Theory on Ne PoLR

[Creepy-male]

I was thinking, everyone has a little bit of Ne in them in reality, a person is never blinded to seeing possiblities or potentials. However different people understand possibilities very differently and so its not crazy to assume different types see possibilities differently. So basically my idea was that PoLR Ne is likely to see possiblities also, but less likely to use or listen to them. The next immediate question of course is why? My theory is that PoLR Ne types ignore possibilities because unlike dominant Ne types they tend to get into the means of overfocusing on the negative possiblities, they tend to worry alot about what could happen and use that to prepare themselves in the moment. Dominant Ne types on the other hand focus on the positive possiblities, they tend to think in terms of dont worry this thing here is possible and are more confident about the future and less worried about the future. I also think that the moment a person starts developing a worrying nature about the future they become more and more weak in Ne and more and more concerning with creative Si, just the same the more stock people put in positive possibilities they more strong they become in Ne.

Thoughts on this?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[krieger]

I think it is about taking something that the person considers absolute and irreplaceable, and treating that thing as if it is something very common that can just as well be substituted for something 'better'.

[Creepy-male]

I guess this post was more concerning with WHY Ne PoLR and less concerned with WHAT Ne PoLR. However you choose to define Ne PoLR, the point is they stray away from possibilities, and the question I am looking to investigate is why they do this, what motivates them to do this. What I am not looking for is how they stray away from possiblities or what possiblities they stray away from, which is the ideas your giving me.

My theory is they don't like extra possibilities because it worries and stresses them out, while Ne dominants it gives them a very positive feeling - a kind of inspiring feeling like, its not written in stone, come here check this out, this is also possible, why don't we strive for this?

[Gilly]

It's not that they ignore them; it's just not their primary focus in life. Positive implications are that they don't waste time on potentially impractical undertakings and are more directed and confident in "the real world." Negative implications are that they tend to take things at face value, and almost always dismiss new ways of thinking or different methods of going about things. They aren't alert to "bad" possibilities any more than "good" ones, but when they see them, they tend to fixate on the negative ones because the PoLR is a paranoid function.

[Creepy-male]

It's not that they ignore them; it's just not their primary focus in life. Positive implications are that they don't waste time on potentially impractical undertakings and are more directed and confident in "the real world." Negative implications are that they tend to take things at face value, and almost always dismiss new ways of thinking or different methods of going about things. They aren't alert to "bad" possibilities any more than "good" ones, but when they see them, they tend to fixate on the negative ones because the PoLR is a paranoid function.

I like this idea about a paranoid function -- however to me I am thinking the basis of paranoid function and PoLR is that a person's fear determines their limitations of personality which in turns determines along with other factors their type, rather than a type being ingrained from birth, but thats just my idea.

[Gilly]

I like this idea about a paranoid function -- however to me I am thinking the basis of paranoid function and PoLR is that a person's fear determines their limitations of personality which in turns determines along with other factors their type, rather than a type being ingrained from birth, but thats just my idea.

I'm also of the belief that types are not entirely inborn.

[Creepy-male]

cool so, what do you think would it be possible for a person's fears to define a type and for a traumatic experience to incite a type shift?? For example a person strives for an like goal, fails and become overly realistic and cynical and shifts their to PoLR because of bad experience with -- just as a possible scenario??

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-male]

What exactly is a Ne-like goal?

Well Ne is concerned with possibility, so I'd think an Ne like goal would be striving for something possible but not in place

this would be opposed to a more sensor goal which could best be described as, "Practical Pursuits"

[XoX]

What exactly is a Ne-like goal?

Building a teleporter to each planet in the universe and teleporting all the annoying life forms to distant planets and teleporting the cool life forms to live on earth. Or something like that I guess. That is a bit ENFipsh goal I think. ENTp goals would probably involve more robots and blonds but still something along those lines.

[Megan]

What exactly is a Ne-like goal?

Building a teleporter to each planet in the universe and teleporting all the annoying life forms to distant planets and teleporting the cool life forms to live on earth. Or something like that I guess. That is a bit ENFipsh goal I think. ENTp goals would probably involve more robots and blonds but still something along those lines.

I think I like very much :wink:

[mikemex]

In socionics terms Se/Ne is mental stiffness. Se types have convergent thinking and thus very little tolerance for divergent thinking characteristic of Ne types.

