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Thread: ESTp/INFp duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

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    Default ESTp/INFp duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

    The Commander is the ESTp and The Lyricist is the INFp.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Commander is decisive and purposeful, brave and full of initiative. He is capable of persevering a long time towards his goal, overcoming any difficulties at his way. He is not always capable of taming his emotions and outbursts of wrath, but can subordinate others to him and make them do what he wants. The Lyricist lacks such decisiveness; he admires strong people possessing leadership skills. He tries to be useful to them by giving cautionary advice.

    The Lyricist foresees very well the negative outcome of certain actions of The Commander. He watches people's emotional reactions and then suggests to the Commander measures to influence them. Without such advice The Commander may act precipitately. The Commander possesses good organizational skills. He has a talent for planning actions, distributing duties and resources. The Commander at the same time lacks diplomacy. He will manipulate people like inanimate objects, not reckoning with their feelings and interests. Thus he turns people against him but he does not understand why. The Lyricist softens his authoritarianism, tuning him up to a warmer attitude. He advises to be diplomatic, calms him down, releases The Commander's irritability by jokes and compliments made at the right moment. At the same time he creates the atmosphere of politeness, being aristocratic, 'keeping aloof', regulates distance in communication, as soon as he feels the partner is ready to insult him. In this way The Lyricist avoids possible confrontation.

    The Commander tends to doubt not only the good attitude of others towards him, but also noble motives of others. He rather notices people’s negative traits more than positive ones. Sometimes he is excessively suspicious, afraid of treason, and for this reason tends to surround himself by favorites whom he trusts. The Lyricist neutralizes The Commander's prejudice by his trustful and kind manner of communication, neutralizing his suspicions by assertions of his loyalty.

    The Lyricist is capable of choosing a moment for sudden decisive actions, which discourages opponents, and this makes him useful to The Commander, who appreciates his original advice. The Lyricist attracts people and manipulates their feelings and relations. He looks forward and prepares for the future in advance. He finds necessary acquaintances and fulfillers for his projects. Unlike The Commander, he is optimistic and can inspire others with his optimism, especially his dual, who values interests in concrete affairs over all and so expects from others dirty tricks rather than assistance. It is for this reason he loses adherents and falls into depression caused by bad foreboding.

    The Lyricist's shortcoming is his inclination to blame others considering them guilty of his own misfortunes. The Commander easily calms down his dual by threatening to punish the offenders and to restore justice. Sometimes he puts The Lyricist to shame, teaches him lessons of courage and endurance. Together with such a strong personality The Lyricist is ready to overcome everything, believing in success. He needs moral support, without which his vital tonus decreases. He needs, too, a support of an authoritative partner, who understands instructions and rules, possesses penetrative skills, realism and practical intelligence.
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    Thanks for posting this - it was a very interesting read. I wonder, though, whether any Socionists have written an article about the potential problems and pitfalls of duality in addition to its positive aspects.

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    I guess this description is pretty good, I mean, I like it alright.



    I don't need any authority though...bad word... I like "firm guidence".
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    I guess this description is pretty good, I mean, I like it alright.



    I don't need any authority though...bad word... I like "firm guidence".
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Is it just me or.. don't this sound rather evil? =) Manipulate, tricks, being overall machiavelli'ish. But as it was "Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000. " I guess it do not give the whole picture...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkstar
    Is it just me or.. don't this sound rather evil? =) Manipulate, tricks, being overall machiavelli'ish. But as it was "Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000. " I guess it do not give the whole picture...

