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Thread: Gimme Ti!

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    Kristiina's Avatar
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    Default Gimme Ti!

    Soo... ever since England, there has been a thought stuck in my head, but I'm unable to finish the thought because I get stuck in definitions. I'm trying to generalize all types according to the ego block. Seems like the same old, right? But there is the accepting and the producing and then on other hand there's functions that see the world (S/N) and there's functions that give evaluation (T/F) to what is seen. Things get even worse when you add introverted-extroverted functions... Does it mean that some people sense what happens inside them... but how is it different depending on whether it's accepting or producing. There's lots of questions, as you can see, but if you just answer them now, I'll get stuck again, so I'll just start at one place and start unraveling the thoughts from there.

    Not all Ti people have been capable in giving me the right kind of answers, few Te people give me very good Ti answers. I think my best bet is to try my luck with alpha NTs, because there aren't enough beta STs in the forum (FDG, you're welcome to join the discussion. ).



    Lets start with accepting extroverted S/N types. / as first function. This should be the most simple kind. Extroverted functions deal with information in the world (external as opposed to personal). They see things how things are. No illusions, just the world. At least in essence. There is the difference of what they consider to be "just the world". people think of the physical objects, thinks about what the objects could do. person sees a cat with sharp claws that could harm them (very physical and real), the person sees a cat who could harm them in certain circumstances.

    Both see the world as static, but they both want to induce change in it (EP temperament, Expat's explanation to the temperaments.) They both see cat as something that will be the same later on. The cat will be the same when it starts scratching people. It hasn't changed. Se/Ne is the accepting function, so this function in itself is supposed to gather information. This is like the eyes of the person. The person will see everything through Se/Ne. ...... So.... If they want to change and influence things around them, what function do they use? People don't move objects with eyes. Eyes are just for observing the world. What are the hands?
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    Creepy-bg

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    my brain started to hurt before I finished the first paragraph

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    Ti is Se/Ne's creative assistant, ready to move this, consider that, manipulate objects either by putting them in situations, next to others, or within a theoretical framework. I'll give an example of something very practical and real-life.

    • *The department I work in at the University was in desparate need of field placements for graduate students since they began to admit many more students in order to increase enrollment.
    *The agency I work for during the day has always resisted taking students due to limited return on their investment.

    • *However, the agency also identified problems in recruitment and retention. There are various reasons for the agency's recruitment and retention problems not the least of which is not taking student interns.
    *The university department has always had problems with placing students with agencies feeling limited return on their investment.

    • *By talking with the university department, I was able to help them to see that they may need to offer an incentive to agencies, especially since agencies might not have staff with the appropriate credentials to supervise students.
    *By talking with the agency I was able to help them see that their retention problems are in part due to their reluctance to develop a comprehensive student internship program, and to use the positive student experience to assist their post-master's recruitment process.

    [list]*The university ended up offering a financial incentive to the agency to take students; the agency ended up agreeing to open up a bunch of internship placements and identified several agency staff with the proper credentials who would be paid to supervise the whole raft of students placed at the agency.

    Now the Ne beauty in this whole scenario is from several years ago, before this all happened, when I saw all kinds of possibilities coming out of my dual involvements at the school and the agency. The Ti part of it is putting this deal together and setting up a structure. The typical ILE downside of this deal is that I personally didn't benefit from it at all, except for possibly looking powerful or charitable to my agency and the school, which may be a good long term strategy for me somehow, which I cannot see right now.


    An SLE would prolly make sure he/she got something out of the deal, right here and right now. If not himself, then definitely someone powerful and in a position to return a favor, I would think.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    No illusions, just the world
    One of the most common illusions is that what is right before your eyes is "the world". But I know that's not what you need to hear to feel comforted

    PS: This turned out to be longer than I expected, but so be it. If you can gain anything from it that's great. If not, try posting a better question, or just wait for an the betas.

    PPS: This post is a process, so you have to read all of it to understand where I'm coming from and then understand my conclusion.