You can observe it from a conversation with a Ne PoLR. I have a friend who is ISFj and she's very lineal. When I start to branch in the conversation she always tries to get back at what we were discussing first. Since I know about socionics I try to focus more on Fi than on Ne when I'm around her.

[Gilly]

cool so, what do you think would it be possible for a person's fears to define a type and for a traumatic experience to incite a type shift?? For example a person strives for an like goal, fails and become overly realistic and cynical and shifts their to PoLR because of bad experience with -- just as a possible scenario??

Well, IMO, some part of our natural personality and communication style is inborn or determined by random factors in chromosome splicings and gene alterations that determine brain chemistry etc etc, but I also believe that part of what a person's personality "becomes" is a result of what is rewarded in his or her environment, or, in an unhealthy scenario, what helps them most effectively combat their surroundings or make up for other defficiencies. I do think peoples' types can "change" if the right kind of environmental pressure is applied and conditions are right, or if a person goes through a major life transition.

Basically, the way I see it, it's part nature, part nuture. The longer you get used to "being" one thing, the harder it is to change, most likely, but I still think it's possible.

[Ms. Kensington]

What exactly is a Ne-like goal?

Building a teleporter to each planet in the universe and teleporting all the annoying life forms to distant planets and teleporting the cool life forms to live on earth. Or something like that I guess. That is a bit ENFipsh goal I think. ENTp goals would probably involve more robots and blonds but still something along those lines.

I think I like very much :wink:

hehe i think one just likes XoX very much.

[FDG]

almost always dismiss new ways of thinking or different methods of going about things.

I have to disagree given the sheer amount of ISxjs I see in relatively new branches of science. What is true, instead, is that they don't favor purely theoretical approaches. You can propose a completely different method as long as it is practically implementable, and they will accept it - after all, if it's real, it's real. The trouble comes with acceptance of new ideas.

You can observe a particular kind of idiotic Ne in Mikemex. He never suggests anything worthwhile, at the same time always boasting about his capabilities and his awesomeness. This behaviour obviously gets very much on the nerves of ISxjs, that 1)have trouble estimating their own intellectual capabilities 2)dislike off-the-wall stuff

[FDG]

In socionics terms Se/Ne is mental stiffness. Se types have convergent thinking and thus very little tolerance for divergent thinking characteristic of Ne types.

You can observe it from a conversation with a Ne PoLR. I have a friend who is ISFj and she's very lineal. When I start to branch in the conversation she always tries to get back at what we were discussing first. Since I know about socionics I try to focus more on Fi than on Ne when I'm around her.

Bullshit. He/She's just not smart enough. The smarter ones will follow everything provided that you make the connections explicit when they are not.

[anndelise]

In socionics terms Se/Ne is mental stiffness. Se types have convergent thinking and thus very little tolerance for divergent thinking characteristic of Ne types.

No.
When my daughter got tested, the psychologist commented on her divergent thinking abilities and how it would likely cause problems in school. The psychologist also acknowledged that Manta did seem to be a (kiersian) ESFP. My daughter is socionics E(S)Fp.

I've also known a number of ESFps and they also were more divergent thinkers than convergent or linear.

[Gilly]

almost always dismiss new ways of thinking or different methods of going about things.

I have to disagree given the sheer amount of ISxjs I see in relatively new branches of science. What is true, instead, is that they don't favor purely theoretical approaches. You can propose a completely different method as long as it is practically implementable, and they will accept it - after all, if it's real, it's real. The trouble comes with acceptance of new ideas.

You can observe a particular kind of idiotic Ne in Mikemex. He never suggests anything worthwhile, at the same time always boasting about his capabilities and his awesomeness. This behaviour obviously gets very much on the nerves of ISxjs, that 1)have trouble estimating their own intellectual capabilities 2)dislike off-the-wall stuff

Well, obviously, if the branch of science is at all established and has legitimate scientific research to legitimize it, there will be no need for Ne-PoLR speculations; the justification of its legitimacy is the fact that they can get a job in it and make a living. They falter when it comes to discovering or accepting new things within such a field that have no precedent, or improvising methods that aren't detailed in standard procedure or don't follow immediately from it.

[FDG]

almost always dismiss new ways of thinking or different methods of going about things.

I have to disagree given the sheer amount of ISxjs I see in relatively new branches of science. What is true, instead, is that they don't favor purely theoretical approaches. You can propose a completely different method as long as it is practically implementable, and they will accept it - after all, if it's real, it's real. The trouble comes with acceptance of new ideas.

