This is how I visualize it. I'm interested in what Ti valuers think..Originally Posted by lungs
Te treats ideas like blocks you can move around to change the outcome/speed. It pretends that you can do this without needing to change the block.
Ti understands the essence of ideas but tends not to rearrange the processing order of operations.
People with Te or Ti first or second have competence with it's alternate attitude.
route learning, instruction manual steps vs understanding
But this is how they would prefer to manifest. Te wants to reach the point by the fastest and most efficient means (does not mean it will), whereas ideally Ti is happier creating a wider and more in depth system before reaching conclusions (but is obviously capable of getting to the point by the fastest and most efficient means). Whether a type is result or process oriented depends on all the factors that make that personality, but this is how the functions would prefer to manifest by themselves. It's not about competence.
+1
That's really funny.
I see Ti as being a drawing in which all the lines are clearly connected in an orderly way, and Te being all over the place and fragmented- basically with Te, it seems like you pick whatever line you need to get to the goal but they don't ever meet up with each other.
However, if what you're mapping out is a process to reach a goal, then I think the OP makes sense. Ti isn't about that, so you get a cross-section of a bunch of different related ideas.
If instead what you're mapping out is how the ideas relate, you see that none of the Te lines really relate at all (...this is how it often seems in my head as a Te PoLR lol.)
Te- external dynamics of objects
external- meaning out in the world and separate from you
dynamics- in motion
objects- "things" separate from each other and with their own unique properties
So Te is about how external objects of varying quality move around together. It tries to make the movements more efficient.
Ti- external statics of fields
external- out in the world and separate from you
statics- unmoving, a "photograph"
fields - the relationships between objects
So Ti looks at separate objects in the external world as being related to each other in a specific, unchanging way. It tries to clarify these relationships.
Ti is process oriented, Te is goal oriented. Ti is the car that needs an established network of roads to travel over. Te is the motorcycle that can take short cuts, but needs to know where things are relative to each other. Ti is handicapped by a lack of a path, Te by a lack of factual information.
Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 04-12-2014 at 02:13 AM.
ha, this would be Ni or Ne
this is basically what I thought was meant by "external", "internal", "objects", and "fields", but apparently that isn't the case:
Objects:
Things that can be observed, studied, and discussed apart from the subject (observer)
Fields:Things that are perceived through the subject by means of feelings and cannot be studied apart from the subject
anyway, I don't buy it; I think "fields" are like the "conditions" under which the individual "objects" operate
I think Te is merely the perception of the explicit dynamics of objects
likewise, I think Ti is merely the perception of the statics of fields, although I think such information is implicit rather than explicit
lol i agree, it seems more like Ne.
the first seems more Ti.
Hmm I think fields are kind of like the flip side of objects. Energy as opposed to matter, waves vs particles. A person wouldn't exist as an entity onto themselves from a Ti perspective, they would literally only be their associations with others (which is a subjective thing ultimately, hence the subjective aspect of fields). Te takes objects as existing independently of any associations. It looks at a plate and sees a plate. A Ti user looks at a plate and sees "dinner", or if he isn't hungry as "work" and himself as "worker" because he now has to put the plate away, that kind of thing.
You don't believe there's a real link? That flicking a switch doesn't turn on the light (metaphorically and literally speaking)? Please elaborate.I think Te is merely the perception of the explicit dynamics of objects
Again, I'm curious, what do you mean by this?likewise, I think Ti is merely the perception of the statics of fields, although I think such information is implicit rather than explicit
These terms feel robotic to me and I don't even know what they really mean.Te- external dynamics of objects
Ti- external statics of fields
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I think that is more of a "static vs dynamic" kind of thing:
- Statics view reality as sets of episodes, scenes, pictures. The consciousness of a Static type is oriented towards perceiving these separate, individual states, and not a continuous flows of changes
- For Dynamic types, events are viewed as a continuous sequence, which is not fragmented into separate episodes. The consciousness of a Dynamic type is oriented towards perceiving continuous flows of changes as opposed to discrete states.
well, you said:
about Te, andIt tries to make the movements more efficient.
about Ti, but if we're talking about the "bare functions", I don't think they have "agendas" like that; I think they merely perceive and process (or "pick up" and "make sense of") the informationIt tries to clarify these relationships.
I agree with that, I was thinking more about how they might be used intentionally, say by an ILE. An ILE may well distort the relationships if it suited their base. On their own the functions probably don't have an orientation.
Well, you told me.
If this internal/external field statics stuff was explained visually with like GIFs and stuff it would be much easier for a lot of people to understand and relate too.
I agree, Te is more blunt and flippant, though you could argue that isn't always a good thing.
My entp friends tend to be indirect as hell and it drives me crazy, then again I find entjs lacking tact or something. argh you just can't win, I hate everybody die die die.