    ================================================== =================
    ================================================== =================


    I'm trying to generalize all types according to the ego block
    A more primary layer of definition may be the quadras themselves. These seem the most evident distinctions
    • Beta|Gamma: Se/Ni
      Alpha|Delta: Si/Ne

      Alpha|Beta: Ti/Fe;
      Gamma|Delta: Te/Fi



    Seems like the same old, right? But there is the accepting and the producing and then on other hand there's functions that see the world (S/N) and there's functions that give evaluation (T/F) to what is seen.
    Consider them as rational or irrational groups. Rationals focus primarly on evaluation and definition, irrationals focus on 'seeing' as you say.

    • Using Alpha as an example:

      The ego block functions of the quadra are Ti and Ne, Fe and Si
      Ti and Ne are INTj and ENTp, Fe and Si are ESFj and ISFp
      The leading function accepts, and via the creative function the collected data is expressed.

      The ESFj evaluates with Fe and takes a course of action to manipulate Si (using Fe)
      The INTj evaluates with Ti and takes a course of action to manipulate Ne (using Ti)
      The ENTp "intuits" with Ne and takes a course of action to manipulate Ti (using Ne)
      The ISFp "sense" with Si and takes a course of action to manipulate Fe (using Si)


    The second(creative function) is the field or aspect of reality
    that leading function can best manipulate
    to implement the insights and opinions
    it makes as it accepts data.

    That is to say, the leading function accepts data, and the interpretation of that data results in how it tries to manipulate the second function.


    more examples:
    The LII interprets things through Ti, and based off of this interpretation, tries to change (the Ne aspects of reality) to improve the Ti situation.
    (Leading function is most important.)
    The LSI inteprets things through Ti, and based off of this interpretation, tries to change (the Se aspects of reality) to improve the Ti situation.


    ================================================== ==
    ================================================== ==


    One last thing, in terms of using the ego block to differentiate types:

    Think of the 16 individual types.
    Now, consider that out of those 16 types, there are 8 pairs of "leading functiosn".
    (that is to say, INTj and ISTj both have leading. ESFj and ENFj both have leading. And so on)
    So there are 8 possible leading functions.

    Now consider each function as having two possibilities:
    can either be differentiated into or , for the LSI or LII, respectively.

    For both the LSI and LII, the leading function is accepting and rational, therefore, the second function MUST be producing and irrational.
    The LSI and the LII both have two different takes on Ti, so they represent two different variations of what Ti is.

    So in this way, each type is not only a part of a quadra, but each type is also one differntiation of its leading function.


    ================================================== ==


    Now, let's go back to this:
    A more primary layer of definition may be the quadras themselves. These seem the most evident distinctions
    • Beta|Gamma: Se/Ni
      Alpha|Delta: Si/Ne

      Alpha|Beta: Ti/Fe;
      Gamma|Delta: Te/Fi
    Looking at the alpha and beta quadras, these two adjacent quadras exemplify the differntiation of their shared functions - Fe and Ti

    Code:
    (NE) - - - - INTj - - - - Ti - - - - ISTj - - - - (SE)
    (SI) - - - - ESFj - - - - Fe - - - - ENFj - - - - (NI)
    The LII and the LSI both feel responsible for the aspect of reality, yet they have two different ways of interpreting it, based on which creative/producing function is in their ego block.

    That is to say, the leading function accepts data, and the interpretation of that data results in how it tries to manipulate the second function.
    ...
    So in this way, each type is not only a part of a quadra, but each type is also one differntiation of its leading function.

    That's how I see things right now, that's what makes the most sense to me. I never really considered it until you asked, so I spent time working things out in this post so they make sense to me. Hopefully it carries over, but if not just ask more questions. It may be more tailored for an ESE, but I really don't know.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Auxilary information: my "Type Chain" thread
    http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...er=asc&start=0

    Code:
    enfp-entp-intj-istj-estp-esfp-isfj-infj-enfp
    
    istp-isfp-esfj-enfj-infp-intp-entj-estj-istp
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    How about doing this kind of over-simplified model...forget about the distinction between "judging" and "perceiving". See functions only as extroverted (those that interact with the external world) and introverted (those that are used to analyze or understand the information).

    Then we have a simple model:

    1. Get information in with some extroverted function
    2. Understand/analyze the information with some introverted function
    3. Affect the world with some extroverted function

    Most likely you will use your ego-block functions but you could also choose to use some other functions.

