ILE-ENTp weaknesses

[Exodus]

Sorry, but this is just the kind of thing that makes an ENTp run away screaming.

[Jimbean]

ENTp's have a tendency to mis-value thoughts and objects that occur in reality. They may either overestimate or underestimate an obstacle when achieving whatever goal.

[Gilly]

When is it going to click that you are Beta ST?

[Jimbean]

When is it going to click that you are Beta ST?

For now, just ignore the type that I am.

What I said was true if you think about it, because as you know the ILE has weak Fi, so they will end up not evaluating consequences very well unless they take the extra time to foresee what will happen.

[Creepy-pokeball]

This is my ENTp friend. The weakness, to me, is the sheer volume of energy used when I use a lot less. It is just needless except when we are directly interacting.

Here is an online example:

-------------------------

[14:00] qLir: I was king of the mountain =/
[14:00] qLir: as always
[14:00] qLir: made $120 betting people I could beat them to the bottom lawl
[14:00] qLir: I'm rich =/
[14:00] qLir: its more fun when you bet
[15:11] qLir: lol
[15:11] qLir: FP is best in TDA
[15:11] qLir: unless best hero is pugna or something
[15:11] qLir: or VS
[15:11] qLir: or veno...
[15:11] qLir: most important heroes are the early owners
[15:11] qLir: lesh/warlock best
[15:12] qLir: since they can push, gank, and win lanes
[15:12] qLir: zeus is ok but not as good a solo
[15:12] qLir: and not like
[15:12] qLir: going orange normally
[15:12] qLir: normally the best player is the last
[15:12] qLir: because they call out hero picks
[15:13] qLir: to pick best heroes at start, then pick a combination of the best complementary heroes and best counter heroes depending on your initial picks and enemy picks.
[15:13] qLir: and then team -swaps to their liking
[15:13] qLir: like
[15:13] qLir: you can specialize
[15:13] qLir: if you're in a captains game where teams are picked
[15:13] qLir: and you pick 1 carry player, 1 wards player, then 3 lane/gank/team fight players
[15:13] qLir: or tank
[15:13] qLir: w/e
[15:14] qLir: or 1 solo player
[15:14] qLir: etc
[15:14] qLir: but likely
[15:14] qLir: they won't be picking the heroes they'll be playing
[15:14] qLir: of course there are exceptions
[15:15] qLir: like if you have me you pick spec over certain other carries that might be more situational (generally spec is the best all around carry anyway tho...)
[15:16] qLir: and if you have yoshi you take weaver over some possible better carries if your team doesn't have a only good for wards hero like pugna/lich/veno/VS
[15:16] qLir: or a solo
[15:16] qLir: slash a solo that doesn't lane well
[15:17] qLir: or if you have vigoss you basically build around a late razor pick
[15:17] qLir: ofc that can be countered by the other team taking the preferred solo
[15:18] qLir: but generally that doesn't work because it's taking a solo way early then and vigoss playing a different solo/carry (unless none are available) will beat someone not as good as him at razor playing a hero worse than the best avialable
[15:18] qLir: saying that cuz I just played lock
[15:18] qLir: and it was so easy
[15:18] qLir: soloing some CAL-O SF lol
[15:18] qLir: my ally gave up FB
[15:19] qLir: but I was lvl 8 when he was 5
[15:19] qLir: and got a bunch of kills on him
[15:19] qLir: plus easy offlane ganks when ult was up and he was already healing
[15:19] qLir: anyway
[15:19] qLir: time to go do my last minute christmas shopping lol
[16:23] qLir: gay
[16:29] Jade: hi
[16:29] Jade: just got off work...had to go into today
[17:18] qLir: lol
[17:18] qLir: nice
[17:18] qLir: I went skiing
[17:19] qLir: that's almost like work
[17:19] Jade: ah?
[17:19] qLir: except the opposite
[17:19] Jade: lol fucker
[17:19] qLir: ah? btw
[17:19] qLir: ?
[17:19] qLir: you didn't get my spam?
[17:20] qLir: want to play?
[17:20] qLir: just played a weird ass game
[17:20] qLir: team picked 4 solos lol
[17:20] qLir: warlock, leshrac (me), ench, and...
[17:20] qLir: I can't even remember the last useless hero
[17:20] Jade: meh maybe one then I gotta go to Craigs for xmas
[17:21] qLir: ...it's christmas eve
[17:21] Jade: let me get some food rq, k?
[17:21] qLir: wtf
[17:21] Jade: ya but
[17:21] Jade: family tomorrow
[17:21] Jade: his family tonight
[17:21] Jade: I have to play son for two families
[17:22] qLir: oh destroyer
[17:22] qLir: I laned with him and I didn't even remember him

