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Thread: Quasi-identicals: Similarities and differences

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    Default Quasi-identicals: Similarities and differences

    Theory: Quasi identicals appear similar for the following reasons:

    An accepting dynamic perceiving function is more focused-seeming than the corresponding accepting static perceiving function, but the same static perceptive function is also more focused-seeming when it's a creative function than when it's accepting.

    Also, a creative dynamic judging function seems less externally focused than an accepting dynamic judging function, but so does the corresponding accepting static judging function.

    In addition, every function draws on its opposite (I/E) form to some extent.

    Hence, quasi identicals appear similar.

    Practice: Things that quasi-identicals do that are similar, and why they're different:

    ISF: Enjoying a walk in nature.
    ISFj: Focuses on identification with animals one passes by, and with the person one's walking with
    ISFp: Focuses on losing oneself in "fun" things to do, telling stories, etc.

    ESF: Acting like a wild person.
    ESFp: Emphasis is on doing bold things
    ESFj: Emphasis is on drumming up people's enthusiasm

    EST: Taking charge.
    ESTp: Emphasis is on being up at the front, doing things and achieving certain results
    ESTj: Emphasis is on establishing order and cutting off inefficient activities

    IST: Doing stuff very efficiently
    ISTp: Emphasis is on personal action with a style of brevity or directness, and constant refinement of skill
    ISTj: Emphasis is on keeping track of things in an orderly fashion and making sure they're being done a certain way

    ENF: Enlisting people's support in a vision
    ENFj: Assigns people roles, and determines how each person's actions fit into the overall picture; takes oversight of structure and delegates content creation; vision is likely to be somewhat well-defined, with lots of room for others to play prominent roles
    ENFp: Announces a vision and seeks other people to play a support role and to give the vision structure; takes oversight of content creation and delegates structure; vision is likely to be rather open-ended, but with the ENFp playing the starring role

    ENT: Creating a new endeavor or enterprise
    ENTp: Talks about idea and begins realizing a prototype; plans to extend it or build it into something
    ENTj: Gets busy creating a well-planned infrastructure; talks to people about it once it's in reasonable form; plans to effectively implement own enterprise, using hard work and well-conceived processes

    INF: Discussing personal relationships
    INFp: Is on a journey, constantly trying to figure out the meaning of one's life
    INFj: Has clear personal choices one wants to realize, and enjoys discussing different possibilities for fun, stimulation, bonding with people, and acquiring necessary knowledge

    INT: Discussing a philosophical theory or idea
    INTp: Seeks to apply problem-solving abilities to problems, and put forth solutions to these problems, hoping for some sort of gain for oneself or others from one's various intellectual products and discoveries. Seeks to create methods and techniques that will aid in this process.
    INTj: Seeks to extend and promote one's understanding of core reality and of the basic premises upon which to make sense or reality, and to build on this understanding and order one's actions accordingly in a fully consistent and well-ordered manner.

    **
    In addition to this, I hypothesize that in general, ability to tell quasi-identicals (and other similar types) apart is not completely symmetrical:
    * N types usually value acting outside their normal personality more than S types
    * Introverted types are more likely to not show their true behavior outwardly than extraverted types
    * Irrational types are more inclined to change back and forth between personality roles than rational types
    * T types are more likely to consciously experiment with their overall way of viewing the world than F types.

    I'm interested in any additions to this...particularly examples of things that quasi-identity types or other similar but quadra-crossed types (contrary, comparative) do that look very similar, and why they're still different.

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    ehhh... I don't agree with ISFp (if that is in fact what I am) I enjoy walks in nature just to gell out and meld into it. It's not so much about fun (although that is a part of it) it's more about attaining a sense of tranquility, peace, and harmony. I actually find other people to be a bit of a distraction in those situations.

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    I know a lot of ILI's, and as a LII, I can say I'm nothing like ILI's.

    Quasi-identicals seem similar, but they are actually VERY different to each other. Augusta said that J-P was like a switch.

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    I liked that trip to the park... I was totally there with you :wink:

    I think I've just burned away my loneliness function. I'm totally comfortable by myself and never think of or pine for other people when I'm in those situations- alone with nature I am a hermit, but I'm not saying I don't enjoy people. When I'm around them I have all sorts of fun and don't have problems interracting or anything like that... it's just not really something I seek out unless theres a reason for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    ehhh... I don't agree with ISFp (if that is in fact what I am) I enjoy walks in nature just to gell out and meld into it. It's not so much about fun (although that is a part of it) it's more about attaining a sense of tranquility, peace, and harmony. I actually find other people to be a bit of a distraction in those situations.
    Good point...I knew that people who are actually those types could elaborate further.

