View Poll Results: Carl Sagan's type?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

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  • SEI (ISFp)

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Thread: Carl Sagan

  1. #1
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    Default Carl Sagan

    ILE, IEE, ILI...?

    He had a knack for involving viewers in the process of scientific discovery. He might be compared to Richard Dawkins (they even look similar), but it could be argued that he is more personal and personable.


    Here's an interview with him that might be more informative.




    Here's a sample of his famous "Cosmos" program.
    Last edited by silke; 07-13-2014 at 04:22 PM. Reason: updated links

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    Strikes me as LIE, honestly. or EIE. Some Ni creative.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Yes, Cosmos is mainly Te and Ni, so I'd go for LIE. But I could see IEE too.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Agree with FDG. Has to be ENxx at least, ENTj being most likely. I read like a 1000-page biography of him - unfortunately it was a long time ago and I've forgotten all of it.

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    First impression: weak Se, makes use of Fe, more introverted,

    Sagan's speech reminded me IMMEDIATELY, without even watching, of Hugo Weaving:





    Weaving is definitely rational, IMO, and almost certainly logical. I can see LII or LIE.

    This picture:



    reminds me a LOT of my LII history professor, especially the smile.

    Sagan, when younger, reminds me a little of Jim Carrey (the best view of his face comes at about 5:25 before his lower face goes below the poster; also observe the expressions from about 5:00 on), as well as an LII friend of mine.

    I also see similarities with UDP.

    My only reservation about LII is that he seems much more phlegmatic and relaxed, without the nervousness that I associate with rational intuitives. His gesticulations are mostly smooth (although they seem to end in slight jerks or flourishes at times), but they aren't wide and sweeping like I see in EPs. They also seem to be split between half- and full-armed.

    Not sure about Cosmos being any more Te than Ti; it's thinking in general, if you ask me (although if it HAD to be one more than the other, it would be Te)

    Definitely NT, more likely Alpha than Gamma, IMO, and bears the most resemblance to LIIs. I'd say LII>LIE>ILE.

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    IIRC, the most significant criticism of him was that he was more concerned with popularizing science than doing actual research. To me this suggests that he was most likely extroverted.

    From VI, he does look INTj.

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    That makes him sound way Ti/Fe preference, for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GillySaysGoodbye
    That makes him sound way Ti/Fe preference, for sure.
    How so? Actually his drive to popularize science is what made me consider IEE - that and his being the creator (as far as I know) of the "message to aliens" disk. But surely it's not a characteristic of LIIs and ILE scientists generally, to prefer popularizing to real research. It's not necessarly a LIE characteristic, either; it all depends on what precisely his motivations were to go down that path. It's possible that real research was getting too Ti and Si for him - not sure. What comes across in Cosmos, though, is Te and Ni imo, and he doesn't seem much Fe in that Ted Turner interview.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  9. #9
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    Default Carl Sagan

    What was his type?

  10. #10
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    ILE or IEE.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  11. #11
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    The awesome type

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    He seems more of an NT than an NF to me.

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    I watched a video of him in my Humanities, and I entirely agree with the NT assessment. He struck me with a sense of wonder. He is very bright and I sensed strong Ne and Ti in him. I would call him Alpha NT.
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    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    I thought ENTj

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    IEE? What the hell? He's always struck me as a Gamma NT.
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    I'd type someone like Charlie Rose as an Alpha NT. Watch the full interview to see the interplay between the two.



    Would an Alpha really take these ^ positions regarding hypothesis (starting at about 3:20)? Do the statements he's making here strike you as Alpha valuing?

    Edit:
    There are many hypotheses in science that are wrong. That's perfectly all right; it's the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process. To be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny. The worst aspect of the Velikovsky affair is not that many of his ideas were wrong or silly or in gross contradiction to the facts; rather, the worst aspect is that some scientists attempted to suppress Velikovsky's ideas. The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge and there is no place for it in the endeavor of science. We do not know beforehand where fundamental insights will arise from about our mysterious and lovely solar system, and the history of our study of the solar system shows clearly that accepted and conventional ideas are often wrong and that fundamental insights can arise from the most unexpected sources.
    I'm still completely baffled at the suggestion of an IEE typing.
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    I see Ne/Si>Se/Ni. He's an intelligent scientist, which I think accounts for the views he espouses there, as opposed to "valuing Te."

    Why not ILE? What's so "obviously" off abut IEE?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  18. #18
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    Tereg: do the statements there strike you as NiTe valuing?

