Religious and cult leaders
Abraham: SEE1w2 sx/so (ENFJ)
Moses: SEE
Jesus: ESI
Mohammed: SLE1w2 sx/sp (ENTJ)
Siddharta Gautama: ILI1w9 so/sx (INFJ)
Laozi: ILI
Confucius: EIE
Aleister Crowley: IEI4w5 sx/sp (INTP)
Helena Blavatsky: ILI
Anton LaVey: SLE
Michael Aquino: IEI
Ayn Rand: ILI1w2 sx/sp (INTJ)
L. Ron Hubbard: EIE
Last edited by Aleksei; 10-22-2010 at 02:21 PM.
What do these signs mean—,
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Ayn Rand: LSI
Confucius: ESI > EII (so
Laozi: um SEI? IEI?
Buddha: LSE or SLI
Jesus: SEE (maybe ESI)
No way Moses is SEE. He's the reluctant leader. I would guess intuitive introvert.
Moses' story: gets pissed off, kills taskmaster for whipping his fellow Hebrew, gets put on trial by his adoptive father, kills his would-be executioners, runs off, kills some shepherds trying to drive Midianite girls away from a well, marries one of said girls, goes back to Egypt, petitions the Pharaoh to LET HIS PEOPLE GOOOOOO, starts a reign of terror across Egypt. Hardly a reluctant leader. More a crazy badass.
And note, his reluctance wasn't "I can't lead." It was "I have poorer speaking abilities than my brother Aaron, and how would I manage to go about leading them?" That is to say, he was using Te - concerned about how he'd go about doing it, the efficient workings of it. So then the mack daddy in the sky goes "move it, bitch, I'll figure it out as I go along."
Confucius's personal stories seem quite
I do agree on LSI for Rand though.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Exodus 3:11 - “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?”Originally Posted by Aleksei
My impression is that the whole way he was concerned that he wouldn't be a good leader - his speech impediment was kind of an excuse that he brings up later. He's a scaredy cat - God is pushing him along and telling him what to do the whole way.
idk, what source is that?Confucius's personal stories seem quite
Oops - I was mixing up Laozi with Zhuangzi. I generally see Buddhism and Daoism asSimilarly, Siddharta Gautama seems ridiculously Ni. Laozi could have been IEI or ILI - the only thing really apparent was Ni. He was no SEI, though.philosophies - about balance and harmony. Where is the
I don't see any sign that he's afraid - he was certainly not afraid of murdering the taskmaster, or his would-be executioner, or those shepherds. He seems, rather, concerned about how it would work, and God seemed to be hushing him up about it.
Read it somewhere years ago -- can't find it right now. I did find something that points to Si-PoLR though:idk, what source is that?
The whole giving up your wife to ZOMGZACCOMPLISHMYGOALSSSSSS sounds excruciatingly xIE. The paragraph itself sounds LIE, but the pranks add up to EIE.Confucius loved learning and teaching. At age fifteen he dedicated himself to study.3 When he was twenty-three, his mother died, and it was after this that he turned his attention to teaching. That same year he divorced his wife of four years in order to free himself for his academic pursuits. Confucius became well known in the province of Lu and acquired a number of loyal followers who traveled with him around the state.
More than that, they're about removing oneself from the world - about surrendering one's essence to the grand whole (in the case of Buddhism) or wuwei/complete neutrality and non-action (in the case of Taoism), about not caring about earthly sensory pursuits. Si cares about earthly comfort and pleasure in a way inconsistent with ignoring earthly comfort entirely.Oops - I was mixing up Laozi with Zhuangzi. I generally see Buddhism and Daoism as
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
If you're trying to argue that Moses was an impulsive, aggressive person because he murdered some people, I just can't see it; there is no evidence for it. Look at the passage where he murders the taskmaster:
11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, “Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?” 14 The man said, “Who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid and thought, “What I did must have become known.”
He looks around to make sure no one is there. Not to say that this proves much, but it doesn't portray an aggressive, impulsive person. Instead Moses is always careful and tentative, asking God questions all the time.
Idk, that's pretty thin. Confucius' philosophy is all about being polite and cultivating relationships. E.g.,The whole giving up your wife to ZOMGZACCOMPLISHMYGOALSSSSSS sounds excruciatingly xIE. The paragraph itself sounds LIE, but the pranks add up to EIE.
Fi, Te >>> FeThe Master said, “To rule a country of a thousand chariots, there must be reverent attention to business, and sincerity; economy in expenditure, and love for men; and the employment of the people at the proper seasons.”
The Master said, “A youth, when at home, should be filial, and, abroad, respectful to his elders. He should be earnest and truthful. He should overflow in love to all, and cultivate the friendship of the good. When he has time and opportunity, after the performance of these things, he should employ them in polite studies.”
Also, ren.
