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Thread: ISTp/ENFp duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

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    Default ISTp/ENFp duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

    The Craftsman is the ISTp and The Psychologist is the ENFp.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Craftsman easily detects smallest deviations from esthetic standards in the surrounding world; such disharmony makes him feel distressed, awakes in him a feeling of discomfort, the desire to improve the situation, to perfect what he achieved or actually possesses – not only in the material world, but in his intellectual and spiritual development as well. This is why The Craftsman is exigent to himself and often also to the others. He likes nothing drab, trite and banal, strives for improvement of his own, his friends and family, beginning from the appearance and health, and up to the mental development. He is very curious, has wide range of interests, often he is not self-confident because of increased self-criticism. He needs praise of his capabilities, encouragement of his efforts.

    The Psychologist is just the kind of person who notices talents of the others, inspires them with belief in their capabilities, readily tells compliments. He notices even hidden capabilities and willingly encourages their development. This in turn very much commands respect of The Craftsman, who does not feel bored with such a partner. The Psychologist is useful to him also because he easily finds solutions to difficult situations, which would otherwise make The Craftsman feel depressed. Being thankful for that, The Craftsman takes care of the mental and external comfort of the one solving his internal problems.

    The Psychologist very much needs a caring partner and finds relaxation for his emotional and restless soul in the 'quiet haven' of a friend, who is constant in his words and deeds, reliable and faithful. The Craftsman creates convenience and comfort for The Psychologist, who is not much adapted to the real life, thus giving him the opportunity to focus on spiritual and intellectual values, generate new ideas, which will bring the taste of novelty into their common affairs.

    Everyday chores are usually undertaken by The Craftsman, who believes he can do them better. The Psychologist takes initiative in relations, can unite people around himself, and becomes the 'life of the party'. He gains people's favor, willingly advises on solving personal problems. He is a subtle psychologist, who understands well hidden motives of people. He emotionally demonstrates his attitude towards people; his sincerity, warmth and ingenuousness make others forgive his excessive straightforwardness and hot temper. He corrects The Craftsman's ethical mistakes, and often even his own, since he is not rancorous and likes people very much. His trustfulness disarms the incredulous Craftsman, and emotionality softens his more cold-tempered and reserved partner.

    The Craftsman is reticent enough and does not like to demonstrate his feelings. He can put a distance in communication, seems to be arrogant and non-sociable. But in the very depths of his soul he is thankful to the person who takes responsibility for ethical issues on himself. He likes The Psychologist's spirit of trust, whose permanent optimism, capability of foreseeing the future and perspectives of various undertakings, finding ways out of any problems. The Psychologist raises The Craftsman's confidence of the future, decrease his skepticism and mistrust towards everything new, not well known or not proven by practice. In addition, The Craftsman is sometimes excessively nervous and mistrustful; he exaggerates possible dangers not to mention real ones. But The Psychologist, who lives more in the future than in the present, 'calculates' everything in advance and in such moments call for caution, and at the same time calms down his partner when an alarm is false.

    The Craftsman is very technological and practical. He can work quickly and is well organized. He plans all stages of his work in advance, acquires all the necessary things in advance. He is enduring in perfecting details of his work, can separate important things from trifles, which is not an easy task for The Psychologist. The Psychologist's efficiency of working is high only in critical situations, while routine and monotonous, non-creative work deteriorates his vital tonus, being a source of boredom for this restless creative personality. The Psychologist gladly accepts a role of 'second' or 'assistant', which suits The Craftsman's commanding nature. The Craftsman does not like when others impose on him other ways of doing things than he would prefer. He is strives for real benefit and profit, unlike altruistic Psychologist, and this contributes to growth of material welfare of this dual pair.

    The Psychologist needs a partner indulgent enough to his weak points: negligence at work, lack of consideration to rules, norms and hierarchy, outbursts of non-motivated aggression. The Craftsman is indulgent to such, sometimes they even amuse him. He likes the independent nature of The Psychologist, which does not encroach on his own independence.

