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Thread: INTp/ESFp duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

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    Default INTp/ESFp duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

    The Critic is the INTp and The Politician is the ESFp.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Critic gives figurative descriptions of expected development of events, and such information is very interesting to The Politician, who has difficulty imagining the outcome of his actions. The Critic counsels with insight and caution, he gives detailed strategies - this is just what the super-active and impulsive Politician really lacks.

    Possessing business skills, The Critic immediately notices the best investments and critically speaks of those he considers as a waste of time and energy. In this way he saves The Politician exhaustion and disappointment –that is, if The Politician pays attention to his dual's advice, which does not always happen. But even this is good, because a more slow-moving partner might get discouraged or become complacent. By contrast, such criticizing helps The Politician to find the golden mean in his activities, to use the mean rationally and to be more scrupulous in choosing ways of achieving goals.

    Both at work and at home The Critic likes peace and harmony. He values comfort, cleanness and order. However, due to his inertia he does not always achieve what he wants. The Politician likes his thoroughness, polite manners, philosophical tranquility and economical skills.

    Since The Critic is vulnerable but not sufficiently flexible and not very diplomatic, he easily spoils his relations with the others. He does not really understand why this happens and he often falls into melancholy and sadness. He needs a cheerful partner who could easily correct his tactical mistakes and not stay resentful over trifles. The Politician will divert attention from a dangerous topic, will tell a compliment at the just the right time or make everything into a joke. The Politician prefers quick and decisive actions. He easily widens the field of activities and breaks down all barriers on the way towards his goal. He does not like covert resistance or crude orders – if he perceives them he will do just the opposite of what was desired.

    Strong and self-confident people are attractive to The Critic. Nevertheless, he simply ignores excessive pressure, as if not noticing it. Also he does not accept a challenge, will not fight and by doing this softens the force of The Politician. It awakens in The Politician the understanding that he needs to act more diplomatically, to use persuasion and not a direct attack. If he happens to be at the top of an organization, in order to keep common order he needs a well-wishing and wise partner capable of creating trustful atmosphere of communication, softening arising misunderstandings by demonstrating their relative value.

    In this way The Critic serves as a balance to his sometimes-aggressive partner. They both often quarrel with each other but soon come to agreement forgetting all hurts. The Politician demonstrates sympathy and understanding and by this relaxes The Critic. If he responds to his dual’s warnings he can demonstrate his great capacity to handle all difficulties. The Politician does not pay much attention to general regularities and trends. He dislikes clerical work and does not always know rules and instructions. Unwillingly he plans in advance. He does not like to submit to schedules and norms. The Critic helps him distribute his energy and schedules, only the most important, worthy task. He performs detailed work, up to the logical final.

    ‘Aristocratically polite’ relations with the smack of humor and easy mutual critiquing distinguish this dual pair.
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    The last line summarizes it perfectly

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    easy mutual critiquing


    i've tried to get every "mate" i've had to "share" this with me...none of them can take it though...heh
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    Just don't criticise an INTp's self-worth.
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    I can't speak for everyone.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

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    1.) but you can speak for INTps?
    2.) If someone says, "You shouldn't criticize people's self-worth", saying "I can't speak for everyone" makes sense how?
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    This is fascinating. I've been pondering INTp/ESFp dynamics lately and this hits on it pretty good. I've been sorta comparing and contrasting INTp and ESFp vs ISFj.

    Critics have a great many thoughts about a lot of things. This would just be the tip of the iceberg but it's almost as if the ISFj is "Guarding" the INTp and shielding their non Fe sensitive thoughts from the world which can and will cause uproars (although the ISFj likes said thoughts and ideas), whereas an ESFp would be the exact opposite and trying to create a political movement (a cause to fight for) based on it and not shy about expressing those thoughts to the world at all.

    I can see this pretty clearly comparing my ISFj wife to her ESFp friend, who manages to get herself in all sorts of trouble.


    Thanks Joy for posting this.
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    This is fascinating. I've been pondering INTp/ESFp dynamics lately and this hits on it pretty good. I've been sorta comparing and contrasting INTp and ESFp vs ISFj.