The artwork on the Thoth tarot's Six of Swords always seemed like a good visual representation of Ti due to that sense of balance, connection, and order:
For ages, I've pushed this towards a notion of Alpha Ti for no specific reason I could say, but a -/Result approach to Ti, and a Democratic one, at that, should result in something more omnidirectional and organic, free of the physically-imposed laws of a +/Process Ti.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
That's very good, I think I like these descriptions better. "endogenous vs exogenous" to subject for the object/field distinction is particularly useful.
I believe "empirical knowledge" is Se, facts that are simply observed. Measuring these facts and constructing something out of these measurements may be a feature of Te. More generally, I believe Te people have a tendecy to use what's out there and measurable as a yardstick for the reasonableness of an idea, whereas Ti types will be more likely to go back to their personal understanding of the situation.
Remember that each function is colored by its auxiliary, so when discussing with an ENTj or ESTj you might just hear their creative function "speaking". In fact, I myself like much more any produce of my Ni (or what I interpret as such) compared to any produce of my Te, which I find somewhat banal.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Perhaps Ti vs Te is like the scientific difference between qualitative and quantitative data:
(http://www.regentsprep.org/regents/m.../qualquant.htm)
Qualitative Data Quantitative Data Overview:
- Deals with descriptions.
- Data can be observed but not measured.
- Colors, textures, smells, tastes, appearance, beauty, etc.
- Qualitative → Quality
Overview:
- Deals with numbers.
- Data which can be measured.
- Length, height, area, volume, weight, speed, time, temperature, humidity, sound levels, cost, members, ages, etc.
- Quantitative → Quantity
Example 1: Oil Painting
Example 1: Oil Painting
Example 2: Latte
Example 2: Latte
Example 3: Freshman Class
Example 3: Freshman Class
Qualitative data seems to be perceptive in nature to me.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
The main difference between Te and Ti is the individual's focus on applicability.
Reading this thread there are both great examples of logical constructions that surely would have no use if you were trying to apply them to your observations of others, and simultaneously there are people who are simply trying to explain their perceptions based on observed behaviors over time.
These are different explanatory approaches.
Easy Day
Te is robots and sheep, i mainly use it to make fun of robots and sheep. It follows a progression everyone can see but feels very limited in connections with other entities. Ti is personal and constantly fact checked by me and ties into my Ne as webs. Maybe Ti is more applicable based, while Te is more theoretical.
Te: A-b-c-d-e-f-g... everyone knows this is the order for modern english, it has been peer reviewed and passed scrutiny.
Ti: That is a song, its the same as the one about stars and the one about sheep, my childhood and most popular music is a charade...
Ti is splitting hairs. Te combs the hair over a bald spot.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I see. Thanks for pointing that out, looks like I need to word things a little more carefully.
@mfckr, I patched this together from a couple of posts by ClownsandEntropy; I think it describes Ti/Fe quite well, but I'd like to see what you have to say about it:
No not really
Ni would be observation of event and it's possible evolutional event. For example
First event: People not behaving
Second event: People are being cruel
Third event: People not changing
Final event: People will face their downfall as a result of all the other events.
It's much more linear even if it's a perceptual function. It perceives the events in dynamic way inside the person's mind.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-16-2014 at 04:18 AM.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
"I (object) was watching the american culinary institue make armenian food. This white guy (object) making armenian food made me laugh. But you know what he did differently, he put so much garlic on his food. I remember you said you don't put a lot of garlic in your food." LSE
Observe the process. Te
Explicit dynamic of object is
Stating what one observes doing. Hence, I've given you an example of LSE expressing the activity of an object (person). Again type is typical attitude. It just so happens this LSE is extremely loaded with Te.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-16-2014 at 04:41 AM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I totally agree about Ni being a linear function
Ne= radial
Ni=linear
probably the sensing counterparts are the same way:
Se=radial
Si= linear
how so?
hmm no I don't mean it like that, it's more a contrast to the word radial. Ni would take a path (continuous) through time, Ne/Se would take the entirety instead of one path, and only at a particular moment in time. does that make sense?
YES.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Maritsa, people do not get punished for being cruel much in the real world. If they were, they'd stop doing it. Sadly, the only true balance against cruelty is a person's own personal guilt about what they're doing - and how willing other people are to fight you on it. (which gets petty after awhile for most ppl. And becomes this tug-of-war that never ends.)
I don't mean to be too critical, I think your post naturally picked up on something Ni-ego infps do very, very well. But the example didn't feel totally accurate.
I think the example was more from the standpoint of INTp with the slant towards Te. I see Ni expressed towards different things with regards to Fe but what I was trying to express was the same kind of logic that with Ni basis there's this tendency to think along a path as ConcreteButterfly describes. Once they hold of a subject, there's this internal reflection, like watching a movie about events they reflect on to reach the inevitable conclusion. If I were to be verbally expressive about those events I would say something like this, "I watched people struggle endlessly towards a change with regards to corporate leaders, however I see that no matter what points are brought up, the CEOs vote as they desire [again this is ILI]; so, I don't feel the need to reiterate to them what I've seen or read all along, but I will just say that no matter what we say to them, they will decide as they wish. That is my conclusion in the observation of this path along this topic as I've observed throughout time, be that may for months or year." This is what ILI would say if they were talking out loud about what goes on in their minds, however, they don't talk to people about this process. They only state the conclusion, "I stand before you to say that no matter what we say before you, you'll vote as you desire [this is the prophecy] but you will hurt people financially if you decide to raise rates."
