INTj and ESFp conflicting relations (LII-SEE)

[Joy]

I posted this in another topic.

INTjs and ESFps who are trying to get along are sort of funny to watch... The ESFp says something as if it's fact and waits for the INTj to correct it. They then use whatever the INTj has just said in a new "theory" on the subject (or at least a somewhat related subject ), and the INTj disagrees again, and the ESFp makes another assertion for the INTj to disagree with.

The INTj is thinking, "There's no way I can break this down so that it's simple enough for the ESFp to understand... she keeps connecting what I say with things it shouldn't be connected to, and I can't even use her own understanding of things to explain it in a way that will make sense to her because she's constantly changing her perception of things."

The ESFp is thinking, "lol wth? He talks like he knows everything, but does he ever leave the house? And what he's saying doesn't even make sense anyways because when I try to find examples or ways of utilizing the information, he just says I'm wrong without giving me information that I can actually use. Doesn't he understand that being smart doesn't matter if you never actually DO anything?"

Most of my friends have been ESFp, and I was married to an INTj, so I've had a lot of opportunity to watch them interact. The INTj thinks of the ESFps as psycho and not that bright (and pointless), and the ESFps think of the INTj as boring and easily annoyed (and pointless).

[mikemex]

Yes. INTj think ESFp are idiots and ESFp thinks INTj just needs to get laid...

The problem is that ESFp understands Ti, but don't receive Te from the INTj. Te is needed because it works like a bridge from the general (Ti) to the specific (Fi). Without a context you can't make Fi understand Ti points.

[intjguy]

I'm two dates in with this girl whom I believe is an ESFp.

:wink: Yes, according to socionics we're conflicts. Okay, questions:

1. Which INTj prominent actions/sayings might I do to turn her off?
2. What should I expect from her to turn me off?
and
3. How prone is inevitable failure in conflicting relationships?

I'm a pretty laid back guy so, I'm much more stressed about what I can say that will be detrimental.

That reminds me. What does she like so much about the INTp compared to me?

Since it seems likely that our relationship can drop quicker than a hat off a midget's head, I will be sure to post as soon as that happens so as to not waste anyone's time.

edit: Hopefully by then I'll at LEAST be able to contribute to question #2.


Sincerely,
Socionic's loyal student
Intjguy

[Khamelion]

Close-minded and inconsistant, illogical stubborness is one of my turn-offs.

Forcing yourself before ques is probably a bad idea, but you don't see the type to force anything.

And I don't know, this is kind of preferential, but I like sarcastic comments and grins. In a date context...you know what I mean? Humor-wise.

Might be good to make sure all attention goes to her, I mean mental attention, interest, you know. I like to know that someone WANTS to listen to me, rather than they are just listening by accident because they are sitting next to me....

Of course, the attention can't be too obvious or obnoxious.


If she seems like she is concentrating on something, or doing something, and you want to say something to her, make sure she is really listening. She might not be fully aware of what you are saying...okay i've just heard that this is common for ESFp, and it fits me 100%. But everyone is different...

[Khamelion]

That reminds me. What does she like so much about the INTp compared to me?

!!!!!!!!!!!



USE SOME

[implied]

1. constantly correcting their logic and such would probably a start for why they wouldn't get along. at least not in an INTj way. i believe nicky wrote something about how her father (a ego type) was much harsher in his criticism than her mother ( ego.) i could see an INTj being harsh in this way. evaluating everything under the sun with the prism of logic. not much room for interpretation when they get into logic-mode or whatever. you not being IP could contribute to why this sucks.
2. not always a good mood, flexible and imperceptible changes in moods, irrationality. the esfp would probably not like the weird and sometimes inhumane seeming ideas you might come up with (violation of -.) i hear that ISFps and ESFjs are much more okay with this, somehow?
3. it's inevitable. looks like you're going to have to suck this one up.

[Ms. Kensington]

1. Which INTj prominent actions/sayings might I do to turn her off?
asking what the point of what she's saying. Not doing everything she wants. Not answering calls or generally being there at any moment (or not reassuring her that you will be there at any moment). What she perceives as you feeling that you are "perfect" (ti).

2. What should I expect from her to turn me off?
"fake" ne, using Fi to guilt trip you/manipulate you (what it feels like to the INTj). Needing your constant attention; the flipside would be, not giving you enough attention to your needs of what you think is polite, not enough attention to what you think is polite to others as well. Seeming to be swayed too easily. Repeating some things over and over. Being what seems to be totally contradictory in speech and feeling....

3. How prone is inevitable failure in conflicting relationships?
My parents are conflictors, have been married over 30 years. They fight a lot. Read: they will have more problems understanding each other than duals, but it can be done. there are more facets to a person than 8 different behavioral preferences.