    The characteristic features of this dual pair are the independence from each other, as well as from others, harmony of relations and a restless spirit of creativity and self-development.
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    Thanks Joy. I was trying to find these descriptions.
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    np

    Does this sound like your ideal relationship?
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    Everytime I read one of these kindas of descriptions I get amazed at certain details they point out that I didn't think of but are so true. Now if only w could find something on STARTING the Dual relations between ENFps and ISTps, as, with any other Dual pair, that is usually the hardest step.
    ENFp

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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoxOfxSin
    Everytime I read one of these kindas of descriptions I get amazed at certain details they point out that I didn't think of but are so true. Now if only w could find something on STARTING the Dual relations between ENFps and ISTps, as, with any other Dual pair, that is usually the hardest step.
    Yes, I'll second that!
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels
    Quote Originally Posted by TangoxOfxSin
    Everytime I read one of these kindas of descriptions I get amazed at certain details they point out that I didn't think of but are so true. Now if only w could find something on STARTING the Dual relations between ENFps and ISTps, as, with any other Dual pair, that is usually the hardest step.
    Yes, I'll second that!
    werd, let me know when you find the estj/infj one too...lol :wink:

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    I hate reading descriptions like these. I think they breed misconceptions unless you actually experience duality. It might be true word for word, but it isn't what you experience so the small details that mean everything are missed.

    Edit: Also it makes you focus on the ideal and not the reality. Therefore making you misunderstand the point worse.

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    Except for the few I've noticed tend to take this theory a little too far for my tastes, I see descriptions like these as very broad. I'm currently exploring this duality and the last thing I'm thinking about when we're together is fulfilling this description or anything. This is a theory on WHY this pairing works together, not how they should be going about their lives with each other.
    ENFp

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    Except for the few I've noticed tend to take this theory a little too far for my tastes, I see descriptions like these as very broad.
    This description focuses on small details that aren't relevant to all SLIs or IEEs. Like the vast majority of descriptions. Breadth of the description is irrelevant anyway getting it right is relevant.

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    "Getting it right"? It's a psychological theory, humans are way too complex for any of this to be 100% right. There are too many things one person alone can experience with any other person. It's hard to track down random couples and interrogate them to figure out what kind of relation they are and how the relationship work when so few people know about this theory and commune to talk about it. Sure, I don't think this description is the best one out there, but then again, I don't see many descriptions specifically for certain relations without it being put through a translator. Looking at this, I see it as fine as it sounds like a different take from all the more technical russian translated ones. I might be missing your point, but from what you said, I don't see how this is siting details not relevant to these types? Maybe if you could be more specific or proactive it could help make better ones.
    ENFp

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    I don't know, it sounds pretty accurate to me.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoxOfxSin
    "Getting it right"? It's a psychological theory, humans are way too complex for any of this to be 100% right. There are too many things one person alone can experience with any other person.
    I mean it doesn't correlate the right points to give you a proper view of how things are or can be. It just gives you detail which is too specific to certain types of IEEs and SLIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    I don't know, it sounds pretty accurate to me.
    Well it doesn't to me.

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    What specifically don't you agree with?
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    I don't know IEEs well enough to describe them, so this is only from the SLI side.

    The Craftsman easily detects smallest deviations from esthetic standards in the surrounding world; such disharmony makes him feel distressed, awakes in him a feeling of discomfort, the desire to improve the situation, to perfect what he achieved or actually possesses – not only in the material world, but in his intellectual and spiritual development as well.(No, over the top)This is why The Craftsman is exigent to himself and often also to the others. He likes nothing drab, trite and banal, strives for improvement of his own, his friends and family, beginning from the appearance and health (I know SLI s who eat bad, do no exercise, smoke, drink and do drugs, this is crap), and up to the mental development. He is very curious, has wide range of interests, often he is not self-confident because of increased self-criticism. He needs praise of his capabilities, encouragement of his efforts.

    The Psychologist is just the kind of person who notices talents of the others, inspires them with belief in their capabilities, readily tells compliments. He notices even hidden capabilities and willingly encourages their development. This in turn very much commands respect of The Craftsman, who does not feel bored with such a partner.(respect for what?) The Psychologist is useful to him also because he easily finds solutions to difficult situations, which would otherwise make The Craftsman feel depressed. (Depressed? Over the top, SLI too dependent on IEE emotionally. Somehow SLIs manage to struggle along without their duals.)Being thankful for that, The Craftsman takes care of the mental and external comfort of the one solving his internal problems. (in my case I do it anyway, pretty much in response to positive relations with anyone)

    The Psychologist very much needs a caring partner and finds relaxation for his emotional and restless soul in the 'quiet haven' of a friend, who is constant in his words and deeds, reliable(constant, reliable and faithful? All SLIs?) and faithful. The Craftsman creates convenience and comfort for The Psychologist, who is not much adapted to the real life, thus giving him the opportunity to focus on spiritual and intellectual values, generate new ideas, which will bring the taste of novelty into their common affairs.

