It could also be mental experiences, in which case it doesn't have to be Sensing but can be Intuition. OP seems pretty focused on experiencing in that more abstract way. Other than that, can't say which kind of experience was meant in that sentence, could be Si, could be something else.Originally Posted by WinnieW
We all use both perception functions, sensing and intution, only one of them to a larger extend.
We all use Sensing, Thinking, Feeling and Intuition. Maybe that can be missunderstood. Our type is about what cognitive functions we preferably use.
NT types do use sensing and feeling either, but it's not our priority.
1) I need time to understand that I'm angry, and why, or that I'm sad and why, etc. I recognize better negative feelings than positive ones, in myself. I had an interessant discussion with my mom (ESE) about how she perceives others feelings, because she always asks to me to speak about them, but IDK specifically what she needs to know because I really don't 'feel' anything the biggest part of the time.
For example: If someone doesn't remind me birthdays, I don't remember them, but the ones that for me are meaningful yes (and I can count them on one hand fiingers). But, If someone reminds me the birthday I will say 'Happy Birthday' to the person sincerely. This, not because I don't care about people, but just, they are not my focus.
If I say 'Happy Birthday' for me it is enough. I don't know how to do 'small talk' about feelings, or other stuffs that are related to this, so I finished to learn how to do this and I do it in a not natural way (I ask always the same questions: did you make funny things, are you happy, etc). If I'm more natural because it's clear that a person is sad, I genuinely ask why, and I try to stay quiet and hear, because I really don't know how to be empatethic with these stuffs (I just purpose a way to solve the problem and for me it's all ok, but I recognized that people sometime don't want solutions, just empathy and I'm in trouble there).
If people want me to show my feelings I can do it only in a superficial way. If they ask to go deeper, I do only with people I feel comfortable with and only if they provide to me insight to what they want to know specifically, because my feelings are always vague, it's me that analyze and name them properly.
So, it's not that I'm detached and that I don't want to be involved in feelings, just not with all the people and not for long periods of time.
2) In some way I need some time to analyze what others expect me to do in social contexts. I don't know always when to show emotions, because it comes not natural for me, or, better, I need to be in the right state to show them naturally. For example, when my closest friend get married I started to jump on my feet and to smile and laugh loudly, but this was an exception. But, when a friend tries to scare me, my first reaction is not the fear, or surprise, etc, but to come close the new element and see what is it, and say 'Oh, you are touching me with a monster hand to scare me. Ok, I'm scared'. Or things like that... Another friend told a story and, while other know when smile, when be surprised, etc, I was so deep inside the story following the plot that I forget to show emotions.
Another difficulty is small talk, especially when someone introduces someone else to me. I start to ask some questions, but if he/she stops to reply I start to speak about myself (what I do, what I like) because I don't know how to deal with this. In some way what I do/like speaks for me only a little bit, because I'm sure they can't go deep to understand why I do/like things, so I feel sure enough to show these things to them.
Anyway usually I'm not interested in what people do, I'm interested in their ideas and this is another argument that is difficult to share in first meetings, or occasional ones, so I finish to be not comfortable the biggest part of time... or to share sides of me without being capable to acquire sides of others that are deeper.
Another thing, is that I prefer to don't ask directly questions to others.
It's something that I learned to do only recently. Usually I start to think at what I know about that person and to shape his 'model' in my mind.
LITTLE IMPORTANT ADD: On the other hand, I'm quick to correct others if I see they are wrong, and I do it in a direct way and clearly. I'm not soft in this, not because I want to be evil, but because I perceive they are focusing on the wrong side of the problem (that usually isn't the main side that they need to solve) and this is my way to take them out of what I perceive are troubles.
Or, there was a time that I was chatting with an IEI and a LIE. The LIE was really upset with me, and the IEI was trying to make me calm because in her opionion, the LIE wasn't angry. But I was sure about that, only through the words into messages. If I would say how I was sure about that, IDK really, but I was correct, he was upset with me and when I asked him directly (Are you upset with me?) he started to say: 'yes, I'm for these reasons'.