    E.g. in the case of ENFj (when relying only on ego-block):
    1. Get information in with Fe
    2. Understand the information with Ni
    3. Affect the world with Fe

    Same process happens with INFp but with the difference that ENFj spends more time taking information in and causing effects where INFp spends more time understanding the information. Subtypes have same kind of effect.

    Now technically you could switch functions there "on the fly".

    So ENFj could e.g.
    1. Get information in with Fe
    2. Understand information with Ni (or perhaps choose to use Ti)
    3. Affect world with Se (instead of Fe)
    however the effect would likely be less optimal than when using the strong Fe as effector.

    There might exist some additional rules which dictate how you can "chain" the functions and that you can't do it freely. I once had a more complex model in mind but it made my head hurt. Currently I stick with this one, lol. It is simple enough to be evaluated or applied in practice. It might be complete crap too, lol. At least it should be extended somehow I guess.

    Really I don't know if this is Ti or not. At least I gave it a shot, lol.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gimme Ti!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Lets start with accepting extroverted S/N types. / as first function. This should be the most simple kind. Extroverted functions deal with information in the world (external as opposed to personal). They see things how things are. No illusions, just the world. At least in essence. There is the difference of what they consider to be "just the world". people think of the physical objects, thinks about what the objects could do. person sees a cat with sharp claws that could harm them (very physical and real), the person sees a cat who could harm them in certain circumstances.
    This is a good description, but incomplete. The Se type perceives the physical qualities of an object, what's right in front of them ("the cat's claw is sharp"), and if the cat is going to scratch the Se type, he uses Si to avoid being scratched (sensing when the cat is physically tense, ready to attack). The Ne type assesses the abstract qualities of the object (so, for the cat's claw, one abstract quality, or potential use, would be "it can scratch"), and Ni subconsciously produces the consequences ("if I make this cat angry, I will probably get scratched and bleed").

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    Kristiina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ...forget about the distinction between "judging" and "perceiving".
    The entire point of the exercise is to build up a model of information starting with judging and perceiving. If ENFj uses Fe to gather information, it means that any information that the Fe/Te dominants "see" is always skewed, because these are the functions that give evaluation rather than just observe. But I'll get to that when I get to Fe/Te dominants.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    A more primary layer of definition may be the quadras themselves. These seem the most evident distinctions
    Also, the point of the exercise is that if we only use the ego block, it should divide people into clear halfs (judging/perceiving) and those groups into new halfs (introverted leading function/extroverted leading function). So there should be 4 clear groups - Se/Ne dominants, Si/Ni dominants, Fe/Te dominants, Fi/Ti dominants. Adding quadras messes up the system.

    diamond8 - It seems to make sense that the "producing" function makes the changes, but Ti/Fi are introverted functions and cannot change the world.




    The way I see it is that every information everywhere needs some rational function to understand it. Ti/Fi analyse what Se/Ne sees, but neither one can really react - Se/Ne is accepting (so it doesn't produce) and Ti/Fi is something that happens inside you. What you see outside of you (Ne) is used to create an opinion about it inside you (Ti)
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    my brain started to hurt before I finished the first paragraph
    Sarcasm: Oh this is how in super-ID works! Or did you mean that you are alpha NT?

    Real comment: Although I can't see the Ti quadra values in your comments about Ti eating your brain cells, I do see Ti-PoLR in these comments.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    shouldn't you be out burning Russians or something instead of harrasing me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    shouldn't you be out burning Russians or something instead of harrasing me?
    truth hurts? :wink:
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ...forget about the distinction between "judging" and "perceiving".
    The entire point of the exercise is to build up a model of information starting with judging and perceiving. If ENFj uses Fe to gather information, it means that any information that the Fe/Te dominants "see" is always skewed, because these are the functions that give evaluation rather than just observe. But I'll get to that when I get to Fe/Te dominants.
    I guess so. Is just bugs me that people use expressions like "he used Se" when someone is being forceful or that "he internalized the group emotional state with Fe". There a perceiving function is seemingly used to affect the environment and judging function to perceive it. So this makes me think you could simplify the model by just sort of dropping the judging and perceiving distinction and instead focusing more on extroversion and introversion of functions (extroverted being the ones interacting with the external world and introverted being the ones used for internal "reflection"). So it is a different approach. I started to entertain this idea when I got sort of stuck and annoyed about the "judging" and "perceiving" distinction. I have a model in mind for that case too but I don't like it.

