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Thread: LSIs/ISTjs succeeding primarily to fund recreation and lifestyle

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    Default LSIs/ISTjs succeeding primarily to fund recreation and lifestyle

    A conversation.

    LSI: "Some people live for their work. I live for life after work. That's when my life begins. I am not ambitious."
    Me: "But you went to one of the best universities in the world!"
    LSI lights up. "That's in X city. I wanted to live there to experience that environment. It's so different from where I grew up." LSI mentioned some details I can't recall right now.
    I laughed. "Right! That's what everyone does when they want to move to a new city. They find the toughest school in that city and then apply for a difficult major. How else will they experience the city?"
    LSI laughed. "The degree from Y helps me get the jobs I want in the places I like. That's pretty much the only thing it's useful for."

    I'm sure exceptions exist or maybe these are the exceptions, but I've noticed this philosophy in multiple LSIs. So it's worth a conversation. One has a top secret clearance (and enjoys his work) but primarily wants to live for his personal interests. Another went to law school and took the bar exam even though she didn't care for the degree or law at all. These LSIs work their ass off, earn multiple degrees just so that they can fully commit to their recreational life outside work, whatever that is for them. Travel, sports, learning a lot of physical things, building furniture, martial arts, some cooking, dance, expensive hobbies like hunting. They are very serious about them.

    It's really amusing and interesting to me, because my (LII-D) philosophy is somewhat different: "find/create intriguing options for work and then rake in the cash. And yes, live a fun life outside work too but primarily so that it can build more success." I don't judge them for their supposed lack of ambition whatsoever, because they clearly know what they want and are able to make it happen no matter how difficult it is. That, to me, is impressive. I'd like to understand their type better because I enjoy kindred friendships.

    My questions.

    - Is this approach because none of them were LSI-D? Maybe D types will have a different approach?

    - Have you noticed this in other LSIs? Maybe your examples didn't earn 2 degrees in college, but the rest of the philosophy is similar.

    - If you are an LSI, I'd love to know your approach to work and money. Is it similar? Slightly different? Radically different? What motivates you?

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    To study something so you can maximize enjoyment/life.



    People can apparently live like that. I can't. Only interest will carry me through.
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    For me my motivation is security; work hard now so life in the future can be better/easier. The future seems uncertain to me and having a lot of debt only amplifies that uncertainty

    Right now I'm focusing on paying off my loans so I'm putting all my money towards that now; that way, it won't be something that drags me down/limits me down the road.

    And yes I'm also investing in a expensive hobby right now too lol (ballroom); not only is it enjoyable, but I can see it potentially be of use when I'm old and retired LOL

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    This is not what I would call a typical LSI perspective.

    LSI's have weak and cautious Fe and unvalued Si so they are not typically attentive to whether they are enjoying things.
    The typical behavior is an LSI who cares deeply about their work and other duties (say, as a parent), but tends to neglect their enjoyment of life.
    Wanting to live in a new place just for the experience/novelty (and not caring about ambition for its own sake) strongly suggests valued Ne and Si.

    By contrast, your perspective - "rake in the cash" , "build more success" - is based on Se.

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    I'd say this sounds more like a typical LSE outlook tbh.

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    My brother is an LSI and is exactly like that. I think is their 4DSi in vital block.

    According model A, Vital block(ID) contains the subconscious instinctive, basic and repressed part of the personality, being this the basic way of survival and desires. It were the first part of personality developed in the individual. The Ego block was developed as counterpart for the Vital Block and a way to providing for its needs of Vital Block, which is now seen as primitive or unacceptable (especially in society). So yes, I think LSIs use Ti Se for providing in an acceptable way for their Si Te Vital Block.



    Last edited by Hope; 01-08-2018 at 08:49 PM.

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    @thehotelambush I'll address your post separately later tonight or tomorrow. It will require a longer response

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    To study something so you can maximize enjoyment/life.



    People can apparently live like that. I can't. Only interest will carry me through.
    Do you think that's because Ne notices the subtle changes in potential and notices so many possibilities? It's like air for us (and probably for Ni egos too, but in a different way). If it's missing or consistently running on low, then we feel like we're suffocating. I wonder though if -Ne egos (Delta NFs) feel differently because they might be able to handle the hopelessness can emerges from such situations.

    I feel compelled to show people what they're capable of in ways they didn't foresee (especially work skills and career paths) and to redirect them towards the best combination of opportunities. I have even given good advice to people I can't tolerate simply because I couldn't stand seeing them stagnate. I'm not sure if that's a good habit or a bad one I can see it costing me or benefiting me.


    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    For me my motivation is security; work hard now so life in the future can be better/easier. The future seems uncertain to me and having a lot of debt only amplifies that uncertainty

    Right now I'm focusing on paying off my loans so I'm putting all my money towards that now; that way, it won't be something that drags me down/limits me down the road.

    And yes I'm also investing in a expensive hobby right now too lol (ballroom); not only is it enjoyable, but I can see it potentially be of use when I'm old and retired LOL
    Thank you for responding, LSI! Paying off debt is a great thing to do It will make you feel lighter and freer, keep you well positioned for any economic downturn, etc. I'm sure you know all that.