You can observe a particular kind of idiotic Ne in Mikemex. He never suggests anything worthwhile, at the same time always boasting about his capabilities and his awesomeness. This behaviour obviously gets very much on the nerves of ISxjs, that 1)have trouble estimating their own intellectual capabilities 2)dislike off-the-wall stuff

Well, obviously, if the branch of science is at all established and has legitimate scientific research to legitimize it, there will be no need for Ne-PoLR speculations; the justification of its legitimacy is the fact that they can get a job in it and make a living. They falter when it comes to discovering or accepting new things within such a field that have no precedent, or improvising methods that aren't detailed in standard procedure or don't follow immediately from it.

I agree with the first part; I disagree with the last part of your posts. Believe it or not there are ISTj technicians/inventors/programmers that can do things out of stratch.
Something to add. I don't think Ne polr has problems doing the things you mention because there aren't really that many "bad" consequences. However tell a very Se ISxj to change the road he/she drives home, and he/she will be dowright scared of going by himself on a new place.

[anndelise]

However tell a very Se ISxj to change the road he/she drives home, and he/she will be dowright scared of going by himself on a new place.

*shivers* she's not an isxj, but when manta was young, she sure got pissy when i'd take a different route...or when i was homeschooling her she'd get mad at me for trying to show her a different way she could doing something. and if you didn't teach her the "proper" way first, you're screwed because she'd stick with the first method come hell or high water.
...(she's more flexible nowadays than she was...whew)

[Gilly]

I think your example is far more stereotypical and exaggerated than mine I'm not saying that they never come up with anything new or can't improvise, but unless they see the exact reasoning behind doing something not according to procedure in terms that they understand, they're going to be very reluctant to deviate from SOP, and they aren't exactly the best at handling crisis situations where improvisation is necessary under pressure (unless they're very familiar with the situation or exceptionally confident in the abilities necessary to perform the task that needs to be done).

[XoX]

Stress and pressure probably affects ISXj use of Ne quite much. The more pressure is applied the more they rely on Se. So Se is sort of their "survival tactic" but if there are no "threats" around they can, I assume, be much more open to Ne. e.g. if they are in a hurry they'd be VERY reluctant to try a new shortcut route someone suggests but if they are just doing a "sunday drive" then they are more open to explore new driving routes. I think they do like to learn new things and methods it is just they are not capable of doing it well under stress and (time) pressure.

[Gilly]

e.g. if they are in a hurry they'd be VERY reluctant to try a new shortcut route someone suggests but if they are just doing a "sunday drive" then they are more open to explore new driving routes.

This is a horrible example, because it's pretty much true of everyone, but the gist of your post is getting there, at least.

[XoX]

e.g. if they are in a hurry they'd be VERY reluctant to try a new shortcut route someone suggests but if they are just doing a "sunday drive" then they are more open to explore new driving routes.

This is a horrible example, because it's pretty much true of everyone, but the gist of your post is getting there, at least.

It is NOT true for everyone. It might be related to other functions than Ne though. Some people I know are very good at improvising new shortcuts _especially_ if they are in a hurry and feel the conventional routes are not likely to be fast enough.

[Creepy-male]

almost always dismiss new ways of thinking or different methods of going about things.

I have to disagree given the sheer amount of ISxjs I see in relatively new branches of science. What is true, instead, is that they don't favor purely theoretical approaches. You can propose a completely different method as long as it is practically implementable, and they will accept it - after all, if it's real, it's real. The trouble comes with acceptance of new ideas.

You can observe a particular kind of idiotic Ne in Mikemex. He never suggests anything worthwhile, at the same time always boasting about his capabilities and his awesomeness. This behaviour obviously gets very much on the nerves of ISxjs, that 1)have trouble estimating their own intellectual capabilities 2)dislike off-the-wall stuff

Well, obviously, if the branch of science is at all established and has legitimate scientific research to legitimize it, there will be no need for Ne-PoLR speculations; the justification of its legitimacy is the fact that they can get a job in it and make a living. They falter when it comes to discovering or accepting new things within such a field that have no precedent, or improvising methods that aren't detailed in standard procedure or don't follow immediately from it.

I agree with the first part; I disagree with the last part of your posts. Believe it or not there are ISTj technicians/inventors/programmers that can do things out of stratch.
Something to add. I don't think Ne polr has problems doing the things you mention because there aren't really that many "bad" consequences. However tell a very Se ISxj to change the road he/she drives home, and he/she will be dowright scared of going by himself on a new place.

