Wing Combos

[Creepy-male]

No I am not talking about Teriakyi, BBQ, Parmesian, Hot, and Mild

I am trying to peg the spirit for each of these combos

These are overly-simple descriptions.... to get started

5w4 or 4w5 => Creative Types
4w3 or 3w4 => Haughty Types (sorry in advance for negative stereotypes)
3w2 or 2w3 => Host-like and Charming Types
2w1 or 1w2 => Concerned Citizen Types (not positive on this)
1w9 or 9w1 => Idealist Types
8w9 or 9w8 => Earthy Strong Types
7w8 or 8w7 => Daredevil Badass Types
6w7 or 7w6 => ? (not sure)
5w6 or 6w5 => ? (not sure)

I am sure about the 5w4/4w5 and 8w9/9w8 ... but the others are sort of shaky; some more than others

post your take!

[Creepy-male]

9w1 and 1w9 sounds about right. However, some 9w1s are just the "nice Nines" and don't really have any idealistic bent, eg, some 9w1 Si-bases.

[Creepy-male]

9w1 and 1w9 sounds about right. However, some 9w1s are just the "nice Nines" and don't really have any idealistic bent, eg, some 9w1 Si-bases.

clarify what you mean by "idealistic bent"... if you mean like an agenda to speak out and advocate on something... your probably right thats not nessicarily 9w1, by idealist I was think kind of "Head in the clouds" stuff, and less about the physical reality of idealism which is approached closer to 1w2. Idealism is prevalent close to the 1, but the 1w2 idealism is like a person speaking out and advocating, volunteering, participating, the 9w1 is a different brand; more "head in the clouds" a bit calmer/laziers (however you'de like to look at it) and alot more concerned about being nice/benevolent to others than participating/volunterring.

[Creepy-male]

Hmm? Well, I'm dragging a certain SLI in for her commentary. We're both 9w1s, but I think I'm the more obviously dreamy and spacey.

By "Idealistic bent" I just mean having a vision or ideal for things that you hold in your head, like, "I want to be this kind of person" or "People shouldn't hate each other". It doesn't necessarily have to be one you advocate or try to bring about (hence why 9w1s are called the "dreamers" perhaps?)

[Azeroffs]

5w6 and 6w5 are academics/scientists

7w6 and 6w7 are loyalists.. ?

ironically the first pair are probably the most stubborn minded and the second pair the most open of the enneagram.

[Azeroffs]

hence why 9w1s are called the "dreamers" perhaps?

Dreamer vs idealist is probably the difference between 9w1/1w9 respectively. There's only a slight difference really.

I think "host-like" is more 2w1/1w2, but I like concerned citizen. I think charming types is good for 2w3/3w2.

[FDG]

I like the way my type is classified, although perhaps you could add "with megalomaniac tendencies".

[strrrng]

I can see where you're coming from with the haughty thing for 4w3 and 3w4, but I think a better descriptor would be 'aristocratic' or 'self-creating' since those two types are the most bent on the latter and seem to implicitly assume the former for themselves.

'Host' makes decent sense for 3w2 and 2w3 but I would also suggest 'patron' and 'martyr,' as those are more encompassing.

5w6 and 6w5 are kind of like experts, specialists, etc.

4w5 and 5w4 are not the creative types; that is a platitude lol. 'Existential' might be a better word, but even that has too many connotations.

[Creepy-male]

4w5 and 5w4 are not the creative types; that is a platitude lol. 'Existential' might be a better word, but even that has too many connotations.

Nah the difference between 5 and 6 is, while both are intellectual, 6's are more drawn to established ideas and doctorines, while 5's are more prone to individual investigation and developing their own ideas. 6's tend to actually be more "academic" while 5's are usually a bit more iconoclastic, especially if they have the 4 wing. For this reason the difference between the intellectualism of 5's and 6's is that 5's are more of the "creative thinker" who develops orginal ideas from personal investigation while the 6's are more of the experts who develop from established knowledge.

The 4 is considered to be creative by its own nature, its in almost every description I see, but 4's are generally more artistic than intellectual.