    What types of ballroom dancing are you learning? Do you participate in competitions? Is that the plan down the road? Yes, it can totally be useful when you're old. You'll the one who's fit and everyone will be drooling over your technique and body If you're single then, you'll be in high demand. And if you're not, then your spouse will enjoy your skills. Either way, you win I'm guessing it also affects quality of sex because sex is just dancing in bed! Lucky you! Lastly, you'll be so good in your old age that you can become a teacher for some side income and stimulation. You can finetune other people's technique and get your social fix simultaneously. Your health will be much better than others. Your muscles, posture, cardio (no heart attacks), joints... I'm going to stop here. This is a really good idea! Not that you asked for my approval, but you have it

    If I marry an ESE, I'll make him sign up for dance classes with me. First, for the wedding of course, then to keep the romance alive during the mediocre years. Regular tango can fix that, right? Well, maybe it can help. And there's some other fitness stuff I've planned for my hypothetical future marriage too. I've been looking into acroyoga. That's a good partner based activity which can be expanded to include kids later. It will be great for balance. Have you tried anything of that sort?

    How does dancing affect bones and joints over time? I read something about bones strengthening through dance. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that's consistently correct?


    Quote Originally Posted by kalinoche View Post
    interesting thread. I am also fascinated by the ability to live life in that way but have a hard time doing it myself. I remember reading that result types have an easier type juggling processes because they are ''out of the process''. Then again LSI is a process type so maybe there is a diff thing at play.
    I'll have to do some reading on that to better understand the differences and impact. What's your type, btw?


    Quote Originally Posted by Muddy View Post
    I'd say this sounds more like a typical LSE outlook tbh.
    LSE, the workhorse of socionics? I think it's possible that some of them are that way, especially in their younger years when they haven't discovered a path they thrive in. I knew a LSE-H like that but he was 17 at the time. Another LSE-C who worked his butt off so he could pay his bills, party and get laid. He was 20. I don't know what he's like now.

    I've met many adult LSE-D and LSE-C who are total workaholics and they love it so much! They're strange intriguing creatures to me. Working 7 days a week makes them feel good. LSE-D like being in charge and working all the time, so I don't think your thought applies to most members of that subtype. LSE-C (esp Si subtype) loves working a lot in physically creative ways but doesn't really care too much about being the head honcho. [Tangent] But, they're very responsible. One had a panic attack while in the middle of doing some highly physical work (work which he enjoys). After he calmed down, he went right back to work because someone was counting on him to finish something. It was only after that he stepped away. I was in awe. These people are nuts but they're really awesome type of nuts [/Tangent]

    However, if you mean that the people I described are LSE, then no. They're just too Ti-Se valuing aggressors to fit LSE or caregiver style. I know I haven't described that part of them in this thread, but that's what they are.
    Last edited by Audacious; 01-08-2018 at 10:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    This is not what I would call a typical LSI perspective.

    LSI's have weak and cautious Fe and unvalued Si so they are not typically attentive to whether they are enjoying things.
    The typical behavior is an LSI who cares deeply about their work and other duties (say, as a parent), but tends to neglect their enjoyment of life.
    Wanting to live in a new place just for the experience/novelty (and not caring about ambition for its own sake) strongly suggests valued Ne and Si.

    By contrast, your perspective - "rake in the cash" , "build more success" - is based on Se.
    Just to iron out some nuances, I don't think that's what the OP meant.

    I think what was meant was that LSIs philosophy is "work hard now so you and your family CAN play later." Like, I look forward to some hobbies after work, but I know I won't be able to do those things if I can't even pay my bills. I took up a particular job not necessarily because I was passionate about it, but I knew it offered security/sufficient money. And if I had that security, that would free me up to do things I like... So that's technically still prioritizing duty over enjoyment. But yeah, I literally CAN'T enjoy a night out if I know there are things/duties undone.

    In addition, an LSI could also put health and social life as their list of priorities and approach them like duties, but not necessarily for the enjoyment as priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    @[URL="http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/member.php?u=564"]

    Thank you for responding, LSI! Paying off debt is a great thing to do It will make you feel lighter and freer, keep you well positioned for any economic downturn, etc. I'm sure you know all that.

    What types of ballroom dancing are you learning? Do you participate in competitions? Is that the plan down the road? Yes, it can totally be useful when you're old. You'll the one who's fit and everyone will be drooling over your technique and body If you're single then, you'll be in high demand. And if you're not, then your spouse will enjoy your skills. Either way, you win I'm guessing it also affects quality of sex because sex is just dancing in bed! Lucky you! Lastly, you'll be so good in your old age that you can become a teacher for some side income and stimulation. You can finetune other people's technique and get your social fix simultaneously. Your health will be much better than others. Your muscles, posture, cardio (no heart attacks), joints... I'm going to stop here. This is a really good idea! Not that you asked for my approval, but you have it

    If I marry an ESE, I'll make him sign up for dance classes with me. First, for the wedding of course, then to keep the romance alive during the mediocre years. Regular tango can fix that, right? Well, maybe it can help. And there's some other fitness stuff I've planned for my hypothetical future marriage too. I've been looking into acroyoga. That's a good partner based activity which can be expanded to include kids later. It will be great for balance. Have you tried anything of that sort?

