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Thread: Occupation: Camp Director

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    Default Occupation: Camp Director

    A perfectionist when it comes to organizing and especially cleaning. He appreciates and demands high quality. Having worked for him for a number of years, I am now quite certain that if I reach even half his standard when working for others, they'll be pleasantly surprised with the quality of what I do, especially when it comes to cleaning. He's got an eye for picking out details, so there's absolutely no getting around doing a thorough job.

    A good memory for facts.

    Likes football (American), both watching and playing.

    Loves having a staff to organize and interact with. Knows how to delegate and is good at getting people to work hard for him. Likes to be in relative control of the situation, and know what's going on with whatever's under his care/authority. Despite his perfectionism, he doesn't micromanage too badly. Lets people do their jobs.

    Is gregarious, loud, and often, um, forceful. If it wasn't against his ethics he might be prone to coarse joking. Can be quite serious, though, and is good at solving problems of a practical nature. He knows the machinery on the grounds and can fix a good portion of it when it's not working right. When it comes to working out people problems, he's pretty pragmatic. Sometimes I think he's insensitive.

    Liked to do pranks when younger, though nothing really damaging. His best friends are also loud, active people, usually just as or even more rambunctious than him.

    Can negotiate like nobody's business. Is great at talking upset customers into satisfaction and restored happiness. Has a habit for acquiring equipment for as much as half the posted price.

    Likes keeping up on the news, and is moderately interested in politics (more so than the average person, but not totally immersed). He's intelligent and can carry a well-educated conversation, though I suppose that isn't really type-related.



    More later... In the meantime, tell me what type it sounds like so far.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    SEE?

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    Yeah, I think so too, so far.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    estp fo sho

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Ah yes, ESTp is even better than ESFp, I agree.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Why not ESTj?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    After the first two responses, I was going to say - My supervisor? Hmm, I can see the , or at least well-defined extroversion, but where's the ?

    Okay, some more, with the addition of some of my own interactions with and responses to him:

    Is a great dad to his kids. I approve his parenting style for the most part. He's firm with discipline and it's very rare to see them actively do what he's told them not to do. In fact, I can't remember a single instance. He seems good at explaining the reasons behind rules. He can stop them in their tracks with a whistle (a special signal to get their attention – if it's a whistle, the staff knows it's not for them lol), a frown, and a shake of the head. He's gentle and affectionate, though, and the younger ones will climb on him and request to be held. They respect but don't fear him. In fact, they adore him.

    Let's see... physical demeanor? – he's a large person anyway, so it matches his large personality. Heavy, confident tread. Intense gaze. Eh, I'm not too good at this part...

    Has been likened to a bulldozer.

    He stimulates his surroundings. If a group is too quiet for his taste (which happens often) he'll liven it up, get some movement and conversation going, usually by talking loudly and moving around himself.

    I've never seen him really lose his temper, though his displeasure is like a thundercloud. He growls and scowls and starts tinkering and issuing orders on how to rectify the situation.

    Devoted to his wife, but it's not uncommon to see him surrounded by and joking with a group of girls. He likes the attention, though I've never seen him get carried away and his wife never seems jealous. Actually, he just plain likes the attention of his staff, with a circle of them around him, laughing and focusing on him.

    Takes care of the people working under him. Treats them well in terms of general health and happiness. Has high standards, though, in who he'll hire. Relative to the rest of the industry, the application process to get in is arduous. Partly as a result of his standards and attitudes toward his job and his subordinates, the working environment is the best I've ever been a part of (though I think a few other factors are involved, too).

    It's very rare to see him not be the dominant figure in a group, though I've seen him get put in his place a couple of times. He can get self-conscious sometimes when it comes to interpersonal/group type stuff. Hm... I'm not sure how to describe it. It usually has to do with people he respects and him not pleasing them. (In a way, it's kind of cute, because he'll get red-faced and shuffle his feet, though I feel bad when he's not confident. Most other people don't seem to notice it, though.) It seems he gets more uncomfortable when he has to talk to a large group of people who aren't kids (i.e. the campers) or his staff.

