Eminem

[Chae]

Yeah I noticed that! What a Beta convention...
I just can't get on board with Eminem being an Introvert, and most interviews I've seen him in he seems Fe-Valuing.

Thought the same, EIE for her
I think that as well, slightly more energizing than integrating, although hm... Need to look at something. He has very weird moments of trying to be funny here ("different personalities!!" "mushrooms on a pizza" etc) where he gets goofy. I'm guessing Fe is going on.

[Tigerfadder]

lsi or sli

[Jake]

Thought the same, EIE for her
I think that as well, slightly more energizing than integrating, although hm... Need to look at something. He has very weird moments of trying to be funny here ("different personalities!!" "mushrooms on a pizza" etc) where he gets goofy. I'm guessing Fe is going on.

and much closer to this:

rather than this:

[Singu]

I think comparing Eminem to Trump is pretty ridiculous... There's a reason why most people type him as an Ip. However he only comes across as Fe PoLR in interviews. His music is just not Fe PoLR.

[Chae]

and much closer to this:

rather than this:

YES. Super good. Trump - straightforward, a bit piercing (he talks waayyy different nowadays wtf happened, the more recent version is closer to Eminem). Talks low but that's no indicator. De Niro - more commenting than initiating from this perspective, earthier, constructing thought very visibly, easily suggested by the audience and jokes.

[Jake]

YES. Super good. Trump - straightforward, a bit piercing (he talks waayyy different nowadays wtf happened, the more recent version is closer to Eminem). Talks low but that's no indicator. De Niro - more commenting than initiating from this perspective, earthier, constructing thought very visibly, easily suggested by the audience and jokes.

Yeah I just wanted to find an interview of Trump where he doesn't seem on the defensive, but maybe that's how Eminem kind of always is anyways... Oh well

[Singu]

The only thing that they have in common is that they both show very little emotion . Very superficial typing. Eminem has a lot of nervous energy and he's kind of passive in a way and goes with the flow. Trump is the... opposite of that. He shows very little nervousness and he appears cool-headed and self-assured, like nothing phases him.

If you notice, Eminem actually often takes a "tag-along" or "secondary" roles, like being a Robin to Dr. Dre's Batman, and he often lets himself take that role to Dr. Dre, which for SLEs (or Se-leads) is just... no...:



I haven't seen 8 Mile, but I'm guessing that he takes a similar role in the movie.

[Chae]

Yeah I just wanted to find an interview of Trump where he doesn't seem on the defensive, but maybe that's how Eminem kind of always is anyways... Oh well

Hm - indeed. Probably rather makes enneagram differences clear, M&M is on guard and attacking threats, Trumpet wants to stay on top without seeming vulnerable.

[Chae]

The only thing that they have in common is that they both show very little emotion . Very superficial typing. Eminem has a lot of nervous energy and he's kind of passive in a way and goes with the flow. Trump is the... opposite of that. He shows very little nervousness and he appears cool-headed and self-assured, like nothing phases him.

If you notice, Eminem actually often takes a "tag-along" or "secondary" roles, like being a Robin to Dr. Dre's Batman, and he often lets himself take that role to Dr. Dre, which for SLEs (or Se-leads) is just... no...:



I haven't seen 8 Mile, but I'm guessing that he takes a similar role in the movie.

Secondary roles is not IE-related but again, E6, guidance issue. What helps here though is! That he's with Dre, who helped him... my intertype relationship radar is on

[Singu]

Secondary roles is not IE-related but again, E6, guidance issue. What helps here though is! That he's with Dre, who helped him... my intertype relationship radar is on

Yeah, I'd agree that it's e6, but it also goes against the entire description of Se-lead and SLE, which is the need to be the "boss" and come on top of everything, at all costs. Dre actually seems like an LIE.