---------------

(it goes on...) I think this relates to what I feel when Im around my other ENTp friend irl. He is a good drinking buddy, but I can never make the proper connection with him. He always feels like he could be around anyone, and there is no sense of friendship loyalty. My close INTj buddy is similar, but Im in his distinct core of "near-family" that there is loyalty. But if I was a casual friend, I doubt that would be the case at all.

[Lotus]

ENTPs and those who are observant of ENTPs, please list their weaknesses/vulnerabilities.

This will help me and others help you ENTPS do what the best you can because we really care about you. For instance my weakness is that I don't know how to flirt, but ENTPs before you twist that, list your weaknesses..be accurate because I care about you.

wtf?

Wow. I sat here for like, 3 minutes trying to come up with a list. But then I got nothing.
Not trying to say I have no weaknesses... but it's harder than it seems to just list them.
I think I need quiet contemplation time.

[Mediator Kam]

ILE have no weak.

[Jimbean]

Okay, it is very very simple. Fi POLR means that Fi takes the least precedence in one's thinking. ENTp's do not readily evaluate the morals of what they are doing. I have seen ENTp's do things that are immoral and not even realize it, such as convincing other people to do something upon jumping to some half-assed conclusion.

[Sabo]

I don't think ENTps ignore morals. Rather, the ENTps I've known tend to develop their internal ethical systems to which they compare their actions. So while ENTps generally try to act ethical by their own standards, they don't think about the fact that their moral system is different than that of society, which causes them to unwittingly act in ways that others see as unethical. This is different than just ignoring ethics altogether.

The flip side of this ethical independence is that because ENTps tend to develop their own internal moral codes and remain oblivious, indifferent, more even contemptuous towards the ethical code of society at large, they are more easily able to modify their ethical code to justify unethical behavior in their own eyes ... to some extent, that is.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I don't think ENTps ignore morals. Rather, the ENTps I've known tend to develop their internal ethical systems to which they compare their actions. So while ENTps generally try to act ethical by their own standards, they don't think about the fact that their moral system is different than that of society, which causes them to unwittingly act in ways that others see as unethical. This is different than just ignoring ethics altogether.

The flip side of this ethical independence is that because ENTps tend to develop their own internal moral codes and remain oblivious, indifferent, more even contemptuous towards the ethical code of society at large, they are more easily able to modify their ethical code to justify unethical behavior in their own eyes ... to some extent, that is.

I would say that that is a fair composition of many, but not all, alpha NTs. Or as my really close INTj friend would say to me, "I cant be bothered with such crap." haha

[Blaze]

we da man lol

[Lotus]

So while ENTps generally try to act ethical by their own standards, they don't think about the fact that their moral system is different than that of society

I disagree.
Everyone knows their society's version of right and wrong, however, it is one's own choice to follow the moral code.
Maybe some types are more likely to follow these ethical standards because they never question whether it makes sense to them.

Ethical standards are just opinions.
If something seems right to me, and I can back it up with logic, then it is right.

[Sabo]

Ok, it's not that they don't know that what they're doing doesn't fit in with society's ethical standards. It's that they really don't care. I agree 100% with what you're saying about society's moral standards and logically questioning the supposed dichotomy between "right" and "wrong" -- but I think ENTps sometimes don't see how other people will react to this independence of thought and can end up in sticky situations because of it.