4/3 has a tendancy to be creative also, but its more fueled by the industry of the 3. Its more of a prolific artistic kind of creativity. On top of that the 3's are a little bit image concerned, while the 4's self-absorbed and dramatic, which makes the 3/4 combo the "prince/princess - aristocratic" type, concerned with image and self-absorbed with dramatic flair. They are creative but not typically in a deep/profound sense, but more so in a prolific self-expressive way. I think the 3 sometimes gets in the way of this type truely being intensely creative because they are concerned about their image and may hold back a little on self-expression to fit in and be liked, at their best though this type really is just as creative as 5/4, but still its more of an industrious/artistic creativity with a bit of an aristocratic flair, more so than a profound creativity that reveals something deep, personal, yet general about reality.

Existential fits, but I don't like the term, it doesn't do justice to the spirit of the 4/5 combo imo. While their creativity is focused on discovering something deep/profound about life and meaning they are not all existentialists. Anyways the definitions above were just kind of short catch phrases, I am working on a more detailed and accurate description of each; knowing you you'll probably want to check that out over whats here, you tend to be a little bit too precise for me to get away with these kind of descriptions.

[strrrng]

Yeah, this is why I said to refrain from calling 4/5's the "creative type" – it just perpetuates faulty ideas about the e-types. 5w4/4w5's are not necessarily more "profound" or "personal" in creativity, and chalking up the underlying motivations to such a behavioral simplification, is incorrect. Additionally, having a 3 wing doesn't detract from the possible amount of genuine creativity one can have, due to some barrier of image concern; that is absurd. I would suggest you quit aggrandizing your self-typing and reevaluate your understanding of enneagram.

[electric sheep]

4w5 and 5w4 are very deep into themselves. Maybe controversial is a good descriptor because they tend to reject socially accepted things.

9w1s are the most idealistic, but they tend to keep their dreams in their own head and disengage from the world, unlike 1w9s who try to embody their ideals: "Be the change you want to see in the world"

[Park]

[Creepy-male]

I would suggest you quit aggrandizing your self-typing and reevaluate your understanding of enneagram.

Look, I am not even speaking on my behalf... Look forget I am a 5/4... I don't care if people think I am the most un-creative person alive... seriously it doesn't bother me, what I am after here is trying to come up with quick little amorphisms to describe the wing combinations, so that when someone is like "hey that person is really creative", you can be like.... "possible 4/5".... because honestly a deep and accurate typing takes time that people may not have, quick amorphisms cut the time to get a rough estimate, that can be explored in depth later for more accuracy. Thats my motive, honestly... I am not a big deal on this board... who do I have to impress lol? Your assertion seems a bit um ridiculous... you want to see some rotten motive in me, when if you just look at it objectively, it doesn't even make sense. What would I be trying to prove to anyone on here? What would I be trying to prove to myself? I am not insecure about my "creativity" or lack of.

5w4/4w5's are not necessarily more "profound" or "personal" in creativity, and chalking up the underlying motivations to such a behavioral simplification, is incorrect.

Lol you always think I am trying to say one type is better than another... thats not my focus. Its on identifying Strengths/Weaknesses. Face it some types have strengths that other don't.... but so do they have weaknesses that others don't, so it balances out... no type is truely better. Each is just a "play-style" towards the "life game".

I think its ridiculous to believe that there is no "creative" type. Look around, some people are creative, because they care about that aspect of life and value it. Others are not, not because they suck, but because they are apathetic to creative pursuit, as there focus is elsewhere. Not everyone is a prolific genius. So in light of this, it would seem naturally you have a differing idea on how "creative" types are accounted for in the enneagram, and I'd like to hear your idea or else as far as I am concerned I am not interested in prolonging our conversations.

Additionally, having a 3 wing doesn't detract from the possible amount of genuine creativity one can have, due to some barrier of image concern; that is absurd.

You obviously didn't pay attention, I didn't mean it detracts from GENUINE creativity. I meant it detracts from the expression of GENUINE creativity.

