EIEs/ENFjs feeling isolated and left out of groups

[idealistichick]

So today I was hanging out with all my friends. They pretty much just sit there and laugh. I try to join them in the conversations and somehow I end up alone while they are having the time of their lives. They started asking me today why I tend to isolate myself alot of the time. Do other EIE's do the same thing?

[Angel Alliterator]

I occasionally feel left out in many group situations (even if I was the one to arrange it or lead to it). The reason is that the ENFj is self-sacrificing feelings and this leads to feeling lonely and isolated from others (even when they are around you).

This is not unusual for an ENFj.

[lefty]

So today I was hanging out with all my friends. They pretty much just sit there and laugh. I try to join them in the conversations and somehow I end up alone while they are having the time of their lives. They started asking me today why I tend to isolate myself alot of the time. Do other EIE's do the same thing?

oh hells yeah. oh you betcha. im the queen of isolation. as a child i had my head up the clouds...total fantasy world....a couple of loner friends all my life except one enfp i befriended who became quite gregarious over the years as she grew up.

groups of adults can and have overpowered me...groups is social situations not as much (as opposed to work). i think its good to look for activity partners to losen you up social (ESTP) and the dual to fortify that and the infp i dunno...they can help us look at things differently. maybe if you can find an ESFP to tag along with and benefit...but be weary.

peace

[idealistichick]

oh hells yeah. oh you betcha. im the queen of isolation. as a child i had my head up the clouds...total fantasy world....a couple of loner friends all my life except one enfp i befriended who became quite gregarious over the years as she grew up.

groups of adults can and have overpowered me...groups is social situations not as much (as opposed to work). i think its good to look for activity partners to losen you up social (ESTP) and the dual to fortify that and the infp i dunno...they can help us look at things differently. maybe if you can find an ESFP to tag along with and benefit...but be weary.

peace

My group of friends consist of one ESFp, two INFp's, an ENFp, and someone who might be ISTj. I tend to get caught up in my own world regardless.

[tiny_dancer]

(way off topic - but I like your sig quote, onetreehilluver - i feel very much like that myself recently...)

[lefty]

i notice you relate as an observer, in enneagram, as do i. i wonder if with you as a 6 and me as a 4 that we do it for different reasons or what.

[lefty]

machintruc posted about all the types in the alternative topics section...thought it might shed some light...people haven't reacted to it well, but i think its interesting:


468 - Reactive Triad

- Moody, unstable
- Hostile, hard to socialise with
- Non-adaptive behaviour, seek conflict with the world in order to "educate" it
- Seek physical conflicts, more prone to seek conflicts for conflicts themselves instead of their benefits
- Egocentric, narcissistic : "everyone should help themselves first, because that's natural"
- Low social skills : deliberately withdrawn
- Usually looks charismatic, overtly intimidating ; persuades by intimidating or harming others (physically or emotionally)
- Usually non-filtered, reckless speech, only avoids to say things that would lead to the highest penalties (if however responsible enough to do so), and willingly adding extra harmful content to their speech
- Not afraid of being excluded of groups
- Higher IQ, lower EQ
- Seeks to be respected, empathy doesn't seem to mean anything
- Leadership styles range from authoritarian to dictatorial - thinks that lack of control may lead to anarchy
- When dealing with boring people, simply ignores them except if extrinsic benefit is very high

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=17138

[Kristiina]

I do that sometimes. I just observe the group from the outside. I observe what people say and how others react. When I'm having a high-energy moment, I influence the group dynamics so much that I start wondering if I should just stay quiet and not interfere.

[lastdance]

This thread and your posts suprised me very much. I was thinking that only introverts can isolate him self in a group of people, even friends :]
I just like you isolate myself but I dont know why :] I think it's just our dramatic nature.

[idealistichick]

This thread and your posts suprised me very much. I was thinking that only introverts can isolate him self in a group of people, even friends :]
I just like you isolate myself but I dont know why :] I think it's just our dramatic nature.

Yeah that's what I thought at the beginning but now I realize that I guess its more related to a disconnection with the world and my friends. I guess its that ENFj depression phase...