    Critics have a great many thoughts about a lot of things. This would just be the tip of the iceberg but it's almost as if the ISFj is "Guarding" the INTp and shielding their non Fe sensitive thoughts from the world which can and will cause uproars (although the ISFj likes said thoughts and ideas), whereas an ESFp would be the exact opposite and trying to create a political movement (a cause to fight for) based on it and not shy about expressing those thoughts to the world at all.

    I can see this pretty clearly comparing my ISFj wife to her ESFp friend, who manages to get herself in all sorts of trouble.


    Thanks Joy for posting this.
    Te-INTp/ILI, my wife: Fi-ISFj/ESI, with laser beam death rays for ESTp/SLEs, lol
    16 years of bliss in an Activity relationship

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    Why did you call yourself what you did?
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    Why did you call yourself what you did?
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    huh?

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    huh?

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    stevENTj
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    stevENTj
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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    Why did you call yourself what you did?
    Yeah, it's really hard to put together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    Why did you call yourself what you did?
    Yeah, it's really hard to put together.

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    I've seen many of these couples. I see that what is lacking is Fe from the INTp (meaning, it's one of the externally coldest activity pairs (ISFjs maybe are feelers but if you don't initiate they don't get used to hugging you even if you are in a romantic relationship with them)) and "perception" from the ISFj (like, they mostly hang around the same places over and over)
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    I've seen many of these couples. I see that what is lacking is Fe from the INTp (meaning, it's one of the externally coldest activity pairs (ISFjs maybe are feelers but if you don't initiate they don't get used to hugging you even if you are in a romantic relationship with them)) and "perception" from the ISFj (like, they mostly hang around the same places over and over)
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj
    This is fascinating. I've been pondering INTp/ESFp dynamics lately and this hits on it pretty good. I've been sorta comparing and contrasting INTp and ESFp vs ISFj.

    Critics have a great many thoughts about a lot of things. This would just be the tip of the iceberg but it's almost as if the ISFj is "Guarding" the INTp and shielding their non Fe sensitive thoughts from the world which can and will cause uproars (although the ISFj likes said thoughts and ideas), whereas an ESFp would be the exact opposite and trying to create a political movement (a cause to fight for) based on it and not shy about expressing those thoughts to the world at all.

    I hate to spoil things, but this sounds a bit to litteraly... (ISFJ the guardian, ESFP the politician)


    And also it's not how the mutual feeling in these relationships have their origin...

    example:
    The reason for feeling protected in dual relationship is because your counscious recognizes the part of reality that is perceived by the partner as the part of reality that your own subcounscious can't handle well enough. So it doesn't take any concrete (protective) action of the partner to give you the feeling of protection, like i'm reading in your explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevENTj
    This is fascinating. I've been pondering INTp/ESFp dynamics lately and this hits on it pretty good. I've been sorta comparing and contrasting INTp and ESFp vs ISFj.

    Critics have a great many thoughts about a lot of things. This would just be the tip of the iceberg but it's almost as if the ISFj is "Guarding" the INTp and shielding their non Fe sensitive thoughts from the world which can and will cause uproars (although the ISFj likes said thoughts and ideas), whereas an ESFp would be the exact opposite and trying to create a political movement (a cause to fight for) based on it and not shy about expressing those thoughts to the world at all.

    I hate to spoil things, but this sounds a bit to litteraly... (ISFJ the guardian, ESFP the politician)


    And also it's not how the mutual feeling in these relationships have their origin...

    example:
    The reason for feeling protected in dual relationship is because your counscious recognizes the part of reality that is perceived by the partner as the part of reality that your own subcounscious can't handle well enough. So it doesn't take any concrete (protective) action of the partner to give you the feeling of protection, like i'm reading in your explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Because he originally thought he was an ENTj instead of INTp.
    Actually I originally thought I was INTp, but then realized I was ENTj after posting here a lot, only to realize once again that I was actually an INTp all along just acting as an ENTj when I needed to, and in the environment I was in at the time that was a pretty common thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Because he originally thought he was an ENTj instead of INTp.
    Actually I originally thought I was INTp, but then realized I was ENTj after posting here a lot, only to realize once again that I was actually an INTp all along just acting as an ENTj when I needed to, and in the environment I was in at the time that was a pretty common thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    I hate to spoil things, but this sounds a bit to litteraly... (ISFJ the guardian, ESFP the politician)