3's want to maintain an image and look worthy to other people; whilst 4's and 5's are individualists that care more about their own thoughts/feelings than what will make them look respectable/successful/worthy.

The pressure of the 3's desires conflicts with the 4's desires and isn't resolved until the person meets a particular level of interpersonal development, at which their genuine creativity becomes apparent.

Thats my theory, its not "3/4's aren't as creative as 4/5's", its what I said above, and no I am not sure... its just a theory and I'd be curious as hell to ask a genuine 3/4 if this is coherent with their experience.

[Azeroffs]

personally, I agree with 4/5 as creative. It sounds better than.. 'different' lol.

[Azeroffs]

Personally, I like this:

5w4 or 4w5 => Creative Types
4w3 or 3w4 => Haughty Types
3w2 or 2w3 => Charming Types
2w1 or 1w2 => Caring Types
1w9 or 9w1 => Idealist Types
8w9 or 9w8 => Solid/Held Together Types
7w8 or 8w7 => Thrill-Seeking Types
6w7 or 7w6 => Curious Types? (still not sure)
5w6 or 6w5 => Analytical Types

What I really find interesting:

1: Caring Idealist Type
2: Charming Caring Type
3: Haughty Charming Type
4: Creative Haughty Type
5: Analytical Creative Type
6: Curious Analytical Type
7: Thrill-Seeking Curious Type
8: Solid/Held-Together Thrill-Seeking Type
9: Solid/Held-Together Idealist Type


Seems like we did it backwards, but still interesting.

[Creepy-male]

Personally, I like this:

5w4 or 4w5 => Creative Types
4w3 or 3w4 => Haughty Types
3w2 or 2w3 => Charming Types
2w1 or 1w2 => Caring Types
1w9 or 9w1 => Idealist Types
8w9 or 9w8 => Solid/Held Together Types
7w8 or 8w7 => Thrill-Seeking Types
6w7 or 7w6 => Curious Types? (still not sure)
5w6 or 6w5 => Analytical Types

What I really find interesting:

1: Caring Idealist Type
2: Charming Caring Type
3: Haughty Charming Type
4: Creative Haughty Type
5: Analytical Creative Type
6: Curious Analytical Type
7: Thrill-Seeking Curious Type
8: Solid/Held-Together Thrill-Seeking Type
9: Solid/Held-Together Idealist Type


Seems like we did it backwards, but still interesting.

So your doing two descript to one type that overlaps

I am doing "two types" to one descript that overlaps

intriguing sir

--------------------

I noticed you are 3w4/4w3 combination?

I can't seem to get the "aristocratic haughty snob" out of my head for that type.... whats the positive of 3w4/4w3; I don't really research 3w4/4w3 's in depth (planning on it soon though).

[Azeroffs]

We're basically haughty snobs Though not always obviously.
3/4 is characterized by elitism imo. Wanting to be the best and different = elitism.

Positives? Tend to be really ambitious. It's hard to describe 3w4/4w3 together as they really are quite different.

3w4 tends to be very hardworking ambitious and professional even compared to 3w2. They tend to have icy feeling to them compared to the warmth of 3w2. They strive to be the best by distinguishing themselves from the crowd. They idealize becoming the best at what they do.

4w3 has a flamboyant emotionality to them. They like to flaunt and express their individuality. More personable than the 4w5. They want the world to know they are an individual compared to a 4w5 who isolates themselves from the world because they know they are outsiders.

3/4 is characterized by an inner conflict of becoming the best person they can be and staying true to themselves.

[Creepy-]

Those look good to me. Maybe 7w6 and 6w7 could be inquisitive enthusiasts or something....

[Creepy-male]

...compared to a 4w5 who isolates themselves from the world because they know they are outsiders.

I am currently researching 4/5 right now for detailed descripts;

I think while they are isolated from the world, thats more of a weakness than a true desire. The 4 is withdrawn ideal seeker and 5 is the withdrawn power seeker.

Personally I've never seen withdrawling as a fundamental human desire, but more as a defensive reaction. I think withdrawl is merely the coping strategy of the 4/5... That is withdrawling helps the 4/5 obtain their ideals/power.

