Lord of the Rings

[DirectorAbbie]

I know there's already been a thread on this, but I wanted to make a new one anyway. I had a conversation with Aiss, watched the movies, and am reading the books for the fourth time.

Bilbo: SEI-Si (There seems to be no dispute.)
Aragorn: EIE (There seems to be no dispute.)
Arwen: LSI (There's no evidence against it, and she might as well be Aragorn's dual.)
Pippin: SEI-Fe (Alpha irrational, not very logical.)
Merry: ILE (Probably alpha, gets along great with Pippin but seems a little more logical.)
Eowyn: ESTx (Obviously an aristocratic, determined type. I would call her an SLE since they like to fight, but I identify with her. Brilliand said since they're characters she could have an "x".)
Faramir: INFx (I always liked Faramir. He's a softspoken ethical type. He dualizes with Eowyn in the houses of healing.)
Boromir: ESTx (Brilliand typed him as ESTx to be Faramir's dual since the brothers got along well. I would have typed him as SLE since I never liked him, but I have yet to meet anyone who did like him.)
Sam: ESE-Si (Definitely a caregiver type, very likely ethical. Ej seems more likely than Ip because of his determination.)
Frodo: IEI (Frodo and Sam have an obvious victim-caregiver supervisory relationship.)

Gandalf was typed LII-Ne in the last thread, but Aiss thinks he's Gamma. Any thoughts on this?

Gimli and Legolas are hard to type. Brilliand said elves are stereotypically Delta and dwarves are stereotypically Gamma. I thought a beneficiary relationship would make sense. Any thoughts on this?

I haven't tried typing Denethor, Elrond, Eomer, Saruman, Theoden, Wormtongue, Treebeard, or the Mordorians.

[Blaze]

I know there's already been a thread on this, but I wanted to make a new one anyway. I had a conversation with Aiss, watched the movies, and am reading the books for the fourth time.

Bilbo: SEI-Si (There seems to be no dispute.)
Aragorn: EIE (There seems to be no dispute.)
Arwen: LSI (There's no evidence against it, and she might as well be Aragorn's dual.)
Pippin: SEI-Fe (Alpha irrational, not very logical.)
Merry: ILE (Probably alpha, gets along great with Pippin but seems a little more logical.)
Eowyn: ESTx (Obviously an aristocratic, determined type. I would call her an SLE since they like to fight, but I identify with her. Brilliand said since they're characters she could have an "x".)
Faramir: INFx (I always liked Faramir. He's a softspoken ethical type. He dualizes with Eowyn in the houses of healing.)
Boromir: ESTx (Brilliand typed him as ESTx to be Faramir's dual since the brothers got along well. I would have typed him as SLE since I never liked him, but I have yet to meet anyone who did like him.)
Sam: ESE-Si (Definitely a caregiver type, very likely ethical. Ej seems more likely than Ip because of his determination.)
Frodo: IEI (Frodo and Sam have an obvious victim-caregiver supervisory relationship.)

Gandalf was typed LII-Ne in the last thread, but Aiss thinks he's Gamma. Any thoughts on this?

Gimli and Legolas are hard to type. Brilliand said elves are stereotypically Delta and dwarves are stereotypically Gamma. I thought a beneficiary relationship would make sense. Any thoughts on this?

I haven't tried typing Denethor, Elrond, Eomer, Saruman, Theoden, Wormtongue, Treebeard, or the Mordorians.

really? interesting. what is the reasoning behind this.

[Brilliand]

really? interesting. what is the reasoning behind this.

IIRC, someone else on this forum made the statement about elves and Abbie made the statement about dwarves, and I was not averse to either one.

I favor LII for Gandalf, and I keep wanting to type the elves as Merry because they're green and I associate that color with , but I do think that the conservatism and massive lifespans of the elves tends more toward Delta. The dwarves seem most strongly associated with industry (diligence), which is mainly a Gamma theme. While the hobbit community is described as Delta, all of the individual hobbits in LoTR seem Merry - but they are also considered strange by hobbit standards. I think that it makes sense to consider them Alphas arising from a basically Delta society (in keeping with the cycle of quadras).

[stanprollyright]

And Men are Beta?