    How does dancing affect bones and joints over time? I read something about bones strengthening through dance. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that's consistently correct?
    I'm trying to learn a little bit of everything (swing, waltz, foxtrot, rumba, samba, cha cha, tango) but focusing more on the sensual latin stuff (salsa, bachata, merengue) since I'm still young lol.

    But yeah, I always tell myself I'm investing in my retirement when people give me weird looks about why I'm doing it haha.

    Dancing has great benefits; first, it's very meditative; you can't focus on anything but the present moment... This in turn helps with depression/anxiety and immediately lifts your mood. Physically yes, it's great cardio!! I always work up a sweat.

    It's also challenging but rewarding... It's like you're in school again and you're working towards an exam; it gives me that sense of purpose and striving towards something.

    It allows you to express yourself freely and this feels very liberating after putting on a mask all day long. HIGHLY recommended for people stuck in their heads all the time.

    You also meet so many cool people along the way; this boosts your confidence and expands your social circle. Its also nice to have a little connection dancing with a total stranger

    There's also something very therapeutic/natural/raw/primal about partner dancing... The man leads and the woman follows... And what do you know? The dance works out BETTER when the man has a strong frame/leads and the woman lets go and fully submits vs both trying to gain control/resisting each other. Funny how that works huh? It's one of the very few places nowadays where a man is a man and a woman is a woman, it's amazing. It's sexy

    Overall a solid investment

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    Hmmm. For me I've always striven to achieve this but failed. I find myself getting into ruts where all I do is work, and then I'm too exhausted to do anything else, and then still being broke. My goal is to find a way to make money doing what I love so that my hobbies will be my income and it won't feel like work. I could never get a degree to make money from something I don't enjoy doing. That would be soul destroying.
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    I like a lot what the LSI said, I have a very similiar outlook. I just do a job or some annoying mechanical/society thing I don't want to do- because it helps me to do something I do actually want to do. The concept of it being more meshed together is very foreign to me. Any time where I feel like I'm working, I'm not having fun. They are just too separate. I wonder if this is a Beta quadra thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    - Is this approach because none of them were LSI-D? Maybe D types will have a different approach?

    - Have you noticed this in other LSIs? Maybe your examples didn't earn 2 degrees in college, but the rest of the philosophy is similar.

    - If you are an LSI, I'd love to know your approach to work and money. Is it similar? Slightly different? Radically different? What motivates you?
    I don't relate to your LSIs in the way described... I'm D sub. I'm just not this relaxed like your LSIs sound. Though I do have a "mode" kind of, see below for more.

    I went to the best university here because I couldn't imagine anything "less" than that. I did have an ambitious goal too with the university stuff. It wasn't a financial one though. I still keep this goal in mind, but I put it aside for a while when I went to work to get money to buy my own place at a young age. I wanted to do this because it was 1) an ambitious goal too 2) security of future like peteronfireee mentions (i.e. not having to pay for a mortgage). Similar goals later with working more to get even more money to secure the future even more.

    I seem to have two modes overall. Work hard and rake in the money, save it all up and forget about fun totally and don't even notice that it's missing from my life, or go on extended vacation, spend some of the money (sometimes all of it lol), and in general have some fun.

    As for the issue of ambition in general, I don't think I have it in the same way or have it as much in a sense as Ni egos seem to. Basically I'm less aware of ambitious grandiose ideas because of lower intuition, but I do set some high goals that would scare many people and love working for them. And then yeah, again I forget about fun and stuff while working on them.


    But, they're very responsible. One had a panic attack while in the middle of doing some highly physical work (work which he enjoys). After he calmed down, he went right back to work because someone was counting on him to finish something. It was only after that he stepped away. I was in awe. These people are nuts but they're really awesome type of nuts
    ?? What else would anyone do in this situation? I do similar "nut" things. Except I don't feel it's nuts lol


    They're just too Ti-Se valuing aggressors
    What does this look like in practice for them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    I think what was meant was that LSIs philosophy is "work hard now so you and your family CAN play later."
    If put this way, I can get behind OP's description, yes. I relate to it in this way.


    Like, I look forward to some hobbies after work, but I know I won't be able to do those things if I can't even pay my bills. I took up a particular job not necessarily because I was passionate about it, but I knew it offered security/sufficient money. And if I had that security, that would free me up to do things I like...
    TBH I prefer working for a more meaningful goal than just security but I've done that bit too. I just don't prefer it truly if that's the only goal with my work (of course besides me wanting to do the job well, which is also something I like to pay attention to, but that's not the end goal per se).


    So that's technically still prioritizing duty over enjoyment. But yeah, I literally CAN'T enjoy a night out if I know there are things/duties undone.
    I can't enjoy "pure fun" either in that state.


    In addition, an LSI could also put health and social life as their list of priorities and approach them like duties, but not necessarily for the enjoyment as priority.
    Absolutely.


