Black Swan

[Galen]

Saw the movie twice. It's amazing, I want all of my friends to see it.


Nina is a definite E1, probably some kind of Ij. INFj possibly maybe? It's kinda hard to type fictional characters when they're being portrayed by real people though, because the real person tends to play a big part in shaping the character.

Lily is um, beta irrational? Mila Kunis strikes me as INFp at least. I was actually legitimately surprised to see Kunis cast for this role, I've never seen her do a serious performance and she did a great job imo.

I agree with Thomas as Beta. Can't decide between ENFj and ISTj though.

Nina's mom's character wasn't all that developed, so it's hard to get a clear read on her. EXFj seems kinda clear though, just in terms of her energy.

[Galen]

Nina seemed to be internally bugged by Lilly. She seemed to really resent her pushy overzealous behavior, and by the end it became some kind of freaky paranoid obsession of hers. This is another indicator that leads me to believe Nina has a PoLR, while seems to be Lily's stronger point.

Hmm, I interpreted it more as Nina's own neuroses creating the idea of Lily as the bad guy when she didn't want to blame herself for her own faults. From what I remember, she only started to truly resent Lily after she became Nina's understudy. Nina's ensuing emotional turmoil was then built upon by the fact that she feared being replaced, that she wasn't good enough to do the part, and thus she created Lily as the enemy when she was really just another person getting caught up in it all.

EDIT: On reflection, Mila Kunis could be Si-ISFp maybe?

[Marie84]

Lily as SEE stuck out to me the most, the others seemed a bit harder to figure out but I'm not against a mentally and emotionally messed-up EII-N for Nina with lots of being enforced on her

[Beautiful sky]

Nina - ESI
Lily - SEI
Nina's mom - SEE
The dance coordinator guy - LIE

[Beautiful sky]

She's not an EII because she doesn't have low will, she pushes herself towards Se type of production/perfection with Gamma qualities. I don't care about that level of perfection as I value human qualities and not materialism to be important. I would dance, but have fun doing it, not to achieve some vision of perfection. I would learn the steps well, but not perfectly. the energy and dedication and work she puts into it is only characteristics of someone who overlooks Ne (things that are not material) for expansion of energy (Se).

[Creepy-male]

I want to see this, look creepy, psychologically interesting...

its pretty much some girl takes on this role as the "black swan" and she's this nice shy girl that has trouble at her art, and eventually she starts to become perfectionistic about it, and become meaner and paranoid of the other dancers, and thus in a way fits the role of the "black swan" in real life.

Btw I got this all from the trailer, I haven't seen the movie, so don't quote me with specifics.

Se-PoLR is probably fitting, but remember its a movie about a girl with problems and not just a typical INFj or whatever. It's like using ****** as an archetype for ENFj's or whatever type he is (and he has to be one type).

basically to get to the point, Se-PoLR is a good typing imo from the trailer, but that doesn't mean people with Se-PoLR are destined to act exactly like this character portrayed in the movie. I think the paranoia and psychologically disturbing aspects of her character come from neurosis' and not a particular typing, now given those neurosis', her type is probably Se-PoLR -- because face it certain types have a higher risk of different neurosis' -- an ISFj stands a higher chance to be borderline and needy, while an INTj stands a very little chance to be this, much more likely being schizophrenic, although normal ISFjs and INTjs are really neither.

Hopefully I'll give you my assessment when I see the movie, it took me like 6 months to see inception, so it may be a while lol

[glam]

i agree with Nina as EII, Thomas as Beta ST, Lily as SXE (and Mila Kunis being SEI/Alpha SF)

It's interesting to see how much she struggles & develops internal conflicts mostly centered around her Se PoLR throughout the movie

yeah, definitely. i think her character is a good example of someone becoming "unhealthy" because of issues with their PoLR.

from http://www.socionika.com/blocks.html about the Super-ego block:

"zone of self-criticism, self-doubt, guilt, and self-perfection"... "failure, incompetence, and oversensitivity cause low self-esteem, complexes, and psychosomatic disorders"

^ sounds just like Nina.

[olduser]

this movie contains just about every cliched misogynst character in the book. Don't do drugs and have sex ladies, you'll fucking die.

[Galen]

this movie contains just about every cliched misogynst character in the book. Don't do drugs and have sex ladies, you'll fucking die.