[Angel Alliterator]

ENFjs are always said to have sad melancholic eyes, that is because since we are always looking towards the future possibilities...we get depressed when see the potential that *never was.*

[lefty]

This thread and your posts suprised me very much. I was thinking that only introverts can isolate him self in a group of people, even friends :]
I just like you isolate myself but I dont know why :] I think it's just our dramatic nature.

good observations about the two sides of enfj. enfjs are dramatic its true. even if its something we might have difficulty comprehending about ourselves.

[lefty]

ENFjs are always said to have sad melancholic eyes, that is because since we are always looking towards the future possibilities...we get depressed when see the potential that *never was.*

as far as i know istjs find this comforting. ive seen some of the doe eyes come out of an estp before, too, when they're relaxed.

[machintruc]

This thread and your posts suprised me very much. I was thinking that only introverts can isolate him self in a group of people, even friends :]
I just like you isolate myself but I dont know why :] I think it's just our dramatic nature.

We don't isolate ourselves for the same reasons.

For example :

You may isolate yourself because they don't naturally feel the need to relate to people.
You may isolate yourself because they want to avoid potentially harmful people, especially if you're an extrovert.

Social isolation itself isn't a reliable indicator for typing. But the reasons to do so may be.

[Angel Alliterator]

as far as i know istjs find this comforting. ive seen some of the doe eyes come out of an estp before, too, when they're relaxed.

An ENFp I was dating for a while, would always tell me how I had the saddest eyes and I never really go that until I started to look at them in the mirror.

The I realized he was indeed correct.

[idealistichick]

ENFjs are always said to have sad melancholic eyes, that is because since we are always looking towards the future possibilities...we get depressed when see the potential that *never was.*

My ESTp used to always tell me to stop being so sad even when I was really happy. I'm always getting questioned about my feelings. I constantly have to tell everyone that I'm okay and they still dont buy it.

[ScarlettLux]

Eek. I relate entirely to this whole thread. Everyone always thinks I am "lost in thought" or melancholy ... especially walking around, I have big sad eyes or something as well, just wandering around. I sometimes like to play this up though, I am actually aware of my effect on others most of the time. I do this out there doe eyed gaze... works every time

[Angel Alliterator]

Yeah, a lot of people usually ask me if I am alright or if I am ok...normally I am rather baffled by this because many times when they ask I am happy.

[Kristiina]

Well... we observe people and events... sometimes I think ENFj is just the most careful type. Sometimes I go into a moodset where I feel like I'm standing outside the events and paths that I see. And I can see how these events develop and where the paths lead. I know with full consciousness that I can change these paths! I can choose to invervene only a little and observe the consequences for a long time... There are times when I don't want to "ruin" the paths that I see. I'll be careful not to intervene. But then there are times when I think it's helpful - I say a few words or I propose an idea or I support someone elses idea... And then I sit and observe what the consequences are. Other people still see it as distancing ourselves from the group.

Being EJ, I really do think I influence the world around me at will. That's what makes me an extravert. It doesn't mean I always WANT to influence it.

[lefty]

well when an istj male or female asks me if im ok then i dont mind...they're just making sure everything is ok and exchanging luuuuv. I think it must be nice for them to encounter us since we're less of the population. I think its nice that there are so many of them, but that the ethics of their choices could suffer from a lack of duals. But i guess they try to weave an ethical society.

Anyway...If other people ask me if im ok sometimes I like it, but sometimes I find it parasitic and a way of trying to shut us down. I suppose I dont realize how much I wear my emotiions on my face until people say something to me. However it'd be nice if people read our emotions as a social que rather than trying to shut us down and carry on acting like asses.


Anyway very much enjoying all of your accounts of social engineering! and genral mutual identification in this topic...Very nice indeed. Thanks for this topic!

[idealistichick]

I realized that it's more about feeling like you belong in the group. I also realized that I'm scared of opening up to people since I have been criticized so much by everyone.