[Creepy-male]

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

lol popsicles and chicken wings.... thats either one of those odd combinations that works like fries and ice cream, or it tastes like crap.

[Azeroffs]

I am currently researching 4/5 right now for detailed descripts;

I think while they are isolated from the world, thats more of a weakness than a true desire. The 4 is withdrawn ideal seeker and 5 is the withdrawn power seeker.

Personally I've never seen withdrawling as a fundamental human desire, but more as a defensive reaction. I think withdrawl is merely the coping strategy of the 4/5... That is withdrawling helps the 4/5 obtain their ideals/power.

Yeah, you're right. It's not that they withdraw because they want to but because they see the world as too ordinary to deal with. The world is too simple for the complexity of the 4w5. They detach to live in their fantasy world.

[strrrng]

Look, I am not even speaking on my behalf... Look forget I am a 5/4... I don't care if people think I am the most un-creative person alive... seriously it doesn't bother me, what I am after here is trying to come up with quick little amorphisms to describe the wing combinations, so that when someone is like "hey that person is really creative", you can be like.... "possible 4/5".... because honestly a deep and accurate typing takes time that people may not have, quick amorphisms cut the time to get a rough estimate, that can be explored in depth later for more accuracy. Thats my motive, honestly... I am not a big deal on this board... who do I have to impress lol? Your assertion seems a bit um ridiculous... you want to see some rotten motive in me, when if you just look at it objectively, it doesn't even make sense. What would I be trying to prove to anyone on here? What would I be trying to prove to myself? I am not insecure about my "creativity" or lack of.

First of all, it's aphorism, and it doesn't even apply to the phrases you came up with.

Secondly, I don't care about rotten motivations or who you have to impress; my comment was a jesting criticism based on a consistent trend I have observed in 4w5/5w4s, in terms of assessment of those types' creativity.

And the phrase is flawed, regardless.

Lol you always think I am trying to say one type is better than another... thats not my focus. Its on identifying Strengths/Weaknesses. Face it some types have strengths that other don't.... but so do they have weaknesses that others don't, so it balances out... no type is truely better. Each is just a "play-style" towards the "life game".

True, certain types have specific strengths and weaknesses. That doesn't justify dumbed-down catchphrases that use overly-general traits incorrectly.

I think its ridiculous to believe that there is no "creative" type. Look around, some people are creative, because they care about that aspect of life and value it. Others are not, not because they suck, but because they are apathetic to creative pursuit, as there focus is elsewhere. Not everyone is a prolific genius. So in light of this, it would seem naturally you have a differing idea on how "creative" types are accounted for in the enneagram, and I'd like to hear your idea or else as far as I am concerned I am not interested in prolonging our conversations.

I don't doubt that some people are more creative than others; I doubt that it can be primarily isolated to two enneagram types. I've seen 3s, 6s and 7s who were more creative than 5s and 4s. There are different styles of creative expression, you know.

You obviously didn't pay attention, I didn't mean it detracts from GENUINE creativity. I meant it detracts from the expression of GENUINE creativity.

That's even more absurd. 3w4 is probably one of the most "genuinely creative" types when at their peak, and it's derived from the very pursuit of overcoming the external image and finding the "true" self.

3's want to maintain an image and look worthy to other people; whilst 4's and 5's are individualists that care more about their own thoughts/feelings than what will make them look respectable/successful/worthy.

Agreed, but I'd say this is more applicable in the case of 3w2s.

The pressure of the 3's desires conflicts with the 4's desires and isn't resolved until the person meets a particular level of interpersonal development, at which their genuine creativity becomes apparent.

Thats my theory, its not "3/4's aren't as creative as 4/5's", its what I said above, and no I am not sure... its just a theory and I'd be curious as hell to ask a genuine 3/4 if this is coherent with their experience.

Yeah, there is a clash on the 3/4 axis, and it's fairly interesting. Along with the 9/8 axis, it seems to be the most pronouncedly divided (specifically in terms of the triads).