My dad and brother said that the Thomas character wasn't nearly as asshole-ish as he could be. They were waiting for him to "turn into the bad guy" or something. No idea what movie they were seeing.

[Bardia]

My dad and brother said that the Thomas character wasn't nearly as asshole-ish as he could be. They were waiting for him to "turn into the bad guy" or something. No idea what movie they were seeing.

I don't know what they were expecting but I kept thinking he was going to try to make her have sex with him.

I thought the movie was really good minus the sexual scenes that were kind of akward. It was really crazy and had you guessing what was real and not even at the end. I kind of wanted a little more revelation at the end but whatever.

I'm pretty sure Nina is EII. I would guess Lily is SEE probably, but it is hard to tell because we don't really know what parts of Lily's interactions with Nina are real and which aren't. We can assume but we don't really know. The mom seems like some sort of XSXj. Thomas is some sort of beta I think.

[redbaron]

I just saw this movie and agree with Starfall's typing guesses.

I also wanted to say that while the movie is very well done, it wasn't enjoyable for me to watch. She was SO TENSE through the entire thing. It made ME tense. You could always hear her breathing too which made me even more tense. Too many close-ups. And all that skin/body stuff made me SQUIRM.

I also have a hard time seeing Natalie Portman as anyone but Queen Amadala since my kids are obsessed with Star Wars and we've watched those movies so much. lol! She's beautiful but there's something I really don't like about her.

I wouldn't see it again. The film makers did a good job of blurring the lines between what was real and what was in her head--giving the viewers a similar experience watching the film, to what Nina had living it. An interesting concept that I'm not against but hey, I don't feel like being a crazy perfectionist today.

[DividedsGhost]

this movie contains just about every cliched misogynst character in the book. Don't do drugs and have sex ladies, you'll fucking die.

misogyny - hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women

So um...really? How so? I didn't get that impression at all, but I doubt I'm as culturally aware about this sort of thing since I don't care much for it.

[Bardia]

misogyny - hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women

So um...really? How so? I didn't get that impression at all, but I doubt I'm as culturally aware about this sort of thing since I don't care much for it.

Yea I didn't really see that either. I mean the Thomas is just trying to help her dance better, she doesn't even have sex with lily, it's all in her head. It's about going crazy over being perfect.

[jason_m]

Nina - Delta NF - for reasons that are quite intuitive (perhaps IEE).

EDIT: EII might be better, given her relation with Thomas - SEE I think with maybe some chance of SLE or EIE.

Lily - EIE. Why EIE over SEE? EIE makes more sense, given that Lily is quite merry and Se-valuing. (I can't see a sour ILI warming up to the cheerful Lily. I also can't help but wonder if the socionics has gone down the drain here a little bit - or maybe just diverged from both my and traditional socionics ideas. My estimation is that the merry/serious dichotomy is one of the key dichotomies for distinguishing Fe-leading. I keep noticing that people who are typed here as ESE specifically, seem very serious and perhaps traditional, and the people typed as SEE are often quite merry, which is counterintuitive to me. See: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=34180 and http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=34136 as examples.)

[Satan]

I wouldn't see it again. The film makers did a good job of blurring the lines between what was real and what was in her head--giving the viewers a similar experience watching the film, to what Nina had living it. An interesting concept that I'm not against but hey, I don't feel like being a crazy perfectionist today.

maybe u shouldn't take up ballet then

[redbaron]

maybe u shouldn't take up ballet then

that's for sure true!

[DividedsGhost]

Well, everyone seems to be set on EII for Nina.

I see her as an SEI that developed a neurosis for her unconscious SEE alter-ego and the whole film representing this struggle and her way of dealing with it through Lily. It's always Lily that's going to keep her from achieving anything; it's Lily that she imagines having sex with; and it's Lily that she has to kill to overcome. It's almost uncanny to see it this way.

[Jarno]

That director Thomas is INFJ and that girl with the swan tattoo on her back (Lilly?) is ENFJ.

Do you have any ideas about the main character?

[Jarno]

Lily - EIE.

thank you.

She is indeed. VI perfectly as a EIE-Fe

People think she's SEE because she is the party girl. That's just her roll, not her type.

[marooned]

I agree completely with Nina as EII.

I think though that I saw Lily as some sort of Beta type, maybe EIE or something.

I saw Nina's mother as Fe leading, probably EIE.