3) I can't explain properly why, but I tend to deal with others in a way that doesn't involve feelings, because I perceive this approach like a more 'correct' one.
For example, romantic relationships. I can't have on my shoulder the responsability of his feelings, because I perceive them like something precious, and fragile. For me is something serious, so I will do my best to don't hurt him. The problem is when he does something not acceptable, to express my reserve on that... if I perceive that he will take the thing personally, I will start to explain my intentions (I don't want to hurt you, but... I'm not judging you badly, but...). If he reacts in a bad way, the next time I will try to be less direct, but I can't simply pass on the thing I need to share with him. I hope he will understand, but if he doesn't to speak about the problem is really unpleasant for me, because I know that I have the 'power' to hurt him.
With people that I don't consider friends, it's the same. i prefer to argue on facts, reasoning, and to discuss ideas instead of something personal, because I don't want to push them badly into the soft part of their hearth. It's not because I have high consideration for them in this case, but more because I perceive that level like something 'mystical' and I don't want to dirt it with other stuffs... I think. I consciously don't know properly why I do this, but I need to do it.
Mmm I even don't know what do you mean. I saw my mother doing this, maybe. If my brother is in difficult with something, she tries to encourage him, even if he can't face the problem. If I do the same, I feel a little bit like a liar, because from my perspective is better to act with all the right infos at hand. So, if I suck in relationships, I prefer to hear that I suck and where and how to become better, instead 'you can do it!'. Or, better, I prefer 'you are wrong here and you have to do this, I believe that you are capable to do that, I believe in you', instead of 'you are awesome, you will do it'.
You could say, we are discussing about shades of meanings, but I perceive the bold sentence in a positive and clear way, and the underlined one like a lie.
4) Well, when I'm not in tune with my feelings I usually start to write a short story, or to imagine it. The characters are always from my imagination, never real. I don't put them in the same situation that I lived, but in a situation that let come outside my feelings... IDK if this has sense, but it's related to the way I perceive things that push my feelings outside. So, it's not the situation itself, but what it represents for me (the dynamic that represents for me) that has to be analyzed. So, I do it, I create the story and I observe how I let characters react, and I ask myself why. Usually I receive meaningful insights by this process.
Last edited by Shapeless; 10-06-2017 at 10:38 PM.
@WinnieW
I was speaking about real experiences, like in the world, alone or with people, in that particular statement.
With processes I intended what I imagine.
Things that I think and that I do it's written because even if I can stay a lot of time theorizing, at some point I need to put this ideas into practice to see how them work.
I need the 'proof' that what I thought was true, this gives to me a lot of self confidence, to have the evidence and makes real my capabilities, in some way... I doubt myself in this period, so this helps me to be ok.
You tend to check that your theories reflect reality well. I can see no contradiction.
There is nothing bad about having both a theoretical and a practical side as a person.
Being in touch with reality as a N type help you stay grounded.
@Shapeless I think my opinion is still the same after reading your post here and the discord discussion yesterday. Ti/Fe valuing Intuitive that doesn't have Ni ignoring (too much focus on it for that), LII still a good option
Female nt, I am thinking ILI more than LII because your receptivity to Fe sounds way lower than Fi, but I could be wrong. (95% certain tho) I like how female logical types are so NT but still well... sound like women. It's very interesting and nuanced.
Most other people seem to think you are LII but your over all essence feels 'critical' to me which is the role of ILI not LII.
Ty guys for all of your analysisI'm studying socionics, so a couple of questions on things that I do, and that I have difficulty to understand:
DIFFICULTIES (to find my correct PoLR):
1) I need always to learn. It's like I need to be rounded at 360° and IDK if this is type or enneagram (maybe 5w6) related. Suggestions?