[lefty]

aww, you're not alone.

thatmust be why the reconciliator is a part of our group...the healer...be sure to allow yourself to heal and reconnect with people. its all a matter of turning the doorknob inward which is hella difficult. what opens us up is inside...our approval comes from within....we allow others forgiveness so we have to forgive ourselves, too.


my great intj friend online had me write down 20 things i like and dont like 20 things im good at ...refer back to it he said. i'm also writing down the things i value in relationships with others.

istjs can be so helpful because they're so no bullshit and so tough but also very affectionate. but in the event of a lack of them we have to be able to be our own judge. we have to do it anyway to some extent, i expect.

[idealistichick]

aww, you're not alone.

aww glad to hear that.

[mm]

Well... we observe people and events... sometimes I think ENFj is just the most careful type. Sometimes I go into a moodset where I feel like I'm standing outside the events and paths that I see. And I can see how these events develop and where the paths lead. I know with full consciousness that I can change these paths! I can choose to invervene only a little and observe the consequences for a long time... There are times when I don't want to "ruin" the paths that I see. I'll be careful not to intervene. But then there are times when I think it's helpful - I say a few words or I propose an idea or I support someone elses idea... And then I sit and observe what the consequences are. Other people still see it as distancing ourselves from the group.

Being EJ, I really do think I influence the world around me at will. That's what makes me an extravert. It doesn't mean I always WANT to influence it.

Could that be creative Ni (with all the paths and all)? And not so much EJ or extraversion? Because, hey, I can change the world too you know

[Kristiina]

Could that be creative Ni (with all the paths and all)? And not so much EJ or extraversion? Because, hey, I can change the world too you know

Makes sense. I think it's very much part of creative Ni because Ni sees the possible paths and all that.

But the reason I said EJ and extroversion is because of the opposite thinking.
IP, "I see that something will go terribly terrilbly wrong. How should I change myself to avoid that?"
EJ, "I see that something will go terribly terrilbly wrong. What should I change to avoid that?"
Like when my INFp sister fights with a friend, she'll try to figure out how to be okay with the friend's behavior in the future, so that they can put the differences behind them. But when I fight with a friend, I start thinking, "How can I make her see that she shouldn't act like that!". So she assumes she should change, I assume the world and the people around me should change.

In a group setting, both INFp and ENFj observe the paths. The INFp will easily react to the group conversation paths and the energy changes by shifting their own reactions and behavior a bit. But ENFj assumes that when they do something, the world around them will change. When I see that I'm surrounded by a happy group of people and I love seeing them that way, then I don't want it to change. If I do anything, I will see how they react to it and I will see how my actions changed everything a little bit. So it's safer to just sit and observe.

Yeah sure, sometimes people react in just the way that we want them to react. It's pretty safe to say what we want and to do what we want. It won't change anything that we can't control. That happens when surrounded by people we know well. This is why ENFjs become so much more open and friendly when they are surrounded by people they know well and trust.

[Blaze]

Makes sense. I think it's very much part of creative Ni because Ni sees the possible paths and all that.

But the reason I said EJ and extroversion is because of the opposite thinking.
IP, "I see that something will go terribly terrilbly wrong. How should I change myself to avoid that?"
EJ, "I see that something will go terribly terrilbly wrong. What should I change to avoid that?"
Like when my INFp sister fights with a friend, she'll try to figure out how to be okay with the friend's behavior in the future, so that they can put the differences behind them. But when I fight with a friend, I start thinking, "How can I make her see that she shouldn't act like that!". So she assumes she should change, I assume the world and the people around me should change.

In a group setting, both INFp and ENFj observe the paths. The INFp will easily react to the group conversation paths and the energy changes by shifting their own reactions and behavior a bit. But ENFj assumes that when they do something, the world around them will change. When I see that I'm surrounded by a happy group of people and I love seeing them that way, then I don't want it to change. If I do anything, I will see how they react to it and I will see how my actions changed everything a little bit. So it's safer to just sit and observe.

Yeah sure, sometimes people react in just the way that we want them to react. It's pretty safe to say what we want and to do what we want. It won't change anything that we can't control. That happens when surrounded by people we know well. This is why ENFjs become so much more open and friendly when they are surrounded by people they know well and trust.

great notes on the way introverts and extraverts are different. i totally relate. i try to change the situation, other people, etc before i'll change myself. for sure.

great example also of how it's better for an introvert and an extravert to be paired in a relationship, too. otherwise with 2 extraverts, they'd both be trying to change the other person. theoretically at least. lol.