    It would be nice to explain more about the "skewed" thingy at some point. I don't get it but it sounds like something I should get.

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    Ego block types have built up a database of objects over time using to , where they have determined the power\proper positions of objects, through observation. They use to order those objects according to what they see as proper in the external world - they see objects as having a hierarchy of power - if they are in the wrong places or doing the wrong thing, it's the Ego type's job to actively make sure they are doing the right thing.

    build up a model over time about objects they have observed using , but they use their to visualise objects doing things that wouldn't ordinarily been associated with those objects. A type thinks things should carry on doing what they also have been doing, whereas types may switch around the roles of objects. Making things do what they have been observed to do naturally is efficient and practical, and maintains the 'natural' order, whereas experimenting with things is less stable but may lead to establishing new ways of doing things.
    EII-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    Ego block types have built up a database of objects over time using to , where they have determined the power\proper positions of objects, through observation. They use to order those objects according to what they see as proper in the external world - they see objects as having a hierarchy of power - if they are in the wrong places or doing the wrong thing, it's the Ego type's job to actively make sure they are doing the right thing.

    build up a model over time about objects they have observed using , but they use their to visualise objects doing things that wouldn't ordinarily been associated with those objects. A type thinks things should carry on doing what they also have been doing, whereas types may switch around the roles of objects. Making things do what they have been observed to do naturally is efficient and practical, and maintains the 'natural' order, whereas experimenting with things is less stable but may lead to establishing new ways of doing things.
    yes that's what i said up there, using a practical example. can't you people get your head out of the theory for one fucking minute? :wink:

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ...forget about the distinction between "judging" and "perceiving".
    The entire point of the exercise is to build up a model of information starting with judging and perceiving. If ENFj uses Fe to gather information, it means that any information that the Fe/Te dominants "see" is always skewed, because these are the functions that give evaluation rather than just observe. But I'll get to that when I get to Fe/Te dominants.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    A more primary layer of definition may be the quadras themselves. These seem the most evident distinctions
    Also, the point of the exercise is that if we only use the ego block, it should divide people into clear halfs (judging/perceiving) and those groups into new halfs (introverted leading function/extroverted leading function). So there should be 4 clear groups - Se/Ne dominants, Si/Ni dominants, Fe/Te dominants, Fi/Ti dominants. Adding quadras messes up the system.

    diamond8 - It seems to make sense that the "producing" function makes the changes, but Ti/Fi are introverted functions and cannot change the world.




    The way I see it is that every information everywhere needs some rational function to understand it. Ti/Fi analyse what Se/Ne sees, but neither one can really react - Se/Ne is accepting (so it doesn't produce) and Ti/Fi is something that happens inside you. What you see outside of you (Ne) is used to create an opinion about it inside you (Ti)
    good luck. You're own your own with whatever you're trying to do.
    You don't seem to understand why I brought up quadras. But it seems like you are trying to do something totally different - so be it.



    extra:
    "Also, the point of the exercise is that if we only use the ego block, it should divide people into clear halfs (judging/perceiving)"
    -- every ego block HAS a judging and perceiving element in it. The only difference is the order, and that's what determines rationality or irrationality.

    Also, the point of the exercise is that if we only use the ego block, it should divide people into clear halfs (judging/perceiving) and those groups into new halfs (introverted leading function/extroverted leading function). So there should be 4 clear groups - Se/Ne dominants, Si/Ni dominants, Fe/Te dominants, Fi/Ti dominants. Adding quadras messes up the system.
    It messes up what you are trying to do in your mind, maybe. But it does not mess up the system - you don't even know what your system is. Anyway, if all you take away from my post is that I am using quadras, you should reread it.

    The entire point of the exercise is to build up a model of information starting with judging and perceiving. If ENFj uses Fe to gather information, it means that any information that the Fe/Te dominants "see" is always skewed, because these are the functions that give evaluation rather than just observe. But I'll get to that when I get to Fe/Te dominants.
    But don't you get that ANY type that interprets information is ALWAYS skewed? You don't seem to comprehend my earlier post at all. Did you read it?

