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Thread: INTj/ESFj duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

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    Default INTj/ESFj duality description by Meged and Ovcharov

    The Analyst is the INTj and The Bonvivant is the ESFj.

    © From: V.Meged, A.Ovcharov. Learn To Manage People Efficiently, 2000.

    The Analyst possesses clear logical thinking and therefore makes strict and well-grounded conclusions. This is exactly what The Bonvivant needs. His wild emotions often collide with objectivity in his understanding of what needs to be done. Moreover, he has trouble distinguishing between what is important from what is secondary. For this reason The Bonvivant tends to expend too much time and energy doing favors for people who could easily get by without such assistance. The Analyst suggests what is profitable and what is not worth wasting time and material on; otherwise The Bonvivant may be excessive.

    The Analyst loves intellectual development. He pays attention to new theories and technologies. The Bonvivant is receptive to everything new and willingly finds necessary information for The Analyst on issues that interest him. Since The Bonvivant is very active and prompt, he is always well informed about everything concerning demand and proposal. On the other hand, The Analyst lacks tact and sincere attention towards people. In this way he often unintentionally offends people. Others may feel he is impersonal or like objects of cold-minded analysis.

    The Bonvivant can bring warmth and easiness into communication. He often releases tension by his jokes and demonstrations of warm feelings. He uses close physical and psychological approaches - hugs, touches etc. In this way he softens ethical mistakes of The Analyst by turning serious things into ridiculous. In critical situations he can even apologize for his partner, unless he agrees with him. And when he agrees, he becomes like an emotional hurricane smashing opponents in his way.

    The second problem of the Analyst is lack of initiative. He often neglects his physical needs, and does not defend his interests unless it directly relates to his principles. However, in defending his principles The Analyst demonstrates outstanding inflexibility. One can break his impertinence only by influencing his softness, which he hides under a mask of haughtiness, but only in the sphere of relations and not ideas or principles.

    The Bonvivant easily manages such problems, especially because he rarely understands the sphere of abstract ideas and does not consider himself to be competent enough to argue about them. He is more interested in mundane problems. This is why he willingly cares for health and appearance of The Analyst, and by this softens his severe soul. He can protect practical interests (his dual does not always clearly understand them), round the departments, make arrangements, take care of everyday chores. He bravely rejects would-be-friends who in fact only want to use The Analyst’s skills for their own interest.

    The Bonvivant finds in The Analyst a source of clear information and total objectivity, which helps him to solve various problems and schedule actions. He arranges rest stops and amusements for his dual, who tends to deplete himself by working too hard. He is proud of himself when he succeeds in thawing the ice of The Analyst's mistrust and submits his independent partner to his emotional influence. He tames his proud nature and manages him so finely that the Analyst has no qualms ("because we want the same thing").

    The Bonvivant is an expert at manipulating emotions of others, thus arousing the necessary attitude of others. He understands the use of The Analyst's talents and hard work, and so does not hold back in praising him and creating efficient working conditions for him. The weakest point of The Bonvivant is his lack of foresight. His mistakes in global choices can be as great as The Analyst's mistakes in the sphere of feelings. The Analyst can predict the outcome of certain actions or events, if only he himself is not obsessed by emotions, which happens to him very rarely.

    In certain cases this dual pair may demonstrate a disregard for the morals and opinions of the others, shocking them by the straightforwardness of their actions.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    having an ESFj best friend also helps you to learn some general things about what it is about her that makes everyone at ease, and what it is about you that makes people feel reserved - and how to soften the effect. it's a good thing to at least try to learn, as if your best friend gets married you'll have to start going without the support for a lot of the time. ESFjs are not threatening to an INTj, and are relatively trustworthy, and so handy to learn from, especially the ones who are especially good at being with people.

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    having an ESFj best friend also helps you to learn some general things about what it is about her that makes everyone at ease, and what it is about you that makes people feel reserved - and how to soften the effect. it's a good thing to at least try to learn, as if your best friend gets married you'll have to start going without the support for a lot of the time. ESFjs are not threatening to an INTj, and are relatively trustworthy, and so handy to learn from, especially the ones who are especially good at being with people.

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    The thing I do not really like about this description is the way that it makes the ESE sound like an idiotic slave to the LII, though I do like the last sentence as it demonstrates the "to Hell with 'em" attitude that I have observed in LII/ESE relations.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    The thing I do not really like about this description is the way that it makes the ESE sound like an idiotic slave to the LII, though I do like the last sentence as it demonstrates the "to Hell with 'em" attitude that I have observed in LII/ESE relations.
    ever read the ILE-SEI one?