    I notice that too, it seems to be the essense of a lot of ESTp/INFp duality descriptions. Which is why I doubt my being INFp often.
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkstar
    Is it just me or.. don't this sound rather evil? =) Manipulate, tricks, being overall machiavelli'ish. But as it was "Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000. " I guess it do not give the whole picture...
    Yeah, I think it's exaggerated. Many ESTps are more sanguine than that and do not really seem to care about having such a negative impact on the environment.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    who cares, infp, estp. not worth spending thinking time on

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    fdg, aye. That is probably true. But I must say that it sounds kind of 'cool' it is like a two man social army ^^

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    bump

    Read this for the first time today and found it interesting, especially this part:

    The Lyricist foresees very well the negative outcome of certain actions of The Commander. He watches people's emotional reactions and then suggests to the Commander measures to influence them. Without such advice The Commander may act precipitately. The Commander possesses good organizational skills. He has a talent for planning actions, distributing duties and resources. The Commander at the same time lacks diplomacy. He will manipulate people like inanimate objects, not reckoning with their feelings and interests. Thus he turns people against him but he does not understand why. The Lyricist softens his authoritarianism, tuning him up to a warmer attitude. He advises to be diplomatic, calms him down, releases The Commander's irritability by jokes and compliments made at the right moment. At the same time he creates the atmosphere of politeness, being aristocratic, 'keeping aloof', regulates distance in communication, as soon as he feels the partner is ready to insult him. In this way The Lyricist avoids possible confrontation.
    I don't particularly like this though:
    The Lyricist's shortcoming is his inclination to blame others considering them guilty of his own misfortunes. The Commander easily calms down his dual by threatening to punish the offenders and to restore justice. Sometimes he puts The Lyricist to shame, teaches him lessons of courage and endurance. Together with such a strong personality The Lyricist is ready to overcome everything, believing in success. He needs moral support, without which his vital tonus decreases. He needs, too, a support of an authoritative partner, who understands instructions and rules, possesses penetrative skills, realism and practical intelligence.
    ?

    I don't know, what do you all think?
    Last edited by fox; 01-03-2009 at 03:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Hey starfall can you link me the duality description site? I've read it once but i couldn't find it ever since, I think it has all 8 duality description. Please, Thanks.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpiazza000 View Post
    Hey starfall can you link me the duality description site? I've read it once but i couldn't find it ever since, I think it has all 8 duality description. Please, Thanks.
    Ah, sorry, I'm also not sure where it is. I'll try to see if somebody posted up the ENFj-ISTj one though.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    I think it might also be posted in this site? I will check.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Ok, found it on the search engine, Joy post most of them.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    The Lyricist's shortcoming is his inclination to blame others considering them guilty of his own misfortunes. The Commander easily calms down his dual by threatening to punish the offenders and to restore justice. Sometimes he puts The Lyricist to shame, teaches him lessons of courage and endurance. Together with such a strong personality The Lyricist is ready to overcome everything, believing in success. He needs moral support, without which his vital tonus decreases. He needs, too, a support of an authoritative partner, who understands instructions and rules, possesses penetrative skills, realism and practical intelligence.

    I like this. Cause I know that feeling of blaming other people. And when I do that, I KNOW in my head that it's not true but part of me still would like someone to take my side. I think that if an ESTp would take my side, it would seriously calm me down because it would put things into perspective. Kind of like then I wouldn't feel so alone in my misfortunes. If you have a powerful person on your side, you're not so prone to depression and "poor me" thoughts.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    The Lyricist's shortcoming is his inclination to blame others considering them guilty of his own misfortunes. The Commander easily calms down his dual by threatening to punish the offenders and to restore justice. Sometimes he puts The Lyricist to shame, teaches him lessons of courage and endurance. Together with such a strong personality The Lyricist is ready to overcome everything, believing in success. He needs moral support, without which his vital tonus decreases. He needs, too, a support of an authoritative partner, who understands instructions and rules, possesses penetrative skills, realism and practical intelligence.