2) If I see a good opportuniy that I know will be good for me and I can't act on it when I could I become restless. For example, I saw a good opportunity in a school when I was younger, but I needed my father permission. I became a little bit pushy (I started to annoy him to obtain the permission) because I wanted to act on that possibility, and I could, but it didn't depend entirely by me. Is this Se PoLR?
I ask because this happens only under stress, or when I feel I'm missing some good opportunity to grow, or when it's out of my control take or not the opportunity.
When finally I had the permission by my father, I felt like I made a concrete action to make a step toward my goal, and even if the school didn't start before a couple of months, I've waited patiently till the start of it.
3) I've finally find why I can't communicate properly with some people. I noticed that this afternoon with a friend. He told to me that he is focused on choosing the right words to explain properly his ideas, in a way that let him to convey thoughts to his listeners in a way that they can find acceptable (he is focused on adapt his words to the people, so they can accept his ideas-> Fe? Te?). Me, on the other hand, I'm focused on describing properly the concet itself, causes, transitions and consequences. I don't color my expression with things that can smooth the analysis, and my intention is properly this one, to describe the subject. Is not personal, and I don't want to convey personal judgements, like others seem to understand (why? I always say, before to start to speak, that it's NOT my intention to judge no one...). Is this lack of Fe or Fi? And what PoLR can cause that?
When I'm not explaining something, I can easily notice how people feelings change in relation at others worlds. I know more or less how they are feeling, but I need to be in a point of bservation that is outside the interaction, or I can't focus at the same time on explaining the concept and ooking at how people react to my words (unless when it's too late).
FUN FACTS:
My mind works in background. When I do stuffs, I'm not focused entirely on what I'm doing, but my mind always is checking external things or making connections with things I thought/saw before, like for example people behavior, situation that I have to understand deeper in my mind (why this happened, how, etc) or just theories. IDK if this is a Ti trait or some Nx trait. Suggestions?
This state of mind take me to really miss things in my environment. I literally don't pay attention on people and objects (Ehy Shapeless, did you see the beautiful plant with red flowers on the table in the kitchen? -> .... We really have something like that???) and I miss a lot of things 'around me' when I'm too much concentrate on my inner thoughts.
'Critical' is the key word. I don't do it to be evil, but a lot of people underline this trait of me (and add: polemic).
On Fe/Fi I'm still studying.
This involves some Ne as well as Te.
High Ne.Ty guys for all of your analysis
DIFFICULTIES (to find my correct PoLR):
1) I need always to learn. It's like I need to be rounded at 360° and IDK if this is type or enneagram (maybe 5w6) related. Suggestions?
Again this sounds like lead or perhaps demonstrative Ne. I would say ILE > LII. Forget about "PoLR" - the vulnerable function is only 1 out 8 aspects in Model A.2) If I see a good opportuniy that I know will be good for me and I can't act on it when I could I become restless. For example, I saw a good opportunity in a school when I was younger, but I needed my father permission. I became a little bit pushy (I started to annoy him to obtain the permission) because I wanted to act on that possibility, and I could, but it didn't depend entirely by me. Is this Se PoLR?
Again, more Ne.My mind works in background. When I do stuffs, I'm not focused entirely on what I'm doing, but my mind always is checking external things or making connections with things I thought/saw before, like for example people behavior, situation that I have to understand deeper in my mind (why this happened, how, etc) or just theories. IDK if this is a Ti trait or some Nx trait. Suggestions?
Yes, that's because Ne inhibits Si (and Se).This state of mind take me to really miss things in my environment. I literally don't pay attention on people and objects (Ehy Shapeless, did you see the beautiful plant with red flowers on the table in the kitchen? -> .... We really have something like that???) and I miss a lot of things 'around me' when I'm too much concentrate on my inner thoughts.
PS: where's the video?
Lost in billion things to do
PS: where's the video?
Like asked... in delay
"Shapeless". Your name seems to ring a bell. Have we crossed paths before?
Mmm I'm on some discord channels and on some forum of socionics. Is this the case?
I used to be on a few of them, so perhaps I remember seeing your name? It's good to see you again I guess??
