The Pluses and Minuses

[silverchris9]

Okay, I need someone to clear up a few questions for me about the plus and minus version of socionics, you know, with -Se and +Se, etc. So, I get that it can be useful insofar as it basically denotes which other function the IM in question is blocked with. But after that I really don't get it, so I have questions.

1) Why + and - as the symbols? What is the rule governing which Se (blocked with Ti or blocked with Fi) is + and which one is -? Or are the symbols just arbitrary, and it would be just as easy to label it *Se and ^Se?

2) What is the deal with one's superid functions being different + and - than one's dual's ego functions? That is, when I tried to read up a little on the plus-and-minus-socionics, I was very confused by the fact that IEI superid is, I think, +Se and -Ti, whereas SLE ego is, I think, -Se and +Ti. What does that signify/mean/imply?

3) How do I know how to assign + and -? Like, how would I figure out if it's Beta Ni is + and Gamma Ni is -, or Beta Ni is - and Gamma Ni is +?

[Aiss]

1) Why + and - as the symbols? What is the rule governing which Se (blocked with Ti or blocked with Fi) is + and which one is -? Or are the symbols just arbitrary, and it would be just as easy to label it *Se and ^Se?

Symbols. Plus is expanding, Minus is reducing. Also IIRC, in model B -Se is in fact "-Se/+Si", etc. (these have fancy descriptions somewhere there, methinks).

For rule, see answer to (3).

2) What is the deal with one's superid functions being different + and - than one's dual's ego functions? That is, when I tried to read up a little on the plus-and-minus-socionics, I was very confused by the fact that IEI superid is, I think, +Se and -Ti, whereas SLE ego is, I think, -Se and +Ti. What does that signify/mean/imply?

IEI's superid is -Se +Ti. Blocks have the same polarity, always. There's no +Se -Ti.

3) How do I know how to assign + and -? Like, how would I figure out if it's Beta Ni is + and Gamma Ni is -, or Beta Ni is - and Gamma Ni is +?

SF and NT blocks have +NS and -TF - that is, internal with external results in plus irrational and minus rational. ST and NF have -NS and +TF.

The easier way to remember is that Democratic quadras have (+) irrational and (-) rational elements, Aristocratic quadras (-) irrational and (+) rational.

[Aiss]

And also Plus and minus - Wikisocion.

[silverchris9]

Symbols. Plus is expanding, Minus is reducing. Also IIRC, in model B -Se is in fact "-Se/+Si", etc. (these have fancy descriptions somewhere there, methinks).

For rule, see answer to (3).

Oh, yeah, that's right. What do "expanding" and "reducing" mean? I mean, generally, I'm sure in actuality they're as complicated as every term in socionics.

IEI's superid is -Se +Ti. Blocks have the same polarity, always. There's no +Se -Ti.

Cool. I must have remembered that wrong. But -Se = -Se/+Si?

SF and NT blocks have +NS and -TF - that is, internal with external results in plus irrational and minus rational. ST and NF have -NS and +TF.

The easier way to remember is that Democratic quadras have (+) irrational and (-) rational elements, Aristocratic quadras (-) irrational and (+) rational.

Got it! Thanks.

Now, what is the use of this system besides having a fancy way to say Beta Ti and Alpha Ti? Which, if I apply the rule correctly is +Ti (beta) and -Ti (alpha).

[silverchris9]

There's a typo in that article (it says - = rather than ). How do I go in and fix it?

[Aiss]

What typo?

Now, what is the use of this system besides having a fancy way to say Beta Ti and Alpha Ti? Which, if I apply the rule correctly is +Ti (beta) and -Ti (alpha).

+Ti means Beta-or-Delta Ti, so it's a fancier way of saying "Ti blocked with Se". I, for one, appreciate the simplicity and elegance of it.

Also, from my point of view it seems to make sense that democrats expand perception and aristocrats expand judgment. Another thing about plus/minus is that it's in sync with process/result dichotomy (+ base element is process, - is result), called evolutionary/involutionary in context of forms of thinkings. Process/result also means "in right supervision ring"/"in left supervision ring", and in this way +/- is also related to quadra progression (+ elements progressively and - elements regressively).