    I like this. Cause I know that feeling of blaming other people. And when I do that, I KNOW in my head that it's not true but part of me still would like someone to take my side. I think that if an ESTp would take my side, it would seriously calm me down because it would put things into perspective. Kind of like then I wouldn't feel so alone in my misfortunes. If you have a powerful person on your side, you're not so prone to depression and "poor me" thoughts.
    curious. i thought you were meant to berate people when they had petty misfortunes, and wanted to blow up about them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    curious. i thought you were meant to berate people when they had petty misfortunes, and wanted to blow up about them.
    no, if you're an ESTp, you're supposed to berate the people who are causing the INFp's misfortunes. don't you know! you must not be ESTp.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    no, if you're an ESTp, you're supposed to berate the people who are causing the INFp's misfortunes. don't you know! you must not be ESTp.
    well, fuck most people aren't worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    well, fuck most people aren't worth it.
    I assume the description wasn't meaning "most people" but rather one's significant other. so you're right, most people wouldn't be worth it, just the one person you're with.
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    We invoke blame not because we feel that the other party is entirely in the wrong (our Ti knows that it's more complicated than that) - we do it simply to be protected by the ESTp.

    Otherwise, without the blame and the heavy moral/ethical judgements of other people, the IEI would definitely be drained and without a protector. We are just one of the types that feels things deeply.

    And also, all types are fragile in things, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Our good-natured ness and our ability to not exclude people for stupid reasons makes up for it.

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    I've been spending time with Beta's lately including a few SLE's and it's really uncanny how accurate some of this stuff sounds. It's not just the whole duality thing either; just spending time with Beta's in general can be highly refreshing.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post

    I like this. Cause I know that feeling of blaming other people. And when I do that, I KNOW in my head that it's not true but part of me still would like someone to take my side. I think that if an ESTp would take my side, it would seriously calm me down because it would put things into perspective. Kind of like then I wouldn't feel so alone in my misfortunes. If you have a powerful person on your side, you're not so prone to depression and "poor me" thoughts.
    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    We invoke blame not because we feel that the other party is entirely in the wrong (our Ti knows that it's more complicated than that) - we do it simply to be protected by the ESTp.

    Otherwise, without the blame and the heavy moral/ethical judgements of other people, the IEI would definitely be drained and without a protector. We are just one of the types that feels things deeply.

    And also, all types are fragile in things, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Our good-natured ness and our ability to not exclude people for stupid reasons makes up for it.
    Oh, ok. I get it a little better now when it actually comes from other IEI's; it really didn't sit well with me to begin with, as I mostly like to view myself as highly independent and not in need of others protection. In fact, I usually like to be the one defending the one's I care about.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Here is one description site, but, not the same description as the top one.

    2nd quadra: the irrational dual pair
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    it really didn't sit well with me to begin with, as I mostly like to view myself as highly independent and not in need of others protection. In fact, I usually like to be the one defending the one's I care about.
    Every type has light and darkness. The darkness of an IEI could be this blame/moral judgment. Whiny little bitches....

    However... there is also the light of an IEI... when he stand up and becomes a torch! In that moment, I imagine something happens but is more like SLE clearing obstacles.

    Dynamically, the interaction is very similar but it stands on very different grounds.

    Is the difference between:
    "Oh, the enemies are coming to get me, please protect me!"
    and
    "I will face the enemy and fight for my dream, your help is much appreciated".
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    IEI light and dark are both very strong because of ethics. Balanced IEIs act more naturalistic, like shamans. Or maybe I'm thinking of healthy 6s....

    But yeah, unhappy, bored and depressed IEIs will start overly moralizing everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    IEI light and dark are both very strong because of ethics. Balanced IEIs act more naturalistic, like shamans. Or maybe I'm thinking of healthy 6s....

    But yeah, unhappy, bored and depressed IEIs will start overly moralizing everything.
    everyone who is balanced acts naturally. imbalance is unnatural.

    you don't want to slant one way too far. although you should include both sides in equal proportions.

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    It's not really acting balance though. Just... fluid actually, a sort of inner comfort. I get what you mean though.

    It's just kinda especially important for IEI/6s because of the self-confident issues other types may not have.

