Betas in Fiction!

[betterthan]

Alpha have an awesome Alpha fiction thread going, I searched for a Beta one, got kind of distracted so just came here and made one ^^.

SLE.

True Blood, Lafayette Reynolds (likely SEE though)

Skins (UK), Cooke.

Faith Lehane, Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

Butch Coolidge, Pulp Fiction.

Spinelli from the cartoon Recess

Spike, from Buffy. (Though I don't see an SLE getting as pathetic as Spike did with the Buffy obsession and her character is EII ><! Also it's amusing that when they flashback to Spike's human life, he's an EII. I'm far too into this show, but it's total Beta awesomeness ^^.)

IEI

Chuck, Pushing Daisies

Willow Rosenburg, Buffy The Vampire Slayer

Helen Schlegel, Howards End

Sophia, Vanilla Sky (& probably the character Sophia in the Spanish original, Open Your Eyes).

The 'pies for breakfast girl' from Pulp Fiction. (Butch's girl)

Angela - Une Femme Est Une Femme (A Woman Is A Woman) (Lol at the overexaggeration of IEI manipulation :wink:!)

EIE

Cathy, Wuthering Heights

Justin Suarez, Ugly Betty

Female protagonist in The Notebook. (forgot her name =/)


LSI

Heathcliff, Wuthering Heights

Rochester, Jane Eyre (can't remember the character or book that well though).

^ Lol, sorry at how bare that is. I'm not good with LSI typings.


Sorry, I feel I should have put up more vintage shows for the older people here but I can't think of any now. I will add more later.

[Marie84]

Edward Rochester is LSE. I think Heathcliff and Cathy are Gamma, but I'm not too sure about those two, though.

Anyways, I was thinking about this earlier and compiled a list of possible Beta characters. I only used somewhat positive ones instead of the stereotypical Beta villain :wink:


SLE

Scarlett O'Hara- Gone with the Wind
Satine - Moulin Rouge!
Velma Kelly - Chicago

IEI

Viola - Shakespeare in Love
Ashley Wilkes - Gone with the Wind
Nienna - The Silmarillion
Juliet - Romeo and Juliet
Luna Lovegood - Harry Potter
Rosemary Woodhouse - Rosemary's Baby

LSI

Mammy - Gone with the Wind
Walt Kowalski - Grand Torino
St. John Rivers - Jane Eyre
Elena Montero - Zorro

EIE

Melanie Hamilton - Gone with the Wind
Romeo - Romeo and Juliet
Horace Slughorn - Harry Potter
Christian (or IEI) - Moulin Rouge!
Rachel Dawes - Batman Begins & The Dark Knight

[1981slater]

LSI

Agent Smith (Matrix)

[ArchonAlarion]

Jaime Lannister - Se ESTp

Cersei Lannister - Beta ST

[silverchris9]

Regina George from Mean Girls is SLE. The part when she throws all the Burn Book flyers around the school is hot. Sorry, I just watched the movie last night.

Mercutio from R&J is either EIE or SLE, but is definitely some variety of beta extrovert. In fact, that whole play is very beta. That's because we make for great drama.

Cleopatra from Antony and Cleopatra is either IEI or EIE.

Achilles in the Iliad really seems SLE, but I could be very wrong on that.

The Joker in The Dark Knight is probably beta. My guess is EIE. (notice how he never really fights anybody; no real Se, but manufactures stuff that seems like Se.) Wouldn't it be interesting, though, if he was just a really messed up IEI? Also, randomly, my SLE friend thinks he's the Joker.

Can't think of any more right now.

[Gilly]

Gilderoy Lockhart is EIE.

[betterthan]

Haha thanks for the input guys . Awh, thanks Marie , liking the list :wink:. I agree Gilly.

I don't see Regina as SLE for sure.... Yeah, The Joker , definitely Beta something - it would be cool if he were an IEI...I need to rewatch that film :wink:, so good, owns the first Batman film, that sucked. What IEI baddies are there about?

[Gilly]

Every one of Herman Hesse's protagonists is Beta NF.

Demian - Emil Sinclair: IEI-Ni
Steppenwolf - Harry Haller - IEI-Ni
Siddhartha - Siddhartha: EIE-Fe
Narcissus and Goldmund - Goldmund: EIE-Ni (Narcissus is LSI-Ti)
Magister Ludi - Joseph Knecht - EIE-Ni

[Gilly]

Joker is an IEI ftw.

[electric sheep]

Cloud - LSI
Barret - SLE
Tifa - IEI
Aeris - EIE

[Gilly]

Barret is LSE or ESE. Tifa is SEI. Aeris is probably EIE.

[electric sheep]

hm I thought Cid was the LSE. I guess ESE could make sense for Barret.

[Satan]

Mercutio from R&J is either EIE or SLE, but is definitely some variety of beta extrovert. In fact, that whole play is very beta. That's because we make for great drama.

What makes you say that.

[Marie84]

Gilderoy Lockhart is EIE.

I was actually debating between the two, you're probably right.