[Cyrano]

I know there's already been a thread on this, but I wanted to make a new one anyway. I had a conversation with Aiss, watched the movies, and am reading the books for the fourth time.

Bilbo: SEI-Si (There seems to be no dispute.)
Aragorn: EIE (There seems to be no dispute.)
Arwen: LSI (There's no evidence against it, and she might as well be Aragorn's dual.)
Pippin: SEI-Fe (Alpha irrational, not very logical.)
Merry: ILE (Probably alpha, gets along great with Pippin but seems a little more logical.)
Eowyn: ESTx (Obviously an aristocratic, determined type. I would call her an SLE since they like to fight, but I identify with her. Brilliand said since they're characters she could have an "x".)
Faramir: INFx (I always liked Faramir. He's a softspoken ethical type. He dualizes with Eowyn in the houses of healing.)
Boromir: ESTx (Brilliand typed him as ESTx to be Faramir's dual since the brothers got along well. I would have typed him as SLE since I never liked him, but I have yet to meet anyone who did like him.)
Sam: ESE-Si (Definitely a caregiver type, very likely ethical. Ej seems more likely than Ip because of his determination.)
Frodo: IEI (Frodo and Sam have an obvious victim-caregiver supervisory relationship.)

Gandalf was typed LII-Ne in the last thread, but Aiss thinks he's Gamma. Any thoughts on this?

Gimli and Legolas are hard to type. Brilliand said elves are stereotypically Delta and dwarves are stereotypically Gamma. I thought a beneficiary relationship would make sense. Any thoughts on this?

I haven't tried typing Denethor, Elrond, Eomer, Saruman, Theoden, Wormtongue, Treebeard, or the Mordorians.

No SLI on the cast? Gollum perhaps?

[Suz]

No SLI on the cast? Gollum perhaps?

LOL no way! he's like the roller coaster of emotions!

[DirectorAbbie]

LOL no way! he's like the roller coaster of emotions!

Lol; yup. If you want an SLI, Eomer seems plausible.

Gollum has a split personality; he gets two types.

[Pa3s]

Gollum has a split personality; he gets two types.

Gollum: ENTj
Smeagol: ISFp
two conflicting personalities in one body, maybe...

[Aleksei]

Frodo: ESI
Bilbo: SLE
Sam: EII
Merry: ESE
Pippin: ESE
Aragorn: ESI
Gimli: SEE
Boromir: SLE
Faramir: EII
Theoden: LIE
Eowyn: EII
Grima: creepy-ass IEI
Arwen: EII
Elrond: LIE
Galadriel: SEE
Haldir: SLI
Melkor: SLE
Treebeard: Badass SEI
Smeagol: SEI
Gollum: Smeagol's crazy-ass ESI extinguishment.

[DirectorAbbie]

Frodo: ESI
Bilbo: SLE
Sam: EII
Merry: ESE
Pippin: ESE
Aragorn: ESI
Gimli: SEE
Boromir: SLE
Faramir: EII
Theoden: LIE
Eowyn: EII
Grima: creepy-ass IEI
Arwen: EII
Elrond: LIE
Galadriel: SEE
Haldir: SLI
Melkor: SLE
Treebeard: Badass SEI
Smeagol: SEI
Gollum: Smeagol's crazy-ass ESI extinguishment.

Frodo can be ESI. I'm still not sure about his type.
Bilbo is definitely not an SLE.
Sam is definitely a caregiver, so I don't think he could be EII.
Merry and pippin are too irrational to be ESEs, and Merry isn't as goofy as Pippin.
Why do you think Aragorn is ESI?
Boromir and Faramir got along well; we'd better not type them as conflictors.
There's no way Eowyn is EII. She's very willful.
Why do you think Arwen is EII?
Why do you think Galadriel is SEE?

[DirectorAbbie]

Gandalf.

No; he's an intuitive.

[717495]

I'm pretty sure Gandalf is EII.

[DirectorAbbie]

I'm pretty sure Gandalf is EII.

Why EII and not LII?

[717495]

He doesn't seem Fe/Ti valuing in that I don't really see him that open to others in the Fe sense of reaching out and making invitation, nor does he remind me of a Ti dominant, who would seem ethically distant with others. Definitely more relational valuing to me, and seems very personal, in touch with his feelings and others', an NF guardian figure--looks out for people, more kind and ethically mannered, not the LII kind of polite which tends to be more distanced and mechanical (not that they are, but their Fi-related ethics are). IJ-Fi. Pretty much reminds me of how Fi-EIIs come across in their thoughtful and busy role, and I think Frodo is Delta too.