    Everyday chores are usually undertaken by The Craftsman, who believes he can do them better. The Psychologist takes initiative in relations, can unite people around himself, and becomes the 'life of the party'. He gains people's favor, willingly advises on solving personal problems. He is a subtle psychologist, who understands well hidden motives of people. He emotionally demonstrates his attitude towards people; his sincerity, warmth and ingenuousness make others forgive his excessive straightforwardness and hot temper. He corrects The Craftsman's ethical mistakes, and often even his own, since he is not rancorous and likes people very much. His trustfulness disarms the incredulous Craftsman, and emotionality softens his more cold-tempered and reserved partner.

    The Craftsman is reticent enough and does not like to demonstrate his feelings. He can put a distance in communication, seems to be arrogant and non-sociable. But in the very depths of his soul he is thankful to the person who takes responsibility for ethical issues on himself. He likes The Psychologist's spirit of trust (Don't trust them as much as anyone else), whose permanent optimism, capability of foreseeing the future and perspectives of various undertakings, finding ways out of any problems. The Psychologist raises The Craftsman's confidence of the future, decrease his skepticism and mistrust towards everything new, not well known or not proven by practice. In addition, The Craftsman is sometimes excessively nervous and mistrustful; he exaggerates possible dangers not to mention real ones.(Dangers about somethings and none about others) But The Psychologist, who lives more in the future than in the present, 'calculates' everything in advance and in such moments call for caution, and at the same time calms down his partner when an alarm is false.

    The Craftsman is very technological and practical. He can work quickly and is well organized.(not all SLIs) He plans all stages of his work in advance, acquires all the necessary things in advance. He is enduring in perfecting details of his work(not all SLIs) , can separate important things from trifles, which is not an easy task for The Psychologist. The Psychologist's efficiency of working is high only in critical situations, while routine and monotonous, non-creative work deteriorates his vital tonus, being a source of boredom for this restless creative personality. The Psychologist gladly accepts a role of 'second' or 'assistant', which suits The Craftsman's commanding nature. The Craftsman does not like when others impose on him other ways of doing things than he would prefer. He is strives for real benefit and profit, unlike altruistic Psychologist, and this contributes to growth of material welfare of this dual pair.

    The Psychologist needs a partner indulgent enough to his weak points: negligence at work, lack of consideration to rules, norms and hierarchy, outbursts of non-motivated aggression. The Craftsman is indulgent to such, sometimes they even amuse him. He likes the independent nature of The Psychologist, which does not encroach on his own independence.

    The characteristic features of this dual pair are the independence from each other, as well as from others, harmony of relations and a restless spirit of creativity and self-development.
    So on the SLI side, they have missed out parts which are relevant to me and SLIs I have known. And there are other SLIs out there that probably won't agree with this fully(if I don't), so it is not accurate. I'm sure the it's the same for the IEE description.

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    This is originally from a Russian translation so some of your complaints might be partially translation issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    I don't know IEEs well enough to describe them, so this is only from the SLI side.

    The Craftsman easily detects smallest deviations from esthetic standards in the surrounding world; such disharmony makes him feel distressed, awakes in him a feeling of discomfort, the desire to improve the situation, to perfect what he achieved or actually possesses – not only in the material world, but in his intellectual and spiritual development as well.(No, over the top) I think this is intended to be a general concept rather than specific. It sounds over the top if you take it as something very specific but is generally true - the language is a bit flowery though. This is why The Craftsman is exigent to himself and often also to the others. He likes nothing drab, trite and banal, strives for improvement of his own, his friends and family, beginning from the appearance and health (I know SLI s who eat bad, do no exercise, smoke, drink and do drugs, this is crap) LOL yes that's true - my husband is an example of some of that - but he does strive for improvement in those areas. A lot of SLIs I've known have had bigger issues with vices in their youth and then, as they get older, start to become more concerned about it. , and up to the mental development. He is very curious, has wide range of interests, often he is not self-confident because of increased self-criticism. He needs praise of his capabilities, encouragement of his efforts.