[krieger]

+ means left in the sequence N T S F N relative to the function it is paired with
- means right in said sequence relative to the function it is paired with

NT: N+ T-
ST: T+ S-
SF: S+ F-
NF: F+ N-

The main reason they are useful is that they allow you to explain the small cycle Reinin dichotomies in terms of function properties:
Taciturn: +Object, -Field
Narrator: +Field, -Object
Aristocrat: +Judging, -Perceiving
Democrat: +Perceiving, -Judging
Process: +Accepting, -Creating (or producing, creative, or whatever)
Result: +Creating, -Accepting
Positivist: +Empowering, -Limiting (yes, you need Limiting/Empowering for this one too)
Negativist: +Limiting, -Empowering

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I think it's all bullshit, frankly. It has no core ground for me. The +Se/-Se model B function theory. Hitta likes it but I mean, I never really saw the point. It has just like no objective oomph holding everything together.

[Crispy]

Well... Is it accurate?

[silverchris9]

Oh, okay. You guys have definitely demonstrated that it is valid and potentially useful, but I don't really like or care about the Reinin dichotomies right now, so I'm going to continue to ignore the pluses and minuses. But at least I'll understand what other people mean when they use them!

[krieger]

The +/- signs also emphasize the use of types rather than functions, because it weakens the notion that similarity between adjacent quadras can be attributed to shared functions.

[Gilly]

The thing is, if you actually OBSERVE people, you CAN see similarities between neighboring quadra members that are very clearly related to their shared functions; I've had quite a few friends for whom I've teetered between SLE and SEE, especially my best friend; he's SEE, which is clear to me at this point in knowing him and knowing Socionics, but there are so many similarities between he and clear-cut SLEs that I know, right down to the bodily movements, that I can't feel bad for wavering a bit.

[Aiss]

The +/- signs also emphasize the use of types rather than functions, because it weakens the notion that similarity between adjacent quadras can be attributed to shared functions.

I would say it actually emphasizes more subtle differences while retaining basic similarity (i.e. -Ni is still closer to +Ni than to either flavour of Ne, making Beta and Gamma meet there).

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

I would say it actually emphasizes more subtle differences while retaining basic similarity (i.e. -Ni is still closer to +Ni than to either flavour of Ne, making Beta and Gamma meet there).

Under the model B, delta is said to favor +Te and -Ti. So that means the similarity between delta and alpha would be attributed to the judging rather than perceiving axis.

Also, between ESTj and INTj, for example, instead of basing the relation on shared valued (both Si/Ne valuers), they would base it on a shared strength (Te+/Ti- strength).

[stanprollyright]

+/- is redundant but it can be a good way to think about the differences in the way elements are used based on what they are blocked with.

[tcaudilllg]

My belief is that +/- refers to whether when using a function we ask ourselves how it applies to us or the world first. Although the subjective position is always '+', minus functions always refer to the subjective position first. Plus functions always refer to the objective situation first, and then the subjective position as the means to do something about it. This is why '+' is involved in the "process" of taking action, while '-' tries to see the "result" of actions already taken.

Basically,
+ = process ("what should be done, what I'm going to do")
- = result ("what I have done, what happened because of it")

However, it's more complex than that, because subtype comes into the equation as well. "Result" and "process" most often describe how accepting subtypes use the functions; producing subtype use +,- differently.

+/- (producing subtype)
+ = "What I may do, how the world will change"
- = "what is the situation is, how I can cope"

[xerx]

The thing is, if you actually OBSERVE people, you CAN see similarities between neighboring quadra members that are very clearly related to their shared functions; I've had quite a few friends for whom I've teetered between SLE and SEE, especially my best friend; he's SEE, which is clear to me at this point in knowing him and knowing Socionics, but there are so many similarities between he and clear-cut SLEs that I know, right down to the bodily movements, that I can't feel bad for wavering a bit.

I would say it actually emphasizes more subtle differences while retaining basic similarity (i.e. -Ni is still closer to +Ni than to either flavour of Ne, making Beta and Gamma meet there).

