another Fe and Fi thread

[glam]

from this post:

I notice that I actually DON'T offer as readily as ego types do. The way they impose themselves on other peoples' emotions is just irritating. I'm not happy, so don't try and make me happy or even cheer me up. I would rather just talk about it maybe, not smooth it over with fake happiness. I don't like fakeness, but who does?!

My parents constantly tell me to be smile more and be more friendly because apparently I am not whenever I meet their friends, etc. I abhor it when they tell me to do that because I don't sacrifice my inner feelings to create an external mood for other people just because "it's the right thing to do" in a social situation. I think that is the clearest example of how I value - although I am very bubbly to people I like and whatnot. I am actually heavily against "faking" any kind of emotion to get by... if I feel like shit, I feel like shit and you're going to know about it because I'm not going to hide it just for the sake of keeping you happy.

this sounds very Fi > Fe, obviously.

does it?

discuss.

[marooned]

see I don't know that it does... It's not that I really understand the Fi/Fe difference though, because I don't, and I even have on and off doubts about which one I am... but that post seems to be saying she doesn't like "fakeness" or "fake emotional expression" or just emoting for the sake of emoting... And my question is: who does? Does anyone appreciate displays of fake-ness? I also hate if people tell me to smile or try to impose a state on me about how I'm supposed to be feeling according to them... I think that's very human... who would want that sort of thing imposed upon them? Meh.

[Park]

does it?

it probably does. but it's also IP temperament, and as someone with strong Fi you might have no problems identifying with it.

who would want that sort of thing imposed upon them? Meh.

IXTjs?

[marooned]

IXTjs?

So if an IXTj's having a really crappy day and they're walking down the street and they really want to be left alone... and some random stranger they pass draws their attention, with a fake smile plastered to his face, and says "Smiiiilllllllle. " ... to which the IXTj responds with a grimace... and then the stranger says "You're not smiiiilllllling! " would they appreciate it?

Actually that's a good point though... it would be interesting to hear IXTj thoughts on this whole fakeness and Fe thing.

[Markuz]

So if an IXTj's having a really crappy day and they're walking down the street and they really want to be left alone... and some random stranger they pass draws their attention, with a fake smile plastered to his face, and says "Smiiiilllllllle. " ... to which the IXTj responds with a grimace... and then the stranger says "You're not smiiiilllllling! " would they appreciate it?

Actually that's a good point though... it would be interesting to hear IXTj thoughts on this whole fakeness and Fe thing.

I suppose I would, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the smile is fake, seeing as how i'd be preoccupied with thinking about whatever happened to make my day crappy. But i've been told I have a naturally overly serious/angry expression on my face anyway, so I get random smiles all the time, most of which make me laugh.

[marooned]

This is interesting! Perhaps I need to revise my perspective. :-)

[Park]

interesting, I wasn't expecting an answer like this. I don't know what you mean, can you elaborate?

First, the part you posted seems to fit my basic understanding of Fe vs Fi as 'functions'. Secondly, I think that every IP is generally passive and somewhat phlegmatic in behavior and will refuse, or react badly to anything that is "imposed", too much "in your face", too quick and external, and appearing shallow, including emotional expression. Another thing is that Fi as a demonstrative function in the ID of IEIs is also a strong function which is permanently used in their relationships with people, plus what you said does not necessarily devalue Fe. But that's just my opinion, of course.


edit: sorry, I thought what you posted was written by you.... nonetheless, what I said still applies.

edit2: on second thought, I am extremely tired now and cannot guarantee what I said makes a lot of sense.

[snegledmaca]

I would say that Fe as it is, is not a fake display of emotions. From my experience with my mother, the fakeness is solely perceived and it comes solely when they try to impose themselves some sort of Ti structure. Like on how to deal with other people, things like common courtesy and so on, what is then seen as fake politeness. Basically what people are really seeing is crappy Ti, you need to display more positive emotions because that displays warmth and that causes people to feel accepted and better, you need to have more friends so that when you feel down you can go to them and they can make you feel better and so on. All in all their intentions are good, but they feel the need to have a Ti structure so they advise other people to do the same, to govern themselves by Ti rules, say hello to the neighbors, smile for the camera, be polite to your elders and so on. I'd also say that this is the part that is really bothering scarlettlux, the fact that these displays of Fe are a result of valuing Ti and the same valuing of Ti is expected of her.

[snegledmaca]

That makes a lot of sense.

Actually that was something nifweed brought up when explaining my interaction with my mother to me, in that my mother is all like hey, let's value Ti and I am all like fuck off with that shit.

I've got two ESFjs in my life right now. One is my brother; the other is kind of a class mate from uni. My brother is fantastic in that he never tries to apply "crappy Ti rules". We just have so much fun together. The class mate, on the other hand, occassionally has his boughts of "cheer up, you should look happy". I don't like it when he's in this mode of applying "crappy Ti". It's a real fun atmosphere killer, actually. When he does it, I just give him intense Ti back (death stare city).

I think this would fall under expat's hypothesis that people look pathetic when they over focus on their super ID.

[aestrivex]

I don't understand why people associate Fe with "fake happiness". Of course, it has its moments, but so does every other freaking function ever described. lol Fe isn't about force feeding people happiness, and it's not about sacrificing your inner mood for the atmosphere, either. Fe stems from a genuine feeling. By the way, whoever said that genuine feeling had to be good? Or bad? Or happy? Or sad? It could be anything, it could be everything. It's a feeling. There are different types of feelings.

you're missing the point completely.

[aestrivex]

Secondly, I think that every IP is generally passive and somewhat phlegmatic in behavior and will refuse, or react badly to anything that is "imposed", too much "in your face", too quick and external, and appearing shallow, including emotional expression.

disagree. possibly this is a perspective of somebody who has devalued Se and Fe, but would IEIs really be averse to "anything that is imposed" or "too much in your face."