    The Psychologist is just the kind of person who notices talents of the others, inspires them with belief in their capabilities, readily tells compliments. He notices even hidden capabilities and willingly encourages their development. This in turn very much commands respect of The Craftsman, who does not feel bored with such a partner.(respect for what?) This might be a translation issue - maybe "appreciation" would be better. The Psychologist is useful to him also because he easily finds solutions to difficult situations, which would otherwise make The Craftsman feel depressed. (Depressed? Over the top, SLI too dependent on IEE emotionally. Somehow SLIs manage to struggle along without their duals.) My husband had issues with depression but that isn't necessarily true for all SLIs. Still, you're getting hung up on that specific word but ignoring the overall idea. SLIs find those situations difficult and it creates negative feelings in him/her. "Depression" is a loaded term, but the general idea is pretty accurate in my opinion. Being thankful for that, The Craftsman takes care of the mental and external comfort of the one solving his internal problems. (in my case I do it anyway, pretty much in response to positive relations with anyone) Yes, that's just the point - you do it naturally and it is greatly appreciated by us.

    The Psychologist very much needs a caring partner and finds relaxation for his emotional and restless soul in the 'quiet haven' of a friend, who is constant in his words and deeds, reliable(constant, reliable and faithful? All SLIs?) It feels that way to us - we are flighty and have trouble keeping our heads focuses, but SLIs do that pretty naturally. At least compared to IEEs. Faithful? They aren't necessarily talking about sexually - just that you're always there when we need you. and faithful. The Craftsman creates convenience and comfort for The Psychologist, who is not much adapted to the real life, thus giving him the opportunity to focus on spiritual and intellectual values, generate new ideas, which will bring the taste of novelty into their common affairs.

    Everyday chores are usually undertaken by The Craftsman, who believes he can do them better. The Psychologist takes initiative in relations, can unite people around himself, and becomes the 'life of the party'. He gains people's favor, willingly advises on solving personal problems. He is a subtle psychologist, who understands well hidden motives of people. He emotionally demonstrates his attitude towards people; his sincerity, warmth and ingenuousness make others forgive his excessive straightforwardness and hot temper. He corrects The Craftsman's ethical mistakes, and often even his own, since he is not rancorous and likes people very much. His trustfulness disarms the incredulous Craftsman, and emotionality softens his more cold-tempered and reserved partner.

    The Craftsman is reticent enough and does not like to demonstrate his feelings. He can put a distance in communication, seems to be arrogant and non-sociable. But in the very depths of his soul he is thankful to the person who takes responsibility for ethical issues on himself. He likes The Psychologist's spirit of trust (Don't trust them as much as anyone else) This is saying that IEEs are naturally trustful and that SLIs generally like that, not that SLIs are., whose permanent optimism, capability of foreseeing the future and perspectives of various undertakings, finding ways out of any problems. The Psychologist raises The Craftsman's confidence of the future, decrease his skepticism and mistrust towards everything new, not well known or not proven by practice. In addition, The Craftsman is sometimes excessively nervous and mistrustful; he exaggerates possible dangers not to mention real ones.(Dangers about somethings and none about others) I'm not sure just what you're getting at here. But The Psychologist, who lives more in the future than in the present, 'calculates' everything in advance and in such moments call for caution, and at the same time calms down his partner when an alarm is false.

    The Craftsman is very technological and practical. He can work quickly and is well organized.(not all SLIs) I think this should be considered generally and in comparison to other types. He plans all stages of his work in advance, acquires all the necessary things in advance. He is enduring in perfecting details of his work(not all SLIs) Again, generally and in comparison to other types - and in particular in comparison to IEEs - it's a list of things IEEs appreciate and you might not really see it in yourself even if you possess those traits in comparison to IEEs, but IEEs generally appreciate this in SLIs , can separate important things from trifles, which is not an easy task for The Psychologist. The Psychologist's efficiency of working is high only in critical situations, while routine and monotonous, non-creative work deteriorates his vital tonus, being a source of boredom for this restless creative personality. The Psychologist gladly accepts a role of 'second' or 'assistant', which suits The Craftsman's commanding nature. The Craftsman does not like when others impose on him other ways of doing things than he would prefer. He is strives for real benefit and profit, unlike altruistic Psychologist, and this contributes to growth of material welfare of this dual pair.

    The Psychologist needs a partner indulgent enough to his weak points: negligence at work, lack of consideration to rules, norms and hierarchy, outbursts of non-motivated aggression. The Craftsman is indulgent to such, sometimes they even amuse him. He likes the independent nature of The Psychologist, which does not encroach on his own independence.