    And also it's not how the mutual feeling in these relationships have their origin...

    example:
    The reason for feeling protected in dual relationship is because your counscious recognizes the part of reality that is perceived by the partner as the part of reality that your own subcounscious can't handle well enough. So it doesn't take any concrete (protective) action of the partner to give you the feeling of protection, like i'm reading in your explanation.
    How do you think the Guardian and the Politician and the Critic and the Entepreneur all got their names? Yes, in a duality you recognize that your partner is strong where you're weak but desire to be strong yourself, and vice versa, which on a subconscious level is comforting, but that's not what I'm talking about. Whats going on in each others minds will still have concrete real-world realizations.

    And yes my wife is an ISFj, which is why I'm angling at this from an Activity relationship point of view also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    I hate to spoil things, but this sounds a bit to litteraly... (ISFJ the guardian, ESFP the politician)

    And also it's not how the mutual feeling in these relationships have their origin...

    example:
    The reason for feeling protected in dual relationship is because your counscious recognizes the part of reality that is perceived by the partner as the part of reality that your own subcounscious can't handle well enough. So it doesn't take any concrete (protective) action of the partner to give you the feeling of protection, like i'm reading in your explanation.
    How do you think the Guardian and the Politician and the Critic and the Entepreneur all got their names? Yes, in a duality you recognize that your partner is strong where you're weak but desire to be strong yourself, and vice versa, which on a subconscious level is comforting, but that's not what I'm talking about. Whats going on in each others minds will still have concrete real-world realizations.

    And yes my wife is an ISFj, which is why I'm angling at this from an Activity relationship point of view also.

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    Just thought I'd point out that my first serious, and only girlfriend is ISFj.
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    Just thought I'd point out that my first serious, and only girlfriend is ISFj.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

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    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    The reason for feeling protected in dual relationship is because your counscious recognizes the part of reality that is perceived by the partner as the part of reality that your own subcounscious can't handle well enough. So it doesn't take any concrete (protective) action of the partner to give you the feeling of protection, like i'm reading in your explanation.
    Could it be because

    1) Steve is talking about relations of activity
    2) Steve has broadened the scope beyond the people in the immediate relationship
    3) Steve isn't talking about INTps feeling protected
    I know what he wrote, it's just the angle from which things are explained is not well chosen. (IMO)

    I used the duality/protection as an example to make that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isha
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    The reason for feeling protected in dual relationship is because your counscious recognizes the part of reality that is perceived by the partner as the part of reality that your own subcounscious can't handle well enough. So it doesn't take any concrete (protective) action of the partner to give you the feeling of protection, like i'm reading in your explanation.
    Could it be because

    1) Steve is talking about relations of activity
    2) Steve has broadened the scope beyond the people in the immediate relationship
    3) Steve isn't talking about INTps feeling protected
    I know what he wrote, it's just the angle from which things are explained is not well chosen. (IMO)

    I used the duality/protection as an example to make that point.

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    I don't have the time or energy to keep up with all of the intellectual and theoretical style of discussion here, and frankly it bores me except in the rare cases when I'm trying to understand something very specific. I have many interests, and Socionics is just one of them. I'm also an admin on two automotive related sites, contribute to a few more, and I'm also into photography, am an officer in the "Rec Club" board at work, and I also have a 5 week old baby girl at home. Even if I wanted to keep up with the more theoretical style of discussions here, I simply don't have the time.