[tcaudilllg]

As I understand it, + means subject first, then object; - means object first, then subject.

So +Fi says, "I want X (subject), but I'm not getting X (object) and because of that I'm in a crappy mood." -- am I right?
-Fi says, "I gave you X which you wanted, so now you owe me Y which I want. You're not giving me Y, so I feel cheated."

...Nevermind... we need a new forum for model-B discussion.

[aestrivex]

from this post:
does it?

discuss.

here's what i find Fi about it, and what i find of little importance:

I notice that I actually DON'T offer as readily as ego types do. The way they impose themselves on other peoples' emotions is just irritating. I'm not happy, so don't try and make me happy or even cheer me up. I would rather just talk about it maybe, not smooth it over with fake happiness. I don't like fakeness, but who does?!

to large measure this paragraph means nothing to me, because it basically takes a predefined (and perhaps not entirely accurate) vision of Fe and states that it does not apply. "not liking fakeness" is not something i'm attributing solely to Fi, nor is disliking cheering people up.

My parents constantly tell me to be smile more and be more friendly because apparently I am not whenever I meet their friends, etc. I abhor it when they tell me to do that because I don't sacrifice my inner feelings to create an external mood for other people just because "it's the right thing to do" in a social situation.

this i think is very Fi > Fe; i don't think it's universally applicable to all Fi types, but i do think that Fe types (particularly Fe dominant types) would give a greater focus on preserving the overall emotional atmosphere.

I think that is the clearest example of how I value - although I am very bubbly to people I like and whatnot.

this also seems typical of creative Fi, especially in SEEs.

I am actually heavily against "faking" any kind of emotion to get by... if I feel like shit, I feel like shit and you're going to know about it because I'm not going to hide it just for the sake of keeping you happy.

i think this may vary among Fe types; i could see more easily where an IEI or EIE would be more easily associated with freely demonstrating negative emotions than an ESE, for example. nonetheless, i think it's obvious where it could be associated with Fi types being more concerned with not compromising natural emotional state rather than the external mood; Fe types (particularly Fe dominants) that do this would have somewhat different motivations.

[aka-kitsune]

disagree. possibly this is a perspective of somebody who has devalued Se and Fe, but would IEIs really be averse to "anything that is imposed" or "too much in your face."

Yes. With a capital Y.

What makes you think IEIs would prefer things imposed and in their faces? I can't STAND anything like that. In so many social situations where I'm feeling uncomfortable, I get that crappy "Smile!" attitude from some stranger. Sometimes it's happened when I'm deep in thought about something. I can't stand the idea of someone else telling me how I should feel. If I want to smile, I will. And if I'm not in the mood, step off.

What I associate with "fake happiness": there's this woman I work with -- we used to be friends at one point, but had a falling out and since then she won't even make eye contact (this was like 5 or 6 YEARS ago). I've thought she's prob an ISTj... (def an enneagram 1w2). Anyway... she cultivates a large social network, which she's always maintaining with phone calls, busybodyness, and jokes. However, I find all of her overly loud laughing and reactions to sound 100% fake. It makes me cringe. Just sounds like she's trying way to hard to imitate genuine feeling, like coming up with an approximation. It's really painful. Complete lack of and altogether.

[tcaudilllg]

I get the impression that +Fi is mood, and mood, for that matter, is which ever of the little motive impulses (e.g. chemical types) is strongest at the moment. Thus, it also colors motive... but not directly. Rather, it seems to me that one +Fi type sees mood, and another sees motive....

Edit: +Fi before attempting to get +Te is motive (that's why you want the +Te, after all). Depending on whether or not you get the +Te you want, +Fi takes a mood. But mood is always a reaction to whether or not you get what you are wanting. (+Te)

However, I find all of her overly loud laughing and reactions to sound 100% fake. It makes me cringe. Just sounds like she's trying way to hard to imitate genuine feeling, like coming up with an approximation. It's really painful. Complete lack of and altogether.

Sounds like Hillary Clinton. Most T types in politics have that problem, it seems.

[aestrivex]

Yes. With a capital Y.

What makes you think IEIs would prefer things imposed and in their faces? I can't STAND anything like that. In so many social situations where I'm feeling uncomfortable, I get that crappy "Smile!" attitude from some stranger. Sometimes it's happened when I'm deep in thought about something. I can't stand the idea of someone else telling me how I should feel. If I want to smile, I will. And if I'm not in the mood, step off.

that's a completely different context than what winterpark seemed to be suggesting, which is that all IP types resist outside pressure. youre interpreting that as entirely related to the pressure of somebody imposing an external emotional atmosphere, which seems like something that an IEI may or may not react well to. however, in the context of external real-world pressure or social pressure -- for example, in a situation where an SLE want to do something -- i would expect an IEI to react somewhat more favorably, and, indeed, not really to perceive this as pressure at all.

[ScarlettLux]

Um, just wanted to chime in and say I didn't mean to bash on or valuers when I said all that dolphin quoted.

I know isn't about faking emotions, that's just stupid. A whole function just for faking emotions? I don't think so. But, I was just stating how I, personally, react / act in certain situations for the purpose of people typing me anew.

I think this was taken out of context ... I agree with a post that Carla had about "good" examples of - the ones about BBQ and queue chit-chat. That's definitely what I associate with as well, which is the reason why I still think I am most likely a Beta NF after much re-analysis.

Haha, I STILL don't understand creative !

I mean, I'm so confused - welcomes people (like in the BBQ example) when people are feeling out of place with happy external including emotions ... but what would valuers and in particular creatives do in the same situation? I really do not think they would be cold/unsmiling to newcomers. I know a ton of IEEs and SEEs who are plenty expressive. So what exactly is the difference?