Anyway, his earlier stuff is more stereotypically mystical Ni, and even very soft and sentimental at times, for example like this song:

"Searchin'"

[Verse 1: Eminem]
I'm reminiscing on your tenderness and the snuggling and teasing
Missing what I remember, kissing and hugging and squeezing
Bugging and weezing, I'm having trouble when breathing
It's even tougher when sleeping
But there's a couple of reasons that I'm suffering and grieving
For loving and leaving, you all I'm thinking of in the evening
You got my knees buckling and weakening

I feel a passionate lust when I'm imagining just us alone at last with a touch
I see you grasping to trust, but my intentions are good
The seed is passing in dust
I'm not asking to rush and answer immediately
I just wanna be there for you and you to be there for me
If you agree to repeat after me, I Love You (I love you baby)
Cause I just need you to see, how much I'm eager to be
Your man legally wed, your love's keeping me fed
This is easily said, so you can lead or be led
If you care to be down cause ain't nobody Like you no where to be found

There is obviously a lot of confidence in his emotional expressions, as well as intelligence and understanding in reading the other person. There's also a tendency to go with the flow, like "you can lead or be led".

I'd say his later stuff is just a persona that he's made up for show, for PR to sell records. The "angry man" image may be a part of him, but it seems to be exaggerated and he's nothing like that in his first record, "Infinite".

This is what confuses people when they're typing Betas, because they tend to create some alter-egos and personas that are for public, and they're nothing like that in private.



So Ni:

"Infinite"

Man I got evidence I'm never dense and I been clever ever since
My residence was hesitant to do some shit that represents the M-O
So I'm assuming all responsibility
Cause there's a monster will in me that always wants to kill MC's
Mic messaler, slamming like a wrestler
Here to make a mess of a lyric smuggling embezzler
No one is specialer, My skill is intergalactical
I get cynical act a fool then I send a crew back to school
I never packed a tool or acted cool, it wasn't practical
I'd rather let a tactical, tact full track tickle your fancy
In fact I can't see, or can't imagine
A man who ain't a lover of beats or a fan of scratching
This is for my family, the kid who had a cameo on my last jam
Plus the man who never had a plan B
Be all you can be, cause once you make an instant hit
I'm tensed a bit and tempted when I see the sins my friends commit...
I'm Infinite

[maniac]

so/sx 6w5

[Singu]

A lot of Ni planning and visions of the future, nothing like Se, also some victimized attitude:

"It's Ok"

[Verse 1: Eminem]
One day I plan to be a family man happily married
I wanna grow to be so old that I have to be carried
Till I'm glad to be buried
And leave this crazy world
And have at least a half a million for my baby girl
It may be early to be planning this stuff
Cause I'm still struggling hard to be the man, and it's tough
Cause man it's been rough, but still I manage enough
I've been taken advantage of, damaged and scuffed
My hands have been cuffed

Eminem- It's OK (Infinite)

This is creative Fe:

"Tonight"

[Eminem:]
Cause we came here to do this tonight
We don't wanna fight, we don't want no one feeling uptight
Cause we came here to do this tonight
Till the morning light hope that everyone's feeling alright

Eminem - Tonight with lyrics

[Jake]

There's an interview with him and Jake Gyllenhaal (IEI). You should be able to, at least, tell that they are not the same type.

https://youtu.be/1NCjLxKK_OI

[Singu]

I think Gyllenhaal is more IEE, and this is more Se role (from about 40 sec):



And anyway, Eminem is even more introverted, low-energy and nervous than Gyllenhaal.

[Singu]

His letter to Tupac's mom, and how he was a big fan of Tupac:

"Just Don't Give A Fuck"

[Chorus:]
So when you see me on your block with two glocks
Screaming "Fuck the World" like Tupac
I just don't give a fuck!
Talking that shit behind my back, dirty mackin
Telling your boys that I'm on crack
I just don't give a fuck!
So put my tape back on the rack
Go run and tell your friends my shit is wack
I just don't give a fuck!
But see me on the street and duck
'Cause you gon' get stuck, stoned and snuffed
'Cause I just don't give a fuck!

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/emine...giveafuck.html

[niffer]

I thought IEI for Eminem for a while, changed to LSI, and am finally ending it back on IEI for him...