    The characteristic features of this dual pair are the independence from each other, as well as from others, harmony of relations and a restless spirit of creativity and self-development.
    So on the SLI side, they have missed out parts which are relevant to me and SLIs I have known. And there are other SLIs out there that probably won't agree with this fully(if I don't), so it is not accurate. I'm sure the it's the same for the IEE description.
    I think it's generally pretty accurate. And I don't think you're really reading it in context. It's about how IEEs see SLIs and what IEEs appreciate in SLIs (and vice versa) - it isn't meant to be a specific list of type characteristics. Even if you aren't handy with tools, chances are you are handier than an IEE, and the IEE will appreciate that.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enjio
    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    So on the SLI side, they have missed out parts which are relevant to me and SLIs I have known. And there are other SLIs out there that probably won't agree with this fully(if I don't), so it is not accurate. I'm sure the it's the same for the IEE description.
    It's not accurate because you don't agree with it fully? Sorry to tell ya, but the world doesn't revolve around you. For the sake of pushing buttons, let's say that it's a spot-on, 100% description of me. How would you respond then?
    I'm a SLI and I don't believe its not a accurate description. Therefore it's not a accurate description. And yes, it should evolve around me, because it's claiming that is how I act.

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    I think it's generally pretty accurate. And I don't think you're really reading it in context. It's about how IEEs see SLIs and what IEEs appreciate in SLIs (and vice versa) - it isn't meant to be a specific list of type characteristics. Even if you aren't handy with tools, chances are you are handier than an IEE, and the IEE will appreciate that.
    The list of specific characteristics are shown as what IEEs appreciate about SLIs, even if they are inaccurate.
    It creates wrong impressions, which people then use to judge themselves, relationships and others. Further messing with their understanding of socionics.

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    Have you ever experienced duality electric?
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjio
    Lets say this was the description:
    Boys like girls.

    Using your logic
    "I'm a [boy] and I don't believe its not a accurate description. Therefore it's not a accurate description. And yes, it [the world] should [r]evolve around me, because it's claiming that is how I act."

    It doesn't mean it's not accurate... just that you're gay
    Get what I'm saying?
    That isn't my logic. Being a SLI means you must follow the SLI description. Being a boy doesn't mean you have to fancy girls.

    I get what you're saying, but you're wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    Being a SLI means you must follow the SLI description.
    wtf are you talking about? No one matches their type's descriptions 100%
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    Being a SLI means you must follow the SLI description.
    wtf are you talking about? No one matches their type's descriptions 100%
    That's my point, that's why I'm saying we shouldn't use them much and base our impressions on meeting people of different types.

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    How will you know what types those people are?
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    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    Being a SLI means you must follow the SLI description.
    wtf are you talking about? No one matches their type's descriptions 100%
    That's my point, that's why I'm saying we shouldn't use them much and base our impressions on meeting people of different types.
    I didn't say we shouldn't use them at all.

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    I could put it into fewer words.

    ISTp are masters of common sense, a walking compendium of proven tactics to solve real world problems. Without such solid base the ENFp can feel lost and overwhelmed by the complexity of real life.

    ENFp is a psychological survivor, a person capable of standing the most bizarre situations without permanent mental scars. Without such solid base the ISTp can fall into negative tendencies and let them to worsen until they are irreversible and become destructive.

    In this duality, ISTp teaches the ENFp to value existing knowledge, the importance of the present implications of actions, the aesthetic qualities of things. The ENFp teaches the ISTp the importance of meaning behind our actions but, above all, the importance of intuition.

    Among, of course, many, may other things.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    electric I agree with you. Ya this may match from the ENFp's perspective. Not all SLIs are organized... Perhaps in our work yes.

    The description is correct to a point, but NO way is it completely accurate for us!

    I have experienced duality... This is a good summary but it just touches the surface of why the craftsman works with the psychologist.

    We are attracted to the comfort and understanding they provide. They correct our ethical mistakes yes.

    They like attention and we give it to them. In return, they let us love them. They make us feel the most comfortable, and able to speak confidently.

    I cant peg it right now its just not complete for the SLI point of view its hard to explain lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcEPiCk
    electric I agree with you. Ya this may match from the ENFp's perspective. Not all SLIs are organized... Perhaps in our work yes.

    The description is correct to a point, but NO way is it completely accurate for us!