Perhaps it's that valuers "warm up" to people a lot quicker ? I dunno, that's just a theory, and a not too great one b/c I've met both of each kind ... creatives seem really warm to me too. Or maybe creatives just take their past relationships more seriously/loyally than their new ones? Focus more on them instead of "spreading" themselves around ? But doesn't everyone do that?

*Runs around screaming in confusion*

Another thing I've always just assumed about was that just need less of any kind of emotional atmosphere, which I do think is true. So, would a bunch of SEEs be less rowdy than a bunch of IEIs, persay? I mean, if there were 6 SEEs and 6 IEIs in separate groups, both are really happy/comfortable with eachother, do you think the SEEs would be quieter? Umm....

I'll stop now, I'm just digging myself into a huge hole of nothingness

[PotatoSpirit]

I mean, I'm so confused - welcomes people (like in the BBQ example) when people are feeling out of place with happy external including emotions ... but what would valuers and in particular creatives do in the same situation? I really do not think they would be cold/unsmiling to newcomers. I know a ton of IEEs and SEEs who are plenty expressive. So what exactly is the difference?

Maybe they'd come over and start friendly conversation.

[aestrivex]

Um, just wanted to chime in and say I didn't mean to bash on or valuers when I said all that dolphin quoted.

I know isn't about faking emotions, that's just stupid. A whole function just for faking emotions? I don't think so. But, I was just stating how I, personally, react / act in certain situations for the purpose of people typing me anew.

I think this was taken out of context ... I agree with a post that Carla had about "good" examples of - the ones about BBQ and queue chit-chat. That's definitely what I associate with as well, which is the reason why I still think I am most likely a Beta NF after much re-analysis.

Haha, I STILL don't understand creative !

I mean, I'm so confused - welcomes people (like in the BBQ example) when people are feeling out of place with happy external including emotions ... but what would valuers and in particular creatives do in the same situation? I really do not think they would be cold/unsmiling to newcomers. I know a ton of IEEs and SEEs who are plenty expressive. So what exactly is the difference?

i do think that SEEs/IEEs would be "welcoming" in that situation, and might affect the emotional mood in doing so. it's not as though these people don't care about the overall mood at all; it's still an important component of the overall emotional environment and will still deal with it as necessary. it's just that these people perceive it as of secondary importance to the more sort of Fi component of relating directly with people. there's also an element of expressing one's emotions directly/honestly and not obfuscating them or reducing them somehow, which might be perceived as less important to an Fe type than the overall mood.

Another thing I've always just assumed about was that just need less of any kind of emotional atmosphere, which I do think is true. So, would a bunch of SEEs be less rowdy than a bunch of IEIs, persay? I mean, if there were 6 SEEs and 6 IEIs in separate groups, both are really happy/comfortable with eachother, do you think the SEEs would be quieter? Umm....

no, because there's also an element of Se to that kind of atmosphere and because it's not like that situation is entirely based on the external mood and not on one's "inner" feelings as well.

[ScarlettLux]

Sometimes I just wanna not care about Socionics at all...

Then I realize how impossible that would be now.

I'm too far gone!!!

[Animal]

this i think is very Fi > Fe; i don't think it's universally applicable to all Fi types, but i do think that Fe types (particularly Fe dominant types) would give a greater focus on preserving the overall emotional atmosphere.

I think this is a huge oversimplification. I've seen people make these convenient distinctions on this forum a lot when it just isn't that easy. (And, unfortunately, it usually comes from people with both weak Fi and Fe.)

Fe is not a chameleon function that conforms to whatever emotional atmosphere its presented with, but can be quite personal. It is entirely possible for one's own "emotional atmosphere" to clash with that imposed upon them by others. This happens all the time between me and my parents' largely Alpha SF friends. And it also happens quite a lot when I am depressed. When one's own desired "emotional atmosphere" is at odds with that desired by others, it makes perfect sense for a sort of lukewarmth or even outright resentment to emerge.

[Mea]

I don't understand why people associate Fe with "fake happiness". Of course, it has its moments, but so does every other freaking function ever described. lol Fe isn't about force feeding people happiness, and it's not about sacrificing your inner mood for the atmosphere, either. Fe stems from a genuine feeling. By the way, whoever said that genuine feeling had to be good? Or bad? Or happy? Or sad? It could be anything, it could be everything. It's a feeling. There are different types of feelings.

I think Fe only appears fake to Fi valuing types.
I believe why it does, is because Fe dominants care more about the emotional atmosphere of the group, so perhaps individual emotions may be sacrificed in order to preserve a certain group atmosphere.
of course, correct me if i'm wrong.

[aestrivex]

My parents constantly tell me to be smile more and be more friendly because apparently I am not whenever I meet their friends, etc. I abhor it when they tell me to do that because I don't sacrifice my inner feelings to create an external mood for other people just because "it's the right thing to do" in a social situation.

I think this is a huge oversimplification. I've seen people make these convenient distinctions on this forum a lot when it just isn't that easy. (And, unfortunately, it usually comes from people with both weak Fi and Fe.)

Fe is not a chameleon function that conforms to whatever emotional atmosphere its presented with, but can be quite personal. It is entirely possible for one's own "emotional atmosphere" to clash with that imposed upon them by others. This happens all the time between me and my parents' largely Alpha SF friends. And it also happens quite a lot when I am depressed. When one's own desired "emotional atmosphere" is at odds with that desired by others, it makes perfect sense for a sort of lukewarmth or even outright resentment to emerge.

well that makes sense i guess. but one distinction i would make is that you seem to want to impose your own kind of atmosphere, whereas an Fi type might be less concerned with that than the sort of purity of their inner sentiments.