These.

[JohnDo]

Why do people people on this forum always complicate the easy things?
+ just means you strive for something.
- just means you avoid something.


+Ti = organization and logic
-Ti = avoiding chaos and logical mistakes

+Te = efficiency and stability
-Te = avoiding financial disasters

+Fi = good relations
-Fi = avoiding bad relations

+Fe = having fun
-Fe = avoiding misery

+Ni = taking risks
-Ni = avoiding danger

+Ne = breakthroughs and revolutions
-Ne = avoiding stagnation

+Si = having comfort
-Si = avoiding discomfort

+Se = striving for power
-Se = avoiding powerlessness




Examples:

* Betas want to have fun, no matter if it causes misery for themselves or others (+Fe).
* Alphas also have fun, of course, but they rather try to avoid misery for themeselves and others (-Fe).

*Alphas strive for revolutions and scientific breakthroughs (+Ne).
*Deltas also like unusual ideas but they rather try to avoid complete stagnation (-Ne).

*Gammas take risks no matter if it causes a global economy crisis (+Ni).
*Betas also take risks sometimes but they tend to avoid dangerous situations (-Ni).

[krieger]

Why do people people on this forum always complicate the easy things?

Because your easy definitions suck and don't work.

[silverchris9]

Those descriptions are horrible.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[krieger]

I don't think saying INTjs avoid Ti makes any sense when the definition of Ti is left unchanged. This principle seems to match Valued/Unvalued better.

+ is probably more along the lines of something you have a confident attitude towards, and - something you have a cautious attitude towards. These are the interpretations smilingeyes used.

So: + and Valued: you confidently pursue this
- and Valued: you cautiously pursue this

[Aiss]

-Fe = avoiding bad relations

You mean -Fi, right?

*Gammas take risks no matter if it causes a global economy crisis (+Ni).
*Betas also take risks sometimes but they tend to avoid dangerous situations (-Ni).

Yes, well, that's one of the reasons I wonder if it's really this simple. Compare your example of +Ni to -Te. One thing I cannot identify is this risk taking... I'm pretty sure I'm either not +Ni or this definition is inaccurate.

I don't think saying INTjs avoid Ti makes any sense when the definition of Ti is left unchanged. This principle seems to match Valued/Unvalued better.

+ is probably more along the lines of something you have a confident attitude towards, and - something you have a cautious attitude towards. These are the interpretations smilingeyes used.

So: + and Valued: you confidently pursue this
- and Valued: you cautiously pursue this

I still think (+) as maximizing positives and (-) as minimizing negatives make sense. What's flawed in JohnDo's examples is that he doesn't take into account that while one takes priority over the other, both are still aimed at - so while expanding (+) opportunities, risks are still limited (-) within this constraint. Benefit isn't in inverse proportion to risks as a rule.

[The Exception]

Why do people people on this forum always complicate the easy things?
+ just means you strive for something.
- just means you avoid something.


+Ti = organization and logic
-Ti = avoiding chaos and logical mistakes

+Te = efficiency and stability
-Te = avoiding financial disasters

+Fi = good relations
-Fe = avoiding bad relations

+Fe = having fun
-Fe = avoiding misery

+Ni = taking risks
-Ni = avoiding danger

+Ne = breakthroughs and revolutions
-Ne = avoiding stagnation

+Si = having comfort
-Si = avoiding discomfort

+Se = striving for power
-Se = avoiding powerlessness

Hmmm. I seem to favor the negative side on all of these. Does this mean I join the theta quadra now?

[silverchris9]

Hmmm. I seem to favor the negative side on all of these. Does this mean I join the theta quadra now?

. Yes.

[tcaudilllg]

You should also understand that for some people (namely Hitta) the polarities are reversed. Thus you get an LII that, in Che's words, "strives" for organization, and an LSI that avoids making mistakes.

But add the shadow circuit to the mix, and things get even more complicated. Any LII can either strive to control or to avoid any element, but those tendencies are divided between the ego and the id.