    I have experienced duality... This is a good summary but it just touches the surface of why the craftsman works with the psychologist.

    We are attracted to the comfort and understanding they provide. They correct our ethical mistakes yes.

    They like attention and we give it to them. In return, they let us love them. They make us feel the most comfortable, and able to speak confidently.

    I cant peg it right now its just not complete for the SLI point of view its hard to explain lol
    I had a reply earlier I decided to put a hold on because I got too flustered with how electric worded their's, but I think I got more from this than what he said. I guess I just assumed when people looked at descriptions like this they assumed it wasn't some set in stone gospel or whatever. But maybe being an ENFp I didn't realize what could possibly be missing from the ISTp side. At the same time, taking this as something from the surface, I would say, being involved in this duality at the moment, that there is stuff missing from the ENFp side as well.
    ENFp

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    There is a lot of unspoken shit that goes on in the ENFp/ISTp duality. I feel like ENFps activate me, give me a reason to go hit the gym, etc.

    They also make me feel like maintaining or striving towards better goals.

    I guess thats the improvement part though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcEPiCk
    There is a lot of unspoken shit that goes on in the ENFp/ISTp duality. I feel like ENFps activate me, give me a reason to go hit the gym, etc.

    They also make me feel like maintaining or striving towards better goals.

    I guess thats the improvement part though.
    I've seen somewhere written that Fi provides a motivation for Te types to actually do something. Without it, a Te type can find himself thinking "Why in hell am I working/doing things for?".
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I've seen somewhere written that Fi provides a motivation for Te types to actually do something. Without it, a Te type can find himself thinking "Why in hell am I working/doing things for?".
    That's good, I think it's accurate.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    but ya overall I gotta accept this as being the closest description ive seen yet.

    i imagine its difficult to try to explain
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    Is this an example of SLI - IEE relations? Or perhaps SEI - ILE? It strikes me as a - type of codependency, care giving, innocent and infantile.

    [spoil:b1dc3677e7][/spoil:b1dc3677e7]

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    Default Re: ISTp/ENFp duality description

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    The Craftsman is the ISTp and The Psychologist is the ENFp.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Psychologist needs a partner indulgent enough to his weak points: negligence at work, lack of consideration to rules, norms and hierarchy, outbursts of non-motivated aggression. The Craftsman is indulgent to such, sometimes they even amuse him. He likes the independent nature of The Psychologist, which does not encroach on his own independence.
    Yeah this last point makes sense. My ENFp sister drives me crazy with her failings at home to do the basic chores around the house. This negligence really annoys me and I take it personally because it seems as if she just doesn't care about mum. Her thought process must be something like "oh well, if I don't do it somebody else will." But if nobody else did it, it wouldn't be done. She doesn't visit my grandfather either. When my mum suggests her to do it she says always has some excuse, that has to do with her. She doesn't consider others. I can see how she'd get along with an ISTp.

    A friend back in high school was ISTp. I never understood his recklessness disregard for school rules. But it wasn't just reckless disregard, it was determined reckless disregard. He was determined to break the rules. Determined to show off his lack of respect to the teachers. I never understood this, or the motivation for such behaviour.

    I guess I just can't relate to either type.
    ISTj.

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    Default Re: ISTp/ENFp duality description

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    The Craftsman is the ISTp and The Psychologist is the ENFp.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Psychologist needs a partner indulgent enough to his weak points: negligence at work, lack of consideration to rules, norms and hierarchy, outbursts of non-motivated aggression. The Craftsman is indulgent to such, sometimes they even amuse him. He likes the independent nature of The Psychologist, which does not encroach on his own independence.
    Yeah this last point makes sense. My ENFp sister drives me crazy with her failings at home to do the basic chores around the house. This negligence really annoys me and I take it personally because it seems as if she just doesn't care about mum. Her thought process must be something like "oh well, if I don't do it somebody else will." But if nobody else did it, it wouldn't be done. She doesn't visit my grandfather either. When my mum suggests her to do it she says always has some excuse, that has to do with her. She doesn't consider others. I can see how she'd get along with an ISTp.

    A friend back in high school was ISTp. I never understood his recklessness disregard for school rules. But it wasn't just reckless disregard, it was determined reckless disregard. He was determined to break the rules. Determined to show off his lack of respect to the teachers. I never understood this, or the motivation for such behaviour.