[Animal]

Well, for the Fe-Ips, it may not necessarily be a desire to impose their own emotional atmosphere on others (this is more what the Fe-Ejs do), but rather for the external environment to mirror their inner world. Fi-types, on the other hand, would be indifferent in this regard, IME. But I can't tell which specifically is the case for ScarlettLux here from just what she posted. I just wanted to note that we can't say for sure whether it definitely is Fi at odds with Fe, or Fe at odds with someone else's Fe. Also, as someone else noted in this thread, Fe-types also have strong Fi and certain circumstances might trigger them to grapple with those inner sentiments for a while. IEIs in particular tend to go into a period of isolation in this case.

Scarlett might well be SEE or another Fi-type, but not necessarily for this particular reason.

[marooned]

These sorts of things lead me back to thinking I might not be Fe. I don't have much desire that I'm aware of to impose an emotional atmosphere, or manipulate the emotional atmosphere... What I do have is an awareness of the atmosphere itself and how it is favorable or unfavorable to certain outcomes, to me, and to others. I relate to the Fe awareness aspect of Fe... but not so much to the outward expression of Fe. Also I'm not sure I'd be very good at creating the sort of Fe environment Carla mentioned in her post... or even that I would see it as important to do so... In the past I think I've been rather neglectful of creating welcoming atmospheres or of seeing them as important. Also if I put myself in Carla's shoes in her example... I'd feel *really* uncomfortable if everyone decided to welcome me and acknowledge my presence at once... I think anyway.

I also wanted to add that I don't know that "fakeness" is a good thing to go off of... you can create fake Fi or fake Fe, for instance. Like if someone pretends to be all concerned with your personal problems... wouldn't that be fake Fi? I don't see a point in associating all perception of fake emotion with Fe.

[anndelise]

You know, I don’t really understand the concept of Fe that's floating around this forum.
Fe creatives have the hidden agenda of "to understand". How does pushing others to abide by some emotional atmosphere, or forcing them to contribute to an emotional atmosphere, or "faking" emotions contribute to their hidden agenda?

IMO, descriptions of Fe creative should somehow involve how it fits in with the hidden agenda. (Actually, not just Fe creative…any ego creative description needs to be cross checked with how it helps aid achieving the hidden agenda, imo.) This would be an excellent way of ensuring that one's not pushing one's on biases onto the function/type.

A couple of examples of two Fe creative types that I spend a lot of time with.
1) Richard (SiFe) is willing to do a lot for me. I'm not clear in the signals I give out, and that's pretty much all he asks of me. If my signals aren't clear to him, then how can he understand what I want from him? So I have to make an extra effort to be clear verbally about what I want from him. The clearer I am, the happier he is.

This man is willing to do a lot for me. But he doesn't know what I want from him, unless I signal/tell him. For example, today, he worked his ass off for me by building a temporary fence for our home. I wanted it so that we could let the dog outside and let her enjoy some space and smelling and the nice weather without my having to stand out there with her every time. So I told him what I wanted done, what materials I wanted him to use, and when I wanted it done by. At first he hemmed and hawed. It's a lot of work to contemplate, and he'd never put up a fence like that before. But I insisted. Because I insisted, it obviously was something that I really really wanted! So he did it. He purchased the materials I wanted, even called me while he was at the store to let me know what my options were, and to get further clarification. Today we went out and worked on it, and he listened to my suggestions and even input some of his own (obviously, since HE's the one building it). One of my suggestions that helped him a lot was when I suggested building a refillable trench so that we didn't have to worry about the unevenness of the ground affecting the tightness and durability of the fence. His suggestions involved more aesthetic appeal (he's a real perfectionist when it comes to that kind of thing). And a few times I had to put my foot down and tell him that it didn't need to be perfect, just functional and durable.

He worked all day on this project for me. What did he ask for in return? Acknowledgement of how much work he was putting in, appreciation for his efforts, and maybe a little loving later (lol). Again, since my normal signals aren't that easily readable, I have to put in effort to clarify them. Does this mean I'm supposed to fake my emotions? Not all. Just be CLEAR about them.
Clear != Fake
Fake != Clear

2) I spend quite a bit of time with my brother (NiFe). Not as much as I'd like to since I moved down here with Richard, but almost every time I am in town, I call him up and he'll join me on my errands and such. He doesn't care what we do, it's the quality time we spend together that he enjoys, I think. When I ask him what he wants to do, where does he want to go, what does he want to eat, etc, he most of the time says that he doesn't care. If I suggest something that he doesn't particularly want, he'll offer an alternative suggestion…lol, which usually leads to me offering suggestions and hoping he'll make the decision, and so on until (usually) I get impatient enough that I decide on a place. Again, it's not where we go, what we do, what we eat…but spending time together.

When we talk about things, particularly things that are important to either of us at the time, he spends a lot of time trying to read my signals. But again, my signals aren't very clear. He may start doing things like raising his voice a bit, or talking faster, something…ANYthing…to get me to start signaling to him that I understand him..what he's saying. Unfortunately, the faster he talks, or the louder his voice goes, the more quite and mellow I get…the less signals I put out for him to read. The less signals I put out, the more unsure he is if I'm understanding him..or if he's understanding me.

It takes a little more time and effort on my part to be clear when interacting with my brother. My signals aren't clear, so I'm left with words. But most of the things we discuss are so abstract that I have a much harder time being clear. My thoughts just aren't clear enough, nor structured enough to communicate easily. However, in day to day kind of things, like what I want to do, or sharing/discussing memories/experiences, etc, our communications flow MUCH easier.