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    Also, Starfall is right, IEIs also defend/stick up for others too. I've had other IEIs do that lots of times with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Also, Starfall is right, IEIs also defend/stick up for others too. I've had other IEIs do that lots of times with me.
    Yes, I find it dificult to keep myself from defending people at times. I have an IEI friend who threatens to give various guys "ass beatings" if he thinks they're trying to sexually harass me.

    Quote Originally Posted by vague View Post
    INFp do-s.

    - Be straight-forward. When you approach, drop the formalities and address the INFp as though you've known them forever. We are not easily offended or weirded out -- we'll work with anything in a conversation.

    -Do not interrupt. We will cease talking and revert into smile and nod mode.

    -Be short and concise when you speak. Do not put us in a coma with drawn out rambles.

    -Take us with a grain of salt. If you enter into a debate, do not become red-faced. We don't even stand behind our own points. We argue ideas that we don't necessarily believe to gain better understanding or to amuse ourselves, often at the expense of a frustrated party.

    -Do not expect us to take much initiative or make decisions. Tell us how it’s going to be. Exert your authority. Go ahead, make us giddy.

    It is near impossible not to get along with an INFp. If you somehow manage this, it is not the INFp that is to blame.

    Edit: My use of "we" and "us" is inappropriate. I should not claim to speak for all INFps. These kind of presumptions are simply unacceptable. I am ashamed and will check my authorative tone at the door from now on.
    Doesn't really fit here, but I just thought I'd post it up somewhere because I find it so accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    those are good, Starfall.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    those are good, Starfall.
    Very good actually!
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    The Commander is the ESTp and The Lyricist is the INFp.
    Yeah, I like this description - practical and common-sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I don't know, what do you all think?
    I disagree with that too. Okay, maybe some SLEs take the role of justice-distributor, but I don't think it's all-encompassing; I bet you find some SLEs who just don't give a shit. (Actually, I've just had a thought - maybe 7w8 SLEs are more disinclined to punish injustice than 8w7 SLEs. I bet I care about justice a great deal more than, say, Herzy does.)

    Quote Originally Posted by vague View Post
    -Do not interrupt. We will cease talking and revert into smile and nod mode.
    Ha, didn't know that. Best keep quiet now to avoid my chances with prospective partners.

    -Take us with a grain of salt. If you enter into a debate, do not become red-faced. We don't even stand behind our own points. We argue ideas that we don't necessarily believe to gain better understanding or to amuse ourselves, often at the expense of a frustrated party.
    Haha, I do that too.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Default SLE-IEI dual description, Meged, machine translated

    Dug this up on a Russian socionics site. There are lengthy descriptions for all the specific relations, from various sources, so if people are interested and haven't seen these, I'll add some more. If this is already on this forum, just let me know--I couldn't find it here.

    Disclaimer: I made some quick fixes to tidy up the language, and I may have taken liberties. I don't have time for a careful analysis of the Russian original right now. Where I couldn't see the meaning clearly, quickly, I just used square brackets.

    I think this is a better description of SLE than I've seen before. It shows the conflicts and doubts, not just some stereotype of an all-powerful person.

    Why do they call SLE "the Beetle" in Russia, btw? Is that just some screwy thing that google translator's coming up with. I saw it in a lot of discussions.

    Beetle - Yesenin (Meged)

    SLE (Zhukov)

    This is a strong personality that overestimates or underestimates its abilities and will power. In the first case we are dealing with a "superman," trying to imitate the heroes of American fighters. In the second case, it is a rebellious person, constantly and unsuccessfully searching for himself and how to use his abilities. If such a search is delayed, the first victim of an unsolvable situation becomes himself. He might ruin himself by drinking, or engage in a risky enterprise, or in the best case start to enter conflict with colleagues or loved ones, forcing on them his views and values of life.

    In this connection, SLE needs a partner who is able to help him find a decent point of application of the forces and who is strong enough to interest him in the ultimate goal. SLE inspires only the big goals that require ingenuity and courage.