I was listening to 50 Cent who is most definitely an SLE, and there were some periods where him and Eminem worked closely together, and they were seen as a dangerous dynamic duo of sorts. Side by side with 50 Cent especially (though this isn't the only reason), it's very clear that Eminem is not his mirror. He is clearly his opposite in almost every way except for having grown up in a ghetto kind of situation and being a rapper. Eminem has quite a bit of controlled emotional emphasis when he raps, so I'm not sure where the Fe polr ideas are coming from. His permanent lifelong persona is basically of this wimpy disadvantaged person who wants to grow strong and get respect from others, and writes very imaginative playful lyrics compared to most other rappers. Not an Se polr; he can still be cutting and has a lot of Se and Fe anger. IEI final.

[niffer]

It's comical actually. SLE-IEI duality



wow....

[Singu]

I thought 50 cent was SEE, but he could also be SLE.

[Singu]

He puts too much emotions into his songs to be an ILI. I think these are more obviously IEI:

[Jerdle]

SLE. Definitely Se-ego. ESI is too weak in Ne, as is LSI, leaving SEE and SLE. I think he 's SLE, but SEE wouldn't be impossible.

[The Reality Denialist]

Beta ST, SLE. He looks very serious from time to time.

LSI-Se?

[Delilah]

SLI is not a bad typing for him imo

[flames]

LSI

[Becca]

ESI cause he is confident in emotions, Ne seeking with his lyrics, spontaneous and mellow IP temperament, very deep and thoughtful introvert, but yet also loves to turn everything around with his strong ironic satirical humor- Alpha!
I LOVE him

[Jake]

ILE

[darya]

Se-creative, could be LSI, 6w7

[Pookie]

He has that unmistakable special type of Te ornery.

[Singu]

You guys are terrible at typing or just stereotypical, anyone who is even a little bit aggressive or offensive gets type as Se or T type.

[flames]

You guys are terrible at typing or just stereotypical, anyone who is even a little bit aggressive or offensive gets type as Se or T type.

Well that's just not true. Tupac was often very in your face/offensive and the collective vote for him is IEI, for ex. I often like your analyses, but I think you too often try to stray from what is collective for the sake of differing (some others here are guilty of that, too). Though there isn't much consensus here for him with typings all over the place, I see a trend of either ISTP or INFJ for him in MBTI. Personally, I think there is nothing Ip about him and his Ni is on par with creative, Ni HA artists'.

As far as likely types for him go, I'd say LSI > ESI > IEI

[Singu]

Well that's just not true. Tupac was often very in your face/offensive and the collective vote for him is IEI, for ex. I often like your analyses, but I think you too often try to stray from what is collective for the sake of differing (some others here are guilty of that, too). Though there isn't much consensus here for him with typings all over the place, I see a trend of either ISTP or INFJ for him in MBTI. Personally, I think there is nothing Ip about him and his Ni is on par with creative, Ni HA artists'.

As far as likely types for him go, I'd say LSI > ESI > IEI

...No, a lot of people type Eminem as IEI. Anyway, I'm not really into typing anymore, but if you want Ni, then "Lose Yourself" is actually a pretty good example of Ni. There is a lot of nervous energy, like something is about to happen and you'd have to make a decision. It's also in the intro of the song "Rap God": "Something's wrong, I can feel it. Just a feeling I've got, like something's about to happen, but I don't know what". That is Ni.

And anyway, his "Slim Shady" is just his persona, he's actually a very different person, especially when he was very young.

[flames]

...No, a lot of people type Eminem as IEI.

Yes, MBTI INFJ = IEI

"Something's wrong, I can feel it. Just a feeling I've got, like something's about to happen, but I don't know what". That is Ni.

I think that's heavily steoretypical and not indicative of Ni ego alone. It's also a common theme among xSI songs (IxI too, but it pops out more in xSI music - for xSI that theme alone runs deep enough for them, but actual Ni doms produce things with themes usually too large to want to focus on something that is not so special to them - that feeling is more special and peculiar to Se egos). It also fits with any 6 at all, sometimes Si ego, sometimes Ne ego, even lesser Se ego. It's part of human nature to be on the lookout and notice something is up before (in time for it) it happens.

