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Thread: ENTj/ISFj duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

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    Default ENTj/ISFj duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

    The Enterpriser is the ENTj and The Guardian is the ISFj.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Enterpriser' activities are pragmatically directed; he likes to spearhead the newest developments of science and technology up to practical implementation. He pays attention to everything unusual and less studied, but more willingly he is occupied with things bringing material profit. The Guardian needs such a hardworking partner, who can provide the necessary life standard; he helps his partner by accomplishing all undertakings, taking care of details and sparing material resources. Without such assistance The Enterpriser can be too extravagant, reckless and neglectful of his responsibilities, getting attracted to other things.

    The Enterpriser sees perspectives and positive trends in development of business. He bravely takes risk, making great investments and bets. He is very optimistic and ardent in his dealings, which sometimes leads him to failure. But he never loses heart and with the same enthusiasm starts everything up again.

    The Guardian likes such an impulsive and unpredictable partner, who does not let him get stuck with weighing all pros and cons of a decision. It helps to avoid the distressful feeling of uncertainty by confronting him with the fait accompli. Any waiting for the definite outcome is painful for The Guardian; he can becomes indecisive, too conservative and fussy. The Enterpriser with his characteristic sense of humor allays all his partner's apprehensions and takes the initiative in his own hands. He distracts from unnecessary details, thus targeting The Guardian to more global actions.

    The Enterpriser is hardly capable of safeguarding achievements, keeping old traditions and customs. He neglects his own time (and sometimes others), when he has an interesting conversation. For these reasons he may be late for meetings and behind on commitments. By contrast, The Guardian is punctual and attentive. He 'calculates' his time and energy and then spends them rationally and evenly. He tries to makes sure that others are timely as well. His life may become monotonous when his partner does not inspire him with new projects and ideas, which he hardly notices on his own.

    In communication The Guardian creates a certain distance, even when he tries to be kind and polite. He is mistrustful and critical and increasingly demanding. The Enterpriser creates a relaxed, natural and easy atmosphere of communication. But his jokes tend to be out of place or ambiguous.

    The Guardian watches and corrects his dual's mistakes. He succeeds in doing this as much as The Enterpriser succeeds in releasing tension in relations with people. The Enterpriser may become a victim to people who exploit his unwariness. The Guardian understands the nuances of relationships and sees what people really want. He takes preventive actions to counteract deceitful people and actions. He thus saves his dual from false friends.

    The Guardian diligently performs routine tasks; he is well aware of what people need not in the future, but in the here and now, and finds an active supporter in his dual.

    The Guardian is capable of handling great tasks for extended periods without relaxation, enduring difficulties and illness. He can be quite tolerant, but if irritated, he may strike a blow in the enemy's most vulnerable spot, teaching him a good lesson. In achieving his goals he is insistent, demanding to himself and others, and thus he stabilizes his restless dual, who tends to squander his energy in conflicting directions.

    The Guardian likes justice and objectivity. He wants to know what is legal and what is not. He is not sure of his own skills and is mistrustful of compliments, especially concerning his talents, possibilities and business skills. On the other hand, he is sure about his rights and power. Being well aware that The Enterpriser does not always properly protect his interests, he bravely repulses those who encroach upon them. He is thankful to the Enterpriser for demonstrating by real facts that there is nothing impossible for The Guardian, that he does everything well, either by himself or in cooperation with his partner.

    The Enterpriser finds ways out of difficult and intricate situations and by doing this also inspires his dual with the feeling of a secure future, which is so important for this worrisome person. He suggests, what can be required from whom in certain affairs and why, who possesses which talents and how they can be used.

    This dual pair is distinguished by such qualities as endurance, hard work and the sense of justice, which sometimes turns into critiquing self and others.
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    In principle and in spirit, I think it's an accurate description of how this duality can play out in some specific cases; a lot of it is not about the essence of this duality imo.

    The very last paragraph is good.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    mmmmmmmmmmmmm
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    mmmmmmmmmmmmm?
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    Reading these two dual descriptions, my wife is definitely ISFj and I'm definitely INTp.
    Te-INTp/ILI, my wife: Fi-ISFj/ESI, with laser beam death rays for ESTp/SLEs, lol
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    My brother is INTp and his wife is ISFj. They're a good couple, but I don't think he provides enough Ni for her, or at least not the right type of Ni. He's too apathetic. He pretty much doesn't ever really worry about anything, so he doesn't really address her Ne concerns as an ENTj would. Also, I can see where the temperament differences could be a bit of an issue at times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    My brother is INTp and his wife is ISFj. They're a good couple, but I don't think he provides enough Ni for her, or at least not the right type of Ni. He's too apathetic. He pretty much doesn't ever really worry about anything, so he doesn't really address her Ne concerns as an ENTj would. Also, I can see where the temperament differences could be a bit of an issue at times.
    The p/j temperament issues are definitely an issue, and can be avoided.