    SLE (Zhukov) can and must channel his energy into a career, organizational and economic activities, documents, the details of the case, the improvement of family welfare, construction, repair, and the solving of other practical problems. A man of this type can deal with the most difficult and dangerous cases. Therefore, he needs a partner who will take care that the ultimate goals and paths to them are sufficiently humane.

    Despite these natural inclinations, many members of this type are not even aware of their enormous potential and often suffer from self-doubt or from some kind of superstition. They need a partner who demonstrates unfailing optimism and faith in the success of any undertaking. The main thing is to rid the people of this type of anxiety and doubt, and then they can ovecome their difficulties.

    Most SLEs hate treachery and tend to find it even where it is not. SLE has a highly developed code of honor, although sometimes it can take an extravagant form. [Then he will condemn others in order to justify himself.] This complicates the quality of his relationships with others, so his partner must be constantly engaged in restoration of good relations and not wait for SLE to do this. SLE's dual plays the role of a diplomat with the king. IEI (Esenin) can mitigate the suspicion and distrust of his dual, believes his groundless fears.

    IEI (Esenin)

    Gentle, compliant, emotional, romantic, and unpredictable partner. The IEI is not boring, because you often wrestle to find the reasons for his statements or actions. For his dual, unable to endure monotony, it is extremely interesting to constantly overcome the small and big problems and challenges posed by a loved one.

    IEI (Esenin) can always tell who the real enemy is and where to first send send well-organized strikes. IEI is able to emotionally affect the team, setting one group against another, or individuals. IEI has a great sense of danger and shrewd is enough to gather the necessary evidence and to develop a psychological behavioral strategy that guarantees success. With SLE (Zhukov), it can create the perfect union of strength and vision, strategy and tactics. It is only necessary for them to properly evaluate each other's ability.

    For weaknesses such as excessive relaxation, impracticality, passivity, and conformism in the relationship, IEI (Esenin) can be forgiven. He's a diplomat, not a fighter. For this reason, at the beginning of their acquaintance he rarely impresses his dual, in contrast to more strong and vivid personalities, for whom SLE initially has enthusiasm, quickly replaced by disappointment and irritation.

    IEI, with weak business acumen and low efficiency, has a weakness: he tends to become strongly upset over trifles, disheartened and complaining. He attaches great importance to external aesthetics and is prone to thoughtless waste of money.

    But when his partner assumes the worst, or falls apart, IEI (Esenin) always manages to cheer him up, to distract him, to assure that everything will be fine. At heart IEI is an idealist and an optimist and always believe in the best. The main thing is, he can wait patiently for what he believes in.

    Terms of dualization

    1. These are two extremes that only together can find the middle ground on which rests the truth, and harmony. That is why the IEI (Esenin) [should not decisively help SLE (Zhukov) to achieve the goal of rising over others, putting this above relations. ??????] IEI should help, as he hold the forces that mitigate these trends, explain their negative effects. When the strong-willed head dual turns directly against IEI, the IEi should not be offended; it is better to turn everything into a joke or skillfully manage the emotions of the SLE partner to switch his attention to more important issues than fighting with relatives.

    2. Interference in each other's sphere of activity not only leads to strife, but also weakens the overall effectiveness of the dyad. SLE (Zhukov) must constantly watch that his tutelage and initiative are manifested in an inoffensive way, and IEI (Esenin) should softly ignore excessive pressure from his partner, demonstrating a willingness to compromise and work toward reciprocity.

    3. IEI (Esenin) should be given freedom in his diplomatic activities related to the emotional impact on people, as well as to develop a common strategy for the intellectual development of the dyad. SLE (Zhukov) has take charge of providing for family, its protection and improvement, and [business papers].

    4. Prudence and foresight in dealing with certain people, as well as planning for holidays, parties, holiday travel, and entertainment, are the different strength of the IEI (Esenin). In this case, SLE (Zhukov) has to perform the practical part of the program: to get tickets, barbecue grill, drive, etc.