[strrrng]

Yeah, you're right. It's not that they withdraw because they want to but because they see the world as too ordinary to deal with. The world is too simple for the complexity of the 4w5. They detach to live in their fantasy world.

Complexity is just a defense mechanism they cultivate to justify their solemn detachment from what they perceive as a threatening world.

[Creepy-male]

Blah blah blah

You know, I don't think I like you much.

You don't really engage in discussion so much as mildly verbally attack the person like they had an inferior intellect, expecting them to see things exactly like you expect them before they speak/write.

In fact, I REALLY, don't like you, I am done talking this through with you. Its really just pointless, we go nowhere with these debates, they serve more to satisfy some emotional expression of intellectual superiority on your part than to explore anything really useful imo.

[Azeroffs]

Complexity is just a defense mechanism they cultivate to justify their solemn detachment from what they perceive as a threatening world.

Everything about the enneagram types is a defense mechanism. At the peak of healthiness, enneagam type becomes very hard to spot. As a general rule, people are healthy at least from my experience, and so usually aren't so obviously their Etype as some descriptions would suggest.

@HaveLucidDreamz have you ever considered ILI as your type? Just making a suggestion. In the back of my mind I have always thought of you as ILI, and some things keep making me think that.

[strrrng]

You know, I don't think I like you much.

You don't really engage in discussion so much as mildly verbally attack the person like they had an inferior intellect, expecting them to see things exactly like you expect them before they speak/write.

In fact, I REALLY, don't like you, I am done talking this through with you. Its really just pointless, we go nowhere with these debates, they serve more to satisfy some emotional expression of intellectual superiority on your part than to explore anything really useful imo.

I appreciate the fact that you directly state that you dislike me.

[ArchonAlarion]

I definitely don't follow "established" doctrines or w/e the fuck.

I like "curious analytic", though.

[electric sheep]

5/6 - skeptical? critical?
3/2 - I think I like guiding more than charming. "Let me show you the ropes"
6/7 - friendly? gentle? probably the most likable regardless
8/9 - unflappable

[Wynch]

6/7 - I'm not sure about 6w7, but 7's enthusiast is very appropriate for 7w6.

[Satan]

You know, I don't think I like you much.

You don't really engage in discussion so much as mildly verbally attack the person like they had an inferior intellect, expecting them to see things exactly like you expect them before they speak/write.

In fact, I REALLY, don't like you, I am done talking this through with you. Its really just pointless, we go nowhere with these debates, they serve more to satisfy some emotional expression of intellectual superiority on your part than to explore anything really useful imo.

Then why are you still continuing in this exchange. It takes two to tango.

[Creepy-male]

Then why are you still continuing in this exchange. It takes two to tango.

Nah, I am not interested in prolonging that conversation, I was just stating I was done because I felt that nothing productive would come of it.

Everything about the enneagram types is a defense mechanism. At the peak of healthiness, enneagam type becomes very hard to spot. As a general rule, people are healthy at least from my experience, and so usually aren't so obviously their Etype as some descriptions would suggest.

I don't know about defense mechanisms, I think the base principle of e-types is on having a "core motive".

Defense mechanisms result from the fears of the core motive.

Consider the 4... there defense mechanism is withdrawl into fantasy (their emotional inner world). However this defense is a result of their fear of being un-unique, not special, and generally just another ant in the colony with a unpurposeful life without meaning. Withdrawl is actually the perfect defense for this because withdrawl allows them to get in better contact with themselves and explore this uniqueness.

Also; Its not like a type's "core motive" is completely unique to them, everyone shares all the motives... but the "core motive" of a type is generally a major focus of their identity, while to other types it takes a backseat and is mostly ignored. Tritypes and Wings explore what kind of motives you have in your passenger seat and backseat... while types neither in your tritype or wing, might as well just be in the trunk - hardly ever interfered with.

@HaveLucidDreamz have you ever considered ILI as your type? Just making a suggestion. In the back of my mind I have always thought of you as ILI, and some things keep making me think that.