Mind you, I'm not saying this ethical independence is bad. Personally, I think if everyone could logically conclude the right thing to do on a situational basis, the world would be a lot better off.

Maybe this is just me + the other ENTps I have known. It seems type-related though.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Ok, it's not that they don't know that what they're doing doesn't fit in with society's ethical standards. It's that they really don't care. I agree 100% with what you're saying about society's moral standards and logically questioning the supposed dichotomy between "right" and "wrong" -- but I think ENTps sometimes don't see how other people will react to this independence of thought and can end up in sticky situations because of it.

Mind you, I'm not saying this ethical independence is bad. Personally, I think if everyone could logically conclude the right thing to do on a situational basis, the world would be a lot better off.

Maybe this is just me + the other ENTps I have known. It seems type-related though.

Ive seen INTjs think similarly, like I stated above. However, multiple alpha NTs can just as easily conclude something differently from one another. So, who is "right"? It's a never ending societal battle imo.

[Exodus]

I'm right. Duh.

[Gilly]

For now, just ignore the type that I am.

What I said was true if you think about it, because as you know the ILE has weak Fi, so they will end up not evaluating consequences very well unless they take the extra time to foresee what will happen.

Man, you're describing Super-ID Ni right here.

[lefty]

Yeah I know this, an ENTP once blindly lied to me just to prove he's right and then I printed out an email of him stating otherwise. His face then turned red and then I forced him to fix the problem he created and I was right next to him physically, hurting him making him do more and more things.

well i'm sure i speak for everyone when i say that you're a nutjob and we all feel sorry for that entp and had we been their would have kicked your ass in his honor.

[lefty]

Okay, it is very very simple. Fi POLR means that Fi takes the least precedence in one's thinking. ENTp's do not readily evaluate the morals of what they are doing. I have seen ENTp's do things that are immoral and not even realize it, such as convincing other people to do something upon jumping to some half-assed conclusion.

Disagreed....
"Necessity is the mother of invention."

[lefty]

I don't think ENTps ignore morals. Rather, the ENTps I've known tend to develop their internal ethical systems to which they compare their actions. So while ENTps generally try to act ethical by their own standards, they don't think about the fact that their moral system is different than that of society, which causes them to unwittingly act in ways that others see as unethical. This is different than just ignoring ethics altogether.

The flip side of this ethical independence is that because ENTps tend to develop their own internal moral codes and remain oblivious, indifferent, more even contemptuous towards the ethical code of society at large, they are more easily able to modify their ethical code to justify unethical behavior in their own eyes ... to some extent, that is.

This rings of Eliot Spitzer the Gov. of NY who tried to impliment drivers licenses for illegal immigrants in ny. He's just ahead of his time and I think really a supreme alpha male. He's a total genius.

[Blaze]

ILE weaknesses:

Se-related. too much forcefulness for the situation. dragging their feet about doing something mundane that could just be gotten done and over with. running out of gas for a project mid-way.

Fi-related. acting like an asshole. being inconsiderate. saying whatever comes to mind without thinking about how people will feel.

these are the main ones for weaker functions.

others include at times being naive. too much brainstorming and flitting from idea to idea.

[Sabo]

Se-related. too much forcefulness for the situation. dragging their feet about doing something mundane that could just be gotten done and over with. running out of gas for a project mid-way.

Totally. The first one I hadn't noticed before, but I can relate (maybe a little weak Fi mixed in there too?). The second two are typical behavior for all the ENTps I know. Also related to Se -- ENTps tend to overreact to people putting pressure on them.

This rings of Eliot Spitzer the Gov. of NY who tried to impliment drivers licenses for illegal immigrants in ny. He's just ahead of his time and I think really a supreme alpha male. He's a total genius.

Interesting - I hadn't heard about that. It's a cool idea, but I'm guessing it got shot down pretty quickly...