    5. As for the emotional side of sexual relations, SLE (Zhukov) is very impressed with his partner's moody, sentimental, and variously expressed feelings, his developed sense of humor and tact, his intriguing mystery and surprising reactions.

    IEI (Esenin) is responsive to a strong, temperamental, self-confident, proactive sex partner. [Here he is driven, as certain only in the romantic feelings and attitudes.] IEI (Esenin) needs a partner who can overcome his hesitancy and awaken his sensuality. [His desire to not have to leave at IEI (Esenin) room for doubt that this issue is often painful for him.]

    In this dual pair of relations in many respects similar to the previous description. [This must refer to the other Beta dual pair's description. --Golden] Both couples are prone to some kind of "play-fight." The overbearing nature of SLE (Zhukov) causes emotional resonance in the IEI (Esenin), who skillfully plays upon his feelings and can [endure a lot] from such a strong and authoritarian personality. SLE (Zhukov) likes to feel like a winner, and IEI (Esenin) likes diplomacy and kindness, [daunting at times violent partner.]

    [In the following, is Meged discussing the DCNH subtypes? I assumed so and rephrased it to better reflect that language.]

    Often IEI (Esenin) has the form of a harmonizing personality, but there are possibilities, such as a predominance of creative [psihoformy]: [these are] musicians, artists, poets, etc. They are contraindicated in pairing with a dual with dominant behavior. It is preferable for them to partner with the normalizing type, a more calm and balanced person; otherwise, their "play-fighting" could lead to mutual destruction or even end in drama.

    This dyad [finds emotional monotony and lack of excitement unbearable,] [their sense of being updated and tempered in the suffering.] [If the aggressive nature of SLE (Zhukov) wanted never to quarrel, his partner, their whims and mood swings himself would have provoked a resurgence of negative emotions, which are then skillfully translated to a positive.]

    It should be noted that this pair often has problems with jealousy, especially from the [suspicious] SLE. The habits of IEI, with [all the spoon and his mood], contribute to the development of this feeling. Do not tease the beast: for SLE (Zhukov), there is no sin greater than betrayal.

    It may seem that this dyad [has] sadomasochistic tendencies. In fact, the soft, soulful, and sentimental IEI (Esenin) acts on the SLE (Zhukov) to relax him to some extent and suppress his instinct to fight. In the case of a quarrel, the emotional reaction IEI (Esenin) is so original and unpredictable that the SLE, poorly oriented in feelings, softens and seeks compromise. The image of the IEI as "victim" also affects SLE (Zhukov) more strongly than if IEI had an equal role, [and undefeated enemy that does not cause self-pity.]

    Due to his compliance and fine diplomacy IEI (Esenin) can often find it difficult to win such a person as SLE (Zhukov), with his ambitions and subconscious aggression, which usually [finds a sense of weakness] and does not want to get into an emotional relationship to the opposite sex.

  33. #33
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
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    A few types have two names, among them SLE and SEE, the latter being Caesar and Napoleon.
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    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    A few types have two names, among them SLE and SEE, the latter being Caesar and Napoleon.
    Yeah, I just wasn't sure where this moniker "the Beetle" comes from and wondered about it.

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    Probably > battle > battler/beetle ???

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    Very useful information Golden. Especially since I've considering ESTp for my type the past couple days. Seems to fit better than ENTp.

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    If anyone wants me to dig up some others, let me know what relationship you'd like to read about. Not just duals--all types in all relations are described.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Very useful information Golden. Especially since I've considering ESTp for my type the past couple days. Seems to fit better than ENTp.
    Do you find this description more accurate than some others? And in general, why ESTp>ENTp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden View Post
    If anyone wants me to dig up some others, let me know what relationship you'd like to read about. Not just duals--all types in all relations are described.
    Conflicting would be interesting between LSI and IEE, and also the IEI-IEE relation, might be a big ask though.

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    Do you have a link for the site?
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

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