[silverchris9]

For the play:

Highly demonstrative shows of affection/passion: Fe
"Swear not by the moon, the inconstant moon": Not Fi
Physical aggression/concern with pecking order: Sterotypical Se, but Se nonetheless
Willing to die/fight/experience great discomfort for love: Not Si
"What's in a name" (focus on the core, not the surrounding stuff): Ni
I don't know about Ne/Ti/Te, but I'm sure there's some examples.

Also, for the play in general, adolescent rebellion against what society puts in place unnecessarily and without any real basis in reality ("what's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet...") seems very beta to me. There is also an unnerving preoccupation with fate (ethos, character-is-destiny, determinism), which I suppose is something that lurks in the back of the mind of many philosophical Ni-egos as a sort of unhappy specter (or perhaps something that they've made piece with).

For Mercutio:
The only count against me that I can think of is that the Queen Mab speech can be seen as somewhat Ne, because of the series of random associations it strings through, but it could also be seen as Ni-seeking, because it throws out haphazard examples, questing for an actual theme and barely missing it, as if he subconsciously knows that the theme is there, but he can't get to it, so he just piles on more and more stuff.

Mercutio is a very physical character; it's implied in the script. He is very sensitive to power dynamics and shows of aggression, and the typical male concern with pecking order shows through his speech both to his friends and to his enemies. His humor is very SLE with its outrageous sexual innuendo (emphasis on the outrageous part). Furthermore, can't you imagine how much smoother the whole play would run if Mercutio just had a good IEI to tell him what to do? Besides, he just has that furious (not angry) energy that I imagine is typical of SLEs. There is an aspect of naked drive about Mercutio. Also, his constant mocking and teasing of Romeo's "love" for Rosalind screams Fi polr to me. He is wholly contemptuous of official conventions and schemas for recognizing and celebrating love, and we often try our best to disdain what we know we suck at.

But I could just be saying Mercutio is SLE because I want him to be. He might be EIE, I suppose. Definitely beta, though. Also, there could've been some kind of joke there, and you might not have been looking for a lengthy analysis. If so, sorry.

[Gilly]

hm I thought Cid was the LSE. I guess ESE could make sense for Barret.

Cid is SEE or SLE IMO. He could even be some Se-LSI, actually; the idea of his whole life being built around lost past perfection is much more Beta than Gamma. Also I think Shera is cast as his Beneficiary, and ILI would easily work for her; in any case, she seems like a Gamma NT.

[Gilly]

Mercutio as SLE works, IMO.

[Logos]

Mercutio as SLE works, IMO.

How about LSI?

[Ezra]

Mainly Beta STs these lot (they're easier for me to type):

American Beauty: Ricky Fitts Beta introvert, his dad LSI
American Psycho: Patrick Bateman LSI
Apocalypse Now: Col Kilgore SLE, Cpt Willard LSI but Martin Sheen is IEI so there is a strange mix of Beta introversion, Col Kurtz Beta introvert, Chief and possibly Chef and Lance Betas too
The Big Lebowski: Walter SLE
Casino: De Niro's character LSI
The Departed: Frank SLE, Billy and Colin possible SLEs, Dignam SLE, Alec Baldwin's character SLE
Fight Club: Tyler Durden SLE
Full Metal Jacket: Animal Mother SLE
The Godfather: Don Corleone SLE, Michael Corleone LSI
Goodfellas: a shit lot of Beta STs
Heat: De Niro's character Beta ST
Raging Bull: Jake LaMotta SLE, his wife IEI
Scarface: Tony Montana SLE, Sosa LSI, Tony's sister Beta NF, Tony's wife possibly IEI
Starship Troopers: Johnny Rico LSI, Carmen Beta NF maybe, Diz SLE, Ace possibly EIE
Watchmen: Comedian SLE, Silk Spectre possibly IEI
All Clint Eastwood films: he always plays an LSI, often alongside other Beta STs e.g. in the Westerns, Lee Van Cleef is LSI, and the bad guy (Indio in one film is his name I think) SLE

I realise they're all films but I haven't read many books with (blatant) Betas in them. Beta themes, however, are contained in Camus' The Outsider, Heinlein's Starship Troopers, and Machiavelli's The Prince, three of my four favourite books. My other favourite, Clavell's Shogun I think is probably more Gamma-focused.

[Gilly]

The Godfather: Don Corleone SLE, Michael Corleone LSI

Vito (the original Don): LSI
Michael: Beta irrational, IEI seems most likely.

[Gilly]

Scarface: Tony Montana SLE, Sosa LSI, Tony's sister Beta NF, Tony's wife possibly IEI

Tony - LSI

[betterthan]

Yes, IEI is perfect for the joker, now I have reread that type description.

American Beauty; Ricky is THE sexiest fictional character ever.

That total confidence, is so damn attractive, no arrogance, no insecurity, no hesitation, he is what he is and he is just so cool with it. He doesn't even feel the need to do the whole, this is what I am, fuck you if you don't like it, shit. I know he's fictional. But that shit is hot. Definite LSI. Yum.

There is an LSI creepily similar to him in my sociology class. Fuck me .

[silverchris9]

Yay, I'm glad the joker is an IEI! See, he just needed some Se help earlier on in life, and he would've turned out fine.