Well I guess so
We had a brief discussion yesterday and my impression was ILI.
Quite a lot of focus on Ni, Fi, Se - personal development, clear goals but with a focus on innovation, still with a touch of traditional values - with a clear intuitive bent (ESI or SEI - very unlikely, those types also don't usually have a problem with chores or people). I would not exclude LIE, but the LIEs I know have a more nervous and forward vibe, and are usually worse at analyzing themselves. I would similarly rule out ILE, due to the introverted vibe. LII - I ruled it out because she describes herself as different from people with IJ temperament.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I'm also inclined towards ILI. You take time in to your hands but also know when to act and how to butit seems like someone else should be mobile while you're act more like coordinator.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
After your video, I still think gamma NT. The story about pushing yourself so hard that you collapsed and had to be brought to the hospital says probably Se/Ni and LIE more than ILI, but it sounds like that was an isolated incident and you say you identify more with IP than EJ. Still Se/Ni quadra and I enjoyed hearing about your dynamic perception compared to your friend's static view. Adding that you go into your head not noticing the things around you is an introverted quality too. Body language is more introverted than extroverted, and the comments about criticality also are more in line with ILI. I think both ILI and LIE are possible for your type, perhaps ILI-Te would make the most sense after all.
IEI
Basically, Donald Trump is your dual...
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
EIE
nope
How you can type Lana del Rey and Donald Trump the same type is just .... there are no words.
@Shapeless in the video you are like an identical twin to my IEI daughter :-)
I think you can easily narrow your type down to two possibilities being those with Ni first however IEI more likely than ILI.
correctly
> there are no words
I know that there are no serious arguments against this opinion.
owned; no words = no argument. pack it up ti-ailures
It's so obviously stupid and they're so OBVIOUSLY different that there's no use for words.
trump is totally a beta extrovert
lol really? i actually tend to agree with smilingeyes who had Trump as ILE - Ti
What make you think Donald Trump leads with, not with
?
I see him as SLE-Ti —-PoLR
@Shapeless
Uih, is Shapeless the correct choice of nickname? You have a beautiful shape.
From Jungs versions of the types, Trump does fit extroverted intuition best.
I think Trump does bit similar juxtapositions as ILE's for example do. SEE makes more sense than SLE sharing similar styles but I'm not sure. He has some lasting long distance goals/wishful thinking as well which sounds more SEE.
Anyways Shapeless seems to have creative. Eye for something productive.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
For real...?
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Yes. Read it.
Socionics uses same Jung's types. While Jung's functions descriptions are worse. Also relating even to same theory is not single-valued, what is seen on typing matches <20%. Trump is clear fuhrer-style EIE.
No, if to take functions definitions, but possibly if to use expanded descriptions.
She talks about _the first_ functions descriptions, made by Jung in his book. Near those glory times he mixed T with I, for example, and could be misleaded in secondary nuances later. Jung was not perfect, "surprisingly".
You say you follow Jungs types... but then ignore what Jung actually say about them himself, and follow other socionics descriptions youve handpicked that don't sound at all like what Jung described them to be. makes sense.
Trump is not a natural "führer" to me at all. And that's why he's so goofy and no one takes him seriously. If he had those talents, people would be respecting him and not making fun of him all the time.
Your typings makes 0 sense
Thank you guys for replies and insights
@FDG
When I opened the topic, I had narrowed down my type on 4 types, with ILI or LIE included. Learning more about socionics, I was unsure because their descriptions. ILI is described like the one that can understand all and always before things happen, and that is never wrong on judjing people, the master of strategies... I make effort in recognize myself in that, just because I'm human and I make errors like everyone else.
I would say in me there is the will to explore the outcome of situations, how they will play out, etc, but I'm far away better with systems than people, and I make a more linear (but hidden, this is true) way to accomplish my goals. Sneaky but not so intricate like ILI and LIE are described (think about Machiavelli, or in fiction Littlefinger: I'm not like them).