    Oversimplifying greatly, the difference between an ENTj and an INTp is that when an ENTj talks about doing something they're seriously planning to actually go and do it, whereas an INTp is just talking about it but never gets around to doing anything, lol. The "Guardian" ISFj is therefore perfect for an ENTj since they can protect them from getting into too much trouble. That same ISFj applied to an INTp can be overbearing and like the "thought police" because they try to protect an INTp from something they never would have done anyways since they're all talk.

    The workaround is having ENTj friends, because they seem to love hearing about all the nutty ideas that INTp's have. I've gotten along great with every ENTj I've ever known both online and in the real-world, and vice versa. And vice versa, ESFp's are great friends for my wife. So I don't share all of my wacky ideas with my wife because it's too annoying for me. But if I were an ENTj then I'd value that protection since I'd need it in the first place. The ISFj would also appreciate the ENTj for their optimism and for providing them with a bit more exciting life on a day to day basis than an INTp does.

    An INTp can ponder and think out loud about things a ton faster than it would take an ENTj to actually go and DO all of those things. This overstimulates the Guardian protective instincts in the ISFj in a hurry which is where Activity partners can burn out and need some time apart. But OH WHAT FUN it is before burnout stage though. On the other hand, the ISFj's desire for a protected and structured environment where everything is under control is waaaaay too overbearing and restrictive on a free thinking INTp that needs independence, which denies their perceptive side.

    It's really not a problem. My wife and I both have our own interests and friends on the side and we both give each other the time we want and need for that like any couple should. When we're out and doing things together though it's a BLAST like Activity partners can be, so easy to hit things off and get things going. The key for me is censoring my Ni a bit to avoid overstimulating her, and then not being afraid to use the Te. The past few years of my life and the general environment I've been in for the past few years has given me a lot of practice with this to the point that it's almost natural, and to the point of actually thinking I really was an ENTj for a time. But I'm not.
    Te-INTp/ILI, my wife: Fi-ISFj/ESI, with laser beam death rays for ESTp/SLEs, lol
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    It's interesting hearing it from the INTp's side of things... my brother is the INTp, but I am closer to his wife. She worries about their future plans and financial situation and big decisions a lot (as is typical of ISFjs), but when she brings her concerns to my brother, he just says that everything will be fine. They have a solid long term plan, and he knows that, but he can't be bothered by stuff he sees as smaller concerns that he feels she should be able to handle on her own, as if he expects her to be sufficiently confident about their future without his having to reassure her. I can see where a Se dominant positivist would work well with this mindset. Another area where their needs don't quite match up is decision making.

    In an ENTj/ISFj relationship, the ISFj voices his/her concerns about the various options available and their possible outcomes, and the ENTj happily provides an in depth analysis of what would most likely happen in each situation and how things could be handled in each situation if something went wrong. The ENTj addresses the ISFj's concerns about the likelihood of various things going wrong in different situations and then narrows down and simplifies the options. "If we do A, then B will probably happen. C could happen, but it's unlikely because of D, and even if it does happen we can always E. If we do F, there's a good chance that G or H could happen, which wouldn't be so bad, but the problem with that is that we'd also have to deal with I... The question is, do we want to E or to have to deal with I? Chances are we wouldn't even have to E anyways..." When presented with this type of information, the ISFj can either confidently make a decision about what should be done, state what (s)he thinks should be done and leaves the decision up to the ENTj (but wants an answer right away), or asks the ENTj what (s)he thinks they should do and then confidently accepts the ENTj's advice. Generally speaking, the ISFj is the one who is ultimately responsible for seeing that decisions are made one way or another because the ENTj doesn't have the same sense of urgency about finalizing specifics and actually taking the steps required to implement his/her ideas, though (s)he really wishes (s)he did. The ENTj is very appreciative that the ISFj pushes him/her this way.

    INTps aren't as willing to put forth this type of effort... when the ISFj tries to ask the INTp what they should do, the INTp says "You decide." In an ESFp/INTp relationship, the ESFp would be more than willing to make decisions and would do so with little hesitation. The INTp would be there to criticize what the ESFp is deciding, and then the ESFp would appreciatively revise his/her decisions based on the INTp's input. Generally speaking, the ESFp is the one who is ultimately responsible for seeing that decisions are made one way or another and pushing plans forward because the INTp doesn't have any sense of urgency about finalizing specifics and actually taking the steps required to implement either of their ideas.