Well, yes at first I thought INTp. However, orginally my friends pegged me as INTj... specifically in MBTI/Kiersey first they pegged me as INTj or Mastermind. After a while I saw how it fit, but I still tend to think I act a bit INTp from time to time.

The types I can relate to alot are the following:
INTj
INTp
ENTp
ISTp
ISFp
INFp
INFj

The types I can relate to occasionally are:
ENTj
ENFj
ESTp
ISTj

The types I don't really relate to are:
ESTj
ISFj
ESFj
ESFp
ENFp

[Azeroffs]

I don't know about defense mechanisms, I think the base principle of e-types is on having a "core motive".

Yes, but this 'core motive' comes from a deficiency. For the image triad this means a lack of sense of self. Mental triad a lack of knowing/understanding. Gut triad a lack of relief.

The motives are attempts to correct the deficiency.

[Aiss]

I don't know about defense mechanisms, I think the base principle of e-types is on having a "core motive".

Defense mechanisms result from the fears of the core motive.

Consider the 4... there defense mechanism is withdrawal into fantasy (their emotional inner world). However this defense is a result of their fear of being un-unique, not special, and generally just another ant in the colony with a unpurposeful life without meaning. Withdrawal is actually the perfect defense for this because withdrawal allows them to get in better contact with themselves and explore this uniqueness.

Perceiving the world in childhood -> coping mechanism -> motivations -> behavioral patterns.

Fives perceive the world as threatening and invading, and cope by protecting their privacy, which leads to motivations such as the desire for independence, detachment, knowledge.

Fours perceive the world as having abandoned them, taken something they need. They cope by searching for self-fulfillment. Motivations are desire for deep and meaningful emotions, intense feelings, uniqueness.

Motivations aren't literally "core", they're unconscious ways of coping. The mechanism and original perception of danger are buried even deeper in subconsciousness, not easily reached.

[silverchris9]

As a 3w4 or 4w3 or whatever I am, I vote for self-creating over haughty. Self-creating actually reminds me a lot of what I do, I think, and it also makes me feel Shakespearian.

Motivations aren't literally "core", they're unconscious ways of coping. The mechanism and original perception of danger are buried even deeper in subconsciousness, not easily reached.

Exactly. "Core" is a metaphor for "really, really deep in there," but it doesn't necessarily mean "the deepest you can go". It's kind of like describing an atom as the basic unit of matter. Sure, it's pretty darn basic, but you can get more basic if you really want to, it's just hard, murky, and uncertain.

3w4 is probably one of the most "genuinely creative" types when at their peak, and it's derived from the very pursuit of overcoming the external image and finding the "true" self.

Hmmm... that's an interesting observation. Is it that 3w4s just notice the ego projection or persona more than the other etypes and as such can more actively pursue the "true self" or is it that 3w4s make such strong projections (that are so difficult to distinguish from the true self) that their process of self-investigation (self-exhumation even) produces more significant artistic results due to the very difficulty of the endeavor? Regardless, it's an interesting question.

Also I agree with 2s at least being much more guiding than charming. But then, that's all about playing on the subtleties and connotations of words.

[strrrng]

As a 3w4 or 4w3 or whatever I am, I vote for self-creating over haughty. Self-creating actually reminds me a lot of what I do, I think, and it also makes me feel Shakespearian.

Agreed.

Hmmm... that's an interesting observation. Is it that 3w4s just notice the ego projection or persona more than the other etypes and as such can more actively pursue the "true self" or is it that 3w4s make such strong projections (that are so difficult to distinguish from the true self) that their process of self-investigation (self-exhumation even) produces more significant artistic results due to the very difficulty of the endeavor? Regardless, it's an interesting question.

I think that 3w4s are the most objectively self-aware. The primary drive is obviously an external crystallization of the self, yet this end is sought after through more introspective and personal means than, say, a 3w2. I think that through the endless projections and identifications they exhibit, all of the varied aspects of their "selves," however faint and deep, shine through in one form or another; and it is through filtering out the medley of images that they can truly find themselves.