[Lotus]

i have a friend ENTP and:

-he sometimes gets pissed off and walks off and keeps a grudge on me till i appologize after which it's all ok lol
-they can be too way over the top with their attempt to "legalize" their Si aesthetics attempts and so having sometimes unaesthetic designs that are sold way to havily.
-their sometimes switch-outedness from others and it's hard to pump them up for fun.
-they expect you to keep communicating with them and if you don't call or miss expected or unexpected promises, they don't fuel themselves. perhaps due to constructivism.

I can't hold grudges at all.
It's too much work being mad at people
and I usually just get over it.
Grudges are emotionally exhausting.

And I don't understand what you mean by the 2nd and 3rd.

[Blaze]

I can't hold grudges at all.
It's too much work being mad at people
and I usually just get over it.
Grudges are emotionally exhausting.

And I don't understand what you mean by the 2nd and 3rd.

i don't understand either and i don't hold grudges.

[Suomea]

Just writing down my faults:

1) Unemployed
2) Don't think or view myself as ever being worthy of love nor do I think I ever will be
3) Anger fits..... unstable emotions
4) Inability to trust anyone except for a select few.... view everyone as out to get me
5) Very reliant on the affection of others
6) Not able to guage when I'm making others angry sometimes
7) Constantly pushing back work til the last minute
8) Constantly attracted to women (Yes, I view this as a fault due to the consistency of it makes it hard to be in a relationship)
9) Constantly doubting the morals of others, like I don't trust that there are any morals that society or people hold anymore, and that an era of chaos might be coming in the future (this is blown out of proportion, but it's what I feel inside a lot of the time right now)

Anyway, I tried if that helps....

[Lotus]

Mine:

1. I can't be sympathetic or even fake it
example: Yesterday I got a phone call that my sister fell off of a bar (gymnastics) and hit her head. When my friend asked who it was I told her my sister is in the hospital with a concussion. She yelled at me for laughing and lectured me about how serious it was. But it really didn't seem like a big deal because she's had one before. And she didn't lose too much memory this time. She can't remember anything from this week like Christmas, but that's a step up from last time when she just kept mumbling about chinese food with a blank stare.

2. I can't get work done unless I wait until the last possible minute for motivation.
ex: Most assignments are done the morning they are due.

3. I don't have any patience for people that annoy me.
ex. I'm pretty obvious (Or at least I think I am) to someone I dislike unless I'm working with them

4. I always feel like I know what's best for people and sometimes I'm wrong and don't realize it
ex. bad advice

5. I argue just to argue
ex. The people with really stubborn beliefs always annoy me, and even if I agree with them over something I'll start disagreeing and proving how wrong they are (even if they aren't) just because they piss me off

I hate describing my faults so these are the only ones I'm submitting.

[Blaze]

agree with #1.

agree with #2 to a point. i plan out how much time it will take and the time usually ends the day before.

agree with #3 to a point. if the person isn't getting what seems to be totally obvious.

#4 used to be like me.

#5 not so much.

[Lotus]

I'm cringing reading over what I wrote.

#5 is definitely my worst trait, but I honestly don't do that much anymore.

[Blaze]

I'm cringing reading over what I wrote.

#5 is definitely my worst trait, but I honestly don't do that much anymore.

why? it's not that bad. fuck it.

[Blaze]

Goodness...I honestly thought that number 1 was the worst. I mean yikes ^^; I honestly felt for your sister when I read what happened to her and I don't even know the girl! lol.

yeah...your post made me re-read the laughing part and it does seem kinda bad. oh well ILE.... always paying attention to the facts not the feelings.

[Blaze]

well (not speaking for anamericancer or anything) it's not that you don't care, it's that based on the facts - you don't expect anything bad to come out of it. like, you know she's been through it before and been fine so you expect that she would OK this time too. and she would kind of say, well, that my sis, always bumping her head in gymnastics.

but yeah this comes across as not caring.....but i'm quite sure anamericancer loves her sister very much. in a way, it reveals that anamericancer does not want to believe that anything bad would happen, because she'd be devasted if it did. almost like denial or something. and if anything did happen, she'd prolly be the first one at her side, going overboard to help.

so it's not that ILE doesn't care about people, it's more that they are out of touch with the uncaring emotional image their verbal expressions convey to others. some people might go by the image instead of what actions the ILE would really take in the situation.