And anyway, his "Slim Shady" is just his persona, he's actually a very different person, especially when he was very young.

It obviously is, but that doesn't rule out Se ego. Biggie (Notorious B.I.G.) played up a badass SLE-type image in his music but was different in real life, too, but still ESI/Se ego. 6 also plays up their power when CP.

[Kill4Me]

ESI-Se....the 'keeping it real' type. Yielding, Introvert, Rational, Negativist, Serious, Ethical

yielding > obstinate is pretty obvious from his rap lyrics.

He's too 'hard' for an IEI. Beta NF is not even a tomboyish type.

He is also too irreverent for LSI. Consequently, that's also the problem with typing Hitchens LSE. LSIs avoid open displays of iconoclasm and in your face fuck-you-ness. LSI aggression really operates behind the scenes. That's the nature of the type; an operative. They take more steps to wipe off trails leading back to them.

Irreverence is not a problem for ILE (nor for some other types), especially not ILE-Ne. Consequently, that's another reason why Manson is not LSI. However, Eminem's irreverence shows up more through his emotional realness. "Keeping it real." An ILE's irreverence shows up through their intuitions.

For his enneagram type, sx/sp cp6w7 works. Among other reasons, the "assertive bluffing" -- an apt phrase Naranjo uses to describe the counterphobic six -- reminds me of a guy who used to post here Absurd (LSE cp6w7 sx/sp).

[Singu]

What most people don't realize is that Beta NFs are actually very internally aggressive. Moreso for EIEs than IEIs. But you won't see that on the surface.

And anyway, a lot of these typings are based on the stereotype that ESIs/LSIs are this badass muthafucka types, which is something that is not actually quite reflected in real life. It also contradicts the idea that Fi-dom is all about being moral and ethical and proper. Typing Eminem as ESI is about as convincing as typing Eminem as EII. Pretty much all of his songs are about being as unethical as possible.

But first, his "hardness", roughness, harshness that you see in him is just his persona. He admits that his "Slim Shady" persona is something that he just created to be as offensive as possible to deal with his problems. His ex-GF Kim paints quite a different picture of him, she has said that he is actually a very good husband and father and so on. And so has his mother, whom she says that he was a very nice boy as a child. There is nothing that is actually "hard" about him. So if you type him based on his hardness, then you're not actually typing him, but his persona.

Second, in his lyrics, he is an irrational incarnate. He is also very imaginative, and makes things up and raps about things that never probably really happened. This indicates N. His skill with his language, his wordsmithery is also more likely an NF trait. He is very good at languages and coming up with rhymes. You don't get the "duh, obvious" real-world literalness that you often get from S types.

Case in point... he writes stuff like this, which who knows it's actually true or not, and it's also self-depreciating, which points more to a Victim type:

I came to the club drunk with a fake ID
Don't you want to grow up to be just like me?
I've been with 10 women who got HIV
Now don't you want to grow up to be just like me?
I got genital warts and it burns when I pee
Don't you want to grow up to be just like me?
I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree
You probably want to grow up to be just like me

These lyrics, also show devalued Te:

Now I got the Industry pissy ever since me and Dre split it fifty-fifty on fifty it's funny
We got a buzz spreading quicker than making paper-airplanes out of a twenty
Fuck money I don't rap for dead presidents
I'd rather see the president dead

What is money?
Money is what makes a man act funny
Money is the root of all evil
Money'll make them same friends come back around
swearing that they was always down

[Jake]

@Singularity

Well, considering persona and personality are the same thing, it would be smart to type his persona to get to know his personality. Wouldn't you think?