***

Both of them are very accommodating of other people. Just so long as they themselves aren't being pushed upon in ways they don't like, then they are "easy". Both of them pay attention to signals, and the clearer the signal they're given, the more at ease they feel.

And for those who didn't get it the first round…
Clear is not Fake
Fake is not Clear
And, ime (not just with the above two), Fe creative types really want CLEAR signals, and CLEAR signals help them understand those around them.

[aestrivex]

You know, I don’t really understand the concept of Fe that's floating around this forum.
Fe creatives have the hidden agenda of "to understand". How does pushing others to abide by some emotional atmosphere, or forcing them to contribute to an emotional atmosphere, or "faking" emotions contribute to their hidden agenda?

IMO, descriptions of Fe creative should somehow involve how it fits in with the hidden agenda. (Actually, not just Fe creative…any ego creative description needs to be cross checked with how it helps aid achieving the hidden agenda, imo.) This would be an excellent way of ensuring that one's not pushing one's on biases onto the function/type.

A couple of examples of two Fe creative types that I spend a lot of time with.
1) Richard (SiFe) is willing to do a lot for me. I'm not clear in the signals I give out, and that's pretty much all he asks of me. If my signals aren't clear to him, then how can he understand what I want from him? So I have to make an extra effort to be clear verbally about what I want from him. The clearer I am, the happier he is.

This man is willing to do a lot for me. But he doesn't know what I want from him, unless I signal/tell him. For example, today, he worked his ass off for me by building a temporary fence for our home. I wanted it so that we could let the dog outside and let her enjoy some space and smelling and the nice weather without my having to stand out there with her every time. So I told him what I wanted done, what materials I wanted him to use, and when I wanted it done by. At first he hemmed and hawed. It's a lot of work to contemplate, and he'd never put up a fence like that before. But I insisted. Because I insisted, it obviously was something that I really really wanted! So he did it. He purchased the materials I wanted, even called me while he was at the store to let me know what my options were, and to get further clarification. Today we went out and worked on it, and he listened to my suggestions and even input some of his own (obviously, since HE's the one building it). One of my suggestions that helped him a lot was when I suggested building a refillable trench so that we didn't have to worry about the unevenness of the ground affecting the tightness and durability of the fence. His suggestions involved more aesthetic appeal (he's a real perfectionist when it comes to that kind of thing). And a few times I had to put my foot down and tell him that it didn't need to be perfect, just functional and durable.

He worked all day on this project for me. What did he ask for in return? Acknowledgement of how much work he was putting in, appreciation for his efforts, and maybe a little loving later (lol). Again, since my normal signals aren't that easily readable, I have to put in effort to clarify them. Does this mean I'm supposed to fake my emotions? Not all. Just be CLEAR about them.
Clear != Fake
Fake != Clear

2) I spend quite a bit of time with my brother (NiFe). Not as much as I'd like to since I moved down here with Richard, but almost every time I am in town, I call him up and he'll join me on my errands and such. He doesn't care what we do, it's the quality time we spend together that he enjoys, I think. When I ask him what he wants to do, where does he want to go, what does he want to eat, etc, he most of the time says that he doesn't care. If I suggest something that he doesn't particularly want, he'll offer an alternative suggestion…lol, which usually leads to me offering suggestions and hoping he'll make the decision, and so on until (usually) I get impatient enough that I decide on a place. Again, it's not where we go, what we do, what we eat…but spending time together.

When we talk about things, particularly things that are important to either of us at the time, he spends a lot of time trying to read my signals. But again, my signals aren't very clear. He may start doing things like raising his voice a bit, or talking faster, something…ANYthing…to get me to start signaling to him that I understand him..what he's saying. Unfortunately, the faster he talks, or the louder his voice goes, the more quite and mellow I get…the less signals I put out for him to read. The less signals I put out, the more unsure he is if I'm understanding him..or if he's understanding me.

It takes a little more time and effort on my part to be clear when interacting with my brother. My signals aren't clear, so I'm left with words. But most of the things we discuss are so abstract that I have a much harder time being clear. My thoughts just aren't clear enough, nor structured enough to communicate easily. However, in day to day kind of things, like what I want to do, or sharing/discussing memories/experiences, etc, our communications flow MUCH easier.

***

Both of them are very accommodating of other people. Just so long as they themselves aren't being pushed upon in ways they don't like, then they are "easy". Both of them pay attention to signals, and the clearer the signal they're given, the more at ease they feel.

And for those who didn't get it the first round…
Clear is not Fake
Fake is not Clear
And, ime (not just with the above two), Fe creative types really want CLEAR signals, and CLEAR signals help them understand those around them.

???????????

[anndelise]

I've noticed something with my ENFp mom - like you described, it really is hard for her to be direct and clear. She's sort of spread out. Like when I'm talking to ENFps, I'm thinking we're on the same wavelength and then suddenly they go all vague and I try to get them to clarify and they get even more vague. lol it's very annoying sometimes. Like she'll ask me to do something, so I'll do it the way she said, but halfway through she'll come in and change her instructions and add and subtract things. It's like she's thinking out loud. I'll ask her a simple question and wish she'll give me a straight answer, for example "What kind of orange juice do you want? Frozen or fresh?" and she'll say "Oh, hmm, you could get the fresh for breakfast if you want, I really don't care, it doesn't matter either way........ but you could also get some frozen to put away for later. Maybe you should? Oh wait, I wonder how much they cost....if they cost below $1.50 get 3 of them but if they're more than that just get 1 because my paycheck isn't till tommorrow......and by the way if you're by the yogurt section we could use some pudding because such and such event is coming up, etc......" and I'm like "Mom. Please. The orange juice. Choose. Choose. Please. Ok. Bye." lol

omg, that is almost exactly like how things are with richard and I, it drives him NUTS

notes to keep in mind under those situations.
* if she's offering options, then she hasn't settled on one or the other or the other or the other, she's open to whatever...feel free to give her whatever, and if she complains, tell her that she SAID she didn't care
* she's aware that she doesn't know what exactly is available and is offering you suggestions on what she considers important (the price thing and what to do if the price is one way or the other way). If she had the information at hand, then she'd be able to make the decision easier. But she doesn't, so she's guessing and trying to cover the alternatives she's aware of. If all else fails, tell her you'll call her while you're at the store, that way you can answer her questions and she'll be easier able to make a decision and tell you what she wants.
* remember that it's just as difficult for her to be clear, as it is for you to try to function without that clarity. But don't try to take it all on yourself, but do try to meet her part way.

