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Thread: Type Benchmark Project

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    Default Type Benchmark Project

    Why don't we do a benchmark project similar to Russian-speaking socionists? It's not that hard to do. Then we will have a list of people whose types we actually more or less agree on.

    Anyone who is reasonably experienced in socionics may participate (you decide whether that applies to you).

    Download this form and save it to your computer. Then follow the instructions on the form and send it to me.

    Instructions:
    1. the form is divided into 16 columns by quadra. Enter names directly under the column heading (this should be obvious looking at the forum)
    2. Write the last name, then first when necessary ("Einstein" or "Einstein, Albert" or "Cruise, Tom")
    3. famous people and people from the forum may be included (using their avatar name)
    4. only include people whose type you are more or less sure of and could provide some reasonable argumentation (these must be conscientious typings)

    The final result will look like the Russian socionics benchmark list, except that I will probably not calculate convergence values for each participant, because that is very time-consuming. If someone else wants to help with that, we can cooperate. The results will not show any names, so this will be anonymous to readers. The final list will consist of people typed by four or more participants and with a level of agreement of 75% or higher (same rules as the Russian benchmark list).

    Try to send me your lists by the end of May.

    (could somebody make this a sticky topic?)

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    This is an excellent idea. I can help calculate convergence values, in Excel or otherwise. I have a question: are you planning to include fictional characters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    This is an excellent idea. I can help calculate convergence values, in Excel or otherwise. I have a question: are you planning to include fictional characters?
    Um... let's leave fictional characters out this time around.
    I think convergence values in our case will not be as significant as over there in Russia and Ukraine, but I will be happy to include that in the study with your help. I just think it will at least double the amount of work. Do you know a way to do this other than by counting up convergence figures by hand?

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    I don't know how to do it in Excel currently, but I can copy and paste the data from the spreadsheet into Notepad. Once the data are in a text-based format it would be quite easy. (In fact doing it in Excel would probably be more trouble than it's worth, since we're dealing with multiple spreadsheets.) I could even do the entire thing this way, not just the convergences.

    Small typos could throw off the process in any case, so the data should be visually double-checked too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I don't know how to do it in Excel currently, but I can copy and paste the data from the spreadsheet into Notepad. Once the data are in a text-based format it would be quite easy. (In fact doing it in Excel would probably be more trouble than it's worth.) I could even do the entire thing this way, not just the convergences.

    Small typos could throw off the process in any case, so the data should be visually double-checked too.
    What I was planning on doing was copying all the separate spreadsheets onto a single one, doing an alphabetical sorting of each column, and then going through the list visually.

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    Yeah, that would be a lot more difficult. I can PM you my e-mail address so you can send me the data (in spreadsheet form would be fine).

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Yeah, that would be a lot more difficult. I can PM you my e-mail address so you can send me the data (in spreadsheet form would be fine).
    Awesome. Let's wait a few weeks and come back to this when some results are in.

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    ok.

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    For the record, I don't like this idea. Very few people here of met most of the people that will be on their charts, and there aren't really any "professional" socionists here. Most people tend to agree with the "general consensus" of people's types (among other things), which is something I do not respect at all. I'll work on it anyways though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    For the record, I don't like this idea. Very few people here of met most of the people that will be on their charts, and there aren't really any "professional" socionists here. Most people tend to agree with the "general consensus" of people's types (among other things), which is something I do not respect at all.

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    are you going to give us a standard list of people to type or do we give you a bunch of random names that are likely to be totally different from everyone else's?

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    I agree that it would help to have suggestions of people to include.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Yes, that might make things difficult for people who don't record their typings. If you have to, you could go through old threads in "What's My Type?".

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    Or we could list people here... and for forum members, just go to the memberlist and arrange it in descending order by number of posts and go through it, and for those people who you have your own type opinions on, put them in your chart.

    The only celebrities that I've added so far are Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Sylvester Stallone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy

    The only celebrities that I've added so far are Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Sylvester Stallone.

    extremely controversial and oddball typings you must have

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    ENTj, ENTj, ESFp
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    ..... yes, we get it.

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    I think it would be an extremely bad idea to post the typings (or even the people) publicly, which would make consensus-based typings even more likely.

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    then why did you say "extremely controversial and oddball typings you must have"?
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    eh nm I get it
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    no anime characters!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I think it would be an extremely bad idea to post the typings (or even the people) publicly, which would make consensus-based typings even more likely.
    I see your point. Perhaps people could send one person a list of famous people they're typing and that person can post the list?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I think it would be an extremely bad idea to post the typings (or even the people) publicly, which would make consensus-based typings even more likely.
    I see your point. Perhaps people could send one person a list of famous people they're typing and that person can post the list?
    Yes, Rick can do that if he likes, once people send their typings in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    then why did you say "extremely controversial and oddball typings you must have"?
    He was being sarcastic.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    eh nm I get it
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    Gotcha.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush

    Yes, Rick can do that if he likes, once people send their typings in.
    if he does that, he should avoid including those people he's typed on his site or his blog in order to avoid that "consnsus" mechanism.

    the above may not apply to people whose typings are universally known but still widely contested for some reason (ie einstein)

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush

    Yes, Rick can do that if he likes, once people send their typings in.
    if he does that, he should avoid including those people he's typed on his site or his blog in order to avoid that "consnsus" mechanism.

    the above may not apply to people whose typings are universally known but still widely contested for some reason (ie einstein)
    that could get a bit rediculous... if he can't include the people people he's already typed in the list than everything he's done up to this point is worthless and there goes his inspiration for the whole shebang...

    next somebody's going to suggest that we all have to wear blindfolds and earplugs while we're typing people

    I don't see the need for all these silly extra conditions and steps to this whole deal. What's wrong with the way Rick originally presented it? It's nice and simple...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat

    that could get a bit rediculous... if he can't include the people people he's already typed in the list than everything he's done up to this point is worthless and there goes his inspiration for the whole shebang...

    next somebody's going to suggest that we all have to wear blindfolds and earplugs while we're typing people

    I don't see the need for all these silly extra conditions and steps to this whole deal. What's wrong with the way Rick originally presented it? It's nice and simple...
    it's not like there aren't a hundred other people he's investigating.