    Dancing has great benefits; first, it's very meditative; you can't focus on anything but the present moment... This in turn helps with depression/anxiety and immediately lifts your mood.
    Hmm, you don't find it natural/is it not your default state, being in the present moment? (For me it is. It's mixed with a sense of purpose/task I'm working on but it's pretty present in the here and now overall.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Pole View Post
    Hmmm. For me I've always striven to achieve this but failed. I find myself getting into ruts where all I do is work, and then I'm too exhausted to do anything else, and then still being broke. My goal is to find a way to make money doing what I love so that my hobbies will be my income and it won't feel like work. I could never get a degree to make money from something I don't enjoy doing. That would be soul destroying.
    Yeah I think you want to plan it out a bit on a large scale, what you want to do and why, so it's not going to end up like working a lot for too little money that leads nowhere long term. And yes even better if the goal is meaningful beyond just earning money. I wish you luck to this!

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    Didn't read everything, but LSI ime are often work hard, play hard. Can be workaholics and immersed in their work to exclusion of everything else for long periods, but when they let go and it's time to socialize, have fun and travel, they really let go and light up in the right company. They can often be very charismatic and loud at parties telling hilarious stories and make for entertaining and generous hosts. You can see how much they enjoy good company.They have interesting polarity to them in this way. About hobbies I wouldn't know in general, but many do have them and have strong interests beside work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Didn't read everything, but LSI ime are often work hard, play hard. Can be workaholics and immersed in their work to exclusion of everything else for long periods, but when they let go and it's time to socialize, have fun and travel, they really let go and light up in the right company. They can often be very charismatic and loud at parties telling hilarious stories and make for entertaining and generous hosts. You can see how much they enjoy good company.They have interesting polarity to them in this way. About hobbies I wouldn't know in general, but many do have them and have strong interests beside work.
    Hmm would this be the kind of polarity as my two "modes" I wrote about above?

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    "work hard, play hard" applies best to Se leading types or extroverted sensors IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    "work hard, play hard" applies best to Se leading types or extroverted sensors IMO.
    The thing I wrote about with my two modes, what does that sound like to you then? (Post #11, work hard then the extended vacation)

    If you are interpreting "work hard, play hard" as nearly equal amounts of work and play then sure maybe that doesn't apply for xSIs. For me either, the balance is a bit more toward work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    The thing I wrote about with my two modes, what does that sound like to you then? (Post #11, work hard then the extended vacation)

    If you are interpreting "work hard, play hard" as nearly equal amounts of work and play then sure maybe that doesn't apply for xSIs. For me either, the balance is a bit more toward work.
    LSIs are less likely to go overboard when it comes to work, but they also won't be as active in doing excessive leisure activities, and will be less aware of the "fun" aspect of leisure.
    Se is about being active, whether that activity is fun (FeSe) or work (TeSe) related.

    I really hate interpreting self-selected observations, sorry. In this case there is not much of value to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    LSIs are less likely to go overboard when it comes to work, but they also won't be as active in doing excessive leisure activities, and will be less aware of the "fun" aspect of leisure.
    Se is about being active, whether that activity is fun (FeSe) or work (TeSe) related.
    OK I see what you mean by the Se-lead version of this.

    But eh, all extraversion relates to being active.


    I really hate interpreting self-selected observations, sorry. In this case there is not much of value to say.
    What do you call "self-selected"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    What do you call "self-selected"?
    "I do such-and-such, what does it mean in socionics?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    "I do such-and-such, what does it mean in socionics?"
    Okay, so you prefer to pick yourself for what bits you want to interpret within the context of Socionics. : p

    No problem btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I don't relate to your LSIs in the way described... I'm D sub. I'm just not this relaxed like your LSIs sound. Though I do have a "mode" kind of, see below for more.

    I went to the best university here because I couldn't imagine anything "less" than that. I did have an ambitious goal too with the university stuff. It wasn't a financial one though. I still keep this goal in mind, but I put it aside for a while when I went to work to get money to buy my own place at a young age. I wanted to do this because it was 1) an ambitious goal too 2) security of future like peteronfireee mentions (i.e. not having to pay for a mortgage). Similar goals later with working more to get even more money to secure the future even more.

    I seem to have two modes overall. Work hard and rake in the money, save it all up and forget about fun totally and don't even notice that it's missing from my life, or go on extended vacation, spend some of the money (sometimes all of it lol), and in general have some fun.

    As for the issue of ambition in general, I don't think I have it in the same way or have it as much in a sense as Ni egos seem to. Basically I'm less aware of ambitious grandiose ideas because of lower intuition, but I do set some high goals that would scare many people and love working for them. And then yeah, again I forget about fun and stuff while working on them.
    Thanks for sharing your perspective as LSI-D!

    Your two modes make sense to me. I do something similar. I'm sure our ideas of fun activities vary because I'm Se PoLR whereas you're Se creative, but the gist of it is the same. That's interesting.

    About ambition and grandiose: there's a distinct difference between having achievable dreams and having grandiose dreams, but lacking the ability/energy to make it happen. So, if you pursue activities which reap more rewards, then is your ambition really less? The way I see it, if potential energy is converted to kinetic energy (no matter how long it takes), it counts for something. Otherwise, what is it worth?