regarding the fencing thing, richard DID call me from the store because there were choices there that he didn't know what i wanted. So I asked him what my options were, he told me what the store had, and I told him that one of the options was a definite no go, but that i didn't care which of the two final options he chose. That it depended on the cost per measurement as to which was the better one to get. He's better at calculating those things than I am, so I left that to him. He'd have much preferred my telling him which one to get, but that would have required me to sit down with pen/paper and keep him on the phone, while he's able to figure that stuff out in his head more easily.

as a side note, he DID purchase something different than what i had had in mind. i guess i wasn't clear enough. however, what he got was better than the stuff i was initially thinking of. and while a lot more expensive, i'm happy that he got what he got instead of what i was thinking of.

I have a tendency to settle for less than what I wanted. He doesn't like that. He wants me to get what I want without settling. He might complain about the cost, etc. But from him I've learned not to settle near as much as I used to.

edited to add: oh, and she IS thinking out loud!!!!! scary isn't it

[anndelise]

Note: Fe being related to signals people put out isn't a new concept.

http://www.socionics.us/theory/information.shtml

characteristics of objects and their motion — "extraverted" elements
dynamic, rational elements (objects in motion)
extraverted ethics
emotive ethics
internal activity of objects
internal activity of objects: internal processes, mood, emotional activity and arousability, emotional content

sorry, haven't figured out how to do tables and the indentations didn't look right

http://www.socionics.us/theory/be.shtml

types pay close attention to the way people say things, the way they talk, their facial expressions, their choice of words, their gestures, and all other external manifestations of one's internal emotional state. You may think your happiness or discouragement is well concealed and invisible to those around you, but it is all in plain view to types, who directly observe your external self-expression and draw conclusions from it about what's happening inside of you, what you are experiencing, how well you fit into the emotional context of the situation, whether you like or dislike what is going on, and what you may feel like doing next, etc. However, if they are absorbed in their own self-expression, they probably won't pay much attention to you.

Each of us constantly sends out information of a nature. Each unusual intonation or gesture, each hint of irritation in our voice, each awkward pause, each chuckle or sudden change of expression sends a signal to other people. Some types — particularly ILI and SLI (with emotive ethics as their fourth function) consciously try to send as few signals of this kind as possible — and are usually successful. This makes ESEs and EIEs (with emotive ethics as their first function) mistrustful and unsure of themselves, since they have too little information to go by in their interaction with such people.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Semantic_Content_of_Symbols_Used_i n_Socionics

(black corner), or black ethics
Internal processes. Process which are internal and hidden from sight and often make themselves known through sounds from within or through changes in an object's appearance (for instance, blushing). In humans these range from emotional experiences to digestion. Emotional states, moods, excitement, depression.

[ScarlettLux]

You know, I don’t really understand the concept of Fe that's floating around this forum.
Fe creatives have the hidden agenda of "to understand". How does pushing others to abide by some emotional atmosphere, or forcing them to contribute to an emotional atmosphere, or "faking" emotions contribute to their hidden agenda?

IMO, descriptions of Fe creative should somehow involve how it fits in with the hidden agenda. (Actually, not just Fe creative…any ego creative description needs to be cross checked with how it helps aid achieving the hidden agenda, imo.) This would be an excellent way of ensuring that one's not pushing one's on biases onto the function/type.

A couple of examples of two Fe creative types that I spend a lot of time with.
1) Richard (SiFe) is willing to do a lot for me. I'm not clear in the signals I give out, and that's pretty much all he asks of me. If my signals aren't clear to him, then how can he understand what I want from him? So I have to make an extra effort to be clear verbally about what I want from him. The clearer I am, the happier he is.

This man is willing to do a lot for me. But he doesn't know what I want from him, unless I signal/tell him. For example, today, he worked his ass off for me by building a temporary fence for our home. I wanted it so that we could let the dog outside and let her enjoy some space and smelling and the nice weather without my having to stand out there with her every time. So I told him what I wanted done, what materials I wanted him to use, and when I wanted it done by. At first he hemmed and hawed. It's a lot of work to contemplate, and he'd never put up a fence like that before. But I insisted. Because I insisted, it obviously was something that I really really wanted! So he did it. He purchased the materials I wanted, even called me while he was at the store to let me know what my options were, and to get further clarification. Today we went out and worked on it, and he listened to my suggestions and even input some of his own (obviously, since HE's the one building it). One of my suggestions that helped him a lot was when I suggested building a refillable trench so that we didn't have to worry about the unevenness of the ground affecting the tightness and durability of the fence. His suggestions involved more aesthetic appeal (he's a real perfectionist when it comes to that kind of thing). And a few times I had to put my foot down and tell him that it didn't need to be perfect, just functional and durable.