I knew an ISTj guy that wanted to be involved in engineering, when I asked him why he chose engineering as a career and what he thinks he contributed he said this, "I would like to get a job, probably from the state working as an engineer, I think it would contribute to society by giving people technology and building things for them". He was very against deep meaningful/advocacy like stuff, he gets really annoyed how people go out and do special advocacy/human rights stuff and said he gets annoyed by celebrities who spend alot of there time doing stuff like that. My impression was it was a bit excessive, but in the end it helps more people than it hurts, he just said they should instead work through the social system and government etc to help people. In science he had a firm grasp of the "rules of science" and paid attention to the idea the proffesor talked about, his intuitive understanding was weak -- I asked him, if you decrease the radius of a tube a fluid is traveling in its speed....., he answered decreases, it obviously intuitive it increases, it like putting your finger on the end of a hose. He also was really easy to one up in debates, he never say the next blow coming up and never could react -- our debates would go like -- "Oh I just killed you <in halo>, oh <I'd get on top of his dead char and make humping motions>, you got raped" -- he'd respond "Oh wow you must get pleasure out of that raping my character, are you gay?" -- I'd respond "Bryan, its not me who is raping you, its my character, its only a game" -- Eventually he'd kill me and repeat the flaunting bragging I started to do -- I'd respond "Bryan, you must like that huh, are you gay?" -- Bryan would repeat my rationale -- I'd respond "Yeah, but you are watching it aren't you, its like watching gay porn, hence your gay right" -- the whole thing is childish but it was extremely easy just to press his buttons with one upping him, he could never see it coming either, it was like he was oblivious to the next move. Anyways I conclude ISTj are better with empirical lab analysis and finding a practical way to apply an idea in the lab and spend their scientific time invesitigating things in labs and writing reports using established scientific theory. ISTj's don't really like over-flown fanciful things but prefer practical things that contribute to society effectively. Third, ISTj's are horrible at responding to one upping, a very ENxp thing, one upping involves searching for another possibility, ISTj's are too concreted in their arguments based in practicality, all you need to do is confuse their common sense get them in an analytical mess and then keep one upping them in the analysis, soon they will get ultra confused and just result to throwing a tantrum like a child -- however some ISTj are much more intelligent and will just dispell the one upping as word twisting from the reality of the matter.

[Creepy-male]

e.g. if they are in a hurry they'd be VERY reluctant to try a new shortcut route someone suggests but if they are just doing a "sunday drive" then they are more open to explore new driving routes.

This is a horrible example, because it's pretty much true of everyone, but the gist of your post is getting there, at least.

This isn't true at all, I would always find new routes when I drove, I knew north, south, east, west, and the major highways etc and spent time carving out paths. Other times I would find unusual ways to exit traffic that was faster, like the idea that 3 rights is quicker than a left at a light cause you get the right on red. I do this all the time, my mom a ISTj doesn't like it too much, she isn't reluctant for any other reason than she doesn't trust new routes, different traffic and procedures to deal with that stress her out and cause her to get more alert, is uncertain about the time since she hasn't experienced the route before. However its all about not trusting a new possibility being skeptical of the possibility and kind of assuming a practical mindset of assume the unknown and uncontrolled will fail, it takes its form in worry and anxiety in her and its effective in her case she's very organized and knows what she knows in terms of practicality.

[FDG]

I think your example is far more stereotypical and exaggerated than mine

But it comes out of observation of living for 20 years with two ISxjs, whereas you are talking out of your ass :wink:

[Gilly]

e.g. if they are in a hurry they'd be VERY reluctant to try a new shortcut route someone suggests but if they are just doing a "sunday drive" then they are more open to explore new driving routes.

This is a horrible example, because it's pretty much true of everyone, but the gist of your post is getting there, at least.

It is NOT true for everyone. It might be related to other functions than Ne though. Some people I know are very good at improvising new shortcuts _especially_ if they are in a hurry and feel the conventional routes are not likely to be fast enough.

Here's the thing: if an Ne-EP is driving in an area a lot, he will probably seek out the faster routes on his own, and will know what they are by the time they need to use them in a hurry. But if the guy is new in the area and his pregnant wife is about to bust, he's not any more likely to go on some crazy back road that he doesn't know to get to the hospital than an ESI. The difference is that, over a period of time, an Ne type would be more likely to seek out alternate routes, and would therefore know what they are when the need arises, whereas the Ne PoLR type would never have bothered.