[liveandletlive]

i agree with this a lot too. i have a lot of enfjs in my life and whenever i've introduced them to socionics, they've been baffled to be considered an extravert. i also get in these moods sometimes where i just need to shut down and be by myself, however i wonder if your isolation stems from in the fact that it must be intense and exhausting to always be concerned with the group atmosphere and others' emotions. i've also noticed this with some of my ESE friends as well.

i also have a question for lefty regarding:

groups of adults can and have overpowered me...groups is social situations not as much (as opposed to work). i think its good to look for activity partners to losen you up social (ESTP) and the dual to fortify that and the infp i dunno...they can help us look at things differently. maybe if you can find an ESFP to tag along with and benefit...but be weary.

why be weary? jw...

[liveandletlive]

groups of adults can and have overpowered me...groups is social situations not as much (as opposed to work). i think its good to look for activity partners to losen you up social (ESTP) and the dual to fortify that and the infp i dunno...they can help us look at things differently. maybe if you can find an ESFP to tag along with and benefit...but be weary.

[Red Sky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImoMGyJjWIk

LOL, she is funny. Nice to see another Bostonian in here. I am from Revere.

[idealistichick]

Makes sense. I think it's very much part of creative Ni because Ni sees the possible paths and all that.

But the reason I said EJ and extroversion is because of the opposite thinking.
IP, "I see that something will go terribly terrilbly wrong. How should I change myself to avoid that?"
EJ, "I see that something will go terribly terrilbly wrong. What should I change to avoid that?"
Like when my INFp sister fights with a friend, she'll try to figure out how to be okay with the friend's behavior in the future, so that they can put the differences behind them. But when I fight with a friend, I start thinking, "How can I make her see that she shouldn't act like that!". So she assumes she should change, I assume the world and the people around me should change.

In a group setting, both INFp and ENFj observe the paths. The INFp will easily react to the group conversation paths and the energy changes by shifting their own reactions and behavior a bit. But ENFj assumes that when they do something, the world around them will change. When I see that I'm surrounded by a happy group of people and I love seeing them that way, then I don't want it to change. If I do anything, I will see how they react to it and I will see how my actions changed everything a little bit. So it's safer to just sit and observe.

Yeah sure, sometimes people react in just the way that we want them to react. It's pretty safe to say what we want and to do what we want. It won't change anything that we can't control. That happens when surrounded by people we know well. This is why ENFjs become so much more open and friendly when they are surrounded by people they know well and trust.

couldn't have said it better myself...

[liveandletlive]

LOL, she is funny. Nice to see another Bostonian in here. I am from Revere.

ahhh u shud join our socionics club!

[mm]

Makes sense. I think it's very much part of creative Ni because Ni sees the possible paths and all that.

But the reason I said EJ and extroversion is because of the opposite thinking.
IP, "I see that something will go terribly terrilbly wrong. How should I change myself to avoid that?"
EJ, "I see that something will go terribly terrilbly wrong. What should I change to avoid that?"
Like when my INFp sister fights with a friend, she'll try to figure out how to be okay with the friend's behavior in the future, so that they can put the differences behind them. But when I fight with a friend, I start thinking, "How can I make her see that she shouldn't act like that!". So she assumes she should change, I assume the world and the people around me should change.

uh, yeah, that's true. But I don't see that as compromising myself if that's what you mean with change. Depending on the wind I simply adjust the sails to get where I want to be. Eventually I would want my friend and I to be ourselves and to have fun again. If to get there I have to make the first step to apologise or admit I have some stupid quirks I don't expect him to put up with or something, I don't have any problem with that. Because, unless they're real jerks, people respond by admitting they did some stupid things themselves and then all is well again.

Something tells me this has to do with Process/Result, EIE being Process oriented and IEI Result. Right?

In a group setting, both INFp and ENFj observe the paths. The INFp will easily react to the group conversation paths and the energy changes by shifting their own reactions and behavior a bit. But ENFj assumes that when they do something, the world around them will change. When I see that I'm surrounded by a happy group of people and I love seeing them that way, then I don't want it to change. If I do anything, I will see how they react to it and I will see how my actions changed everything a little bit. So it's safer to just sit and observe.