He worked all day on this project for me. What did he ask for in return? Acknowledgement of how much work he was putting in, appreciation for his efforts, and maybe a little loving later (lol). Again, since my normal signals aren't that easily readable, I have to put in effort to clarify them. Does this mean I'm supposed to fake my emotions? Not all. Just be CLEAR about them.
Clear != Fake
Fake != Clear

2) I spend quite a bit of time with my brother (NiFe). Not as much as I'd like to since I moved down here with Richard, but almost every time I am in town, I call him up and he'll join me on my errands and such. He doesn't care what we do, it's the quality time we spend together that he enjoys, I think. When I ask him what he wants to do, where does he want to go, what does he want to eat, etc, he most of the time says that he doesn't care. If I suggest something that he doesn't particularly want, he'll offer an alternative suggestion…lol, which usually leads to me offering suggestions and hoping he'll make the decision, and so on until (usually) I get impatient enough that I decide on a place. Again, it's not where we go, what we do, what we eat…but spending time together.

When we talk about things, particularly things that are important to either of us at the time, he spends a lot of time trying to read my signals. But again, my signals aren't very clear. He may start doing things like raising his voice a bit, or talking faster, something…ANYthing…to get me to start signaling to him that I understand him..what he's saying. Unfortunately, the faster he talks, or the louder his voice goes, the more quite and mellow I get…the less signals I put out for him to read. The less signals I put out, the more unsure he is if I'm understanding him..or if he's understanding me.

It takes a little more time and effort on my part to be clear when interacting with my brother. My signals aren't clear, so I'm left with words. But most of the things we discuss are so abstract that I have a much harder time being clear. My thoughts just aren't clear enough, nor structured enough to communicate easily. However, in day to day kind of things, like what I want to do, or sharing/discussing memories/experiences, etc, our communications flow MUCH easier.

***

Both of them are very accommodating of other people. Just so long as they themselves aren't being pushed upon in ways they don't like, then they are "easy". Both of them pay attention to signals, and the clearer the signal they're given, the more at ease they feel.

And for those who didn't get it the first round…
Clear is not Fake
Fake is not Clear
And, ime (not just with the above two), Fe creative types really want CLEAR signals, and CLEAR signals help them understand those around them.

Wow, I really like this post!

Finally, something that describes how creatives work! Ah, I totally relate, really I do. I am CONSTANTLY reading other peoples' outer "signals", and especially the emotions on their face, the voice intonation, gestures, all that stuff. To me, that is very important b/c it helps me gauge just how happy/interested the person is with talking to me or about the subject we are talking about.

When you see a group of IEIs together, it will be consistently and almost over-the-top with this sort of communication. I was in a group of IEIs - 4 of us, and it was perfect understanding. I think that must be some sort of identity thing, when you can say anything that's on your mind. A connection. This is another reason why I seriously doubt SEE for my type, because I have these male IEI friends (yes, I'm sure they're IEI) that "get me" better than anyone else, and allow me to be myself more than any other friends I supposedly have.

When people DON'T give creatives clear signals, for me, it's kinda like : Umm... does this person not like talking to me? Is he/she not interested? Oh no! What have I done wrong? What should I do to make this better? *Starts gesticulating more frantically and being even MORE emotionally expressive* This works VERY well on ego types, who NEED this sort of thing.

I never knew that this did not work on types? Why does it not work, anndelise, on you? I mean, if you already understand that creatives need this type of validation, what exactly is inherent in your nature that prevents you from giving this sort of signal? I've always wanted to understand this... why do you quiet down even more? I noticed IEEs do this too. It really frustrated me b/c in relationships with them (which I will NEVER have again!), I feel like they are very lackluster in being warm ... making me feel wanted. It's like there is no emotional connection deep enough for me. Only with IEIs do I feel this...

I love ILIs and all, they're highly interesting, but I think I would feel stunted if they didn't give me this sort of thing... being all deadpan ...

[BLauritson]

The SEEs I know tend to read people's facial expressions and things like that. Reminds me of a situation in my workplace a while back. One of the SEEs I work with was walking past my desk, so I looked over to her. The conversation went something like this:

Her: You gave me a really evil look then
Me: Did I?
Her: Yeah
Me: I'm sorry
Her: That's OK

I think she found it amusing at the time. But yeah, something to bear in mind is that just because something applies to a particular type, doesn't mean it's exclusive to that type. Sorry ScarlettLux, but you're not escaping Gamma that easily >:)

[ScarlettLux]

The SEEs I know tend to read people's facial expressions and things like that. Reminds me of a situation in my workplace a while back. One of the SEEs I work with was walking past my desk, so I looked over to her. The conversation went something like this:

Her: You gave me a really evil look then
Me: Did I?
Her: Yeah
Me: I'm sorry
Her: That's OK

I think she found it amusing at the time. But yeah, something to bear in mind is that just because something applies to a particular type, doesn't mean it's exclusive to that type. Sorry ScarlettLux, but you're not escaping Gamma that easily >:)

Hehe, I know That's why I still put it in my signature, still searching for the truth!

Yep, I know that just b/c something applies to a particular type, doesn't mean it's exclusive... I just find myself placing a shitload of importance on that, maybe moreso than I would find an SEE doing so.

[anndelise]

I never knew that this did not work on types? Why does it not work, anndelise, on you? I mean, if you already understand that creatives need this type of validation, what exactly is inherent in your nature that prevents you from giving this sort of signal? I've always wanted to understand this... why do you quiet down even more? I noticed IEEs do this too. It really frustrated me b/c in relationships with them (which I will NEVER have again!), I feel like they are very lackluster in being warm ... making me feel wanted. It's like there is no emotional connection deep enough for me. Only with IEIs do I feel this...

I love ILIs and all, they're highly interesting, but I think I would feel stunted if they didn't give me this sort of thing... being all deadpan ...

One thing to keep in mind is that XeFi are said to be strong in Fe as well. Though it's also said to be subconscious. I won't profess to say that I understand Model A well at all, particularly regarding the 7th and 8th functions. So what I say in this post is more my ideas than anything that is actual socionics.