    How I've seen this translate into an INTp/ISFj relationship is the ISFj asking the INTp what they should do, and the INTp saying "You decide." The ISFj stresses out and doesn't know what to do and is frustrated that (s)he's not getting all of the input (s)he needs from the INTp in order to make the decision... when it comes to finalizing specifics and actually taking the steps required to implement ideas, the ISFj can't do what (s)he does best because (s)he doesn't feel (s)he has the information necessary to make decisions. After a great deal of stressing out, the ISFj finally makes a decision on his/her own. At this point the INTp casually offers criticism on the ISFj's decision... I'm sure you can imagine how frustrating this is for the ISFj, who is then even more upset that the INTp didn't offer any input or help him/her make that decision in the first place and doesn't wish to go through the whole stressful process again to come to a new decision on his/her own, only to have the INTp criticize it again.

    Hmmm I may need to create a new thread about this INTp/ISFj thing.
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    I'm more like the ENTj in what you just described, and I'm not so sure that's a very good ENTj description, but I know for a fact that I'm not the best example of an INTp either, heh.

    When my wife is fretting about what to do on something, I'm usually the one saying "just do THIS" and don't leave it open. Recent example was she was fretting about whether to go look for a job on another career path, or hold out for an offer which might never come on her current career path with her current employer (she was at a crossroads). A not so simple "A" or "B" decision. Lets just say that her current employer has a bit of a history of making empty promises, I started to see some of the same patterns coming back again, and I told her "they're going to screw you again so fck them, go look for another job". She did, and hysterically she had just accepted an offer with another company only two days before her "promised job" at her current employer fell through, LOL. I fcking knew it and saw it coming from a mile away. aholes, lol. Anyways, my wife had fun having to pretend to be upset at not getting a slot in her current job/path when she had just accepted at another place making a lot more (but on a different career path). hehe

    Right now I'm helping my ESFj sis-in-law buy a car. Now here is where I do the A, B, C, D, "you decide" deal, because I really don't like making decisions for people unless I see a train wreck coming, like the situation above. Hell, I have enough trouble just making decisions for myself on day to day business so I certainly don't want to be in a position of having to make decisions for others in a tactical sense. I'm more strategic and big picture oriented, as most Gammas are. More accurately, I'm great at deciding on a certain strategic path or course of action to take, but SUCK at the nitty gritty details of making that happen, which is where an ISFj is handy. That's my same approach with looking for cars... I can consider somebody's needs like my sis-in-law and pickout a great car for her, but trim levels, options, color combos, ugghh.... I suck at that. We've got the right car picked out, but she'll have to do all the colors/options/trim level stuff herself. My wife is the opposite where she can nail down a color combo and a certain feature list, but lacks the ability to be able to pick the right car. She doesnt' know what she wants, but she knows she wants it in a medium-blue with features x, y, and z.

    No ENTj I've known is the type to list a bunch of options on the table and leave it up to a partner to make final decisions. The Entepreneuer (sp?) spirit is ALL ABOUT deciding on courses of actions and doing things, even if risk is involved because it's all calculated. My ENTj buds (all guys) usually just plan to go and do stuff, and either they'll get the riot act from their (hopefully ISFj) wives or they won't.

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    Joy I do agree with you though that INTp's are not the best at coming to a decision, but are GREAT at critiquing decisions already made. Ironically at my job I don't do original design engineering work (the Alpha and Beta Ti hacks do that) but rather my role is to critique, analyze, and improve designs already in existence. And the role is very natural.

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    I'll throw my comment on what happens usually when I'm in a relationship with/company of an ISFj, they start fretting and I'll be like "Ok I'll take the decision for you/do the job for you/etc"...this is not exactly fine until they start to trust that I will do it right.
    Occasionaly they'll be like "You always take all the decisions" and I'd be like "So ok you decide" and they're like "uhm....ok you decide"
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    The decisions I'm talking about aren't business related. When it comes to business, the ENTj knows what to do. (The ISFj often still helps push the ENTj's plan into the next stage though.) That said, just because an ENTj decides to do something doesn't mean that anything's actually been finalized. The ENTj still needs "the guardian" to voice concerns and insist on hammering out the details so nothing goes wrong. ENTjs appreciate this very much. The attitude you're describing in your ENTj friends sounds more like the attitude an ESFp would have in a relationship with someone other than an INTp... or perhaps an ENTj would have in a relationship with someone other than a Se creative type lol.