    I don't see the conflict with the values of an Alpha NT. Probably the only thing I would say is that he doesn't explicitly mention The Truth in those words, which is often something Ti will mention; but it comes through in the second and third sentences.

    He also mentions insights, and that every idea is worthwhile because there can be a grain of truth or the path to new insights within it, no matter how divorced from reality it is.

    Seems very NeTi.

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    Where is Sagan's novelty interest? Where is his sense of spontaneous curiosity? (READ: I am differentiating from intellectual curiosity.) Where are his trivial tangents? Where is his sense of developing/creating/incubating comfortable, affable environments? Where does he talk about personal development (as opposed to science advancement at large)?

    Edit: To me it seems like his excitement and passion for science and teaching science and its principles is because of what he was able to find out about the universe through using those principles.

    "The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together"

    Edit 2: "I find it elevating and exhilarating to know that we live in a universe that supports the evolution of molecular machines as intricate and subtle as we."

    Would an IEE take a position about skepticism like Sagan does? i.e. Truth claims must be interrogated, must be investigated.
    Last edited by tereg; 08-26-2010 at 02:19 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Where is Sagan's novelty interest? Where is his sense of spontaneous curiosity? (READ: I am differentiating from intellectual curiosity.) Where are his trivial tangents? Where is his sense of developing/creating/incubating comfortable, affable environments? Where does he talk about personal development (as opposed to science advancement at large)?
    Would you expect such things to be diagnosable from a 9 minute video?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    To me it seems like his excitement and passion for science and teaching science and its principles is because of what he was able to find out about the universe through using those principles.
    yes i think i know what you mean: he values the application and implementation of science and its principles (which is /gamma NT), rather than say, the discovery and formulation of the principles and hypotheses (which is more + )

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanks Arthur View Post
    Would you expect such things to be diagnosable from a 9 minute video?
    I wasn't asking specifically in that 9 minute video, but more of his overall personality, demeanor and the principles he lived his life by.
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    .
    Last edited by mfckr; 12-29-2014 at 02:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I've never had a clear idea of his type, but I agree 100% with everything he was saying in the 1st video, as well as the quote tereg pasted. I could easily see him in a / quadra.

    This is pretty much in a nutshell: “The idea is to withhold belief until there is compelling evidence. And if the universe does not comply with our predisposition, OK, then we have the wrenching obligation to accommodate to the way the universe really is.”

    Most of you around here have a lot to learn from him.
    And yet, Isha (who you have typed as IEI) has mirrored those sentiments. To vaguely paraphrase--I think (and please don't take this as the truth, I don't want to be putting words in her mouth)--it's intellectually dishonest to not go back and reevaluate and rethink the conclusions you've made.

    Any self-respecting ENTp will not cling to a singular system of thought. Being EP, they subject their Ti constructions to overhauls, as EPs tend to want to "mix things up" or "get things going". Also, they can recycle fragments of the framework in developing new ones. This is how I understand how they work based on Socionics theory, but I could be wrong/a bit loose. Please don't hold me to any of this until an ILE can comment.

    What do you think, Jx?

    I mean perhaps what's happening is that LIEs and ILEs are very similar in thought pattern, both being Extraverted NTs, enough so that I can project how I understand Isha to think on the way Carl Sagan appears to think.

    The Sagan quote where he talks about Earth as a "pale blue dot" does seem very Ni, and I can't imagine an ILE in seriousness putting how utterly insignificant humanity and its struggles and its history is in a grand cosmic context.

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    Off the interview I say LIE.

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    My gut says ILE, but then again, what do I know?
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-29-2014 at 02:09 AM.

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    Last edited by mfckr; 12-29-2014 at 02:09 AM.

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    What ABOUT that makes you think Gamma NT though?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  30. #30
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    I hear a lot of Ni+Te sentiments in what he says and how he says it. His ability to unravel his understanding of our current place and express that understanding into statements about the current age and the delicacies of the decisions we currently make. He was incredibly intuitive about scale, he understood and was able to clearly elucidate how this planet, the only one we've ever known, where every human care, every achievement, every person, every moment recorded is here, yet compared to the immensity of the cosmos it is just a speck. To me, he had incredible Ni-like insight as far as what we understand about our "place" (for lack of a better word) and the ramifications and potential impacts of all sorts of aspects of modern culture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    yes i think i know what you mean: he values the application and implementation of science and its principles (which is /gamma NT), rather than say, the discovery and formulation of the principles and hypotheses (which is more + )
    I think this is generally true, but ENTp being extroverts are concerned about application and implementation but in a innovation, infrastructure and modernization direction.