(There's also the issue that in order to survive my father I had to develop a constant awareness of even the subtlest shifts of signals he put out. Him being XeFi (esfp), those shifts could change before a pin dropped, and my Ne kept getting in the way if I actually tried to be consciously aware of the Fe signals. So I had to rely a lot on my subconscious picking up even the subtlest of signals, allowing me to focus more on being ready to react without conscious notice. So some things I say below won't necessarily reflect on XeFi either.)

***

Based on observations of myself and other XeFi people I've known, healthy or not, there does seem to be an awareness of Fe information on some level. Even if can't necessarily pinpoint what the signal was. I believe that it in some way conflicts with the Ne though. That, like, too many "reasons" for the internal feelings that we are getting are popping into our heads. Too many meanings and nothing to pinpoint. And of course, if we are insecure with our relationship with the person or the topic, we won't know how to sort through that info very well. So we, too, will ask those kinds of questions. "S/he doesn't seem to be interested in what I'm saying, they're looking elsewhere, I wonder what they're looking at. (loses train of thought as tries to figure out what s/he is looking at) (looks confused when s/he asks us to continue what we were saying…what were we saying???)" "What am I doing wrong?" "I can't even tell if s/he likes me or not." etc.

I think, however, that the Fe to Ne info gets retranslated/sorted via Fi. So somehow the questions and doubts are more along the lines of hitting our own personal insecurities…or info about the relationship, or likes/dislikes of the person we are talking with. I think. (see disclaimer above, heh)

What I don't understand is why the increase in activity/signals to get the person to respond. For me it becomes overload. And maybe, just maybe, if I show that there's nothing to be so 'excited' about, if I remain calm, or get calmer, then maybe they will too. Heheheh Seriously, the last thing anyone (including me) wants is for me to emote all over the place. There's too much of a tendency for emoting to go all over the place, to not make any sense, to be inspired by whatever spur of the moment thought hit my head which may or may not actually be associated with what the other person is talking about, etc etc. Trust me, if I were to get as active as the Fe ego person I am with, the signals would NOT be clear.

And to be honest, to me it feels like the other person is screaming at me. The voice may not necessarily be raised. But I get the same sense of wanting to hide or look away.

Wolves/Dogs have this thing where if one is uptight, growling and sending aggressive/defensive signals, the other wolf may help ease the sense of aggressiveness/defensiveness the first is feeling by looking away, yawning, etc. It's like "there's nothing here to be so excited about, look at me I'm not worried about being this close to you", etc. In a sense, on a subconscious level, I think that's the kind of signals my reactions are trying to send out. I mean, there aren't thoughts in my head saying that I need to calm this person down, etc. But the reactions I have, after the fact, might be interpreted this way?

This has even more likelihood by my sometimes lowering my hand in front of them to let them know to lower their voice (because it's disturbing other people who are also trying to carry on conversations with their partners or enjoy their meal, etc). Btw, this kind of overt signal seems to drive the Fe creative I'm with NUTS.

(an afterthought… sometimes I…worry?..wonder?...that the person might explode if I were to increase the energy. Like would that then increase theirs, become too much, and thus make their head explode or give them a heart attack, etc??? lol)

I recognize that Ti types need these loud signals. It's kind of like a beacon in the night, or a lighthouse by which to guide themselves on the seas. So I don't begrudge any of it. It serves a purpose and works well with certain types of people. But for me, personally, it makes me want to run away or hide myself in a corner or under the table or something. (But I think that this reaction is due to internal associations with my father.) And I haven't had much of an opportunity to ask the other XeFi people that I know how THEY view the whole thing. Sometimes they do increase their energy and give off louder signals. (I think I do too sometimes, depending on how interested I am in the subject of discussion, or the activity we are doing.) Sometimes they decrease the amount/extent of their signals. I think it might have something to do with whether or not they(we) are caught up in the moment or not.

When I am caught up in the moment (mind's not second guessing or adding in it's own crap), then my signals, while still subtle, are more and clearer. But if my mind is kicking in gear, if I'm not fully caught up in the moment, then I'm more withdrawn and obviously much less in the moment…and thus less signals and less clear. (I actually think the caught up in the moment vs mind in gear thing is quite possibly the primary reason, for at least Fi creatives.)

It wasn't until coming across socionics that I ever thought about the above, about the signals given off and that certain people seem to love all those signals, that some require those signals, and that the clarity and ..freedom?...of the signals given mean a lot to the person on the receiving end. Actually, even then it was only after being made aware of those things and then discussing them with NiFe and observing the reactions and such of the SiFe I know, that I began putting in more effort to not clamp down or to be more clear somehow…even if only in words.

As for deadpan SiTe…that means that when they do finally signal…a wink, a caress, a smile, that it's one of the most beautiful thing there is. And that because they rarely do it until they know you better, then you know that it's something special.

[PotatoSpirit]

This is another reason why I seriously doubt SEE for my type, because I have these male IEI friends (yes, I'm sure they're IEI) that "get me" better than anyone else, and allow me to be myself more than any other friends I supposedly have.

Ah the ancient INFp art of pretend understanding in the hope of getting laid :-P

[snegledmaca]

Ah the ancient INFp art of pretend understanding in the hope of getting laid :-P

[ScarlettLux]

Ah the ancient INFp art of pretend understanding in the hope of getting laid :-P

lolololol

[aka-kitsune]

And, ime (not just with the above two), Fe creative types really want CLEAR signals, and CLEAR signals help them understand those around them.

YES. If there's one thing that entirely frustrates me it's not knowing where I stand with someone. I'm totally blind if I can't read emotional signals.