Possibilities are: I'm not an ILI/LIE, or differences intratype.
About being Si, that I've considered for a short while too. Si is described attentive to details, and I'm not; attentive to facial expressions of people, body gestures, and I bypass largely these infos (I've started to read books about that, but usually I derive my reasons by actions or comparing previous seen processes to the new ones and adjusting previous meaning with the new one). I'm largely unattentive to make beautiful environment, I'm more focused on my mind than my body, so basing on the Si definition I wouldn't describe me in that way.
@Troll Nr 007
Not like a coordinator, I need time to analyze and acquire infos. Usually in my mind I have some probabilities about how the situation will evolve, but I need some facts to prove that my theories are right. So I can wait for a while before to act, or just do something to cut off probabilities and be more precise.
Being precise is something that I try hard to do, always, it's a behavior that I did from when I remember. For this reason I've considered LII when it was purposed here. But, If I'm one, I have a strange approach to laws for a Ti dom. Again, here I go under the law, to understand how and why apply it. It's like I'm always reframing reality, like wearing different glasses and having to decide which one let me to see the reality in the more precise way.
For this reason I search always points of reframe, small but precise indicators that suggest to me which kind of glasses I have to wear to understand properly the situation, which kind of processes to choose to describe them properly or which kind of processes mix and adjust to be specific and precise. It's a pyramid process that I do, from general to specific.
About my eyes, LOL. People say that they feel analyzed by me, and that I try to look into the back of their minds, or soulsI look for causes and core of problems, to solve them... I dig a lot in people words, or actions, to think about causes. Usually causes give properties to processes that are similar when they happen again, and causes can be a good point of reference, or point to act on it to derive different falls of actions if modified.
@squark
EJ are too much restless described. Again, I say I identify more in Ip than in EJ because of descriptions, but IDK if these descriptions are too much extreme for Italian people (just for example). Like I say in the video, here more or less everyone acts a bit like Alpha: it's because they are Alphas, or because the habits that we have? It seems like I can be something in the middle between Ip and Ej... I've cut off Ep because they are described like static and I'm not.
If I read about older Temperaments (http://archive.fighunter.com/?page=temperaments) I recognize myself on melanchonic and choleric (the latter is universal recognized by my friends and relatives LOL). That are Ip and Ej, again.
@Sol @Shay
Can you explain to me where is Fe?
I've thought about being Fe creative because the strange dynamic that I have with F and T people.
F people (like my ESE) say that I'm too much cold, and that I approach stuffs from a detached point of view etc etc, that I have to express more appreciation and feelings in relationships, that I'm too much harsh and that I don't appreciate mannerism (all true).
On the other hand I have a group of friends that is beta T, and they are stronger and faster than me in physical stuffs or actions... I'm more or less their mascotte ('-'). I can be more straightfoward with them without worrying about every-single-word that I say, or my tone, etc: they appreciate my point of view on things, hear my suggestions and don't take things personal like F people tend to do with me. They say I'm not so T like them because I try always to find middle ground between T and F sides of me (DA cognitive style or 9 enneagram) and they appreciate this thing, and they say they feel well understood, but also they can have solutions by my suggestions.
I don't pay so much attention on Fe things, so at the end I've always thought Te>Fe, or Fi>Fe or maybe 9 in my enneagram, ordering them by most probable to less probable.
@WinnieW
Do you still see TiNe or NeTi?
Such are primary impressions from your nonverbal. You may look at my types examples and compare between duals for IEI and for other types to decide which ones you prefer.
Apologies but I don’t have time to rewatch your video at present but there are non verbal aspects of typing such as mannerisms etc that can be more reliable at times than presented words.
A fairly common trait in IEI’s and not so ILI’s is the occasional change in life’s history to their own story version.
Perhaps ask siblings and parents (not friends) if this applies to yourself or not.
I think gamma NT as well. To me it's clear you are Se valuing. Next guess would be LSI.
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