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I like the idea of them being promethus - nemesis (a nod to david keirsey's publishing company) @ offending others morals.
    Lefty
    ENFJ

    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    The thing I do not really like about this description is the way that it makes the ESE sound like an idiotic slave to the LII, though I do like the last sentence as it demonstrates the "to Hell with 'em" attitude that I have observed in LII/ESE relations.
    ever read the ILE-SEI one?
    i actually think the SEI sounds powerful in that description. It's my favorite duality description actually.

    i also like the INTj ESFj one and don't see it as a "to hell with them" type of mentality. I see it as obliviousness and individualism. The ISTj ENFj description sounds to me more in that vein, the reason i don't like it.

    this is what rings most true to me in the above:

    Quote Originally Posted by description
    ...The Analyst by turning serious things into ridiculous
    it's the only way things will work with me. Do not respond well to orders at all without some lightness.


    This I think applies to ENFjs too:

    Quote Originally Posted by description
    The Bonvivant is an expert at manipulating emotions of others, thus arousing the necessary attitude of others.
    i really relate to the bolded part as something i need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    The thing I do not really like about this description is the way that it makes the ESE sound like an idiotic slave to the LII, though I do like the last sentence as it demonstrates the "to Hell with 'em" attitude that I have observed in LII/ESE relations.
    ever read the ILE-SEI one?
    i actually think the SEI sounds powerful in that description. It's my favorite duality description actually.
    really? to me it sounds completely out of balance. like, it's really not clear what the SEI gets out of the relationship and the ILE seems like a baby.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    i also like the INTj ESFj one and don't see it as a "to hell with them" type of mentality. I see it as obliviousness and individualism. The ISTj ENFj description sounds to me more in that vein, the reason i don't like it.
    What about it? Because this type description seems to show a huge imbalance in the INTj/ESFj relation.
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    I dont think it seems imbalanced and I dont think either partner seems like a baby. People have their strenghts and their weaknesses and ideally they can harmoniously balance one another out and that's all there is to it. It is what it is.


    I really think people spend a lot of their lives trying to turn other people into their duals without realizing it. I'm really glad david keirsey pointed this out with his section on pygmalion projects, because it's a fruitless and cruel endeavor.

    You know I believe as an enfj in bringing out the potential in others, but that's just what it is is *their* potential.

    Isis & Osiris





    The Seven Hermetic Principles, upon which the entire Hermetic Philosophy is based, are as follows:

    I THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM.

    II THE PRINCIPLE OF CORRESPONDENCE

    III THE PRINCIPLE OF VIBRATION.

    IV THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY.

    V THE PRINCIPLE OF RHYTHM.

    VI THE PRINCIPLE OF CAUSE AND EFFECT.

    VII THE PRINCIPLE OF GENDER.

    http://www.muhammadfarms.com/hermetic_principles.htm
    Lefty
    ENFJ

    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    I dont think it seems imbalanced and I dont think either partner seems like a baby. People have their strenghts and their weaknesses and ideally they can harmoniously balance one another out and that's all there is to it. It is what it is.
    logos, i agree with this. I just like the description because it seems to be accurate to what i would need and want a person, a dual, to do for me. I don't really think there is an imbalance.. its seems like two people doing their own thing. You can't be unbalanced if you are comparing apples to oranges. ESFj has 10 oranges and i have 10 apples.

    all the descriptions seem to be bare bones. If you look at individual couples I think you'd see an ESFj in a dual relation as rich with activity and life.. it would be obvious that the INTj is blessed to be with this person, that this person is whole and complete on his own and happens to do a lot of things for the INTj that he or she appreciates greatly.

    EDIT: ok, the part about ESFj not understanding abstract fields might sound a little derogatory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    I dont think it seems imbalanced and I dont think either partner seems like a baby. People have their strenghts and their weaknesses and ideally they can harmoniously balance one another out and that's all there is to it. It is what it is.
    logos, i agree with this. I just like the description because it seems to be accurate to what i would need and want a person, a dual, to do for me. I don't really think there is an imbalance.. its seems like two people doing their own thing. You can't be unbalanced if you are comparing apples to oranges. ESFj has 10 oranges and i have 10 apples.

    all the descriptions seem to be bare bones. If you look at individual couples I think you'd see an ESFj in a dual relation as rich with activity and life.. it would be obvious that the INTj is blessed to be with this person, that this person is whole and complete on his own.
    Maybe you appreciate all that they do for you so much, that it seems like a imbalance, and they feel the same way?
    Also looking to who's writing it... I'm not sure if a ISFp has ever written a socionic description...
    just a point of clarification...i wasn't commenting as much on LII-ESE, i was commenting more on ILE-SEI meged description.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    yeah sunshine, i see now also that you were saying the ILE-SEI duality is imbalanced in favor of the SEI, thought it would be the other way because of how people were discussing the LII-ESE one.

    It's my favorite maybe because i can see it without taking offense since im not those types, i think hkkmr is right that the weaknesses are so glaring that it seems almost embarrasing and baby-like to those who actually have those weaknesses, since your dual seeking block is valued by you and severely lacking theoretically...

    What I like about your duality is that it sounds fun, and there seems to be more Se or something .. presented in a way that's not offensive to me.. my ideal relationship would be how it's described: "Ingenuousness, impulse of life and feelings represent the 'visiting card' of this dual pair. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by anamericancer
    Where is the ILE-SEI one?
    Found it: http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=11213&start=0

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