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    OK, it seems there are two main concerns here:

    1. Everyone will have different people on their lists, leading to a lot of "wasted effort"
    2. People tend to follow the "general consensus" anyway

    This is the same methodology that the Russians used to create their benchmark list, and I think we will see some people on the final list that have not been discussed at length here. I will have plenty of people on my list who are not posted on my site. Hopefully, the experience of creating a list like this will be useful for participants in and of itself. Of course most people typed will not make it on the final list, but that's the whole point.

    I can suggest going through the list of forum members on this site, people discussed in the "what's my type?" section of the forum, lists like "top 100 celebrities" at Wikipedia, type lists that other socionists have created, etc.

    As for the second point, here we will have to trust the good faith of each contributor. I wrote:
    4. only include people whose type you are more or less sure of and could provide some reasonable argumentation (these must be conscientious typings)
    There should be no motivation to put as many people on one's list as possible, since no one will find out about individual lists anyway.

    After the final result is in, we can try to judge how much of the list comes from "following the general consensus." The one's who cried "groupthink!" and "brainwashing!" after the Russian benchmark project were primarily the ones with the lowest convergence rate with the final list. The final list will show for each person:
    - how many people typed him or her
    - what the agreement rate was
    - what other versions there were, if any

    Also, I have posted the same announcement at the Socionix forum and would announce at Socionics.com if there were a way. I'll post an announcement on my site as well. The more input from people outside the forum, the better.

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    I think we should gather the past threads if you guys wanna do this.
    Like gather the links of the past threads where a person's type was more or less agreed by the majority, then move on from there?

    Just a suggestion.
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    I think we should gather the past threads if you guys wanna do this.
    Like gather the links of the past threads where a person's type was more or less agreed by the majority, then move on from there?

    Just a suggestion.
    That's a different project, but if someone wants to do that, great.

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    Another issue is that there are people whose types I've thought about a lot, and I've changed my mind a few times. I don't like the idea of making a list that I can't change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Another issue is that there are people whose types I've thought about a lot, and I've changed my mind a few times. I don't like the idea of making a list that I can't change.
    If you feel you're likely to change your typing of someone in the future, don't include them in the list. Also, we can repeat this project at any stage in the future.

    Also, we need someone to make this same announcement at the socionics.com forum so that people from there can participate, too.

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    The problem is that there are people who think they're one type... say... INFj... and because that's what they've claimed it's the "general consensus". If I disagree and think they're either INFp or ISFp, not including them on my chart might as well be a vote (yes, vote) for INFj.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    The problem is that there are people who think they're one type... say... INFj... and because that's what they've claimed it's the "general consensus". If I disagree and think they're either INFp or ISFp, not including them on my chart might as well be a vote (yes, vote) for INFj.

    obviously the only plausible solution to such a conundrum is suicide.

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    Just a few thoughts...
    * Everyone is at a different level of skill. To deal with this issue, create a short list of 'test' people that everyone should try to type. People can indicate whether they want any of those to count as their "official typings" (obviously, someone one isn't sure of shouldn't be counted). But with everyone typing a short list of people, we can automatically tell if a person's typing system is outside the mainstream. Then we can give that person a weighted vote for his/her other typings. For example, if the person's correlation with the group (or maybe with a group of experienced Socionists) on the short list is .5, maybe that person's typings only count as .5 of a vote for the overall tallies.

    * If there's a big response, it should be possible to create a macro that loops through all the results of speadsheets in a given directory, so no copying and pasting would be needed.

    * In any case, if you make the raw results available somehow (e.g., post the spreadsheets in a directory that allows directory browing, or just name them in a way that anyone could download them all), then you can get the benefit of everybody's statistical analysis ideas and skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Just a few thoughts...
    * Everyone is at a different level of skill. To deal with this issue, create a short list of 'test' people that everyone should try to type. People can indicate whether they want any of those to count as their "official typings" (obviously, someone one isn't sure of shouldn't be counted). But with everyone typing a short list of people, we can automatically tell if a person's typing system is outside the mainstream. Then we can give that person a weighted vote for his/her other typings. For example, if the person's correlation with the group (or maybe with a group of experienced Socionists) on the short list is .5, maybe that person's typings only count as .5 of a vote for the overall tallies.
    I don't like that idea. It would artificially increase the homogeneity of the results.

    * If there's a big response, it should be possible to create a macro that loops through all the results of speadsheets in a given directory, so no copying and pasting would be needed.
    Yeah, or you could just save each file in text format directly from the spreadsheet (Save As -> txt), which would accomplish the same thing as copying and pasting.

    * In any case, if you make the raw results available somehow (e.g., post the spreadsheets in a directory that allows directory browing, or just name them in a way that anyone could download them all), then you can get the benefit of everybody's statistical analysis ideas and skills.
    Everybody? I doubt there will be a widespread demand for this. Even if there is, people should consent to making their typings public first. Otherwise, if you have ideas about how to process the data, then we can consider them as a group.

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    I am working on a way to automatically extract the data to text format.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I am working on a way to automatically extract the data to text format.
    Done.

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