This is an interesting point. It seems that in spiritual pursuits one can divide an information element into a gross form and a spiritual form. In Buddhism, earthly sensory pursuits are abandoned *because* they cannot help one to attain balance, harmony, and temperance (think Middle Way). The mere fact that they are discussed so much in Buddhism makes me think thatMore than that, they're about removing oneself from the world - about surrendering one's essence to the grand whole (in the case of Buddhism) or wuwei/complete neutrality and non-action (in the case of Taoism), about not caring about earthly sensory pursuits. Si cares about earthly comfort and pleasure in a way inconsistent with ignoring earthly comfort entirely.in an essential way.
Althrough Taoism speaks about being "unconcerned" about earthly comfort and pleasure, ignoring earthly comfort and pleasure is a form of concern about earthly comfort and pleasure. So without concern is to neither concern or be unconcerned and to not have a attachment to things such as this. If there is suffering, persevere, if there is pleasure, enjoy. Or do as you wish. Taoism is not a prescriptive religion, so it has no tenets to speak of and any tenets to speak of.
The sage is supposed to understand the Tao but this is really merely a symbol for the universe and the world around us. Taoism is a irrational Ti/Fe leaning belief system. There are no rules or codes of conduct only one's own sensibilities and perceptions.
Jung was actually very interested in Taoism and his ideas about personality influenced by Tao. He said "Personality is Tao".
This is a very important passage in Taoist philosophy as far as personality because it focuses on people and the kinds of people, it even evaluates them.
The problem of the Tao Te Jing is that the text is subject to many-fold interpretations, so really you can read it how you want.
As far as the information elements that the Tao Te Jing directly devalues in this particular translation, it's Ni/Se and Fi/Te but the way it is written, it is subject to many interpretations and of course misconceptions including thinking that being unconcerned about something means ignoring it. Does it really?
If there is a primary concern with Taoism it is about understanding the real, doing what is necessarily, and dealing with a very subjective form of the world.
Wu-wei is about Si as it gets because it is about natural action, rather then inaction.
The Tao Te Ching is a Gamma/Delta philosophy. If you try to practice it, no matter the interpretation you will end up with Gamma/Delta values.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
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My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
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Fidei Defensor
Then why are the people who practice it drunks, poets, martial artists, hedonists and such?
Bruce Lee, Li Bai, Gu Long, etc etc etc. The people that have practiced Taoism are hardly Gamma or Delta, but rather alpha and beta.
That says nothing of their values(well maybe in an existentialist way, but not theoretically). When you really feel what the material is saying...being one with nature and just acting in accordance with the forces...That's what it is - balancing the forces of nature. You don't have to be a mystic living in the woods to do that. That ideology can be applied to any practice.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
Taoism is about not having values, not making the distinction between high and low and good and evil. And it does apply to any practice which is why there really is no practice. It's a carefree, live and let live way of being. Just do whatever you feel like.
Exactly, Ni/Se and Te/Fi-Si/Ne values. Alpha and Beta are too imposing.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
Nothing about Gamma or Delta advocate this form of practice.
ESI is called "Conservator"?
As a whole the philosophy is irrational and Ti-Fe valuing. There are some irrationals in Gamma and Deltas that can feel a affection for Taoism, but often they will practice something more like Zen then Taoism.
Alpha quadra values are more or less live and let live so it would seem wierd that Alpha would be too "imposing".
What types for (the Biblical) Jesus, Muhammad...Joan of Arc? I had accepted EIE for all three.
I think Muhammad had full blown narcissistic personality disorder. He only wanted conquer all land, murder all opposition, subordinate women and marry underaged girls. It was all about him.
A religion based on fear and control has the same dynamics as a household run by a narcissist. It's bad news.
Wouldn't you say Muhammad was more of a psychopath than a narcissus?
As far as I know, Muhammad "only" married one prepubescent girl.
Ayn Rand: SLI
L. Ron Hubbard: SLE
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
It depends on the biographer's point of view, I would think.
It is probably almost impossible to accurately type the cognitive functions of most ancient historical figures since history keeps rewriting itself through the different perspectives of those who record it. It's fun to try though.
Joan EIE 1w2 sx/so
Jesus EIE 1w9 so/sp.coolside sx/so - strong sx, strong soc, weak sp. pulls from so/sp secondary, political activist streak, 'cooled' by soc with some intellectual reserve, channels sx into social causes.
My ideas might change later but I would put both in beta and Ni in the ego for now.so/sp cordial (midrange) - the classic or 'true' so/sp, not likely to be mistaken for either so/sx nor sp/so. the most wide reaching and moderate of the ranges; friendly but not ingratiating, anchored by a larger sense of community but not at the expense of delicate alliances. more verbal than the formal range but less sociable than warmsiders; have a strong sense of fairness and equality, though an academic or careerist bent may come off as elitist. the journalist, the globalist, the egalitarian. obama, bob costas, mike wallace, al gore, hillary clinton, steve nash.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
You gotta look at how they for m societies in order to get their types right. Someone like Ayn rand doesn't change society but talks about it while l. Ron Hubbard marketed his product heavily thus making him not a delta
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Muḥammad ﷺ: L.I.I (mb)
Last edited by welcometomania; 11-12-2022 at 11:11 AM.
In before people start calling Muhammad a warlord and typing him SLE.
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