[xerx]

You should also understand that for some people (namely Hitta) the polarities are reversed. Thus you get an LII that, in Che's words, "strives" for organization, and an LSI that avoids making mistakes.

But add the shadow circuit to the mix, and things get even more complicated. Any LII can either strive to control or to avoid any element, but those tendencies are divided between the ego and the id.

tcaud don't take this the wrong way man, but what are you trying to achieve with such a complicated model?

[Crispy]

World Domination of course.

[JohnDo]

Because your easy definitions suck and don't work.

Once again, I don't get the impression that you are Ti-ego. Always want to complicate the easy stuff...

Those descriptions are horrible.

Because Betas and Gammas are described as evil again? Just don't take it personally...

In any of the cases, taking higher risks is Beta all the day, whose Ni is "-", while Gammas, who are daring too, they value stability and don't push things to the extreme (usually taking measures with care, as much ash possible). Gamma has "+Ni" so it doesn't fit in.

No, I don't think so. ENFjs always warn others about trouble and avoid dangerous situations (-Ni). ENTjs like to take more risks (+Ni). For INFp and INTp it is the same: INFps are rather careful people, not inclined to take greater risks than INTps...

I don't think saying INTjs avoid Ti makes any sense when the definition of Ti is left unchanged.

They don't avoid Ti, they just avoid problems concerning this information element. Benefits of Ti are organization and logic, that's what ISTjs strive for. INTjs rather avoid chaos and logical mistakes by using Ti - but they are not really interested in organizing everything and they don't necessarily think that everything always has to be logical...

You mean -Fi, right?

Yes, just a typo...

Yes, well, that's one of the reasons I wonder if it's really this simple. Compare your example of +Ni to -Te. One thing I cannot identify is this risk taking... I'm pretty sure I'm either not +Ni or this definition is inaccurate.

It is only a tendency, of course. Do you think INFps take more risks than you do? That's what has to be compared...

What's flawed in JohnDo's examples is that he doesn't take into account that while one takes priority over the other, both are still aimed at - so while expanding (+) opportunities, risks are still limited (-) within this constraint. Benefit isn't in inverse proportion to risks as a rule.

My examples are simplified, of course. I just wanted to stress the main points. Funny thing is, once again I am criticised for my -Ti which exactly means "avoiding chaos". Those who value +Ti would rather like to see detailed descriptions instead of "avoiding chaos" descriptions (-Ti).

[krieger]

No, I don't think so. ENFjs always warn others about trouble and avoid dangerous situations (-Ni). ENTjs like to take more risks (+Ni). For INFp and INTp it is the same: INFps are rather careful people, not inclined to take greater risks than INTps...

INTps have Ni+ and are characteristically known for warning people about risks and dangers:

INTps are very sceptical to others who are undertaking new beginnings. They are able to pour cold water on others burning enthusiasm. They try to keep others from being passionate as they consider strong emotions to be harmful. INTps also look after their health and can be very captious in these matters. For example, they may wash their hands more often than others do. They pay a lot attention to hygiene and sanitation.

[krieger]

My post got messed up and I can't edit it. The following passage should have been bolded in the topmost paragraph:

If he did not have to warn other people about possible dangers (opportunities interest him less), he most possibly would feel himself redundant.

[JohnDo]

INTps have Ni+ and are characteristically known for warning people about risks and dangers:

Okay, good point. But the more important question is: Who takes greater risks? INFp or INTp?

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[Aiss]

My examples are simplified, of course. I just wanted to stress the main points. Funny thing is, once again I am criticised for my -Ti which exactly means "avoiding chaos". Those who value +Ti would rather like to see detailed descriptions instead of "avoiding chaos" descriptions (-Ti).

No, you aren't criticized for avoiding chaos. You're criticized for adding to chaos by misleading descriptions.

The main problem with many of these is that you focus on wrong negative/positive aspects. In several cases, you focus on negatives which result from lack of the element, whereas it should be negatives that result from its abundance. For example:

+Ti = organization and logic
-Ti = avoiding chaos and logical mistakes

+Ti = using organization and logic when they might be helpful - perceived as "bringing order"
-Ti = avoiding systems and structures that aren't necessary (Ockham's razor, Zen of Python and such) - perceived as "avoiding constraints"

Also, what labcoat said. I'd say Gilly got it right about Ni earlier.

