and Delta Js, they're kind of keeping score which is what I think you meant by "creepy Fi". While the EJs are more likely to speak up immediately when you violate their standards, the IJs will silently or passive aggressively let you know. The advantage of keeping score is that a more inclusive picture of a person is captured and so a punishment is justified, in their eyes. Also, they have an easier time forgiving people because they might know that the offender is not always offensive, that it was something temporary.

Perhaps all the EIIs you've met were MBTI INFPs. Being a feeler who comes off as cold or intense is an MBTI INFJ thing.

INFjs definitely have that stereotype but they are also / valuing. Imaginativeness is the other side.

??? Fi is all about being emotionally connected to human beings. Isn't Ni supposed to be about not being connected to the world?

is still Introverted Judgment. It's about self-definition, and it is a selfish element. The home base of the web of attachments that is is a lonely place where the Self looks out upon it's many bonds, but, truly, there is still only the Self. For INFjs and ISFjs, consider them on a mission to find someone(or something) with which they can enter a unity, the closest and strongest attachment possible in that web, and finally end the loneliness.

[blankblank]

that connection is inflected through the self though, notice how in original post it says: "It's that sense of like or dislike, given to Fi, that seems to make me feel creeped out at times. That feeling of knowing that your interaction with someone will eventually amount to them deciding whether to estrange you or not."

Ah. Well, it may seem lonely to an outside observer, but it doesn't feel lonely because it's centered around people. In fact, it feels too people-centered a lot of the time. Or perhaps that's MBTI Fe.

no, that applies to any introverted function not just Ni

Ni-doms are more "out there" than other types, though.

[blankblank]

is still Introverted Judgment. It's about self-definition, and it is a selfish element. The home base of the web of attachments that is is a lonely place where the Self looks out upon it's many bonds, but, truly, there is still only the Self. For INFjs and ISFjs, consider them on a mission to find someone(or something) with which they can enter a unity, the closest and strongest attachment possible in that web, and finally end the loneliness.

You make me feel like I should pity myself for some reason.

[EyeSeeCold]

You make me feel like I should pity myself for some reason.

Anyway, for Creepy Fi, I think the relevancy is as follows:
Base > valuing Rationals > valuing Irrationals > All other types

[silke]

Ah. Well, it may seem lonely to an outside observer, but it doesn't feel lonely because it's centered around people. In fact, it feels too people-centered a lot of the time. Or perhaps that's MBTI Fe.

Ni-doms are more "out there" than other types, though.

oh I'm sure it feels perfectly normal to those for whom Fi is a native element, just not for me, in addition since it is my demonstrative I can only hope to approximate it but never fully feel what it's like ... Fe is centered around other people, in pure unbalanced form it lead to idealization of others, so may be you are talking about Fe

[DividedsGhost]

Okay, first of all, OP, was Evaluatory vs Situational taken into consideration?

This was created with evaluatory in mind if by evaluatory you mean EJs and IJs that value Fi.

With Gamma Js and Delta Js, they're kind of keeping score which is what I think you meant by "creepy Fi". While the EJs are more likely to speak up immediately when you violate their standards, the IJs will silently or passive aggressively let you know. The advantage of keeping score is that a more inclusive picture of a person is captured and so a punishment is justified, in their eyes. Also, they have an easier time forgiving people because they might know that the offender is not always offensive, that it was something temporary.

Yeah, this is basically what I was talking about. It's nice that they can be forgiving, but always being evaluated just feels "uncomfortable". But I guess this actually has something to do with my type?

[EyeSeeCold]

This was created with evaluatory in mind if by evaluatory you mean EJs and IJs that value Fi.

Alright.

Yeah, this is basically what I was talking about. It's nice that they can be forgiving, but always being evaluated just feels "uncomfortable". But I guess this actually has something to do with my type?

I think it's more that you're self-conscious, that you feel creep'd out. But yeah Expecting and getting , is also something I would consider relevant.

I think the real creepiness is accepting someone's negative behavior over time rather than exploding right when something happens. This goes on with all valuers and I see it in myself. I respect in this regard, because Delta quadra is highly liable to internalize negative feelings for years(or a respectively great amount of time) and then one day out of nowhere overreact drastically to a small issue. I know what kinds of actions can result from that kind of long-held repression, being dominant myself, and so even though I'm valuing, I'd rather you'd speak up if you really and truly don't like someone's behavior, something I attribute to .

[EyeSeeCold]

Damnit Ashton, I know my posts are sexy, but public masturbation is just not right man. Think of the kiddies.

[blankblank]

Fe is centered around other people

Alright. Fi is centered around the self. But that doesn't mean Fi-users care more about themselves than Fe-users do. (I'm not saying you said that, I'm trying to figure this out for myself.)

in pure unbalanced form it lead to idealization of others

Well, I don't relate to that. I can see this in the rather unhealthy ESE I know. Very trusting of others. Can't seem to grasp that cruelty really exists...in everyone.

[blankblank]

I respect in this regard, because Delta quadra is highly liable to internalize negative feelings for years(or a respectively great amount of time) and then one day out of nowhere overreact drastically to a small issue.