    I've always been intimidated by him, usually more than less. It's taken me years to not start shaking when talking directly with him, and even now I still tense up. Familiarity has granted courage, though, and I'm more frequently facing him head on and bantering with him. It may be interesting to note that my ESFj friend has never been afraid of him and has always considered him "a great big teddy bear." She says, "Just look at how he treats his kids," which is, I suppose, a very good point.

    Despite my nervousness, I feel safe with him around because I know he'll make sure everything works out. When things get stalled or uncertain, he makes it all right. When he arrives on a scene, I often get a feeling of relief, "Ah, he's here and now things will get going – in the right direction." I find it easy to trust him.

    Takes my requests and complaints seriously (mainly, I think, because I don't offer too many). However, he teases me about being too quiet, and has a couple of times pushed me nearly to tears when wanting me to be louder and/or more forceful. He's straightforward to me about my faults, though he's made it fairly clear he likes having me around. He pushes me to better myself.

    I've learned a lot from him and he's been instrumental in me becoming the person I am today, especially with regard to my faith. Plus I'm going to be working with him again. So it would be interesting to know his type.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    ESTp is confirmed --
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    How so?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He stimulates his surroundings. If a group is too quiet for his taste (which happens often) he'll liven it up, get some movement and conversation going, usually by talking loudly and moving around himself.
    That's typical Fe behavior when in a group, Fe extrovert more specifically. It practically eliminates ESTj from being considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Devoted to his wife, but it's not uncommon to see him surrounded by and joking with a group of girls. He likes the attention, though I've never seen him get carried away and his wife never seems jealous. Actually, he just plain likes the attention of his staff, with a circle of them around him, laughing and focusing on him.
    Same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    It's very rare to see him not be the dominant figure in a group, though I've seen him get put in his place a couple of times.
    That suggests very strong Se, obviously, and Se extroverts in particular. So far, ESTp or ESFp.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He can get self-conscious sometimes when it comes to interpersonal/group type stuff. Hm... I'm not sure how to describe it. It usually has to do with people he respects and him not pleasing them. (In a way, it's kind of cute, because he'll get red-faced and shuffle his feet, though I feel bad when he's not confident. Most other people don't seem to notice it, though.)
    Fi PoLR hits, or Fe hidden agenda not being fulfilled -- it's also typical ESTp behavior. You notice because of your strong Fi.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    It seems he gets more uncomfortable when he has to talk to a large group of people who aren't kids (i.e. the campers) or his staff.
    That's a bit odd - I thought you said he dominated every group? Yet he's uncomfortable when talking to a large group of people? Or he dominates only smaller groups?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I've always been intimidated by him, usually more than less. It's taken me years to not start shaking when talking directly with him, and even now I still tense up.
    This rules ESTjs out --


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Familiarity has granted courage, though, and I'm more frequently facing him head on and bantering with him. It may be interesting to note that my ESFj friend has never been afraid of him and has always considered him "a great big teddy bear." She says, "Just look at how he treats his kids," which is, I suppose, a very good point.
    Another indication of ESTp rather than ESFp -- the ESFj would be wearier of an ESFp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Despite my nervousness, I feel safe with him around because I know he'll make sure everything works out. When things get stalled or uncertain, he makes it all right. When he arrives on a scene, I often get a feeling of relief, "Ah, he's here and now things will get going – in the right direction." I find it easy to trust him.
    That's because you get some Te or pseudo-Te feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    However, he teases me about being too quiet, and has a couple of times pushed me nearly to tears when wanting me to be louder and/or more forceful.
    That's stereotypical Se EP behavior, but an ESFp would notice better the effect it has on you. It's more ESTp than ESFp behavior anyway. He's acting towards you as if you needed his Se, as if you were an INFp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He's straightforward to me about my faults, though he's made it fairly clear he likes having me around. He pushes me to better myself.
    That's one way of seeing it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    First, thank you for your . I'll keep asking for it as long as you'll let me get away with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    That's a bit odd - I thought you said he dominated every group? Yet he's uncomfortable when talking to a large group of people? Or he dominates only smaller groups?
    Yes, he still does, or rather can be, dominant, just because he's big and has a loud voice. Or, hm, I don't know... I just know that he gets more awkward and nervous when it's say, parents as opposed to kids. Perhaps it does have to do with the size of the group... Though he really does love interacting with his staff, whether it's an informal grouping or an official all-staff meeting (with 70+ people).