Nothing of what you pointed out would be inconsistent with ESI, and no, Romance Styles are not a thing. His imaginative abilities give credo to something stronger than 2D N, yes, but which is it? Considering he's already built up an image of a hard-nosed guy, but the people who are close to him say he is actually good-natured and a good father speak a lot to Se and quite possibly Fi. Keep in mind that all of your points are not necessarily opposing the ESI typing. A lot of his lyrics come from how he feels about things and an expression of his ideas, not aiming to change or influence others to do something (Fe Ego), but rather Fi Ego. So we can say that he is strong in both Fi and Se. His Ti comes in his ability to remove himself and rap towards things from a logical viewpoint; something that would be difficult for a 1D Ti type to pull off. Not to mention his consistent lack of Ne, something you would see from time to time if he were IEI.

Again, nothing you've stated directly contradicts ESI.

[Singu]

@passenger

Persona and personality aren't necessarily the same thing, but I've already said that Beta NFs are internally aggressive. His "offensiveness" is based more on imagination, than something that actually happened or based on reality.

Imaginative abilities are just N in general. Lyrical acrobacy and wordsmithery is usually NF. Creating "personas" is Fe in the first place, especially Beta NFs. Just look at his lyrics about Kim or his mom or whomever he wants to "diss"; his lyrics are all about having emotional impacts on whomever he's singing about. Not all Fe is concerned with changing or influencing or rallying others into doing something. They also sing about whatever that they're feeling. But they will affect others through their own sadness, anger, happiness, etc, to make them feel those exact emotions, which is what Eminem is doing.

Saying things like "Fuck money, I don't sing for dead presidents" is more "spiritual" endeavor that Aristocratic types are concerned with. That's why Beta and Delta types tend to be touchy about things like money.

[Jake]

@passenger

Persona and personality aren't necessarily the same thing, but I've already said that Beta NFs are internally aggressive. His "offensiveness" is based more on imagination, than something that actually happened or based on reality.

Imaginative abilities are just N in general. Lyrical acrobacy and wordsmithery is usually NF. Creating "personas" is Fe in the first place, especially Beta NFs. Just look at his lyrics about Kim or his mom or whomever he wants to "diss"; his lyrics are all about having emotional impacts on whomever he's singing about. Not all Fe is concerned with changing or influencing or rallying others into doing something. They also sing about whatever that they're feeling. But they will affect others through their own sadness, anger, happiness, etc, to make them feel those exact emotions, which is what Eminem is doing.

Anyone can have imaginative abilities, typically 'imagination' is Ni. And yes, persona and personality are synonyms for each other. Yes, some Beta NFs like to create images for themselves (Marilyn Manson comes to mind), but it doesn't mean "Oh, you're protecting an image? = Beta NF". Much like Taylor Swift, and I saw you having the same problem with typing her as Fi-Lead, his songs sre focused on his sentiments towards other people and not in the way of influencing or promoting anything. Do his lyrics sometimes result in that? Perhaps, but it isn't his primary motivation. Rather Fe is definitely subdued.

[Singu]

@passenger

Yes, anyone can have an imagination, but Ne-PoLR typically self-describe themselves as not being very imaginative or are annoyed by fanciful thinking. It's just N in general, and probably F over T. SEIs are pretty imaginative, for example. But their imagination are still usually based on reality.

It's not just "Some Beta NFs", the name for EIEs is the "Actor", which means that their whole type revolves around creating personas. It's not about "protecting an image", it's about creating an image.

If you notice, Eminem and Taylor Swift are actually doing similar things (no wonder that Taylor Swift is a fan of Eminem and covered his song Lose Yourself). They will both "diss" whomever that they're irritated with, and thinks of deserving their ire. Their "disses" are often very fiery and focus on maximum negative emotional impact of their targets. I'd say you just have a rather stereotypical view of Fe. Fe doesn't always sing about influencing others 24/7. Fe also sings about sentiments toward other people. Fe also sings about expressing their own emotions, which could indirectly affect others' emotional states. Fe also sings about themselves. What you're describing is more Fe-base.

If you notice, Fi usually has a theme of relational reconciliation than Fe.

[Jake]

@passenger

Yes, anyone can have an imagination, but Ne-PoLR typically self-describe themselves as not being very imaginative or are annoyed by fanciful thinking. It's just N in general, and probably F over T. SEIs are pretty imaginative, for example. But their imagination are still usually based on reality.