Are you really worried about this sometimes or is it just a natural thing?

[Kristiina]

Quote:
In a group setting, both INFp and ENFj observe the paths. The INFp will easily react to the group conversation paths and the energy changes by shifting their own reactions and behavior a bit. But ENFj assumes that when they do something, the world around them will change. When I see that I'm surrounded by a happy group of people and I love seeing them that way, then I don't want it to change. If I do anything, I will see how they react to it and I will see how my actions changed everything a little bit. So it's safer to just sit and observe.

Are you really worried about this sometimes or is it just a natural thing?

It's a natural feeling. I just can't imagine being in a group and interacting without thinking about possibly making the group vibe worse. I don't consciously analyze it when I'm in a group, but I keep having thoughts. "They laughed at my joke, but then they became quiet. I wonder why they're quiet. They were all talking before the joke! Maybe I shouldn't have told the joke. AAAH! Maybe I should say something more. Or maybe I should stay quiet so they can continue chatting.".

I know I easily offend people when I'm "being myself", so it takes a long time for people to see the real me. I can't say or do anything without adjusting to the company I'm in. Actually I don't even know what's the real me. I know I don't act natural with my family... Sometimes I wish I was SLE or something like that.

[Red Sky]

ahhh u shud join our socionics club!

You guys have one? That would be interesting but I am not too familiar with Socionics may be you guys can teach me some.

[liveandletlive]

You guys have one? That would be interesting but I am not too familiar with Socionics may be you guys can teach me some.

def! come- we have one with BU but all are welcome

[marooned]

Actually I don't even know what's the real me. I know I don't act natural with my family...

I have this problem a lot as well.

[mm]

It's a natural feeling. I just can't imagine being in a group and interacting without thinking about possibly making the group vibe worse. I don't consciously analyze it when I'm in a group, but I keep having thoughts. "They laughed at my joke, but then they became quiet. I wonder why they're quiet. They were all talking before the joke! Maybe I shouldn't have told the joke. AAAH! Maybe I should say something more. Or maybe I should stay quiet so they can continue chatting.".

Thanks, I can rule out EIE for me then I think. I don't have this continuous focus.

I know I easily offend people when I'm "being myself", so it takes a long time for people to see the real me. I can't say or do anything without adjusting to the company I'm in. Actually I don't even know what's the real me. I know I don't act natural with my family... Sometimes I wish I was SLE or something like that.

You have every right to be yourself you know.

I relate to this part though, about not knowing what defines you. And it can sometimes be really stupid too, like when we're all ordering pizza, everybody knows what kind of pizza they want and I have absolutely no idea.

[mm]

great notes on the way introverts and extraverts are different. i totally relate. i try to change the situation, other people, etc before i'll change myself. for sure.

great example also of how it's better for an introvert and an extravert to be paired in a relationship, too. otherwise with 2 extraverts, they'd both be trying to change the other person. theoretically at least. lol.

Hmmm, I think introverts change extroverts a lot more than they realise.

[Kristiina]

...

I relate to this part though, about not knowing what defines you. And it can sometimes be really stupid too, like when we're all ordering pizza, everybody knows what kind of pizza they want and I have absolutely no idea.

When I'm not distracted by a computer game or something, I get a fairly good estimation what kind of pizza I want. "I want something fresh. mmhh with tuna. But no onion or garlic today, what are the options?"

I have a problem when the pizza man arrives. Like when I'm playing a computer game, I'm rather serious and concentrated on the game. When I talk with people, I just exchange information, I don't pay much attention to expressions. And then the pizza man arrives - I can't go to the door and not even smile to him? I can't talk with him in a dull voice! That would seem so rude! But I can't figure out if I should temporarily turn into: happy and cheerful (and get it over with fast), practical and calm, friendly and naive "ah, pizza? Great", etc. I could become any of those, but I don't know which one the pizza man would be the most comfortable with. And all those are different versions of me. None of them are fake.

[Blaze]

Hmmm, I think introverts change extroverts a lot more than they realise.

could be on to something...expand?