Anyway, have we talked about Stanley Kowalski = moderately unhealthy SLE and Blanche as a very unhealthy Beta NF? Has interesting implications for Tennessee Williams who seems about as IEI as they come, but I could also be off there.

Antony in Antony and Cleopatra is probably SEE, but maybe SLE because he responds generally well to Cleopatra's copious Fe. Also, the more I think about it, the more sure I am that she's EIE. She uses Ni symbolism/pattern/theme/whatever (especially visible in her method/situation of suicide) to support her emotional floridness, not the other way around.

Othello is clearly an aggressor romance style, and definitely a conqueror in those romance style descriptions leftylib posted, to the degree that he bases his own self-worth moreso on having won the love of Desdemona even than his conquests in battle. It would be too stereotypical to type him as SLE though, so I vote for LSI, just for variety's sake. Also, I could totally see Iago as an evil IEI (crazy good insight into people). Geez, I'm listing all of these terrible, destructive beta relationships. I feel like a bad beta now. W/e. Romeo and Juliet had a good relationship. External circumstances caused them to have a crappy end.

Oh, and Drucilla from The Unvanquished is another scary beta. I'm pretty sure she's beta ST, dunno which one.

[betterthan]

I don't think Heathcliff and Cathy are duals. Cathy is an obvious EIE (the temper tantrums!), but she's never really in love with the real Heathcliff - she seems to ignore all his actions and loves "her Heathcliff" who only exists in her mind. Heathcliff is probably Se valuing (the persevering, single-minded, stubborn mentality), and if you take the monetary revenge as indicative of his values, Te valuing. So I'd say SLE or Gamma NT.

I'd say SLE, Ti subtype. I wasn't sure which out of the beta STs, but unhealthy SLEs are very withdrawn most of the time, so it works. It's just the way Cathy talks about Heathcliff, sounds like dual relations, or at least I could really relate it to my experience with a SLE, you feel like the person is you. ?

[Satan]

I'd say SLE, Ti subtype. I wasn't sure which out of the beta STs, but unhealthy SLEs are very withdrawn most of the time, so it works. It's just the way Cathy talks about Heathcliff, sounds like dual relations, or at least I could really relate it to my experience with a SLE, you feel like the person is you. ?

so, to you, how does a SLE appear when they are withdrawn.

[betterthan]

I can also relate to her descriptions, but my objects of affection aren't necessarily SLEs, so I think it has more to do with a beta NF perception of love - some kind of eternal melding - than duality. If you read the book carefully, Cathy actually rejects the real Heathcliff in preference to her idea of Heathcliff - which doesn't sound at all like dual relations to me. Also, there's no evidence of the usual markers of duality - compensating for each other's weaknesses, living in harmony, not being able to be angry at each other for long, etc. In fact, they don't seem to be able to coexist at all. I think their strong love arises from their shared childhood, not duality, which is not to say their love is any less passionate.

Thanks, that's pretty insightful stuff :wink::wink:. Haha, well this is embarrassing! I haven't read it, I just watched the film lol :redface:.

[betterthan]

so, to you, how does a SLE appear when they are withdrawn.

Well I am thinking of an unhealthy SLE withdrawal, not a regular SLE withdrawal so as not to bring the mood of the group down, and he was very Heathcliff like. But then again, I only watched the film so I don't have the best view.... Let's trust in octopuslove, she knows what shes talking about imo .

[betterthan]

Aww, thanks . But your descriptions make me want to watch the film now, I always remember the book fondly but I'm often disappointed on rereading it but the film sounds much more satisfying.

It was sort of an ITV3 creation, a channel we have in the UK so I am not sure if you can even get it in the USA. I loved it so much, I watched it once, then watched it again right after.

[DividedsGhost]

...
The Joker in The Dark Knight is probably beta. My guess is EIE. (notice how he never really fights anybody; no real Se, but manufactures stuff that seems like Se.) Wouldn't it be interesting, though, if he was just a really messed up IEI? Also, randomly, my SLE friend thinks he's the Joker.
...

I know this is really old, but sometimes when I feel like everyone around me is full of shit and it's stressing me out too much, I go into Joker mode, as a way to relieve the stress and have some Fe fun, LOL. But that might be any normal human being. I'm not sure. I usually keep my Fe hidden in public. Maybe I should be another type, but IEI fits the best intuitively.

[Aiss]

Jaime Lannister - Se ESTp

Cersei Lannister - Beta ST

I couldn't really pin down Cersei, but I think EIE would work even better for her than Se-ego, with all the drama. Any arguments for ST?

Also, Stannis - probably the most stereotypical, if only negatively so, LSI ever written.

[Gilly]

The Joker from The Dark Knight is IEI-Ni 4w5 sx/so 4w5/7w8/8w7. Jack Nicholson's Joker is some 7w8 sx/so.

[silverchris9]

Stepan Arkadyavitch from Anna Karenina is EIE. Vronsky is SLE. Anna is probably IEI, possibly EIE. Definitely beta NF, though. Emma Bovary is also EIE (maybe possibly IEI, but EIE fits better). Her husband is SXI, Rodolphe is SEE, and the second lover is ILE. Nancy from Oliver Twist is a Beta.