    Another interesting thing, one-on-one, like in an interview, he can monologue for what seems like hours. He likes talking a lot in groups, too, but seems more sensitive in terms of accepting/encouraging interaction. It could just be me, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Despite my nervousness, I feel safe with him around because I know he'll make sure everything works out. When things get stalled or uncertain, he makes it all right. When he arrives on a scene, I often get a feeling of relief, "Ah, he's here and now things will get going – in the right direction." I find it easy to trust him.
    That's because you get some Te or pseudo-Te feedback.
    Really? Hmm... So, Te is related to organizing, issuing orders, smoothing out problems, etc.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    He's straightforward to me about my faults, though he's made it fairly clear he likes having me around. He pushes me to better myself.
    That's one way of seeing it.
    What would be another way?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    kinda Pi EJ or Pe EP
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Yes, he still does, or rather can be, dominant, just because he's big and has a loud voice. Or, hm, I don't know... I just know that he gets more awkward and nervous when it's say, parents as opposed to kids. Perhaps it does have to do with the size of the group... Though he really does love interacting with his staff, whether it's an informal grouping or an official all-staff meeting (with 70+ people).
    Well he's obviously less secure about how to handle the parents; that is a very slight indication of ESTp over ESFp but not much I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Another interesting thing, one-on-one, like in an interview, he can monologue for what seems like hours. He likes talking a lot in groups, too, but seems more sensitive in terms of accepting/encouraging interaction. It could just be me, though.
    He's Narrator in a one-to-one interaction, when in a group he goes more for general Fe group behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Really? Hmm... So, Te is related to organizing, issuing orders, smoothing out problems, etc.?
    Te is related to the external reality making sense, things working properly, information being factual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    What would be another way?
    He's trying to get you more Se-focused because that's the way "everyone is, they just need a push" -- but you'll never really satisfy him in that area.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    kinda Pi EJ or Pe EP
    Yeah, I think Ni-ENFj is possible but unlikely.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    kinda Pi EJ or Pe EP
    What makes you say that? What characteristics stand out as belonging to an extroverted temperament with a preference for one of the perceiving functions?

    For what it's worth, someone that we've previously typed here as ENFj, did not get along particularly well with him. If anything, I've helped smooth over differences between them and convince the ENFj to just do her job and not take offense at what she considered unfairness and insensitivity.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    What would be another way?
    He's trying to get you more Se-focused because that's the way "everyone is, they just need a push" -- but you'll never really satisfy him in that area.
    Oh. Yes, I suppose so. He definitely gets a chuckle out of me being "feisty," which is actually more often than not just me stating out loud what I'm thinking. I guess it's often just outside of the norm enough that it's a bit startling, and that's what gives the impression of... feistiness, I guess. That and I can be a bit stubborn in my own way.

    Sometimes he finds it enjoyable to ask me a question when in a group, putting me in the spot and the center of group attention (which I absolutely hate). Or he'll comment on something about me, which has the same effect. I usually react either by getting embarrassed and trying to gently direct the conversation elsewhere or by coming back with a smart comment or two. The first tactic makes me boring, thus deflecting attention. The second seems to be more what he was looking for, and once satisfied goes elsewhere. Anyway, the whole thing most often ends with him saying "Oh, I love you, [my name]! You're so fun to tease" with a guilty, yet gleeful laugh. I'll ruefully say something along the lines of, "Well, I'm glad it makes you happy" whereupon he'll laugh some more.

    Apart from the teasing, though, I think he's learned to trust that I can do my job in my own way. He's confident that I'm grounded in knowledge and he's seen the results of my work. So he doesn't really pressure me to be more forceful or outgoing anymore, at least in that regard.