As for Thomas, I don't know, I thought he was Se quadra but for some reason SLE doesn't bode well in my mind. I mean I could see him as Beta easily, but anyway.

I thought that Nina was struggling with both Se and Fe and tended to be bombarded with both. She couldn't get into the passionate dark nature of the black swan and all she could easily exude was the white swan because she already is like the white swan as a person, so she was just being herself. The only way she could become the black swan was to make it real in her own life, so her mind made her live through actually turning into (or being over-ridden by the foreign element of) the black swan as a person (not simply acting it). So it's like she converted everything she was supposed to portray to become part of her inner personal world and experience so that she was living it, then all she would have to do to portray it would be to be herself (or fall to this dark creature she created inside of herself). And what drove this was how badly she wanted to be able to succeed and how she couldn't seem to loosen up or surpass her own timidness (couldn't "let go"). She was trying to push herself to become something that was completely foreign to herself. Anyway that's my working interpretation.

I could see Beth as possibly SEE-ish.

[Beautiful sky]

She has too much internal energy and drive to be EII; she's ESI

You never see her passing out on the couch from near exhaustion like I've often been found to do after a bit of exertion.

[glam]

She has too much internal energy and drive to be EII; she's ESI

You never see her passing out on the couch from near exhaustion like I've often been found to do after a bit of exertion.

with Nina i don't think that it's so much that she has a lot of "internal energy and drive" as you put it, it's more that she is a conscientious perfectionist. she just wants to be the absolute best she can possibly be at what she does, and works very diligently and consistently to do accomplish it.

also i think EIIs can exhaust themselves, from overworking because they can be pretty particular about getting things done properly, and have a hard time gauging when enough is enough.

[marooned]

I would add that Nina was exhausted far more than she realized, emotionally spent to the max and point of neurosis, constantly overwrought, overly stressed out and unable to calm herself down, anxious, afraid, having constant delusions/paranoia regarding parts of her body bleeding, being torn off or somehow otherwise screwed up, was unable to even be aware she had stabbed herself with a piece of glass and didn't even feel it, was losing weight and throwing up all the time because she was so stressed out and couldn't calm down, etc. She meets just about all the extreme stereotypes regarding intuitives (or at least Ne types) and lack of physical awareness or ability to tend to their own physical needs imo. She basically poured her all into her role as the Swan Queen until there was nothing left, while being rather unaware of how much of a toll it was taking.

[crazedrat]

this movie contains just about every cliched misogynst character in the book. Don't do drugs and have sex ladies, you'll fucking die.

Cliches are a product of society. The movie is about what society considers 'good' or 'bad'. So naturally it deals with cliches. Hence the white swan vs. the black swan. That's kinda the whole point of the movie, jackass.

[Beautiful sky]

with Nina i don't think that it's so much that she has a lot of "internal energy and drive" as you put it, it's more that she is a conscientious perfectionist. she just wants to be the absolute best she can possibly be at what she does, and works very diligently and consistently to do accomplish it.

also i think EIIs can exhaust themselves, from overworking because they can be pretty particular about getting things done properly, and have a hard time gauging when enough is enough.

That doesn't contradict ESI typing. Oh I know that I can over work easily but I need directed that's structured not like Nina's "let's do it again" drive; How she goes up to her teacher with makeup on suggests Se-pressure/manipulation/sexual motivation, with Fi; no not me. I won't do that. Because she evaluates her co-dancer's intentions as they are rather than as they could be, that also indicates Se, when she says that "she's after my role"; she didn't even consider the possibilities of any other motivation.

[Sir Knight]

That doesn't contradict ESI typing. Oh I know that I can over work easily but I need directed that's structured not like Nina's "let's do it again" drive; How she goes up to her teacher with makeup on suggests Se-pressure/manipulation/sexual motivation, with Fi; no not me. I won't do that. Because she evaluates her co-dancer's intentions as they are rather than as they could be, that also indicates Se, when she says that "she's after my role"; she didn't even consider the possibilities of any other motivation.

But you're forgetting the scene where she just about walks out of the room when Thomas tells her she can't have the part. Weak, weak Se. All it took was for him to say "No" and she gave up all intention of fighting him for the role. If he hadn't stopped her and asked her why she even came in the first place, she might have just let it go.

[Beautiful sky]

But you're forgetting the scene where she just about walks out of the room when Thomas tells her she can't have the part. Weak, weak Se. All it took was for him to say "No" and she gave up all intention of fighting him for the role. If he hadn't stopped her and asked her why she even came in the first place, she might have just let it go.