[DirectorAbbie]

He doesn't seem Fe/Ti valuing, more relational valuing to me, and seems very personal, in touch with his feelings and others', an NF guardian figure--looks out for people, more kind and ethically mannered, not the LII kind of polite which tends to be more cold, distanced and mechanical (not that they are, but their Fi-related ethics are). IJ-Fi. Pretty much reminds me of how Fi-EIIs come across in their thoughtful and more distant/busy role, and I think Frodo is Delta too.

So you think Gandalf is EII-Ne? I can't see him as EII-Fi.

Why do you think Frodo is Delta? I thought he might be Sam's supervisor. The suggestion of ESI is plausible, though.

[717495]

So you think Gandalf is EII-Ne? I can't see him as EII-Fi.

Maybe, but why can't you see him as Fi subtype?

Why do you think Frodo is Delta?

Serious-Judicious Delta sticks out obviously to me. Just doesn't remind me of any other quadra--Gammas wouldn't be so soft. ESIs are emotionally stoic, but still rather hard and brazen on the outside. His mindset fits in the best with Gandalf.

I thought he might be Sam's supervisor. The suggestion of ESI is plausible, though.

He and Sam aren't extinguishment/contrary relations.

[DirectorAbbie]

Maybe, but why can't you see him as Fi subtype?

I picture him in a group with the EII-Fis I know and he sticks out like a sore thumb. I picture him with the EII-Nes I know and he fits in.

Serious-Judicious Delta sticks out obviously to me. Just doesn't remind me of any other quadra--Gammas wouldn't be so soft. His mindset fits in the best with Gandalf.

Frodo is certainly not an LSE...or an SLI. From the movie I figured him for a victim, but that's probably because the actor has Ni eyes. In the book he doesn't have much of a personality.

He and Sam aren't extinguishment/contrary relations.

Right. I meant it made sense personality-wise, not relationship-wise. If Frodo were ESI, Sam would have to be something else.

[717495]

I picture him in a group with the EII-Fis I know and he sticks out like a sore thumb. I picture him with the EII-Nes I know and he fits in.

Maybe? You might be wrong, but then I guess Ne-subtype could work, not that I think he's any more LII.

Frodo is certainly not an LSE...or an SLI. From the movie I figured him for a victim, but that's probably because the actor has Ni eyes. In the book he doesn't have much of a personality.

Uhm, Elijah Wood has clearly Si > Ni eyes in my opinion. As far as Frodo's type I would definitely think some Delta, undecided as to which.

[DirectorAbbie]

As far as Frodo's type I would say probably some Delta, undecided as to which.

He's too emotional to be SLI. He's not controlling enough to be LSE. He's not loud enough to be IEE. That leaves EII if he's Delta.

[Aleksei]

Gandalf- IEI

Bilbo is definitely not an SLE.

I presume you haven't read The Hobbit? His story there is essentially as follows: SLE grows up in Alpha SF environment. SLE gets bored. SLE decides "I'm going to go out and steal dragon treasure!" Then SLE goes out and steals dragon treasure, leading an army of dwarves.

Bilbo Baggins should become the new exemplar of SLE.

Merry and pippin are too irrational to be ESEs, and Merry isn't as goofy as Pippin.

My first thought about Merry and Pippin was actually SEI, but they're certainly Alpha in any case (the Shire seems like a very Alpha SF community in general). A friend of mine typed them ESE and I kind of went along with it.

Why do you think Aragorn is ESI?

Quiet, serious and directive, but very soft-hearted underneath the gruff exterior. If you've ever seen Burn Notice, his demeanor is almost the exact same as Michael Westen, who has almost the exact same type profile (ESI-Se, 3w2 sx/sp, ISTP; Aragorn I believe is a 3w4 sx/so and an ISTP in MBTI).

Boromir and Faramir got along well; we'd better not type them as conflictors.

The options then are SLE for Boromir and IEI for Faramir, or LSE for Boromir and EII for Faramir -- both of which are plausible, in my opinion.