    LII is skewed because it focuses on the Ne aspects of Ti (and neglects Se, its porl)
    LSI is skewed because it focuses on the Se aspects of Ti (and neglects Ne, its polr)
    It doesn't matter what type or what leading function is there

    ISFp is skewed because it focuses on the Fe aspects of Si (and neglects Te, its porl)
    ISTp is skewed because it focuses on the Te aspects of Si (and neglects Fe, its porl)

    You seem to have a sort of heiarchal belief that "SE and NE interpret reality flawlessly" --- that's not so. I disagree with your understanding of how functions interpret reality.
    The Se leadings are all very near sighted
    The Ne leadings are all far sighted

    ESTps focus on Se, yet their interpretation of Se is skewed because they like to focus on the Ti aspects and not Fi
    ESFps focus on Se, yet their interpretation of Se is skewed because they like to focus on the Fi aspects and not Ti

    etc etc etc
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Kristiina's Avatar
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    Ok, so there is Ti logic and there is Fi logic. Two different kinds, they have the same objective - to categorize and understand what goes on in the world seen by Se or Ne.

    The "producing" is a misleading term - it doesn't produce anything physical, it creates the thoughts. So the Se/Ne person observes the world as it is and the Fi/Ti creates ideas about what must be changed.

    Se/Ne accepts information that Fi/Ti systematizes and tells the person how to change the world so that it fits the system better. "Thing would be much better, if this happened" and they change it. The first functions have nothing to do with how they actually change the things. The first functions just give the ideology.

    This makes no sense.... When Fe people want something done, they try to sweet-talk people, Te people try to reason and Se people remind that they have authority... This means that while, the producing function gives the ideas of what must change, the accepting function still makes the changes.

    Does that mean that "accepting" function is also misleading as it doesn't just accept information - it mediates all interaction between the person and the world, or more like it mediates all information flow between their creative function Fi/Ti and the world. All incoming and outgoing information goes through Se/Ne?
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Default Re: Gimme Ti!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    ..... So.... If they want to change and influence things around them, what function do they use?[
    The ego-block functions are the ones that naturally filter information. If people see something and are asked to naturally react to it, they will use their ego-block. The way that information is filtered through the ego-block will shape the reaction and, if they are asked what to do, the call for action:

    Look at the homeless person. How can he be helped?
    NeFi: Tell him about the options to better his life.
    FeSi: Help him to make it back into society/ become more acceptable and then change his life from there.
    TeNi: Show him the course of action and help him utilize the option that is most applicable/efficient in his situation

    etc.

    The course of action is therefore determined by how the ego-block functions assess the situation. The course of action itself will probably utilize a variety of functions since we switch between function as required by the situation. So to change and influence things, no type can rely on a single function. The functions will be determined by what the situation requires.

    Or so I believe.

    You are probably not looking for something like this, but it popped into my head and I thought I'd throw it out there.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Kristiina's Avatar
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    Kim, that's a very helpful post and it works very well with my mindset of things.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Se/Ne accepts information that Fi/Ti systematizes and tells the person how to change the world so that it fits the system better.
    No, I disagree.
    Ok, so there is Ti logic and there is Fi logic. Two different kinds, they have the same objective - to categorize and understand what goes on in the world seen by Se or Ne.
    Absolutely not, I disagree. Se and Ne are not the only function that accepts information, or interpret reality. And Fi is not "logic".

    Think of the leading function as a lens, glasses.
    When you have Ti glasses on, you interpret the raw reality data through Ti. You do not use Se and Ne to interpret data, that is another function
    When Ti is your leading function, you use that as your lens to accept information. The secondary function deals with that aspect of reality (either Se or Ne for Ti leading), and manipulates it.

    I do not agree that you only interpret information with "Se or Ne".