    I guess I just can't relate to either type.
    Haha Ribbed. Function wise you have a lot more Se than your sister. Its very hard for ENFp's do to chores as they dont have the motivation to start. Too many other things that interest them. The way i look at it is the ISTj does practical housework and the ENFp does constant emotional work. Emotional work can be draining trust me.

    If it makes you feel any better, i cant relate to my ISTj's dads grumpy attitude. Hes constantly mad. Even spilling water on the ground is a disaster and the end of the world. Pretty depressing to be around

    If you want some practical advice you might have to tell your mum to tell her she needs to help out. Call out her name and say hey X can you please help with this. Slowly work her up to it. Either that or just dont clean her room / wash her stuff so she has to do it. And make sure its your mum asking her to do it not you. If you ask her you will say it in such a way that she will get very shitty with you. She wont do it out of her own violition.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

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    Yes. Socionics goes beyond the individual and revolves more about the whole society. According to it, each type handles different kind of problems which require very specialized skill in the area.

    As an intuitor, your ENFp sister belongs to the group of intellectuals. Their role in the society is to analyze, reject and produce ideas. Everything else is extra and optional. That's something you have to keep in mind when criticizing your sister.

    It is your strength to be disciplined, to be careful with the details, to respect the rules. Such approach warrants that tasks are completed fully and with proven methods, which means efficiency. However, your strength is likely to be also your major weakness. So much emphasis on fulfilling tasks leaves you little time or even desire to question the purpose of the tasks themselves. What if what you're doing is not really necessary? What if you're doing something that is hurtful to others? You know, most totalitarian regimes are sustained by people who sticks to blindly obeying orders, without caring about the consequences and it is exactly what ENFp are good at: to voice out the absurdity of the system, to alert others from the dangers of overlooking the motivations of our actions.

    So I'm sure it looks damn weird from your perspective so much despise for rules, regulations, duties and such, but it's perfectly normal. She's performing her social role. It doesn't mean that she's always right (neglecting home duties is questionable) but that's where intertype relationships come in: she's supposed to be supported by her dual on practical stuff. ISTp wishes freedom and thus values the social role of the ENFp.

    And, if you wonder why an ISTp would like to take care of such irresponsible person, the answer would probably be "she makes me feel alive".
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    I think thats the narcissistic definition of duality. As well, ENFps have a social role besides being a rebel. They make excellent teachers, instilling good values in children. I think they encourage others to think independently, from what Ive seen they dont make too many assertions and allow each person to express his or her oppinion.

    If I was asked why I like ENFps, my reponse would be in the lines of 'it is the most comfortable'.
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    Friends and lovers are different things. That might be true for friends, but as a lover, I'm sure it's much more intense, specially for the ISTp.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    ISTPs sometimes do things intentionally to see how much affect they have on a person. Like they will allow a person to become emotionally close to them and then pull away sharply to cause the other person to react. Sometimes they will hurt themselves in order to dig at someone else. Like they may really want to see someone but when that person appears they become aloof and even rejecting to offset their own vulnerability of wanting or needing someone. I recently met a girl I believe to be ISTP. She keeps giving me mixed signals all the time. Friendly, cool, friendly, cool. Since I doubt there will ever be anything serious between us (cause she's a flake) I think I'll play along and then reverse the process. I think she's afraid if she really opened up to me she'd get attached and that would leave her vulnerable. So she has to push and pull on me to keep me at a safe distance. I have my own plans however.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Topaz
    ISTPs sometimes do things intentionally to see how much affect they have on a person. Like they will allow a person to become emotionally close to them and then pull away sharply to cause the other person to react. Sometimes they will hurt themselves in order to dig at someone else. Like they may really want to see someone but when that person appears they become aloof and even rejecting to offset their own vulnerability of wanting or needing someone. I recently met a girl I believe to be ISTP. She keeps giving me mixed signals all the time. Friendly, cool, friendly, cool. Since I doubt there will ever be anything serious between us (cause she's a flake) I think I'll play along and then reverse the process. I think she's afraid if she really opened up to me she'd get attached and that would leave her vulnerable. So she has to push and pull on me to keep me at a safe distance. I have my own plans however.
    I'm curious as to the ISTPs take on this. Is this common? Done consciously?
    I do it all the time. I thought everyone was guilty of doing this...? Maybe not. It's not something I consiously do. And if you know this girl is doing this because she's too afraid to 'be vulnerable' why play the game? You're going to hurt her even more.

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