    ?? What else would anyone do in this situation? I do similar "nut" things. Except I don't feel it's nuts lol
    No, it's a strength. But if someone is doing highly physical dangerous activity, I'd expect them to feel the urge to be cautious. However, as a 3D Si/4D Se type, he probably knew what level of physical activity he could handle in that condition, and how his physical environment would impact him. I hadn't considered his understanding of his own skills when I originally wrote about him.

    From what I've seen, people who experience panic attacks or anxiety attacks seem to want to time off after that. Maybe it's because they don't know how to handle their bodies and balance their emotions. That itself could, arguably, be the cause of the problem.

    What does this look like in practice for them?
    That's a good question. For example, LSI 20-something woman liked being the pursuer. She liked the feeling of victory in her sexual hunts. Being pursued bored her. She liked finding men who needed to be persuaded, who weren't easy catches.

    She sort of idolized her SLE father, and his style of relationships (date around, never commit). She liked having a stable of FWBs, but that's not type related, is it? My impression was that stems from her relationship with her father. Her mother had been out of the picture for a long time, so he was the main parental figure around.

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    @thehotelambush

    When you comment (for example, in this thread), I get the sad impression that you rarely bond with a variety of people in real life (or even people watch). So, you have no chance to observe the differences in people which are not listed in the theory's descriptions. That's why you assume that there are sociotypes which will be less aware of fun. How could emotionally healthy people not be aware of what they enjoy?

    If you interacted and observed, you'd see that there are variations in most types including LSIs and LIIs. The inconsistency between the theory and reality would feel like a rash in your mind. You'd think, "but what about X? What about Y? The theory doesn't address these exceptions. I wonder what explains the gap. Maybe (few possibilities). But if that is the case, wouldn't (other factors) also have to be true? Let me see if the reasoning can hold up with the new input." That's what my mind does instinctively. Doesn't yours?

    Anyway, we have things like DCNH to explain the differences in behavior. A Harmonizing LSI is unlikely to be a reservoir of ambition. A D-LSI is going to be different. That was why I asked that question about D-LSI in my first post.

    I really hate interpreting self-selected observations, sorry. In this case there is not much of value to say.
    Don't be silly. If that were true, you'd hate yourself too You wrote in another thread: "And it should go without saying, the carefree/farsighted concept is ridiculous and without basis." (Link) It was a self-selected conclusion, backed up with no reasoning.

    My points.

    (1)
    Socionics is a series of conclusions with very few examples provided to its audience. Theories which don't provide a stockpile of evidence have to tested against our own data to check its consistency. It's all we have to try to make sense of it. That personal data prompts discussions and questions to clarify what the theory gets right and what it misses. That's how growth happens, when you notice what's missing. Notice that, at this point, I've explained what should be obvious to most LIIs without accusing you of not being LII.

    (2) Theories have to hold up against reality if they want to be taken seriously. That is the reason for Socionics' existence, to explain reality, to be used in reality to help make decisions for our lives. So if someone starts a discussion based on their "self-selected observations." no matter how misguided or incorrect it is, it is still an attempt to understand what's going on, to explore the subtleties of the theory. You're entitled to having strong opinions against it. But, to think that those observations should hold no merit? That's so strange. Why should anyone follow a theory without testing it themselves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Didn't read everything, but LSI ime are often work hard, play hard. Can be workaholics and immersed in their work to exclusion of everything else for long periods, but when they let go and it's time to socialize, have fun and travel, they really let go and light up in the right company. They can often be very charismatic and loud at parties telling hilarious stories and make for entertaining and generous hosts. You can see how much they enjoy good company.They have interesting polarity to them in this way. About hobbies I wouldn't know in general, but many do have them and have strong interests beside work.
    I agree this seems to be the case with the LSIs I know. But it's different than what the original poster described.

    Many LSIs I know did go to the best schools and were also quite competitive in sports. Some managed then to start a great careers, others were less successful, but there seemed to be a focus on achievment for all of them. Their perspective seems to be more similar to what Myst said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I agree this seems to be the case with the LSIs I know. But it's different than what the original poster described.

    Many LSIs I know did go to the best schools and were also quite competitive in sports. Some managed then to start a great careers, others were less successful, but there seemed to be a focus on achievment for all of them. Their perspective seems to be more similar to what Myst said.
    Yeah, it's similar to what @Myst described, not so much to the OP describtion. OP describes it as much more carefree and with emphasis on work as only a means to an end to hedonistic persuits, which is usually not the case ime. LSI's do find career and professional achievements of big importance. They're also usually sporty and competitive, as you said (martial arts seem to be popular with them).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    Thanks for sharing your perspective as LSI-D!
    Np


    Your two modes make sense to me. I do something similar. I'm sure our ideas of fun activities vary because I'm Se PoLR whereas you're Se creative, but the gist of it is the same. That's interesting.
    Hm, yeah, I don't know if it's a D thing.