4. Why does she like INTps
they like them because they 1) do whatever she wants 2) makes himself useful while doing whatever she wants 3) they Te better than you.

[implied]

1. Which INTj prominent actions/sayings might I do to turn her off?
asking what the point of what she's saying. Not doing everything she wants. Not answering calls or generally being there at any moment (or not reassuring her that you will be there at any moment). What she perceives as you feeling that you are "perfect" (ti).

2. What should I expect from her to turn me off?
"fake" ne, using Fi to guilt trip you/manipulate you (what it feels like to the INTj). Needing your constant attention; the flipside would be, not giving you enough attention to your needs of what you think is polite. Not thinking about others. Repeating some things over and over. Being what seems to be totally contradictory in speech and feeling....

3. How prone is inevitable failure in conflicting relationships?
My parents are conflictors, have been married over 30 years. They fight a lot. Read: they will have more problems understanding each other than duals, but it can be done. there are more facets to a person than 16 different behavioral preferences.

4. Why does she like INTps
they like them because they 1) do whatever she wants 2) makes himself useful while doing whatever she wants 3) they Te better than you.

conversely, ESFjs sort of love the non-compliant behavior. they apparently get bored of people who are compliant.

[discojoe]

Going out with an INTj male is probably like having a T-Rex take a shit on your house.

[UDP]

Is she hot or something?

That will help you put up with some things. Otherwise... good luck. Don't have any sort of judgments, and hopefully you enjoy taking a backseat to everything and just giving advice.

[UDP]

That reminds me. What does she like so much about the INTp compared to me?

!!!!!!!!!!!



USE SOME

INTps don't really make ethical judgements, unlike INTjs (or, well, so I thought). INTjs also have an Se polr, and do not tolerate orders or coercion - independence is very important to INTjs. Now, ESFps are not domineering in a negative way, but they definitely like to be in control and be a serious influence on their partners lives. They also do not value Fe like you do.

The list goes on.................



At any rate, it is good for you to deal with an ESFp now and then, especially if they are your opposite. It can be good for you.

[intjguy]

Going out with an INTj male is probably like having a T-Rex take a shit on your house.

Rofl. Is that Te?

It seems that I need more examples of Te.

Her and I were watching this Mexican TV Late show.. and she tried to explain who the host was. I simply asserted.. "So he's like a Mexican Jay Leno?"

She smiled big and said "Yeah! Wow that's a good way of putting it." It wasn't even a difficult assertion.

Is that Te?


UDP: Her face isn't great, but she's a Goddess(minus long legs) when in a bathing suit. Which is when I first met her.

[implied]

That reminds me. What does she like so much about the INTp compared to me?

!!!!!!!!!!!



USE SOME

INTps don't really make ethical judgements, unlike INTjs (or, well, so I thought). INTjs also have an Se polr, and do not tolerate orders or coercion - independence is very important to INTjs. Now, ESFps are not domineering in a negative way, but they definitely like to be in control and be a serious influence on their partners lives. They also do not value Fe like you do.

The list goes on.................



At any rate, it is good for you to deal with an ESFp now and then, especially if they are your opposite. It can be good for you.

i can definitely be pushed into making ethical judgments.

+ secretiveness/shifty seeming at times would be another trait. perhaps this is more of an ENTp thing.

[intjguy]

What she perceives as you feeling that you are "perfect" (ti).

conversely, ESFjs sort of love the non-compliant behavior. they apparently get bored of people who are compliant.

Wait a sec, so she actually digs the pessimistically perceiving complaint aspect of the INTp?

Hm. Weird.

[implied]

What she perceives as you feeling that you are "perfect" (ti).

conversely, ESFjs sort of love the non-compliant behavior. they apparently get bored of people who are compliant.

Wait a sec, so she actually digs the pessimistically perceiving aspect of the INTp?

Hm. Weird.

both ESFx's dig that, as far as i can tell. i mean that i think ESFps expect a more obedient partner, while INTjs seem, like UDP put it, completely and absolutely averse to orders and such. much like ENTps don't want a domineering partner who wants them to submit to their will, i don't believe ESFps want this either. the two "hard to budge/open up" types are ISFj/INTj.

[Ms. Kensington]

the mexican thing i see as the "fake Ne" i mentioned.

[UDP]

UDP: Her face isn't great, but she's a Goddess(minus long legs) when in a bathing suit. Which is when I first met her.

You might get hypnotized by her face, and expressions, so be careful. This will be a good lesson in, well, life. Be careful.