    As an INTp with PoLR- I simply do not understand the whole people and relationships "thing", never did, think it's a miracle that I found my wife going on 11 years ago, always thought I woudld be alone, recognized my weakness as a fault of mine, and so I use Socionics to help understand all of that better. I do that by understanding just the basic core theory, and then making a TON of observations of different people which INTp's are great at doing. So when I talk about something I might not be able to explain the precise theory behind it or that there even is a theory out there to explain it, but I know what I see, a real-world concrete example, which is what everybody lives in, and this is where it's helped me a ton. It's helped me understand my parents and especially my ISFp mom better, my ESTp sister, my ISFj wife, and some incredibly annoying ISTj's also, along with pretty much every other type. It also helps as far as conflict resolution between people on some of the other websites I help run. I've also noticed more than a few trends that would be neat to post up here and let people dig into it from the theoretical point of view, except that I never have time to post this stuff up! LOL. Has anybody else noticed << insert observation here >>? Is there a theory out there that explains it? Yes or no. If yes, what is it since I'd probably love to learn, and if not well cool I noticed something new!

    Personally I think some people would do themselves an awful lot of good here if they LOGGED OFF and spent a little bit more time out in that real-world rather than sitting in front of a computer for hours on end. However, I still respect some of those people greatly though, because they're the ones I can ask to help explain something in the real-world that I've seen, and sure enough there's a theory floating around as to why, or maybe even books written along those lines that I can check out. A pity I don't have more time to read books.

    So, if you want me to explain something strictly in theoretical terms I may flunk, and I don't care. What I bring here are "observations" and then you can argue amongst yourselves and maybe I'll even join in as to how precisely that fits (or doesn't fit) in Socionics theory.


    Cool?
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    I don't have the time or energy to keep up with all of the intellectual and theoretical style of discussion here, and frankly it bores me except in the rare cases when I'm trying to understand something very specific. I have many interests, and Socionics is just one of them. I'm also an admin on two automotive related sites, contribute to a few more, and I'm also into photography, am an officer in the "Rec Club" board at work, and I also have a 5 week old baby girl at home. Even if I wanted to keep up with the more theoretical style of discussions here, I simply don't have the time.

    As an INTp with PoLR- I simply do not understand the whole people and relationships "thing", never did, think it's a miracle that I found my wife going on 11 years ago, always thought I woudld be alone, recognized my weakness as a fault of mine, and so I use Socionics to help understand all of that better. I do that by understanding just the basic core theory, and then making a TON of observations of different people which INTp's are great at doing. So when I talk about something I might not be able to explain the precise theory behind it or that there even is a theory out there to explain it, but I know what I see, a real-world concrete example, which is what everybody lives in, and this is where it's helped me a ton. It's helped me understand my parents and especially my ISFp mom better, my ESTp sister, my ISFj wife, and some incredibly annoying ISTj's also, along with pretty much every other type. It also helps as far as conflict resolution between people on some of the other websites I help run. I've also noticed more than a few trends that would be neat to post up here and let people dig into it from the theoretical point of view, except that I never have time to post this stuff up! LOL. Has anybody else noticed << insert observation here >>? Is there a theory out there that explains it? Yes or no. If yes, what is it since I'd probably love to learn, and if not well cool I noticed something new!

    Personally I think some people would do themselves an awful lot of good here if they LOGGED OFF and spent a little bit more time out in that real-world rather than sitting in front of a computer for hours on end. However, I still respect some of those people greatly though, because they're the ones I can ask to help explain something in the real-world that I've seen, and sure enough there's a theory floating around as to why, or maybe even books written along those lines that I can check out. A pity I don't have more time to read books.

    So, if you want me to explain something strictly in theoretical terms I may flunk, and I don't care. What I bring here are "observations" and then you can argue amongst yourselves and maybe I'll even join in as to how precisely that fits (or doesn't fit) in Socionics theory.


    Cool?
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    I know exactly what you mean about the theory and complex discussions that people get into, being too damned tiring to follow. I usually see those symbols in a post and just skip past it now, unless it applies to me.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

  34. #34

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    I know exactly what you mean about the theory and complex discussions that people get into, being too damned tiring to follow. I usually see those symbols in a post and just skip past it now, unless it applies to me.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

  35. #35
    carrina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin View Post
    Just don't criticise an INTp's self-worth.
    Oy never

  36. #36
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    I don't really see steventj as ILI or IP

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