[JRiddy]

I can empathize because i cannot sympathize. (Herein lies another fault: an unnatural obession with parallelism and other linguistic tricks.)

Actually I do care about people. But few know. I was asked quite recently why i chose to remain in the city in Norman, OK after I graduated from school (OU). This caught me enough off-guard to elicit a genuine response: namely, that I care about my friends here.

It came as quite a shock to many of those gathered there, who had grown accustomed to my tendency of answering questions with questions in an attempt to get them to think or argue for fun (yet another one of my ILE weaknesses). I went on, in this surprisingly vulnerable state, to let my friends know that though I can only become close to others with great effort, I still felt that they were among my closest of friends, and I would miss them all very much if I moved away.

What I mean by all this is that I don't think that ILEs don't experience meaningful relationships or feelings, but rather find them difficult and confusing. PoLR does not imply an absence of relational emotions, but a marked vulnerability when using them. In the same way, my younger brother, an IEE, will become visibly agitated when asked to systematically describe the logic behind something.

As far as some of the other faults go, procrastination, disinterest and distractibility are par for the course for ILEs. Becuase of this, any ILE who wants speed can get diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed Adderall (which is just a combination of 4 amphetemine salts).

As far as being easily annoyed by perceived slowness, this can become particulary insidious with very intelligent ILEs (as well as LIIs), but i believe it presents in less intellectually gifted ones as well. The ego block of with grants the individual very strong fluid intelligence relative to others of similar general intelligence with a different ego block. As people tend to spend much of their time with others of similar levels of intelligence, this creates a strong disparity between ILEs or LIIs and others in the time it takes to fully grasp (or "grok," as we say in the IT world) a new concept.

For example, take a few ILE geniuses: Albert Einstein, Sigmund Freud, Ashura Augusta, Adam Smith. (Yes, I realize that not everyone agrees with these typings, but I can defend them, and they illustrate my point too well to ignore.) Each one of these thinkers absorbed a wealth of existing knowledge and later spat out something entirely new. Einstein read everything he could about physics, and even used his time working at a patent office to read about others' inventions, which had largely nothing to do with advanced physics. Sigmund Freud, though perhaps more observationalist than the traditional ILE, essentially pulled psychoanalysis out of his ass. Augusta came up with socionics after becoming dissatisfied with Jung's meager work on personality, bringing in the theory of information metabolism, and synthesizing the two in an unexpected way. Adam Smith, though heavily influenced by David Hume, provided the first systematic description of economics, much of which is still considered groundbreaking today.

Then common element here is that each one of these thinkers developed a highly systematized understanding of their field from many pieces that don't seem to have a meaningful pattern. This manner of thought, which ILEs apply to any dearly-held endeavor, is both a great gift and a horrible curse. It propels our minds beyond what we or anyone ever though possible; it subjugates our hearts to a search for that selfsame fascination among those who will likely not have it.

[Creepy-bg]

yeah...your post made me re-read the laughing part and it does seem kinda bad. oh well ILE.... always paying attention to the facts not the feelings.

I giggled when I read that part
especially the part about mumbling about Chinese Food

[Not A Communist Shill]

1. I can't be sympathetic or even fake it
example: Yesterday I got a phone call that my sister fell off of a bar (gymnastics) and hit her head. When my friend asked who it was I told her my sister is in the hospital with a concussion. She yelled at me for laughing and lectured me about how serious it was. But it really didn't seem like a big deal because she's had one before. And she didn't lose too much memory this time. She can't remember anything from this week like Christmas, but that's a step up from last time when she just kept mumbling about chinese food with a blank stare.

I'm pretty certain I'm not a ENTp, but my response would be along the lines of (I tend to think such things, and I often discuss such lines of reasoning with other people - sometimes, they don't get it, and then they think I really am an asshole.