At the point that Ni type expresses their prophecy, the voting by the CEOs has not yet taken place. The actual time that the prophecy is made or expressed is at the time of a hearing.
Now take someone like LSE in this case. Being energy conservers (Si valuing) with regards to having hold of objective knowledge (Te), an LSE would not bother going to a hearing where their sentiments of prophetic vision would be expressed. They would stay at home and tell people "These people have ultimate power and authority over making any decision they want because they were given that power by Congress so they will vote and raise the rates and there's nothing people can say at the hearing that can dissuade them. These hearings are a waste of time. You're better off staying home or going out to lunch with your friends." Te works in them like this "I know the law and I know what these people can do, so I know that people don't be able to impact their decision because that's how that system was set up; knowing this fact, I will decide to act or take action in other things in my life." Therefore LSE know what to do in the world. Because they have good hold of how things work already.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-16-2014 at 12:03 PM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Te is "a system"
Ti is the relation between systems.
Unfortunately, I believe that the majority of people don't sense impending doom while they still have the means to thwart it. They just aren't sensitive to what transpires before falling or crashing down for whatever reason until they lose the ability to manage a situation and thus hopefully become wiser from it after it's all said and done.
As IEI, I see this type of progression in the lives of people around me quite often, but I rarely know what will push them into each step of the process until their actions or inaction are known. As much as we would all like to, in order to simplify things, we can't simply tap into the other person's cognition prior to their action. Therefore, I don't know if a person will falter or not until they dictate their situation or their situation dictates them, which is why professional profilers are only as good as the tools that they use to profile people. In other words, it's much easier to read into a person's intentions whenever their actions are known, but it's not so easy whenever their actions are not known or they're yet to be determined. Third function personality type designation and its associated hidden agenda are about the best tools available right now to make use of Ni's ability to predict a person's general progression towards a goal and understand their intentions that may not be outwardly evident - "What exactly is making them do that?!" Hidden agenda gives us those answers that we desperately seek!
I need information to process in the first place to create a continuum, because I don't just assume that someone will track historically in a similar way as other people who were in their same position previously have tracked. Also, I don't ascribe to the whole notion of "that's what people do", like an SEE that I used to work with. In fact, I used to be guilty of assuming that a person might be much more dynamic than what they appeared to be until I could eventually find out otherwise. Now that I'm at this point in my life and with the help of Socionics theory, though, I can utilize information much more effectively so that it takes fewer and fewer additional pieces of information in order to create a continuum that's needed to figure out what's going on with a person like a game of connect the dots wherein the fewest points possible is the least wasteful.
Te/Fi dominant types are more apt to tracking people historically, though, so they're probably better at doing this for generalized purposes. They will assume what I don't necessarily take interest in assuming. For example and in addition to the SEE quote above, in the past, my boyfriend's EII mother would tell me stuff like, "whenever you're pregnant, this or that" or "you'll know this whenever you're pregnant", etc., because I don't think she can account for the possibility that I may never be what the world assumes that I will become - a mother. It's like it's inconceivable to her that I won't follow in her footsteps and in the footsteps of other women. Plain and simple, it just doesn't occur to her that I don't have introverted feelings like her and that I don't have a need to be a mother and to care for and "to love" children in the same way that she does. Anything that I would want, I would want for them, not me.
I live daily without very many expectations, and I only assume that things which were stable previously will be stable today and vice versa. I have to notice a meaningful change in order to determine if something is gaining or losing stability and then I can decipher that change and figure out what it means overall Wheel of Fortune style. Stability and instability in situations usually build on themselves, because the majority of people lack the wherewithal to sense impending doom and compensate by creating more structure or chaos in order to survive. What I'm able to determine is nothing magical; it's just intuitive.
Yes, that makes sense, and I believe that Fe works in a similar way like you've described for Ne/Se. Fe is specific to each instance of determination at a particular moment in time, but it's just not very resilient to massive fluctuations of input like Ne/Se. Fe can be quite forgiving, though, due to its nature of being discerning at a particular moment in time without requiring a high level of variability, because Fe doesn't require fluctuations for fulfillment; Fe is fluctuation in and of itself.
For example, my EIE aunt doesn't hold grudges even after she's been hurt, which is quite funny whenever my LII mother confesses that she's still mad at my aunt. My aunt just keeps on moving like nothing's happened once peace has been restored for a long enough period of time. It's like everything is just business as usual for her once she's ready to try at it all over again.
As for myself, I stop right then and there after being hurt, and my ability to roll with the punches and take heat becomes total and relentless obstinance. For example, whenever my SLI uncle hurt me, I attacked him back and then completely stopped talking to him. I haven't talked to him in almost 2 years!
No, everyone can tell a story like that, we´re all humans!
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
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