    My original point, though, was that he does encourage me to become a better person, and not just in terms of Se. He demands good character of his staff, which includes honesty, hard work, respect for one another, forgiveness, helpfulness, encouragement, self-sacrifice, etc. He is encouraging of people to develop and capitalize on their strengths, just as he sees the importance in overcoming weaknesses. He's not a hypocrite, either. He's humble enough to be transparent about his own failures and accept criticism. He also challenges his staff to be strong in their beliefs, sure in their convictions, grounded in faith. He's a good man and I respect him a lot. I don't know if that's type related, but it's true.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Sometimes he finds it enjoyable to ask me a question when in a group, putting me in the spot and the center of group attention (which I absolutely hate). Or he'll comment on something about me, which has the same effect. I usually react either by getting embarrassed and trying to gently direct the conversation elsewhere or by coming back with a smart comment or two. The first tactic makes me boring, thus deflecting attention. The second seems to be more what he was looking for, and once satisfied goes elsewhere.
    That is classic ESTp behavior. He wants to "get things moving", including people, as if he was starting a pinball game. If you get "moving", he likes it; if you don't, it's boring for him. It's not really about you as a person - not when he does that kind of thing.

    In my "soccer field" metaphor in the Gamma Te views thread -- when he teases you in public, you are the "ball" he wants to get moving. That's what it's about.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    kinda Pi EJ or Pe EP
    What makes you say that? What characteristics stand out as belonging to an extroverted temperament with a preference for one of the perceiving functions?
    Ok, do you remember the latests posts in Smilingeyes' socionics 101?

    Pi-ExxJs were classified as "a person which is enthusiastically trying to relate to the environment in order to make things happen"

    and

    Pe-ExxPs were classified as "a person that crosses borders and builds bridges in the environment"

    To me, your description fits one of the two above; to be more precise, the Pi-ExxJ description seems more accurate given the information you have provided; given that you are a Ji-IxxJ, your relations with him would not be correspondent to perfect duality, which would explain why they can be uncomfortable.

    The behaviour you describe in your latest post is similar to this:

    During conversation they may suddenly interrupt the speaker with comments that others find very funny, whereas the speaker can feel embarrassed.
    And this:

    In attitudes with the woman he subconsciously expects orders, dirty tricks, reproaches. ? receiving similar reactions, involuntarily provokes their display.
    So my final verdict is Ni-ENTj.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    In attitudes with the woman he subconsciously expects orders, dirty tricks, reproaches. ? receiving similar reactions, involuntarily provokes their display.
    That's the description of Victim behavior? But he didn't seem to be "involuntarily" expecting orders etc, he seemed to be trying to get a reaction from her.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    In attitudes with the woman he subconsciously expects orders, dirty tricks, reproaches. ? receiving similar reactions, involuntarily provokes their display.
    That's the description of Victim behavior? But he didn't seem to be "involuntarily" expecting orders etc, he seemed to be trying to get a reaction from her.
    Wouldn't the only plausible reaction to his stuff only be a reproach? I mean, it seems to me that he was looking for that to gauge when to "stop". Anyway, yes, it's the description of victim behaviour.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Well, I see Victim behavior, especially as per that description ("dirty tricks, reproaches", etc) more like -- the Ni guy who, not reaching a woman he's -- wooing -- a few times, immediately assumes that she's avoiding him on purpose, playing games, so he starts to behave according to that assumption, which (if he's wrong) of course becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    What Minde described seemed to me much more straightforward -- he sees a girl as quiet, shy, and he wants to "help" her get going to integrate into the group atmosphere, which is, to keep to Rick's site, what he describes as Beta group behavior.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Ok, do you remember the latests posts in Smilingeyes' socionics 101?
    Well, yes. I've certainly read them. Unfortunately, unless I can attach details to something else, they tend to slip through my memory. So, despite... certain things making a lot of sense, I don't remember everything off the top of my head.