Or better yet, Fi, sensitive emotions or against one's own subjective interpretation and feelings for their work. Se is better manifested by unawareness of surroundings by objective nature or better inability to seek activities...external physical activities. She wasn't very passive and waiting for things to happen when she stepped into his office with makeup on. The motive for manipulation is still there, whether by morals she decided to accept the kiss or not.

[Sir Knight]

Or better yet, Fi, sensitive emotions or against one's own subjective interpretation and feelings for their work. Se is better manifested by unawareness of surroundings by objective nature or better inability to seek activities...external physical activities. She wasn't very passive and waiting for things to happen when she stepped into his office with makeup on. The motive for manipulation is still there, whether by morals she decided to accept the kiss or not.

Se, especially weak Se, also tends to manifest as a difficulty manifesting one's desires against the opposing desires of others. Also compare the scene where the mother buys the cake and threatens to throw it in the trash when Nina says she's too wound up to eat it (which, if I'm not wrong, sounds like Si-seeking) and so rather than just laugh it off and tell her mother to stop being ridiculous, she apologizes and asks her to stop and takes a little fingerful just to make her mother happy.

Contrast that to Lily and her strong Se, who has no problem going and bitching out Thomas when Nina appears just when Lily was getting ready to take over her part.

[Beautiful sky]

Se, especially weak Se, also tends to manifest as a difficulty manifesting one's desires against the opposing desires of others. Also compare the scene where the mother buys the cake and threatens to throw it in the trash when Nina says she's too wound up to eat it (which, if I'm not wrong, sounds like Si-seeking) and so rather than just laugh it off and tell her mother to stop being ridiculous, she apologizes and asks her to stop and takes a little fingerful just to make her mother happy.

Contrast that to Lily and her strong Se, who has no problem going and bitching out Thomas when Nina appears just when Lily was getting ready to take over her part.

All Fi Bases will bend over backwards to make people happy...anything to maintain and keep those bonds close. So that's not a good indication of her typing as EII, but one thing that can be argued is weak Se in manifest of difficulty getting/pushing for one's desires against the opposite desires of others. This though in the case of EII will just make her give up and go home or stand at the sideline, not in Nina's case it doesn't. She's almost driven by a desire, her internal energy increases. She has stronger determination.

[Beautiful sky]

Do you see how I'm a tactical thinker?
You're doing really well right by me

[Sir Knight]

All Fi Bases will bend over backwards to make people happy...anything to maintain and keep those bonds close. So that's not a good indication of her typing as EII, but one thing that can be argued is weak Se in manifest of difficulty getting/pushing for one's desires against the opposite desires of others. This though in the case of EII will just make her give up and go home or stand at the sideline, not in Nina's case it doesn't. She's almost driven by a desire, her internal energy increases. She has stronger determination.

What you're saying and what I'm saying don't cancel one another out. She has strong Fi and weak Se. She wants to keep her mother happy but has a difficult time being anything more than "Mommy's little girl" until when she brings "Lily" home.

Besides, going home and standing by the sideline and getting a ensemble part was what Nina was going to do in the office scene. It was only Thomas saying, "What, really? That's it? You must have thought you could convince me." that gives her reason to stay and keep working towards the part.

Besides, as far as being driven by a desire, who, regardless of type, isn't driven to excel in their chosen field? No one wants to be a mediocre painter or engineer... or ballerina.

[Beautiful sky]

What you're saying and what I'm saying don't cancel one another out. She has strong Fi and weak Se. She wants to keep her mother happy but has a difficult time being anything more than "Mommy's little girl" until when she brings "Lily" home.

Besides, going home and standing by the sideline and getting a ensemble part was what Nina was going to do in the office scene. It was only Thomas saying, "What, really? That's it? You must have thought you could convince me." that gives her reason to stay and keep working towards the part.

Besides, as far as being driven by a desire, who, regardless of type, isn't driven to excel in their chosen field? No one wants to be a mediocre painter or engineer... or ballerina.

I'm saying that she doesn't have weak Se...she has strong Se, but making herself look weak to you.

[Sir Knight]

I'm saying that she doesn't have weak Se...she has strong Se, but making herself look weak to you.