    (you do sound like a rather ENTj-ish INTp, btw...)
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    I actually sort of like this description better:

    [web:81532ac084]http://72.14.203.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://socioniko.net/ru/1.3.rels/dual-3j.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DGulenko%2Bsocionics%26num%3D50%26hl%3 Den%26lr%3Dlang_ru%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26sa%3DG%26as_qdr%3Dall[/web:81532ac084]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    In principle and in spirit, I think it's an accurate description of how this duality can play out in some specific cases; a lot of it is not about the essence of this duality imo.

    The very last paragraph is good.
    yeah parts of this description sounded more like SLE/IEI duality.

    ILE

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    Default Re: ENTj/ISFj duality description

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    The Enterpriser is the ENTj and The Guardian is the ISFj.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Enterpriser' activities are pragmatically directed; he likes to spearhead the newest developments of science and technology up to practical implementation. He pays attention to everything unusual and less studied, but more willingly he is occupied with things bringing material profit. The Guardian needs such a hardworking partner, who can provide the necessary life standard; he helps his partner by accomplishing all undertakings, taking care of details and sparing material resources. Without such assistance The Enterpriser can be too extravagant, reckless and neglectful of his responsibilities, getting attracted to other things.
    Interesting. I wonder why that would be the case, especially since in some ways this sounds like something in general that a Gamma would criticize an Alpha for doing? (Not that an Alpha would necessarily be like that.) This just seems to stand out when it would seem that an LIEs sense of -efficiency and "what works" would be able to manage even this aspect.
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    Extraversion+positivism, logos
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Se hidden agenda as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Se hidden agenda as well
    Well, I see ESFjs, ENTps and ESFps as being easily caught up in similar problems, whereas it seems to be rarer for ENFjs to do so. That's why I thought it was more related to positivist-extravert (probably there's an influence of democracy too) over Se HA
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    I'm sure it's related to a lot of things. And people can have similar problems for different reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Extraversion+positivism, logos
    That's always a possibility. It just seemed to be something of a paradox of sorts between the LIE's primary as knowing what works and the recklessness and extravagance that would seem to indicate them not being very efficient with the efficiency of their efficiency.

    ETA: Still it is not a bad a description, though I am not sure how well I can judge its accuracy without being Gamma myself, but whatever. I may have to and dig up the LII/ESE and ILE/SEI descriptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Extraversion+positivism, logos
    That's always a possibility. It just seemed to be something of a paradox of sorts between the LIE's primary as knowing what works and the recklessness and extravagance that would seem to indicate them not being very efficient with the efficiency of their efficiency.
    We may find that the lifestyle which is the most efficient in giving us satisfaction is one of extravagancy, especially if there are no better alternatives (read: dual) around. Given that utility is subjective, here there is no availability for an efficiency benchmark and thus what a person might find wasteful another might find perfectly suited for hir aims.
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    Default Re: ENTj/ISFj duality description

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    The Enterpriser is the ENTj and The Guardian is the ISFj.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Enterpriser' activities are pragmatically directed; he likes to spearhead the newest developments of science and technology up to practical implementation. He pays attention to everything unusual and less studied, but more willingly he is occupied with things bringing material profit. The Guardian needs such a hardworking partner, who can provide the necessary life standard; he helps his partner by accomplishing all undertakings, taking care of details and sparing material resources. Without such assistance The Enterpriser can be too extravagant, reckless and neglectful of his responsibilities, getting attracted to other things.
    Interesting. I wonder why that would be the case, especially since in some ways this sounds like something in general that a Gamma would criticize an Alpha for doing? (Not that an Alpha would necessarily be like that.) This just seems to stand out when it would seem that an LIEs sense of -efficiency and "what works" would be able to manage even this aspect.
    No, the "neglectful of his responsibilities", in order to make sense, has to refer to daily affairs, so Si-related -- that is the difference between the LSE's Te and the LIE's. The LSE takes care of everything he has to do on a daily basis, as they come; for Si quadra types, the LSE is the "efficient" type. The LSE's weakness, from the point of view of the LIE, is that the LSE ends up doing tasks that are not really that urgent, or even necessary anymore, therefore a waste of time and energy.

    The LIE, with Ni, tends to keep thinking ahead, what he's going to do next week, next month, or in 10 years; that distracts him from boring daily affairs, and the ESI either helps the LIE with those, or kicks him in the ass to get going. That is precisely the interaction between myself and a lady ESI clerk in my previous job.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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