    About ambition and grandiose: there's a distinct difference between having achievable dreams and having grandiose dreams, but lacking the ability/energy to make it happen. So, if you pursue activities which reap more rewards, then is your ambition really less? The way I see it, if potential energy is converted to kinetic energy (no matter how long it takes), it counts for something. Otherwise, what is it worth?
    When I said it's less ambitious I meant I don't think of a certain type of ideas. I'm not sure how to sum up what these are like, other than them requiring imagination because they are not ideas you can see without that. It's not simply, take what's actually there and go for the win in that area - which is more my way of setting goals by default. These ideas are more far-flung so to speak. However, they are still ideas that some people do actually put into reality, I didn't mean just daydreaming there. Of course many of these people may fail at it too but they do try at least to achieve them anyway. And that is kind of cool. Yeah if they end up failing then you could say they lacked ability or energy, sure. All in all, I wasn't saying that my approach is not worth anything, my goals and my achievements, they are definitely nontrivial to achieve and are worth quite something for sure. It's just not that very grandiose stuff that I mention above. It's a different approach. Like you said, the goal has a higher chance too to be actually achieved when you do my way of setting and reaching goals. Obviously that's a good thing like you said. And to be clear, again, I was not intending to devalue my things with this at all, thanks though.

    Let me add, I do sometimes try to think of one of these grandiose goals myself, a certain one that I've had come up again and again, but my sense of realism always shoots it down lol. Again not saying that's a bad thing or anything like that. Like I also don't want to say that those people who tried a bit at the grandiose goals and failed eventually suck. Otoh if someone just daydreams and never tries, that does suck IMO lol.


    No, it's a strength. But if someone is doing highly physical dangerous activity, I'd expect them to feel the urge to be cautious. However, as a 3D Si/4D Se type, he probably knew what level of physical activity he could handle in that condition, and how his physical environment would impact him. I hadn't considered his understanding of his own skills when I originally wrote about him.

    From what I've seen, people who experience panic attacks or anxiety attacks seem to want to time off after that. Maybe it's because they don't know how to handle their bodies and balance their emotions. That itself could, arguably, be the cause of the problem.
    Exactly. I evaluate such body stuff easily and what's more, I can also manage it beyond just evaluating it. I think we can safely assume that that person also did it that way. But I do know crazy people (they happen to be Ni egos) that will just push on without this ability... it can end up bad for them a bit if not lucky.


    That's a good question. For example, LSI 20-something woman liked being the pursuer. She liked the feeling of victory in her sexual hunts. Being pursued bored her. She liked finding men who needed to be persuaded, who weren't easy catches.
    Persuade about? I won't bother with someone if they need emotional persuasion. It's me who has to be persuaded in the emotional sense lol. As for the physical part of it, that's easier, sure.


    She sort of idolized her SLE father, and his style of relationships (date around, never commit). She liked having a stable of FWBs, but that's not type related, is it? My impression was that stems from her relationship with her father. Her mother had been out of the picture for a long time, so he was the main parental figure around.
    Wow I don't relate to any of this, at all. I guess yeah not type related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Yeah, it's similar to what @Myst described, not so much to the OP describtion. OP describes it as much more carefree and with emphasis on work as only a means to an end to hedonistic persuits, which is usually not the case ime. LSI's do find career and professional achievements of big importance. They're also usually sporty and competitive, as you said (martial arts seem to be popular with them).
    I wonder if OP was just describing it from some Si POV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I agree this seems to be the case with the LSIs I know. But it's different than what the original poster described.

    Many LSIs I know did go to the best schools and were also quite competitive in sports. Some managed then to start a great careers, others were less successful, but there seemed to be a focus on achievment for all of them. Their perspective seems to be more similar to what Myst said.
    Interesting. I have no doubt they were focused on their achievements, but was it their primary purpose? That's what I'm trying to address. I have two questions for you.

    (1) What was their DCNH subtype? If your personal examples are all Dominant, for example, we're talking about different categories of people. That was why I asked if Ds were different. As Myst has shown, they are. I'm guessing Pole is D too, being enneagram 8.

    (2) How close are you to them? Do they share their personal thoughts and deeper priorities with you? Because, if we're talking about two different levels of information access, again, there's going to be a difference in how we interpret them. I'm (1) talking about non-D subtype people (2) who went to ivy league schools and work in silicon valley, or got top secret clearances for challenging jobs after getting two degrees (3) while also having had access to their inner thought process. On the surface, they appeared to be achievement oriented too, which is why I was always surprised to discover their primary purpose in life is a serious dedication to recreational activities like the ones I mentioned in my first post: martial arts, dance, hunting, etc.


    _____



    The interesting thing I noticed in some of the LSIs I mentioned is that at some point (often at age 28+), they realized that others turned similar/same recreational activities into careers or businesses. They tried to figure out if they could do that too, first as a little source of side cash, then eventually as full time income (assuming the income was enough). After all, (1) years of serious dedication means they have honed the skills for it, (2) that work is way more fun and fulfilling for them, and (3) fun can pay their bills. It takes them a while to make that happen (and there's a noticeable amount of Ne internal tension involved), but if they pull it off, they go through a mini transformation. While they were probably relatively confident before, the process of change tests them. Afterwards, it's more like a glowing, happy confidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    That's why you assume that there are sociotypes which will be less aware of fun. How could emotionally healthy people not be aware of what they enjoy?
    Yeah, some people may have less focus on fun (being more work-focused naturally) but if healthy, they would still be capable of having fun too.