    @Diana...Are you saying you're an ISFp too? I wasn't sure what type you consider yourself as. I thought you said you were ISFj once, but maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    ehhh... I don't agree with ISFp (if that is in fact what I am) I enjoy walks in nature just to gell out and meld into it. It's not so much about fun (although that is a part of it) it's more about attaining a sense of tranquility, peace, and harmony. I actually find other people to be a bit of a distraction in those situations.
    And those would be similar reasons to mine. Although not always so peaceful, and not always am I glad to be alone. For instance I might run through the rain in a thunderstorm, splashing in the puddles, watching the crack of lightning, feeling the boom of the thunder. And I might run to the top of a hill with the wind gusting, fighting against the wind where it practically knocks me down, and a storm rolls in. Then stand with the wind pummeling me at the top of the hill as I look at all that stretches out below me, soaking it in. I used to like to lay in the snow all bundled up and just watch the snowflakes as they fell swirling and drifting and covering me, ignoring how cold I was getting. Sometimes I wish I had someone to share those kinds of things with.

    But even more serene appreciation of nature too sometimes makes me lonely. Like when I sit on my deck looking at the stars, or watch the sunset, or even when I'm driving my kids home from the rec center and right at the top of the hill by the college, the park extends below, green and with sunlight bouncing off of the people playing soccer, throwing baseballs, walking their dogs, and the moutain looks blue, with green streaks and patches, and all the crabapple trees are in bloom, splashing the view with pinks, and the clouds hover in the sky with their blues and grays, and I just wish that there was another pair of eyes that I could point this out to and know they were appreciating it as much as me.

    Okay. /end of whatever that was. Sometimes I feel like I'm still a kid who's just trying to be a responsible adult. Summer especially makes me feel like a kid.
    awwwwwww
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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    I know a lot of ILI's, and as a LII, I can say I'm nothing like ILI's.

    Quasi-identicals seem similar, but they are actually VERY different to each other. Augusta said that J-P was like a switch.
    Yes...very different. But I was trying to articulate what the differences are, especially when in similar situations. Do you agree with what I said here on ILI vs. LII, or how would you rephrase it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Oh no! I'm not ISFp!


    [spoil:a40ad0a9fa] [/spoil:a40ad0a9fa]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    I know a lot of ILI's, and as a LII, I can say I'm nothing like ILI's.

    Quasi-identicals seem similar, but they are actually VERY different to each other. Augusta said that J-P was like a switch.
    Yes...very different. But I was trying to articulate what the differences are, especially when in similar situations. Do you agree with what I said here on ILI vs. LII, or how would you rephrase it?
    I can't say whether or not I agree, that seems pretty vague to me, here is a simpler and more serious comparison :

    Theoretically, there are differences and similarities on :

    - Traits (Jung's and Reinin's)
    - Quaternions (groups of 4 types)
    - TIM structure

    Most notable are :

    1. Temperament

    LII is IJ, which is the strong-balanced-inert temperament.
    ILI is IP, which is the weak temperament.

    NB : EJ is strong-balanced-mobile and EP is strong-unbalanced

    IJ is more able to endure stimulation than IP. I often observed IP females reacting to over-stimulation... Females are actually more sensitive to external stimulation, even female extrotims compared to male introtims. IP females would be the most sensitive to external stimulation, especially SEI and ILI.

    IP is more like "gelatine", and IJ is more like "stone".

    2. Process/Result

    LII is result, and ILI is process. ILI is more "submitting" to environment, with more "social" actions as LII is more "reacting" to it, with more "natural" actions. With some training it's not that hard to distinguish Process/Result.

    3. Interrogative/Declarative

    LII is interrogative, and ILI is declarative. A LII would seem more inquisitive than a ILI. I typed a girl ILI, but when I realised she seemed VERY inquisitive, I retyped her SLI.

    4. Order of jungian functions

    LII's, although they seem very cold, like ILI's, they (LII's) seem slighty more sociable than ILI's.

    ILI is intuitive-logical-sensory-ethical, as a LII is logical-intuitive-ethical-sensory.