'She may have banged her head and potentially suffered permanent brain damage, but there are probably millions of people around the world who have banged their heads too - if I feel sympathetic about someone close to me, then I should logically feel sympathetic for every person in the whole world ever who has banged their head, and that is clearly absurd. I hope she is O.K., but what can I do really? Well, if I'm going to do anything, the last thing I should do is laugh...people would think I'm a real asshole. But, she's MY sister - if I don't consider it unethical to laugh at such an inappropriate time, then why should other people care? If I really found the prospect of my sister having concussion funny, then clearly I wouldn't be here - I would be whacking my sister around the head with a crowbar. Though, if I said that, they might counter this and say the only reason I am not doing this is because I don't want to go to prison. Maybe I should make a joke about how they are only my friends out of my own selfish interest? (i.e. because I like them...do they really think I would be friends with people I don't like?). Fuckers...look at their faces of grave concern! I suppose I should pretend to be sad....fuck, clear that thought...it's too funny.'

Though, obviously, if I'm not an Alpha NT, than that isn't much use...I thought it might explain how they might seem to show a lack of sympathy. I know ENTps like to make those kind of jokes and have those kind of arguments - with another INTj, the conversation tends to be more serious. ENTps do seem to ask various permutations of 'why must it be that way?' a lot - I know I certainly do .

[Mediator Kam]

ILE's are sooooo crazy, I never realized it.

I want to make them care.

I got it, that will be my mission in life. I will service the ENTp community() and make them care about the human struggle once more.

I feel that this is my calling. See you guys later, I'm going to find a grouping of ENTp's.

[Mediator Kam]

I can imagine that.

It'll end up with both of us shaking each other, screaming in each others' faces about the alien threat. Hot.

[Strutopolis]

For example, take a few ILE geniuses: Albert Einstein, Sigmund Freud, Ashura Augusta, Adam Smith. (Yes, I realize that not everyone agrees with these typings, but I can defend them, and they illustrate my point too well to ignore.) Each one of these thinkers absorbed a wealth of existing knowledge and later spat out something entirely new. Einstein read everything he could about physics, and even used his time working at a patent office to read about others' inventions, which had largely nothing to do with advanced physics. Sigmund Freud, though perhaps more observationalist than the traditional ILE, essentially pulled psychoanalysis out of his ass. Augusta came up with socionics after becoming dissatisfied with Jung's meager work on personality, bringing in the theory of information metabolism, and synthesizing the two in an unexpected way. Adam Smith, though heavily influenced by David Hume, provided the first systematic description of economics, much of which is still considered groundbreaking today.

Hmm, Im a bit confused by this. As far as Ive understood ILI are the more fact-collecting synthesizers (and sir Adam Smith has been typed ILI/INTP some places). So, in short, how would you describe the difference in ILI and ILE working processes?


I agree with most of the weakness points for ILE:s (I'v tested ENTP and fit quite well into ILE-descriptions). However, the whole argue-thing is not that apparent in my behaviour. Im really annoyed when people use personal or feeling-based argumentation, and I have also hard to let off an argument afterwards (unless its pure intellectual). On the other hand, the fact that I actually take part in debates this way, may suggest the same type of problem as other ILE:s seem to have, but from a slightly different angle.

[Suomea]

I want to make them care.

I got it, that will be my mission in life. I will service the ENTp community() and make them care about the human struggle once more.

That's awesome.

[Jimbean]

I have a tendency to try to do too much at one time, thus spreading myself out too thin.

[Jimbean]

Okay, it is very very simple. Fi POLR means that Fi takes the least precedence in one's thinking. ENTp's do not readily evaluate the morals of what they are doing. I have seen ENTp's do things that are immoral and not even realize it, such as convincing other people to do something upon jumping to some half-assed conclusion.

Out of curiosity, are there any ILE's that do not have this as a weakness?

[Khola aka Bee]

ILE's are sooooo crazy, I never realized it.

I want to make them care.

I got it, that will be my mission in life. I will service the ENTp community() and make them care about the human struggle once more.

I feel that this is my calling. See you guys later, I'm going to find a grouping of ENTp's.

Sure thing, you can service me!!