    This does fit me though in the way @thehotelambush stated it: "not typically attentive to whether they are enjoying things".

    No, when I'm in work mode, I'm definitely not attentive to that. And it's actually a good thing that I am not attentive to that. Some people would find some of the stuff very tedious that I actually do without a problem without feeling it's tedious. Precisely because I don't pay attention to whether it should feel like fun or not.

    This "work mode" is separate from the "fun mode" where I'm able to enjoy things and where I definitely am aware of fun.

    When I'm less balanced (so, less healthy), I will forget about the second mode (fun) for too long and it will be harder to get back into it. And it might have a correlation to type and might be caused by my default ways for cognition that I can get imbalanced in this way.

    But I do agree with your general point otherwise.


    If you interacted and observed, you'd see that there are variations in most types including LSIs and LIIs.
    Yeah there are variations for which a lot of other psychological and non-psychological variables are responsible...

    I don't think thehotelambush is unaware of that. I think it's more like he just overuses the theory model where other approach would be better. But I think this mistake happens to most people when they are trying to explain things with Socionics that they could not previously understand. Then hopefully with time, they manage to get a fully relevant explanation developed, going past Socionics for those things.

    Personally, I don't try to use Socionics's general models (model A and whatever) as a standalone model to explain anything anymore. It just does not work in that way. I took the valid concepts and I put them together with other understandings from outside the Socionics model. So for example, if I note something about my emotional life, I can say "this is Fe DS manifested in X mechanism under Y condition". Where X mechanism and Y condition are taken from non-socionics understandings/frameworks. I can't simply say "this is Fe DS in Socionics." That would simply be an inadequate explanation. Make sense?

    Oh and more on how it'd be inadequate... It'd be like, me taking this very general construction (of a concept) and pull it on top of a lot of other (more concrete) things (e.g. specific psychological mechanisms, internal happenings, thinking patterns, external behaviours) and hiding those other things. And then I'd be only seeing that "roof" of the Socionics concept and not what's under this "roof" - not those many other things awaiting a real targeted explanation that's actually usable too for something. The "roof" as a construction delineates certain aspects of a framework for those things in a pretty sensible (valid) way but it does not offer a way to actually see and explain the things in detail and in a usable way beyond that.

    Again, I hope this vague image made sense. It's just something that came to me recently and I thought it was a nice illustration of how I experience the issues with explanatory power of such a general Socionics model.


    Don't be silly. If that were true, you'd hate yourself too You wrote in another thread: "And it should go without saying, the carefree/farsighted concept is ridiculous and without basis." (Link) It was a self-selected conclusion, backed up with no reasoning.


    He probably does have reasoning for it if you ask him for it. Us Ti-leads can forget to add the reasoning if not asked for it. : p

    But yeah, there is danger of cherrypicking with the attitude he stated as having. Which is what I was hinting at in my post above to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    How close are you to them? Do they share their personal thoughts and deeper priorities with you? Because, if we're talking about two different levels of information access, again, there's going to be a difference in how we interpret them. I'm (1) talking about non-D subtype people (2) who went to ivy league schools and work in silicon valley, or got top secret clearances for challenging jobs after getting two degrees (3) while also having had access to their inner thought process. On the surface, they appeared to be achievement oriented too, which is why I was always surprised to discover their primary purpose in life is a serious dedication to recreational activities like the ones I mentioned in my first post: martial arts, dance, hunting, etc.
    Honestly, that to me is weird af the way it's put. If I were you, I'd want to figure out why they had the ambition or drive for these achievements, if disregarding the hobbies now. Why did they decide to put in so much time and effort to go to a top school and do these challenging top jobs? (Edit: see below for my own approach to this sort of thing.) It simply makes zero sense to me as it is put now. You said you forgot some details that the LSI told you in that convo of you two. Idk if that'd give it more of a context or an explanation for the motive.

    Also, as far as this would be type related according to Socionics's model, are those recreational activities entirely hedonistic non-competitive activities for them?


    The interesting thing I noticed in some of the LSIs I mentioned is that at some point (often at age 28+), they realized that others turned similar/same recreational activities into careers or businesses. They tried to figure out if they could do that too, first as a little source of side cash, then eventually as full time income (assuming the income was enough). After all, (1) years of serious dedication means they have honed the skills for it, (2) that work is way more fun and fulfilling for them, and (3) fun can pay their bills. It takes them a while to make that happen (and there's a noticeable amount of Ne internal tension involved), but if they pull it off, they go through a mini transformation. While they were probably relatively confident before, the process of change tests them. Afterwards, it's more like a glowing, happy confidence.
    OK the one thing that makes me think of is, when I was younger (end of teenager years), I would not really know what to do with myself other than having the general ambition of doing well, going to that top university and get a good job from that and stuff like that. (Not far-reaching grandiose stuff though, like I explained that before.) It took time to see what had more meaning than that. I dunno, if you want to make it Socionics, say that the original ambition was the Se ego competitive drive and then over time the Ni/Fe understanding to give meaning to stuff would be discovered too.