    5. Judging/Percieving

    Judging types are outputting types, and Percieving types are inputting types. An LII will seem more expressive than a ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    ehhh... I don't agree with ISFp (if that is in fact what I am) I enjoy walks in nature just to gell out and meld into it. It's not so much about fun (although that is a part of it) it's more about attaining a sense of tranquility, peace, and harmony. I actually find other people to be a bit of a distraction in those situations.
    Good point...I knew that people who are actually those types could elaborate further.

    @Diana...Are you saying you're an ISFp too?

    I wasn't sure what type you consider yourself as. I thought you said you were ISFj once, but maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.
    Oh no! I'm not ISFp! And no, you're not confusing me with anyone else, I did say that I was likely ISFj - Fi subtype, quite close to INFj Fi subtype.
    Ah, so that seems to blow my description of why ISFj and ISFp are different in their appreciation of nature. It seems as if you and Bionicgoat agree too much....where's the difference? There must be some.

    Actually, when you say you're close to INFj, that makes sense; you seem to write a bit like an INF type....very good writing by the way.

    Perhaps as an Fi subtype, you're a bit more mixed in your preference between Se and Si?

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc

    I can't say whether or not I agree, that seems pretty vague to me, here is a simpler and more serious comparison :

    Theoretically, there are differences and similarities on :

    - Traits (Jung's and Reinin's)
    - Quaternions (groups of 4 types)
    - TIM structure

    Most notable are :
    Uh oh...I see this developing into another thread on explaining the difference between ILI and LII.
    What I wanted was to explore the difference between quasi identicals when they engage in similar behaviors. It's a different tack. You can say that yes, ILI has this dichotomy and LII has that one, etc., but I was hoping for focusing on a somewhat different way of looking at it. Clearly, quasi identical types do often engage in similar behaviors, and so it's interesting to look at what is different in those instances.

    LII is IJ, which is the strong-balanced-inert temperament.
    ILI is IP, which is the weak temperament.
    Who wouldn't want to be strong and balanced?

    IJ is more able to endure stimulation than IP. I often observed IP females reacting to over-stimulation... Females are actually more sensitive to external stimulation, even female extrotims compared to male introtims. IP females would be the most sensitive to external stimulation, especially SEI and ILI.
    Not quite sure what you mean here.

    LII is result, and ILI is process.
    Clearly that's so, if one believes in the whole Reinin thing....but what does this have to do with it?:

    ILI is more "submitting" to environment, with more "social" actions as LII is more "reacting" to it, with more "natural" actions.
    I think you're suggesting that ILI does whatever is natural and needed without caring what other people think, like, for example, maybe wearing socks as gloves if it's cold and there are no gloves around, whereas ILI does what's socially acceptable and wants others to do the same. (?) I see that as fitting one interpretation of Socionics (not the one I favor); but nevertheless, what does that have to do with process vs. result?

    3. Interrogative/Declarative

    LII is interrogative, and ILI is declarative. A LII would seem more inquisitive than a ILI. I typed a girl ILI, but when I realised she seemed VERY inquisitive, I retyped her SLI.
    That's why Socionics always seems so messed up. So, you think this person is an ITp, but she seems very inquisitive, curious, speculative, or whatever, and so that makes you decide S > N, because of the Reinin stuff.

    Judging types are outputting types, and Percieving types are inputting types. An LII will seem more expressive than a ILI.
    I think you've been writing about that a bit...that rationals are outputting and irrationals are inputting. Where do you get that stuff?
    And what does that have to do with being expressive, except that LII has Fe as a quadra value?

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    well I think the difference between both of our posts (me and Diana's) was that she seemed to be more social oriented by sometimes getting a lonely feeling when she's all "one with nature", if not lonely then at least wanting to share it with another person/others. I'd rather be alone and probably would never think "I wish I could be sharing this with Betty" or whatever. I'm not really into the standing in the face of a tornado thing that she described. I do like going out like to a covered patio or something and enjoying the sounds and stuff of a heavy rain but I don't put myself into the elements. If it was thundering and lightning I'd be anxious about it and constantly stresssing and worrying a little about it in the back of my head. That would ruin my communing with nature and make me just go back inside and watch some TV or something where it's calm.

    Also for me another person breaks or hinders my "commune with nature" function to where they end up just taking the focus away from the calming enviornment. I can't really do both at once.