    The course of action is therefore determined by how the ego-block functions assess the situation. The course of action itself will probably utilize a variety of functions since we switch between function as required by the situation. So to change and influence things, no type can rely on a single function. The functions will be determined by what the situation requires.
    Which is what I've been saying, yes.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Look at the homeless person. How can he be helped?
    NeFi: Tell him about the options to better his life.
    FeSi: Help him to make it back into society/ become more acceptable and then change his life from there.
    TeNi: Show him the course of action and help him utilize the option that is most applicable/efficient in his situation
    And what functions I utilize when I give them some money so they can have at least one fun day in their life That's pretty much my skillset in regards to homeless people. I can also try to act in a positive way and not in "eeew! homeless person! go away!" kind of way to get them in a party mood (or more generally to make them feel like they are sort of accepted). It depends on if they threaten me with a gun or not though, lol (it has happened actually although it wasn't a real gun in the end).

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    Default Re: Gimme Ti!

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Look at the homeless person. How can he be helped?
    NeFi: Tell him about the options to better his life.
    FeSi: Help him to make it back into society/ become more acceptable and then change his life from there.
    TeNi: Show him the course of action and help him utilize the option that is most applicable/efficient in his situation
    And what functions I utilize when I give them some money so they can have at least one fun day in their life That's pretty much my skillset in regards to homeless people. I can also try to act in a positive way and not in "eeew! homeless person! go away!" kind of way to get them in a party mood (or more generally to make them feel like they are sort of accepted). It depends on if they threaten me with a gun or not though, lol (it has happened actually although it wasn't a real gun in the end).
    The red part made me think ESTj: a practical approach (Te?) to ensure his/her immediate well-being but with no concern for the long term (Ni PoLR). But then the "fun day" part throws that off a bit. This does not really sound ESTj for some reason...I am not sure.
    The blue part ESFj: using Fe to make him feel that he belongs and is accepted. Also no concern with long term. I coould also see ISFp for this one.

    The first example could also be ESFj (and one does not need great Te to think of giving money) while the second is hardly ESTj, so overall, ESFj it is!
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    I get them stoned and buy them a cheeseburger or something with a coke. There used to be this group of really cool homeless guys who hung out at one of the parks in town in this stand of trees and bushes. There were maybe six or seven of them all with dogs and stuff. We'd go there with weed and hang out with them getting them high and they'd play guitar for us and we'd play frisbee catch with their dogs... those were good times... then the city started getting all fascist on the homeless and carting them off to downtown where it's all shitty crackheads and gangsters or even worse arresting them... the fucking man, man! I still get in fights with my mom over that kind of thinking... "their better off in jail where they get fed and get a roof over their heads" errrrrr.... Those guys were doing just fine out there until people started fucking with their routine. It pisses me off.

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    (Sorry for the digression)
    Whenever I think of homeless people, especially the young and able-bodied ones, I'm not sympathetic about their predicament, and I don't see the need to help them when they couldn't help themselves in the first place. They are probably too lazy to work and prefer to indulge in self pity and seek welfare instead. If they had managed their lives better in the first place, they would not have ended up in such a desperate situation. It's all about cause and effect. Therefore, I think we shouldn't waste our time with them and spend more time with people who are more in need such as those with physical disabilities, the elderly, and others who will be more appreciative and benefit more from our help.

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    I don't see it as a matter of helping them or giving charity... alot of them are really cool people that I feel I'm better for having met and spent time with. Upstanding society can go fuck itself, just a bunch of "gotta be productive!" pricks for the most part anyways. I'll take an afternoon in a back alley smoking pot with a bum over a night in a club full of drunk plastic people anyday.

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    I agree with the 'plastic people' analogy. Used to be some homeless people in Canterbury where I went to college (might not be any there now, I dunno) but I never hung around with them or anything. Too loud and different. Usually see them drunk or drinking... but I guess it may be the only thing they have going for them. Live and let live.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I get them stoned and buy them a cheeseburger or something with a coke. There used to be this group of really cool homeless guys who hung out at one of the parks in town in this stand of trees and bushes. There were maybe six or seven of them all with dogs and stuff. We'd go there with weed and hang out with them getting them high and they'd play guitar for us and we'd play frisbee catch with their dogs... those were good times... then the city started getting all fascist on the homeless and carting them off to downtown where it's all shitty crackheads and gangsters or even worse arresting them... the fucking man, man! I still get in fights with my mom over that kind of thinking... "their better off in jail where they get fed and get a roof over their heads" errrrrr.... Those guys were doing just fine out there until people started fucking with their routine. It pisses me off.
    I agree and I don't understand why people have such an issue with all of this. There are a lot of panhandlers in the town I live in and it's a constant issue. Geez people, give money or don't. Nobody is forcing you. I was talking to a homeless guy the other day and he told me how a group of college kids had a sign up at an intersection reading "honk if you hate bums." WTF!?