    So please continue to remind me how it all fits together.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Pi-ExxJs were classified as "a person which is enthusiastically trying to relate to the environment in order to make things happen"

    and

    Pe-ExxPs were classified as "a person that crosses borders and builds bridges in the environment"

    To me, your description fits one of the two above; to be more precise, the Pi-ExxJ description seems more accurate given the information you have provided; given that you are a Ji-IxxJ, your relations with him would not be correspondent to perfect duality, which would explain why they can be uncomfortable.
    If you put it like that, I suppose Pi Exxj would fit a little better...

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    The behaviour you describe in your latest post is similar to this:

    During conversation they may suddenly interrupt the speaker with comments that others find very funny, whereas the speaker can feel embarrassed.
    And this:

    In attitudes with the woman he subconsciously expects orders, dirty tricks, reproaches. ? receiving similar reactions, involuntarily provokes their display.
    So my final verdict is Ni-ENTj.
    I'm not sure if it's quite like this. For one thing, he doesn't really interrupt me. Of course, that may have something to do with me not talking a whole lot anyway, but, still, his part isn't so much a commentary on what I'm saying as questions and comments directed at me so as to get a reaction or answer from me, usually my opinion on something. And, it's more for his own amusement as opposed to for the sake of the group. At least, usually.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  23. #23
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    That is classic ESTp behavior. He wants to "get things moving", including people, as if he was starting a pinball game. If you get "moving", he likes it; if you don't, it's boring for him. It's not really about you as a person - not when he does that kind of thing.

    In my "soccer field" metaphor in the Gamma Te views thread -- when he teases you in public, you are the "ball" he wants to get moving. That's what it's about.
    It's not just in public, though. It doesn't seem to matter too much if people are there or not. I mean, it changes slightly, but the teasing is still there.

    As you've suggested, he stops when it's not fun anymore or if he gets distracted. The latter is more likely, though.

    Like I said before, the people he seems to enjoy being around the most are people who can keep up with him. I run out of his type of banter pretty quickly, though with practice I'm getting slightly better.

    If his behavior in those instances are indeed attempts to include me in the group, I can appreciate that a little... perhaps because I'm delta? Though what you say about not being seen as a person puzzles me.
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Though what you say about not being seen as a person puzzles me.
    If you read my Se types description in my "Te views" thread in the Gamma subforum, what I mean is that, when he does that kind of thing, you're a ball he wants to get moving in that particular situation.

    It's less "I will say something to get Minde out of her shell and integrate her in the group" than "Minde's not moving, that's boring, I'll try to get her moving" - where "moving" stands for moving, being talkative, energetic, active, etc etc.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  25. #25
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    It's less "I will say something to get Minde out of her shell and integrate her in the group" than "Minde's not moving, that's boring, I'll try to get her moving" - where "moving" stands for moving, being talkative, energetic, active, etc etc.
    Hm, next time I'm around him I have to watch for this, to see if that's what's happening. Not that I don't think you could be right, but, you know, for confirmation.
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by An ESFj
    Joe? Hm... DOMINANT!!!! His parenting style? Authoritarian (basically, he's in control) PERFECTIONIST!

    Strong willed, yet he has a wonderful sense of humor... unless someone is screwing around !

    He has high expectations of himself and those around him.

    Though he loves perfection, he is also laid back and relational. That makes him perfect for camp director. He gets the job done, can direct tasks, yet can totally communicate and relate to the people he's getting to do the tasks. So I guess his parenting style is a more mild Authoritarian, coming close to Authoritative (the best middle ground for parenting w/love and structure and allowing for child's independence)

    Sometimes he can get caught up in the process and the rules (this is evidence of his dominant side) . Sometimes he needs to show a little more grace, the grace comes out in his sense of humor.

    He loves God. The beautiful thing I see in him that I utterly respect is that he is overwhelmed by his love for God. He isn't perfect, he makes mistakes, he acknowledges that, he knows it. I can know that he isn't perfect in his relationship with God, yet he keeps striving to know God and wants others to know God too. He is very confident, secure in who he is, and I love that he is satisfied with where God has put him.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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