    One last thing... even though I might sound like I prefer "commune with nature" to "commune with person" I don't. They're both totally different enjoyable, fun things I like to do. I wouldn't blow somebody off or say "nah I kinda want to go on a walk alone" to anybody that wanted to come along.


    I'm really not to sure if this stuff is or would be type/funtion related or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    well I think the difference between both of our posts (me and Diana's) was that she seemed to be more social oriented by sometimes getting a lonely feeling when she's all "one with nature", if not lonely then at least wanting to share it with another person/others. I'd rather be alone and probably would never think "I wish I could be sharing this with Betty" or whatever. I'm not really into the standing in the face of a tornado thing that she described. I do like going out like to a covered patio or something and enjoying the sounds and stuff of a heavy rain but I don't put myself into the elements. If it was thundering and lightning I'd be anxious about it and constantly stresssing and worrying a little about it in the back of my head. That would ruin my communing with nature and make me just go back inside and watch some TV or something where it's calm.

    Also for me another person breaks or hinders my "commune with nature" function to where they end up just taking the focus away from the calming enviornment. I can't really do both at once.

    One last thing... even though I might sound like I prefer "commune with nature" to "commune with person" I don't. They're both totally different enjoyable, fun things I like to do. I wouldn't blow somebody off or say "nah I kinda want to go on a walk alone" to anybody that wanted to come along.


    I'm really not to sure if this stuff is or would be type/funtion related or not.
    Yeah, this is interesting. It's hard 'cause a lot of stuff may not be type related. I've had periods when I just wanted to walk alone, and other times where I was alone and wanted to share the experience of nature around me with someone; it had more to do with circumstances or phases in my life.

    But when I reread the descriptions, I can see how Diana's description may involve more Fi...the idea of "appreciating" what's around one, whereas your description is more of a "let's be down to earth and enjoy the simple things of life" response. Possibly, Diana's appreciation of experiencing the extreme things in nature...rain storms, snow storms, etc. ....is related to Se...that is, a bit of an emphasis on adventure? A bit of Ni seems to come across as well, since her description seems full of associations.

    I think this shows though how subtle these distinctions can be; at first sight, a person might look at Diana's description of appreciating the beauty all around, etc., as being Si, as that's how people have been trained to think....yet that emphasis on appreciation may reflect more Fi after all.

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    Yeah IJ stone, their butt is usually firmer, I agree
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Thanks. One poster who expresses herself in a similar manner to me is Minde, who is an INFj.
    Yes, I think I remember one of her posts that was similar in style.

    Well, this is good...This is exactly what I was hoping for...people who are quasi identicals (at least according to their perceived types) discussing their differences when engaging in similar activities.

    For those who accept me as ILI and Macintruc as LII, I wonder if our discussion is yet another example. Mac keeps "spitting out" theory, saying in effect "here's the way it is" and "the theory says this, so what's your problem?"...and I'm trying to be more experiential and to avoid theoretical assumptions, and rather focus my efforts on coming up with a new way for investigating the issues.

    It's curious if you compare what Mac says (LIIs being inquisitive and ILIs not being so) with his actions (declaring the way it is, and so forth). It seems to me that the Reinin declarer/asker dichotomy is either wrong or greatly misunderstood; most people who seem to be ILIs also seem very inquisitive, curious, and good at asking very focused and appropriate questions. Sometimes I wonder why people here think that Reinin is so great (...he said, seeking to incite some controversy and excitement again, or just a little...).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Sometimes I wonder why people here think that Reinin is so great (...he said, seeking to incite some controversy and excitement again, or just a little...).
    I'm no fan of Reinin... to me it's all just so much mumbo jumbo that people like to quote. My brain doesn't like analysing people on those terms and I pretty much think it's mostly bunk when it comes down to it.

    my apeal to authority:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    It is sorry for me to say, but the criterion Static-Dynamic, as well as other so-called Reinin's criteria, is just one of myths of the early socionics.
    At that time socionics was made by enthusiasts only, and many "discoveries" have been made just by the force of a quill, or by observation of very small statistics (10, 12, 15 people). In such conditions, people saw some "ghosts" which they perceived as reality and even invented some logical schemes to explain them.

    Descriptions of these so-called Reinin's criteria are much contradictory. First and foremost, each of them contradicts to descriptions of particular types.