    It's because people are delusional enough to believe that everyone "can be what s/he wants to be." Yeah right, with a minimum wage nobody can live off, medical and mental health services that nobody can afford, veterans who are just dumped back into their lives, and so on. And then they can't even let people live as well as they can on the street. It seems as if societies can't exist without at least one group to designate the "bad deviants."
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    (Sorry for the digression)
    Whenever I think of homeless people, especially the young and able-bodied ones, I'm not sympathetic about their predicament, and I don't see the need to help them when they couldn't help themselves in the first place. They are probably too lazy to work and prefer to indulge in self pity and seek welfare instead. If they had managed their lives better in the first place, they would not have ended up in such a desperate situation. It's all about cause and effect. Therefore, I think we shouldn't waste our time with them and spend more time with people who are more in need such as those with physical disabilities, the elderly, and others who will be more appreciative and benefit more from our help.
    The problem with this entire piece is the initial erroneous assumption which forms the cause to your effect.
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    Default Re: Gimme Ti!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Look at the homeless person. How can he be helped?
    NeFi: Tell him about the options to better his life.
    FeSi: Help him to make it back into society/ become more acceptable and then change his life from there.
    TeNi: Show him the course of action and help him utilize the option that is most applicable/efficient in his situation
    And what functions I utilize when I give them some money so they can have at least one fun day in their life That's pretty much my skillset in regards to homeless people. I can also try to act in a positive way and not in "eeew! homeless person! go away!" kind of way to get them in a party mood (or more generally to make them feel like they are sort of accepted). It depends on if they threaten me with a gun or not though, lol (it has happened actually although it wasn't a real gun in the end).
    The red part made me think ESTj: a practical approach (Te?) to ensure his/her immediate well-being but with no concern for the long term (Ni PoLR). But then the "fun day" part throws that off a bit. This does not really sound ESTj for some reason...I am not sure.
    The blue part ESFj: using Fe to make him feel that he belongs and is accepted. Also no concern with long term. I coould also see ISFp for this one.

    The first example could also be ESFj (and one does not need great Te to think of giving money) while the second is hardly ESTj, so overall, ESFj it is!
    I can finally see the light I think I need to add more smilies to my palette now. INTjs here I come. First I will conquer UDP and then...ooooh there is so many of them around and I want to have them all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    (Sorry for the digression)
    Whenever I think of homeless people, especially the young and able-bodied ones, I'm not sympathetic about their predicament, and I don't see the need to help them when they couldn't help themselves in the first place. They are probably too lazy to work and prefer to indulge in self pity and seek welfare instead. If they had managed their lives better in the first place, they would not have ended up in such a desperate situation. It's all about cause and effect. Therefore, I think we shouldn't waste our time with them and spend more time with people who are more in need such as those with physical disabilities, the elderly, and others who will be more appreciative and benefit more from our help.
    The problem with this entire piece is the initial erroneous assumption which forms the cause to your effect.
    Agreed. What she wrote sounds so not INFj too. Maybe Eunice you should do some research into homelessness or better yet, talk with some homeless people. You might find it interesting and perhaps you might also become somewhat more empathetic towards them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I'll take an afternoon in a back alley smoking pot with a bum over a night in a club full of drunk plastic people anyday.
    Absolutely!
    Socionics: XNFx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Agreed. What she wrote sounds so not INFj too. Maybe Eunice you should do some research into homelessness or better yet, talk with some homeless people. You might find it interesting and perhaps you might also become somewhat more empathetic towards them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I'll take an afternoon in a back alley smoking pot with a bum over a night in a club full of drunk plastic people anyday.
    Absolutely!
    That is a seriously biased aristocratic statement! It assumes all people in night clubs are "drunk" and "plastic" and all bums in back alleys are "cool". I'm sure I can find you a plastic person you love and a bum that you hate and vice versa. Neither group is one big blob!