There's no way Eowyn is EII. She's very willful.

That's true. I also agree with you that she's Aristocratic and willful, but I don't think she's a Gamma NT. She's neither logical enough, nor enough of a long-range thinker. A base would have realized it was more practical to stay behind and lead the kingdom in the absence of Theoden, rather than go running off after him and leave... I dunno, some patsy in charge of the kingdom or something (I don't know what the hell she did, and I suspect neither does she ).

I actually think she's an ESI-Fi, I must have mistyped last night.

Why do you think Galadriel is SEE?

That whole "GARGH I WANT POWERRRRR" rant to Frodo reeks of Se.

[DirectorAbbie]

I presume you haven't read The Hobbit? His story there is essentially as follows: SLE grows up in Alpha SF environment. SLE gets bored. SLE decides "I'm going to go out and steal dragon treasure!" Then SLE goes out and steals dragon treasure, leading an army of dwarves.

Bilbo Baggins should become the new exemplar of SLE.

I've read "The Hobbit" three times. I know that I'm typing about. Bilbo Baggins is in no was SLE. You are wrong on many levels. The Shire is Delta, not Alpha. It's SEI grows up in boring Delta environment and gets fanagled into going on an adventure, which he doesn't really mind as much as he expected he would. His comments during the book are clearly , and in no way does he present . Bilbo reluctantly steals a single piece of treasure because that's what he's expected to do. He never leads an army of dwarves. In fact, at the Battle of Five Armies he pretty clearly says he doesn't want to fight and is considered a coward. He gives a beautiful and valuable stone to the enemy to try to prevent the fighting. An SLE would certainly never do that.

My first thought about Merry and Pippin was actually SEI, but they're certainly Alpha in any case (the Shire seems like a very Alpha SF community in general). A friend of mine typed them ESE and I kind of went along with it.

Again, The Shire is not an Alpha SF community. It's a Delta community with an emphasis on Si. An Alpha community would be more prone to change, whereas The Shire discourages any unusual behavior. Merry and Pippin being Alpha means they are more prone to adventure than the stereotypical hobbit, such as Fatty Bolger. I also believe they are irrational Alpha duals, since they get along so well.

Quiet, serious and directive, but very soft-hearted underneath the gruff exterior. If you've ever seen Burn Notice, his demeanor is almost the exact same as Michael Westen, who has almost the exact same type profile (ESI-Se, 3w2 sx/sp, ISTP; Aragorn I believe is a 3w4 sx/so and an ISTP in MBTI).

I've never heard of that. I suppose ESI is plausible for Aragorn. What do you have against EIE?

The options then are SLE for Boromir and IEI for Faramir, or LSE for Boromir and EII for Faramir -- both of which are plausible, in my opinion.

Precisely.

That's true. I also agree with you that she's Aristocratic and willful, but I don't think she's a Gamma NT. She's neither logical enough, nor enough of a long-range thinker. A base would have realized it was more practical to stay behind and lead the kingdom in the absence of Theoden, rather than go running off after him and leave... I dunno, some patsy in charge of the kingdom or something (I don't know what the hell she did, and I suspect neither does she ).

I actually think she's an ESI-Fi, I must have mistyped last night.

What is there to prevent Eowyn from being Faramir's dual?

That whole "GAHHH I WANT POWERRRRR" rant to Frodo reeks of Se.

Heh. Okay, if you say so. I don't have much of an opinion on her...second thought, I think she's rational.

[717495]

He's not loud enough to be IEE.

Betas are louder. IEEs can be quiet ones, really any type can. Frodo I would lean Delta NF > Delta ST.

[DirectorAbbie]

Gandalf- IEI

Certainly not.

[Aleksei]

Certainly not.

Certainly so. He was very fun-loving and rather cheeky. From the Fellowship, you might have remembered him laughing like a maniac as he caught the fireworks. He was also, above all, very interested (almost to the point of obsession) in discovering the hidden meaning behind everything (Ni Base). From The Hobbit, we have this little gem:

"Good Morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the brim of his shady hat. "What do you mean?" he said. "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?" (later) "What a lot of things you use Good morning for!" said Gandalf. "Now you mean that you want to get rid of me, and that it won't be good till I move off."