[Khamelion]

UDP: Her face isn't great, but she's a Goddess(minus long legs) when in a bathing suit. Which is when I first met her.

[intjguy]

the mexican thing i see as the "fake Ne" i mentioned.

Lol, wow. Scary.

[implied]

another thing i see is that INTjs generally expect a really stay-at-home traditional type mom person who wants to do tons of housework. an ESFp couldn't tolerate this (Se ego = greed for practical activity!) and the INTj would quickly becoming a boring and inflexible partner. i can just envision the ESFp leaving a dish to burn and the INTj berating the hell out of her instead of actually doing something haha. or the ESFp being too "rude"/aggressive or something. and generally "too cold" or formal or something, i think. i always think of how they say that INTjs maintain a very far psychological distance with people ( role) and i think this could consequently bug an ESFp.

[astralsilky]

another thing i see is that INTjs generally expect a really stay-at-home traditional type mom person who wants to do tons of housework. an ESFp couldn't tolerate this (Se ego = greed for practical activity!) and the INTj would quickly becoming a boring and inflexible partner. i can just envision the ESFp leaving a dish to burn and the INTj berating the hell out of her instead of actually doing something haha. or the ESFp being too "rude"/aggressive or something. and generally "too cold" or formal or something, i think. i always think of how they say that INTjs maintain a very far psychological distance with people ( role) and i think this could consequently bug an ESFp.

Sounds right.

Once on TV there was an INTj-ESFp couple undergo pseudo-"marriage counseling." The INTj husband was at his wits end. He expected "order and discipline" and was typically so irate, he regularly lashed out at the kids. The mediating "therapist" did not validate this guy's "felt needs" at all, which he was desperately seeking; rather, berated him for not controlling his anger better toward the kiddies.

The thing was, was I could feel for this guy ~ he was a clearcut INTj who truly WAS at the end of his rope and sincerely open to any advice on how he can cope with this environment. Through the show, you could begin to discern how he expected things to be clean, well-structured, for the kids to perform to a certain level of regular behavior whereby they each could develop their own inner self, a sense of mastery over whatever given task. He said he genuinely wanted what was best for these kids, and to provide them an environment whereby they can grow and excel as people - but, his wife "let them do whatever ~ there was no discipline." In his eyes, she was not doing her job.

His wife saw him as being a monster she didn't know what to do with. In her eyes, the kids were happiest when they were free to roam, explore, so long as they were kind and being loved. She didn't have high behavioral expectations wrt outer conformance to predetermined methods (Ti).

He saw the entire home environment, day-in and day-out, as an utter mess wrt rules. She also thought it was a mess, but wrt the quality of their interpersonal relations and lack of individual freedoms (Se Fi) to ensure "sane and happy" living.

The couple was bewildered by each other's expectations that they considered to be so normal and instinctive, they could hardly articulate precisely what they were, much less, in ways the other would understand and validate.

[Ms. Kensington]

She said stop contemplating and just do it if im gonna do it.

Conflictors playing nice.

[xyz]

So did you?

[Quirk Satellite Div.]

I am sure the INTj conflictor can spot the irrelevancy in that particular ESFp's logic.

[meatburger]

I am sure the INTj conflictor can spot the irrelevancy in that particular ESFp's logic.

Yeah but i think thats what makes them conflictors. Two very different ways of handling things that both have their advantages and disadvantages.

While thinking before you act is quite often an advantage for obvious reasons, its possible you might bog your self down and talk/scare yourself out of it. Sometimes throwing caution to the wind can be a great thing

[munenori2]

What do you kids think?

I'd say decide if she's worth going through emotional turmoil for. At least you know she likes you even though you sound like you have very different ways of looking at everything. However, the friend as a roomie thing seems like it could develop into something bad, not that I'm saying he's not trustworthy or anything. It's just that if you really invest yourself into this and she winds up being fickle, you've got a whole lot in the pot then. Somethings are worth taking that risk though. Do you think it is?

[intjguy]

Exactly.

Sure she is, she's hot after all. As far as emotional turmoil, I'm too pessimistic for that crum. Every girl is just practice for the next one unless she proves otherwise.


I'll see what happens.

[munenori2]

Exactly.

Sure she is, she's hot after all. As far as emotional turmoil, I'm too pessimistic for that crum. Every girl is just practice for the next one unless she proves otherwise.


I'll see what happens.

Wow, that does sound pessimistic. From the outside looking in it also looks sort of effed up.

[intjguy]

lol. I take that as a complement }:-)

[Satan]

esfp's are fickle in relationships.

just find another hot girl.

[intjguy]

OK.