    Successful ENTp's are often practical and application oriented people, it's that practicality that allows them the opportunity to indulge their ideas and take risks.

    As far as Sagan, I think what he can be ENTp easily, but I'm uncertain about his type.

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    The fact he runs a television show on science obviously suggests NT, but if you look at his personality which comes through in the program it's more NFish. ENFp seems like a good guess.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think this is generally true, but ENTp being extroverts are concerned about application and implementation but in a innovation, infrastructure and modernization direction.
    So... how are they different from Gamma NTs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat360 View Post
    The fact he runs a television show on science obviously suggests NT
    No it doesn't obviously suggest anything unless you're in the business of making poor assumptions like science = NT.

    Take for instance someone like Richard Feynman. If anything, I would put Feynman closer to an NF than Sagan to NF.



    Contrast how and why he is expressing these big questions differently than someone like Sagan.

    Edit: I should add here I'm not entirely sure of Feynman's type, but if I had to choose who would be more likely ENTp between Feynman and Sagan, I would go with Feynman. I think Feynman is somewhere in the Alpha/Delta range, and I wouldn't say with any confidence that Feynman is NF, but he seems closer to it to me than Sagan.
    Last edited by tereg; 08-26-2010 at 09:54 PM.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiss View Post
    So... how are they different from Gamma NTs?
    Very subtly?

    Here's an example, and you tell me how Gamma differs:

    I recently started up a new guild in WoW, right? Largely because Isha suggested I do so since I was bitching to her about how poorly run my old guild was (well, poorly run from an Alpha POV, the Gammas/Deltas enjoyed it fine). So, I form the guild, and Isha sets to work implementing all the administrative infrastructure, like a website with Google Apps (so the guild has a calendar where people can check in for raids ahead of time) and whatnot.

    I think for Alpha "infrastructure" is just things that help organise a group, or bring it together (either in SF terms of giving a way for people to get together and chat and have fun, or in NT terms of providing a structure that promotes the propagation of information and ideas (I'm just guessing at the NT example, btw)). I already set up an activity parser and voice chat server for the guild on my own initiative, and I'm setting up a public domain mind mapping service for one of my university units if my tutor says I'm allowed to.

    As for innovation and modernisation, I cannot speak.

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    Reposted from the Shirley Manson thread:

    I recall him VI-ing a fuckton like George Harrison. He also VIs a lot like this Ne-INTj guy in my study-abroad group, although I don't have pictures to show for it. Definitely comes off as Pe-Ij in any case imo.

    I kind of find his Pale Blue Dot video to be uninspiring. It feels like he's trying to explain why somebody should have a particular subjective response to something, which I wouldn't expect out of a Te/Fi valuer. It's like "this is how I feel, you should think like me so you can feel the same way I do about it," and I just can't help but ignore things like that. Thunderfoot on Youtube does that a lot too, and Sam and I consider him to be INTj.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    That's funny because I type somebody like thunderf00t as a Gamma NT as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    That's funny because I type somebody like thunderf00t as a Gamma NT as well.
    like hell he's gamma NT. He annoys the shit out of me in ways that gamma NTs have never done.


    lol typing people by subjective impressions
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  39. #39
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    Again, I'll do another comparison, compare thunderf00t's methodology to somebody like zjemptv. zjemptv is somebody I'd consider as an Alpha NT

    Edit: Another Gamma NT example I can think of is nykytyne2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Again, I'll do another comparison, compare thunderf00t's methodology to somebody like zjemptv. zjemptv is somebody I'd consider as an Alpha NT

    Edit: Another Gamma NT example I can think of is nykytyne2.
    zjemptv seems Alpha NT to me too, probably Ti-ENTp. He seems much less focused on objective evidence and much more on the internal logical consistencies of the arguments, although that doesn't mean Te/Fi people will disagree with his arguments. Hell I don't even disagree with thunderf00t at all, but he just seems so much more prone to arguing the consistency of arguments, and providing discrete, objective sources that would counter his opponent's arguments seems to be a secondary and less important act. It's more that to both of them, evidence is slaved to their pre-disposed beliefs and not the other way around. Compare their argumentation styles to someone like AronRa, who I consider to be Te-ESTj: he's quick to cite his sources, and often demands the same of others.

    As for nykytyne2, I'm not so sure. I'll have to see some more videos of his. His Matrix video is pretty retarded though haha.
    Last edited by Galen; 08-27-2010 at 04:21 AM.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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