That, and he refused to take the ring, for fear that it might corrupt him; which suggests Se-valuation.

[DirectorAbbie]

That sort of quote is what I would expect from an LII-Ne. I live with one.

[717495]

That quote doesn't quite fit the Gandalf in the movie. I think he's more serious and direct in an Fi way, but contemplative and questioning in an Ne way. Doesn't beat around the bush with logical possibilities, but steers straight with ethical possibilities like EIIs do.

[krieger]

Gandalf always worries too much. There's no way he's a Merry type. I call him INTp.

Elves too, are very conservative creatures, very afraid of change. They're the antithesis of Merry (the progressive, change oriented quadras).

I agree that the Shire is Delta (comfort + conservatism), and I think Bilbo is ISFp.

[DirectorAbbie]

That quote doesn't quite fit the Gandalf in the movie. I think he's more serious and direct in an Fi way, but contemplative and questioning in an Ne way. Doesn't beat around the bush with logical possibilities, but stears straight with ethical possibilities.

So EII in the movies and LII in the books.

Gandalf always worries too much. There's no way he's a Merry type. I call him INTp.

ILI? That's an interesting perspective. Why can't a merry type worry?

[krieger]

ILI? That's an interesting perspective. Why can't a merry type worry?

Just something based on personal experience. I don't think I ever feel acutely worried about anything. There always positive perspectives on the situation. Difficulty is challenging, danger is exciting, shortage invites inventiveness, etc. I've come to see it as the Merry mentality.

For a better example of a Ti type, look at Saruman. His inability to accept the situation in all it's seriousness causes him to invite evil into his court. If he had been a little more "worried", he wouldn't have made that mistake.

[DirectorAbbie]

For a better example of a Ti type, look at Saruman. His inability to accept the situation in all it's seriousness causes him to invite evil into his court. If he had been a little more "worried", he wouldn't have made that mistake.

So what do you type Saruman as?

[Aiss]

Gandalf always worries too much. There's no way he's a Merry type. I call him INTp.

So do I, though not really because of worrying. The way he works out things, as well as when he chooses to act, seems more in line with Ni and Ip temperament.

[Suz]

He's too emotional to be SLI. He's not controlling enough to be LSE. He's not loud enough to be IEE. That leaves EII if he's Delta.

u calling me loud?? U CALLING ME LOUD?????!!!!!!!!!

[Aleksei]

Again, The Shire is not an Alpha SF community. It's a Delta community with an emphasis on Si. An Alpha community would be more prone to change, whereas The Shire discourages any unusual behavior.

If the Shire were Delta, it'd be Si blocked with Te -- SLI; which is implausible at very best, as there is no Te displayed in the Shire, ever (that I remember seeing -- maybe you can shed some light on that). There is however plenty of Fe on the Shire. Those bright parties full of dancing and merriment... The shire, overall, seems Merry rather than Serious. It prefers a merry atmosphere, as opposed to a serious one. Hobbits are all about having fun, dancing, drinking, laughter. Which of course fits the fact that they're based on a traditional English village, with England's pub culture and all.

I've never heard of that. I suppose ESI is plausible for Aragorn. What do you have against EIE?

I see no Fe from Aragorn, at all, ever. As I mentioned, he's a kind man, but very serious -- no overt attempts from him to loosen the atmosphere or raise people's spirits.

What is there to prevent Eowyn from being Faramir's dual?

It's quite simple, really: Eowyn is not a Logical type, and neither is Faramir. Besides, not too much is said about their relationship, and kindred, mirror and identical pairs can be quite successful, so there's no reason to assume they are duals. My money is on Faramir being Eowyn's EII kindred (which additionally makes sense as Faramir is Tolkien's self-insertion character), and Boromir being LSE.

[munenori2]

This is one of those rare moments where I agree with everything abbie says.

[Aleksei]

Care to show me how the Shire is Serious then?

[Suz]

This is one of those rare moments where I agree with everything abbie says.

Except IEEs being loud, of course...

[munenori2]

You're talking my ear off, woman!

[munenori2]

Care to show me how the Shire is Serious then?

In Delta Paradise all Deltas are happy, thus pointless celebration results.

[Aleksei]

Where's the Te?

[munenori2]

prescribed focus on lameness labeled as [...]