It's not as "pure" as a 4's pursuit, because many external objects are utilized to solidify the image (whereas 4s simply intake the stimuli and filter it in their own way, making it "theirs"). Yet it ultimately encompasses a wider breadth of reality than a 4, even if the inner self isn't as distilled. 3s complete their pursuit by finding the external object that perfectly aligns with themselves; 4s complete theirs by... perfecting their internal identities (assumption being that reality will unfold accordingly... great defense mechanism lol).

[Creepy-male]

Perceiving the world in childhood -> coping mechanism -> motivations -> behavioral patterns.

Fives perceive the world as threatening and invading, and cope by protecting their privacy, which leads to motivations such as the desire for independence, detachment, knowledge.

Fours perceive the world as having abandoned them, taken something they need. They cope by searching for self-fulfillment. Motivations are desire for deep and meaningful emotions, intense feelings, uniqueness.

Motivations aren't literally "core", they're unconscious ways of coping. The mechanism and original perception of danger are buried even deeper in subconsciousness, not easily reached.

Alright so to both Aiss and Azeroth I concede that they are indeed correct that subconcious defense mechanisms can be taken as an underlying principle that establishes many if not all of the outward behavior exhibited by the various enneagram types.

I would also like to claim that my above statement is not entirely accurate concerning the "core motives". Many of my assertions above are not rigorously established and therefore it is expected that much of what I have written can be misleading. For this reason I'd like to propose a more rigorous model conerning this issue of "core motives" vs "subconcious defense mechanisms".

Theory

To begin, I'd like to claim that for every enneagram type there are two seperate levels of conciousness. First, the "surface level". This level is concerned with the outward behavior, characteristics, traits, and actions taken by the individual. A description such as a person being shy, dark, mellow, relaxed, tense, argumentative, opinionated, factual, down-to-earth, individualistic, defensive and so forth would be considered a description which seeks to characterize the state of the a types "surface level". The second level of conciousness is considered to be the "subconcious". This level is concerned with the subconcious of an individual, in a synonomous sense to the manner it is referred to in established psychological theory.

The model of the subconcious of a particular enneagram type is one which consists of a variety of ideas. Among them are;

- Core motivation
- Basic Desire
- Basic Fear
- Characteristic Defense Mechanisms
- Characteristic Compulsions, Obsessions, Habits
- Possible other characteristic elements of the Subconcious

For each of these elements, one is not considered higher in the causality hiearchy. That is the Basic Desires of the individual are not considered a direct result of the Basic Fears of the individual. Nor are the Basic Fears considered a direct result of the Basic Desires of the individual. They are all equivalent in the sense that they are elements of the basic makeup of the subconcious of the individual. Stating one naturally implies the existance of the other and vice versa.

Application

For any given ennegram type with an establish model of the subconcious with coherent elements. Any single element of the subconcious (core motive for example) can be used to logically deduce or derive out the characteristic surface traits of the type. That is every surface trait is a natural result of the subconcious. In practice these surface traits can be deduced from knowing any single element which characterizes the subconcious. Alternatively the subconcious of any type can be characterized through induction by considering any set of surface traits which are coherent and subordinate to the alleged subconcious trait.

It is also pertanent to note that likely all subconcious elements are naturally the result of induction from a set of surface traits, as by definition the subconcious is unobservable.

END


Basically thats my rigorous statement of what I am thinking, and in this theory really its possible to derive out all the surface traits of a type through the core motive. Its also possible to do it through defense mechanism.

Its also inconclusive whether defense mechanisms cause the core motive or vice versa... in fact both are different perspectives on the inner workings of the subconciousness which by definition is unobservable outside of using induction.

At any rate I should say that I personally prefer to use the core motive when thinking about etypes. Its easier to derive the behaviors out from this principle than memorize a massive list of little adjective, traits, and behavioral tendenacies and further I find it takes me less time to think in terms of this rather than defense mechanisms. For me to think in terms of defense mechanisms I have to consider every trait as a result of the individual attempting to protect themselves psychologically, wheras with core motives I only have to think in terms of actions that help to achieve the objective established by the core motive

Hopefully this will help clarify any descrepancies concerning what I have written above.