    And finally, big statistics does not confirm but rather disapproves the existence of these reinin's criteria, including this one, Static-Dynamic.
    I agree with this. despite all the pretty maths, modeling, and big words Reinin enthuesiasts tend towards it just doesn't pan out like it's supposed to in real life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Sometimes I wonder why people here think that Reinin is so great (...he said, seeking to incite some controversy and excitement again, or just a little...).
    I'm no fan of Reinin... to me it's all just so much mumbo jumbo that people like to quote. My brain doesn't like analysing people on those terms and I pretty much think it's mostly bunk when it comes down to it.

    my apeal to authority:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dmitri Lytov
    It is sorry for me to say, but the criterion Static-Dynamic, as well as other so-called Reinin's criteria, is just one of myths of the early socionics.
    At that time socionics was made by enthusiasts only, and many "discoveries" have been made just by the force of a quill, or by observation of very small statistics (10, 12, 15 people). In such conditions, people saw some "ghosts" which they perceived as reality and even invented some logical schemes to explain them.

    Descriptions of these so-called Reinin's criteria are much contradictory. First and foremost, each of them contradicts to descriptions of particular types.

    And finally, big statistics does not confirm but rather disapproves the existence of these reinin's criteria, including this one, Static-Dynamic.
    I agree with this. despite all the pretty maths, modeling, and big words Reinin enthuesiasts tend towards it just doesn't pan out like it's supposed to in real life.
    I agree...Where did you get that quote from Dmitri? That's a good one.

    I still do think the idea of finding commonalities in different subsets of the quadra is worthwhile; it's just that people assume Reinin's descriptions are correct, and they're not necessarily, for the very reasons Dmitri points out.

    Incidentally, most LIIs on the forum seem "declarative" to me. Labcoat is the main exception; he seems inquisitive. Maybe it's a subtype issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I agree...Where did you get that quote from Dmitri? That's a good one.
    http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...ighlight=sorry

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    Diana and Bg's posts are a very good demonstration of the difference between Fi & Fe, and Si & Se.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Incidentally, most LIIs on the forum seem "declarative" to me. Labcoat is the main exception; he seems inquisitive. Maybe it's a subtype issue.
    I think it's easier to see in real life, you know what I mean?

    1. That was an example of me being a Questioner.
    2. It's sooo easy to edit out all that "I think" and "??" stuff in writing. Ti almost compels me to do it.

    The Questioner/Declarer difference can be very clear at times.


    Jonathan, I have to say your tendency of creating a new thread simply to verify progress in your own understanding of socionics is a little annoying. There are plenty of resources online, and I REALLY think it's obvious you haven't adequately applied socionics in your real life.

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    Static-dynamic is a structurally real part of the socionics system. You can't remove it without demolishing the model as a whole.

    Whatever Dmitri Lytov meant to be saying, he is not making any sense the way he puts it.

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    I can understand disagreeing with it but what he said makes perfect sense (despite a bit of awkward non-native English speaker phrasing) IMO- in practice the Reinin dichotomies lend themselves more to conformation bias than to anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    I agree...Where did you get that quote from Dmitri? That's a good one.
    http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...ighlight=sorry
    Gee, that was an interesting thread. Too bad it didn't go any further than it did. If I had to pick what Reinin dichotomies I'm most skeptical of, I wouldn't have picked on static/dynamic. As Labcoat has pointed out, that terminology comes right out of Augusta's information elements model.

    Dmitri's argument that there's nothing that clearly unites Ej/Ip and Ep/Ij doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, dynamic types all use extraverted judging functions, and static types all use introverted judging functions. However, I agree with his challenge: Show convincingly what that means in terms of behavior.

    And that's where Reinin tends to fall short; on the basis of a small sample of data, he came up with rather vague descriptions of the dichotomies that I think people accept too uncritically. In my view, if one cannot explain why the behaviors in the derivative dichotomies come from the main dichotomies...and back it up with sufficient observations...one should be highly skeptical of the derivative dichotomies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Dmitri's argument that there's nothing that clearly unites Ej/Ip and Ep/Ij doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, dynamic types all use extraverted judging functions, and static types all use introverted judging functions. However, I agree with his challenge: Show convincingly what that means in terms of behavior.
    That's when I have to be Te and say that an IJ has EP "moments" or "phases" and vice-versa, the same for EJ and IP; but, say, the IJ's IP or EJ moments are much rarer. This is what I have observed and is consistent with my own interpretation that static/dynamic + rational/irrational = temperaments, but in order to "show convincingly" I'd have to get into specific examples of a lot of people.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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