If that were the case, why? Sure appearing weak could be a manipulation tactic to achieve one's desires, but we constantly see Nina when she isn't interacting with others, and she's still weak. And even leaving that aside, why would a Se type be taking such passive measures to achieve their goals? If she were Se-creative then she would be far more direct.

When she wanted the part she'd have negotiated and prodded Thomas to get it. When he mother wanted to throw the cake out she'd have told her to stop being ridiculous. When she walked in on Lily and Thomas having sex she would have asked them just what the hell they thought they were doing rather than running away in tears. When she accidentally fell in the first act, she'd have owned it and apologized rather than trying to blame the dancer holding her up.

That she didn't do any of these things just points to weak Se.

[redbaron]

you make some very good points there about her lack of Se. I tend to agree. But I also know an ESI who hesitates a lot in areas she's not comfortable in and she also has low self-esteem so to some extent, it depends.

[Sir Knight]

you make some very good points there about her lack of Se. I tend to agree. But I also know an ESI who hesitates a lot in areas she's not comfortable in and she also has low self-esteem so to some extent, it depends.

Couldn't that point to just rationality in general? Irrationals supposedly handle new, shifting environments better than irrationals, who find an easier time handling stable, constant environments, right?

And, well, self-esteem and the highness or lowness thereof couldn't really be said to be type-related. I mean, doesn't everyone doubt themselves once in a while?

[redbaron]

Couldn't that point to just rationality in general? Irrationals supposedly handle new, shifting environments better than irrationals, who find an easier time handling stable, constant environments, right?

And, well, self-esteem and the highness or lowness thereof couldn't really be said to be type-related. I mean, doesn't everyone doubt themselves once in a while?

yes, absolutely.

[Beautiful sky]

If that were the case, why? Sure appearing weak could be a manipulation tactic to achieve one's desires, but we constantly see Nina when she isn't interacting with others, and she's still weak. And even leaving that aside, why would a Se type be taking such passive measures to achieve their goals? If she were Se-creative then she would be far more direct.

When she wanted the part she'd have negotiated and prodded Thomas to get it. When he mother wanted to throw the cake out she'd have told her to stop being ridiculous. When she walked in on Lily and Thomas having sex she would have asked them just what the hell they thought they were doing rather than running away in tears. When she accidentally fell in the first act, she'd have owned it and apologized rather than trying to blame the dancer holding her up.

That she didn't do any of these things just points to weak Se.

Do you think that strong Se types are going to say they are manipulating you? No. It's in action, in words, in sentiments and in motivations. I'm saying that there's no way on God's green earth an EII will put on lipstick and go to her "authority's" office and seduce them for the part and no way that an EII would suspect a fellow dancer of trying to take over her life and part.

[Bardia]

Do you think that strong Se types are going to say they are manipulating you? No. It's in action, in words, in sentiments and in motivations. I'm saying that there's no way on God's green earth an EII will put on lipstick and go to her "authority's" office and seduce them for the part and no way that an EII would suspect a fellow dancer of trying to take over her life and part.

As far as I remember she didn't go there to seduce him for the part but to ask him about it. Also, the suspecting a fellow dancer and all the things associated with her paranoia are probably NTR and are crazy related.

[Beautiful sky]

As far as I remember she didn't go there to seduce him for the part but to ask him about it. Also, the suspecting a fellow dancer and all the things associated with her paranoia are probably NTR and are crazy related.

She put on her idol's lipstick, in red, which she NEVER did before.

[Sir Knight]

Do you think that strong Se types are going to say they are manipulating you? No. It's in action, in words, in sentiments and in motivations. I'm saying that there's no way on God's green earth an EII will put on lipstick and go to her "authority's" office and seduce them for the part and no way that an EII would suspect a fellow dancer of trying to take over her life and part.

See, that's the thing though. I've said it multiple times already: we always see Nina, even when she's not manipulating other people. When she's alone. And when she's alone, her demeanor doesn't change appreciably. At all. She's just as neurotic and insecure alone as she is with other people.

Besides, again, why would a Se type resort to such passive methods?

As for suspecting a fellow dancer, that has Se-PoLR written all over it. She doesn't know how to properly defend "her space" from people who may have the drive and the means to take it from her, and so naturally she becomes more and more upset as Lily gets closer to a point where she could wrest the part from her. It's a fear of having to conflict with others for control. Nina likely just wants her space to be respected and doesn't know what to do when it looks like someone may not be willing to do that.