It's not just "Some Beta NFs", the name for EIEs is the "Actor", which means that their whole type revolves around creating personas. It's not about "protecting an image", it's about creating an image.

If you notice, Eminem and Taylor Swift are actually doing similar things (no wonder that Taylor Swift is a fan of Eminem and covered his song Lose Yourself). They will both "diss" whomever that they're irritated with, and thinks of deserving their ire. Their "disses" are often very fiery and focus on maximum negative emotional impact of their targets. I'd say you just have a rather stereotypical view of Fe. Fe doesn't always sing about influencing others 24/7. Fe also sings about sentiments toward other people. Fe also sings about expressing their own emotions, which could indirectly affect others' emotional states. Fe also sings about themselves. What you're describing is more Fe-base.

If you notice, Fi usually has a theme of relational reconciliation than Fe.

Eh I would say that's more Ni PoLR than anything. Ne deals with ambiguity whereas Ni deals with the long-term implications of events; LSEs and ESEs try to cram everything into one minute, so it seems.

Well you kind of just proved my point saying that Fi is the relational side of the two Ethical IMs. Both Taylor Swift & Eminem focus on these things and express their sentiments towards others in poetry and song-writing. Incredibly different from an Fe approach, from say someone like Bob Dylan & Kurt Cobain to Bjork & Adele. All four of which DO express their sentiments, but it's in the way of influencing other's to do things; appealing to someone else's emotional state. What Taylor & Eminem do differently is express whatever they are personally feeling in a much more ego-centric approach. Eminem takes the harsher route with Se and Taylor takes the sort of ambiguous & whimsical route with Ne.

[Singu]

@passenger

It's the XSEs that are more likely to come up with "whacky randomness and imagination" than XSIs.

Well, first we'd have to define what Fi-dom is. Fi-dom has to do with creating relational ideals. It's about telling people how to behave in relation to each other, especially those that are close to them.

Both Fe and Fi talk about relationships, you're just being too rigid in those functions and stereotypes. However, Fe is typically more "emotionally expressive" than Fi. Jeff Buckley also sings about relationships, Tori Amos also sings about relationships. But there is much more focus on expression their own emotions. If you look at the lyrics on Beyonce's album "Lemonade", then there actually isn't that much about expressing emotions.

Again, "expressing what you're personally feeling" isn't necessarily Fi (emotional expressions are Fe in the first place). What you're talking about has more to do with Fe-base. XEIs also express what they're personally feeling. Both Eminem and Taylor are highly expressive with their feelings, with is more Fe than Fi.

[Jake]

@passenger

It's the XSEs that are more likely to come up with "whacky randomness and imagination" than XSIs.

Well, first we'd have to define what Fi-dom is. Fi-dom has to do with creating relational ideals. It's about telling people how to behave in relation to each other, especially those that are close to them.

Both Fe and Fi talk about relationships, you're just being too rigid in those functions and stereotypes. However, Fe is typically more "emotionally expressive" than Fi. Jeff Buckley also sings about relationships, Tori Amos also sings about relationships. But there is much more focus on expression their own emotions. If you look at the lyrics on Beyonce's album "Lemonade", then there actually isn't that much about expressing emotions.

Again, "expressing what you're personally feeling" isn't necessarily Fi (emotional expressions are Fe in the first place). What you're talking about has more to do with Fe-base. XEIs also express what they're personally feeling. Both Eminem and Taylor are highly expressive with their feelings, with is more Fe than Fi.

Not really. And no, I'm going by definitions but yet you keep bringing up stereotypes & neo-Socionics bullshit to try and prove your point but you're really not proving anything. I also don't think Fi has anything to do with how another person is acting in a relationship, because it's all about the individual and their own compass. Fe takes into account ideas like unity, sacrificing for the group, and putting the emotions of others' before one's own. Telling someone in song that you're going to 'fucking kill them' isn't any of that, it's putting one's own attitude before someone elses's (Fi).