    Actually, to be more precise here, at the end of my teenager years I was already entering a transition to the Superid discovery (and actually, I see my own mind's contents decently well with this one after a lot of introspection and analysis, so I'm ok with calling it Superid), so I did pick the top university simply because it was top, but I already had thoughts on how the goal of finishing at that university with a great degree with top grades would be added to a further reaching meaningful direction. (But still concrete and realistic without going grandiose with it. Still, more meaning than just the motivation of "do well and beat others". Which will always remain an important drive too, of course.) It just was still quite vague as to what would be meaningful, I could not elaborate on it back then.

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    I personally don't believe in DCNH.

    Those guys and girls do not work in silicon valletta but have good Jobs all over Europe (we don't have that Ivy School thing)
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    @Audacious You seem to have completely missed the point of everything I was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Audacious View Post
    @thehotelambush

    When you comment (for example, in this thread), I get the sad impression that you rarely bond with a variety of people in real life (or even people watch). So, you have no chance to observe the differences in people which are not listed in the theory's descriptions. That's why you assume that there are sociotypes which will be less aware of fun. How could emotionally healthy people not be aware of what they enjoy?

    If you interacted and observed, you'd see that there are variations in most types including LSIs and LIIs. The inconsistency between the theory and reality would feel like a rash in your mind. You'd think, "but what about X? What about Y? The theory doesn't address these exceptions. I wonder what explains the gap. Maybe (few possibilities). But if that is the case, wouldn't (other factors) also have to be true? Let me see if the reasoning can hold up with the new input." That's what my mind does instinctively. Doesn't yours?
    Nowhere am I denying the existence of intratype variation. What I have a problem with is your interpretation, which is essentially backwards to socionic theory.

    Notice also that I described what is the typical LSI perspective (I used this word multiple times). Obviously, if you only provide a small amount of information (and are presenting it as characteristic of a type) one has to work with that and make any conclusions based off of that. What did you did provide is not consistent with socionic theory (more so your self-observations than the LSI ones, to be honest).

    If you think socionic theory is wrong (that is, that there exist exceptions that contradict the basic theory), then what are you even doing here?

    Anyway, we have things like DCNH to explain the differences in behavior. A Harmonizing LSI is unlikely to be a reservoir of ambition. A D-LSI is going to be different. That was why I asked that question about D-LSI in my first post.
    DCNH is essentially a way to water down the basic claims of socionics - which your post exemplifies beautifully. It's an easy way out for people who don't want to do the hard thinking you need to do to resolve any contradictions inside of the basic theory.

    Don't be silly. If that were true, you'd hate yourself too You wrote in another thread: "[COLOR=#333333]And it should go without saying, the carefree/farsighted concept is ridiculous and without basis." (Link) It was a self-selected conclusion, backed up with no reasoning.
    WTF? I said self-selected observations, meaning when somebody tells me a single fact about themselves and asks what it means in terms of socionics.

    My stance on the Reinin dichotomies is entirely based on empirical observation of people I have met in my life, and many other socionists have come to the same conclusion - the Reinin dichotomies are not accurately described. I said "it goes without saying" because I and so many others have said this countless times before.

    (1) Socionics is a series of conclusions with very few examples provided to its audience. Theories which don't provide a stockpile of evidence have to tested against our own data to check its consistency. It's all we have to try to make sense of it. That personal data prompts discussions and questions to clarify what the theory gets right and what it misses. That's how growth happens, when you notice what's missing. Notice that, at this point, I've explained what should be obvious to most LIIs without accusing you of not being LII.


    This is all trivially obvious to me - my views on socionics have grown substantially over the last 12 years.

    We obviously disagree on certain particular characterizations of the types, this kind of meta-mumbo jumbo is besides the point. Most likely we would type people in very different ways that are consistent with our theoretical interpretations - the question is simply which interpretation explains the most data. From your comments it seems that you don't find your interpretation of socionics to explain very much at all.

    (2) Theories have to hold up against reality if they want to be taken seriously. That is the reason for Socionics' existence, to explain reality, to be used in reality to help make decisions for our lives. So if someone starts a discussion based on their "self-selected observations." no matter how misguided or incorrect it is, it is still an attempt to understand what's going on, to explore the subtleties of the theory. You're entitled to having strong opinions against it. But, to think that those observations should hold no merit? That's so strange. Why should anyone follow a theory without testing it themselves?
    I didn't say they "hold no merit".

    What I should have said is that I don't like being forced to interpret self-selected observations.
    If somebody is sort of rambling on about themselves and gives lots of information about themselves in a spontaneous way, usually something type-related will pop up. This is the point of a questionnaire -- which obviously I find merit in, as I've analyzed countless questionnaires on this site.

    The issue is, an isolated self-observation may not really say anything in itself. Someone who is less competent than @Myst at objective analysis also might also subtly frame it in a misleading way, or even present observations that are flat-out wrong.

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