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Agreed. What she wrote sounds so not INFj too. Maybe Eunice you should do some research into homelessness or better yet, talk with some homeless people. You might find it interesting and perhaps you might also become somewhat more empathetic towards them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I'll take an afternoon in a back alley smoking pot with a bum over a night in a club full of drunk plastic people anyday.
    Absolutely!
    That is a seriously biased aristocratic statement! It assumes all people in night clubs are "drunk" and "plastic" and all bums in back alleys are "cool". I'm sure I can find you a plastic person you love and a bum that you hate and vice versa. Neither group is one big blob!
    fucking programmers :wink:

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    honestly though it was just a bit of an overraction to Eunice... she hit a chord or something inside me. I know the vast majority of people in clubs are just people. I really don't have anything against them. Hell, as far as I'm concerned go out and have fun... be as serrious as productive as vapid or as broke and homeless as you want. we're all still people in the end, nobody's worth more than anyone else as far I'm concerned. Whatever gets a person through the day, ya know? Two of one six of the other. The early bird gets the worm. E pluribus unum, caveat emptor and all that.

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    yeah, i could see an IxFj saying that, no problem. I also could see an INFj looking into the specific reasons why a particular homeless person arrived at his particular position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Agreed. What she wrote sounds so not INFj too. Maybe Eunice you should do some research into homelessness or better yet, talk with some homeless people. You might find it interesting and perhaps you might also become somewhat more empathetic towards them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I'll take an afternoon in a back alley smoking pot with a bum over a night in a club full of drunk plastic people anyday.
    Absolutely!
    That is a seriously biased aristocratic statement! It assumes all people in night clubs are "drunk" and "plastic" and all bums in back alleys are "cool". I'm sure I can find you a plastic person you love and a bum that you hate and vice versa. Neither group is one big blob!
    fucking programmers :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX

    That is a seriously biased aristocratic statement! It assumes all people in night clubs are "drunk" and "plastic" and all bums in back alleys are "cool". I'm sure I can find you a plastic person you love and a bum that you hate and vice versa. Neither group is one big blob!
    I think I now see the way you read that statement but I read it in a different way and I certainly did not get the assumption you got from it. Of course not all bums are "cool" and not all people in night clubs are "plastic"... I do not think that is what bionic was implying. However, assuming a situation where the choices were between "cool" bums and "plastic" people, I know which would be easier for me to deal with.

    That I am not particularly tolerant of people like Eunice's attitude to homelessness was the main point.
    Socionics: XNFx
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    I don't dislike homeless people in general, just the ones who had an attitude problem which I had described earlier on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    Whenever I think of homeless people, especially the young and able-bodied ones, I'm not sympathetic about their predicament, and I don't see the need to help them when they couldn't help themselves in the first place. They are probably too lazy to work and prefer to indulge in self pity and seek welfare instead. If they had managed their lives better in the first place, they would not have ended up in such a desperate situation. It's all about cause and effect. Therefore, I think we shouldn't waste our time with them and spend more time with people who are more in need such as those with physical disabilities, the elderly, and others who will be more appreciative and benefit more from our help.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX

    That is a seriously biased aristocratic statement! It assumes all people in night clubs are "drunk" and "plastic" and all bums in back alleys are "cool". I'm sure I can find you a plastic person you love and a bum that you hate and vice versa. Neither group is one big blob!
    I think I now see the way you read that statement but I read it in a different way and I certainly did not get the assumption you got from it. Of course not all bums are "cool" and not all people in night clubs are "plastic"... I do not think that is what bionic was implying. However, assuming a situation where the choices were between "cool" bums and "plastic" people, I know which would be easier for me to deal with.

    That I am not particularly tolerant of people like Eunice's attitude to homelessness was the main point.
    Yes. I disagree with Eunice attitude too. Even though I perhaps don't necessarily disagree with the core message (that you are responsible for your actions and choices in the end) I do disagree with the way it is presented and the way their human value is somehow indirectly degraded.

    But hey plastic people and discos can still be cool!

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