[tcaudilllg]

I use Ti- to determine how I should think. I use Ti+ to criticize others' use of Ti-. (particularly to impress upon them that what they think is possible isn't, because the rules are what they are).

In several cases, you focus on negatives which result from lack of the element, whereas it should be negatives that result from its abundance. For example:

Correction: both are accurate depending on how the person uses it. Conservative leaners tend to criticize the abundance, liberal leaners the lack.

[Gilly]

Hmmm. I seem to favor the negative side on all of these. Does this mean I join the theta quadra now?

No, but it does mean you are an E9.

[The Exception]

No, but it does mean you are an E9.

I'm quite sure (about 95%) that I'm an E5. But E9 is the type I second most identify with.

[xerx]

Okay, I need someone to clear up a few questions for me about the plus and minus version of socionics, you know, with -Se and +Se, etc. So, I get that it can be useful insofar as it basically denotes which other function the IM in question is blocked with. But after that I really don't get it, so I have questions.

1) Why + and - as the symbols? What is the rule governing which Se (blocked with Ti or blocked with Fi) is + and which one is -? Or are the symbols just arbitrary, and it would be just as easy to label it *Se and ^Se?

+ =>> evolution. rapid social progress.
- <<= involution. careful social progress with periodic regression.

2) What is the deal with one's superid functions being different + and - than one's dual's ego functions? That is, when I tried to read up a little on the plus-and-minus-socionics, I was very confused by the fact that IEI superid is, I think, +Se and -Ti, whereas SLE ego is, I think, -Se and +Ti. What does that signify/mean/imply?

I think it's that you're receptive to your dual's output but generate the opposite sign.

So IEI would be receptive to -Se in their superid, but generate +Se if they ever try to use that function. There's some theoretical + - + - cycle in Model A that I kind find an explanation for.

It seems to suggest that semi-dual relations aren't all they're cut out to be, since you can sort of generate your semi-dual's base function and don't need it "as much" as your dual's.

3) How do I know how to assign + and -? Like, how would I figure out if it's Beta Ni is + and Gamma Ni is -, or Beta Ni is - and Gamma Ni is +?

+ = process.
- = result.
These are described here.

there is also another convention that Stratievskaya likes to use. Don't quote me on that though.
+ = positivist.
- = negativist.

And rarely you'll see +/- refer to mental/vital in Model A, respectively.

[Hitta]

Dur... I just saw this so I'm going to respond and have a lot of people disagree with me so here it goes.

Introverted
-Ti= Analysis, understanding why, getting to the core, understanding how everything fits together
+Ti= Common sense intelligence, accepting law of the land, systematization of a standard

+Fi= Universal compassion, non-discriminatory, equality, fear of focused intimacy, Mother Teresa complex
-Fi= Focused compassion, romantic idealism, flaw finding, need for perfect mate

+Ni= Views self as just a cog in society, ability to immerse identity with society, ability to lose identity into the group, spiritual neutrality
-Ni= Views self as "different", need for originality, spiritual thinking, imagination, wants to push the envelope

+Si= Need to explore the senses, ability to spiritualize the senses, exploration/sexual exploration
-Si= Neutrality to senses, sensual adaptability, apathy to changes in bodily state

Extraverted

+Te=Inability to accept results, obsessive compulsive behavior(the area of ocb depends on the perceiving function), economical perfection, constant adjustment (see-saw effect).
-Te= Focused, goal oriented, ability to set limits, knows what one wants.

+Fe= Isolated intimacy to the right person , focused relationships, exclusive.
-Fe= Fear of isolated intimacy, inclusive, neutral behavior, equality, non-judgmental, hard time showing different people different emotions/behaviors

+Ne= Views society as bland, feels separated, need to add something new to the world.
-Ne= Views society as being special, wants to be apart of the network, feels everything is perfect just the way it is

+Se= Willpower, routine, neutral to conditions,
-Se= Aggression, force, change, need to better things