[RSV3]

I got a DUI so I disappeared - there hasn't been a date between us since the first post. Now when I see her at random parties she's more interested every time. Probably because I'm a challenge; she thinks every girl in town is after me ha ha.

At the last party(last time I saw her) she was constantly eying me in my peripheral vision, for the first time I've seen her eyes deeply set on something instead of darting around. She grabs my hand to lead me outside and nags "Why don't you call?! You could at least call to talk!"
"I want to see those beautiful eyes when I talk to you." I replied.
She calls out "Don't give me that bullshit" like she usually does to my repartee of her silly love questions.

After I made a move she said "Girlfriend talk."
"What?" I asked.
"What does it take to be your girlfriend?"

I said I couldn't go to war without a horse. She said she'd pick me up. I was surprised, I just couldn't believe it. (After only two dates she's asking me to be exclusive ?!)

"Okay, I have your number" I said. This is what bothers me. I should have refused.. in my mind I only affirmed that I had her number, but I didn't agree to be her boyfriend. I don't know what she thinks. Girls are better at reading social situations though, right?

So I called her a week later for a date, she flaked me and moved in with my best friend (who blatantly wants to bang her, he even told me he loves her). Haven't heard from her since then (her phone is out of service), it's been 3 months since we've contacted, and I'm 3 months away from getting my license. Two months ago when I found out they were moving in, I asked my friend if it would jeopardize my relationship with him if I dated her once I get my license back.. "after all envy creates silent enemies!"- I said in a bitchy tone, he said no.

She has to be going crazy. Should I send her a letter? What should I do before she goes into revenge mode and fucks my friend? If she did it would be absolutely relieving in a way, an ending resolve to this stupid pursuance.

What do you kids think?
Well, in the end I can say, "I did pretty good for chasing a conflictor!" Well, at least on here anyway.

The only advice I can give you at this point is that you're not an INTj.

[intjguy]

The only advice I can give you at this point is that you're not an INTj.

Why's that?

[RSV3]

Why's that?

Eh, don't put much weight into what I said; it was just a preliminary observation based off of all the comments you've made in this thread. You seem to come off as more beta ST or even ESFp to me.

[Bluenoir]

I have been working at my local McDonalds for about two years now, and while I dislike it, it is still easy money. However, my job however has taken a turn for the worst.

A new full time shift supervisor, just happens to be a raging SEE. Why is this a problem you ask? Beacuse SEE just so happens to be my conflict, and true to the predictions of socionics, we do not get along.

Sure, next year I'll be off to do my bachelor of science, but untill then I have to deal with my vulnerable function shoved in my face Monday to Friday eight houres a day.

how do you guys deal with your conflict, when co-operation is necessary?

[Words]

It's difficult when the conflictor is extraverted, as they typically need to make their preference and attidues known, especially Se and Fe leading types.

I had a boss before who I believe was my conflictor, I actually ended up leaving, simply because it became too difficult to do the job in the face of endless interfering, and I reckoned that either I get something else or he'd eventually show me the door for some reason or other.

However, in mcdonalds, you can probably just limit the contact and stay busy working. My solution is simply to stay out there way as much as possible, when I do need to interact, give them what they want then leave as quickly as possible, in some environments this is easier than others.

Also, and it may be too late for you, don't try to initiate contact, conflictors can seem quite appealing at first, then it becomes pretty tough.

[EyeSeeCold]

Also, and it may be too late for you, don't try to initiate contact, conflictors can seem quite appealing at first, then it becomes pretty tough.

This was the problem with my initial mistypings. I am allured by ESEs, but it's only because they are projecting their Id in public.

[Bluenoir]

Also, and it may be too late for you, don't try to initiate contact, conflictors can seem quite appealing at first, then it becomes pretty tough.

It's way too late

I only have too deal with it for a few more months, then I going to do what I enjoy, studying.

I think what is hard for me to deal with, is her constant micromangement. Interfering with my methodology is a bad idea if you want to get on with me.

[Krig the Viking]

I used to work for my conflictor. After a while, I got so stressed out that I started becoming physically ill, which of course annoyed my boss because I kept calling in sick. I think he thought I was faking it. The only solution was to transfer to another branch.

Now I work for my Supervisee -- frustrating at times, but at least my poor Vulnerable function is safe.

And yes, the micromanaging is no fun. I don't mind being told what to do, but I mind rather a lot being told how to do it.

[ashlesha]

i used to have a conflictor boss. i tried adjusting to him with my knowledge of socionics, but i think there's really no escaping your ego functions (or at least i couldn't do it). i guess my only advice would be to keep interaction as minimal as possible (which i would guess you're probably already doing) and take solace in the fact that the situation is only temporary. :wink: my condolences.