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Thread: ESIs-ISFjs and stubbornness: resisting doing what they are told to do

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    Default ESIs-ISFjs and stubbornness: resisting doing what they are told to do

    I've noticed that the ISFjs I know well really cannot be told what to do by most people. They pretty much do what they think they should do, regardless of whether or not it's what someone else is pressuring them to do. They aren't confrontational about it... more like... strong willed? (And they don't like to be rushed or pressured even if they do intend on doing it?). They may tend avoid unnecessary confrontation (especially with people they don't know well), but not at the expense of doing something they've decided they shouldn't do. They may just ignore the person's requests, or they may say they're not going to do it (as opposed to an INTj I know who almost always says he will and then just doesn't get around to it ), or they may briefly explain why they don't feel they should do it.

    Do you think this is a type trait, or more of a coincidence? Keep in mind that you may not notice the ISFjs you know irl doing this unless you're in their "inner circle".

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    ISFjs have short range Se, right? Negativists will have a long range dominant function?

    Socionics function: black sensing - force - volitional sensorics
    outward traits of object - shape, old vs. young, worth or cost, appearance, energy of object, strength, readiness, willpower, mobilization
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    Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession;
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    Definitely. I keep trying to tell my girlfriend to eat more healthily, and to stop drinking so much Cola. She pretty much just nods, and does it anyway. It's infuriating that she doesn't seem to want to look after herself.
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    Default Re: pressuring ISFjs to do something

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    as opposed to an INTj I know who almost always says he will and then just doesn't get around to it
    Truly something an area where LIIs must develop. Lacking in this area is a grave fault, for human interaction and real understanding of theory as well.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Depends on how reasonable is the argument you give them. Personally, I have no problem getting them to do things that are actually useful for the purpose they want to reach. I think that probably you, Joy, might have more trouble with that given your complete unwillingness to give any logical explanation for your affirmations.
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    Actually, I've never had this problem with ISFjs. I've seen ISFjs behave this way with most people though, which is why I started this thread.
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    Default Re: pressuring ISFjs to do something

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I've noticed that the ISFjs I know well really cannot be told what to do by most people.
    My last boss was an ISFj, and this is exactly how he was. I wanted lots of changes and innovations ~ he was definitely "the Conservator." We clashed all the time, yet had emotional rapport. It was very strange. Incredibly frustrating. No degree of diplomacy could get him to budge. I felt completely demoralized - I had NO influence, felt like I was being treated like a two-year-old, worked little (he wouldn't delegate/keep me busy), and so wasn't able to contribute hardly a thing. (Normally I have a lot of independence at past positions I've held with a reputation as a high achiever, so this was all quite a shock ... until I jumped ship.) Anyway, it was his way, in his timing, and he needed the absolute sense of security that everything would still be "normal" after a change (which, incidentally, would not be normative at a collective social level of manifestation, rather, seemingly normal to HIM, because that's what he was used to ... but he couldn't see that, and thought the former to be true). He'd delay changes for months and finally come up with a lame excuse to not go ahead with it after all. I think his was too high and being negatively manifested - i.e., his needed another round of deeper development.

    He was also avoiding aesthetic issues. Didn't care, even when it DID matter and was obviously so to most everyone else! It was strange. You'd think the world would come to an end if we changed the slightest, most arbitrary thing. He seemed to have little imagination, also. Couldn't visualize how things would appear until you presented it complete before him - only to have him knock it down anyway and stick with the same ol` stuff. In private, he was pretty vocal about not caring what other people thought. Though relatively young in appearance, on the inside he was a regular grumbling curmudgeon! (It was even kind of cute, in a weird way!) He also had a fear of things being "strange" or "original" and was quick to call people crackpots at the slightest display of independent thinking. Surely, I must've been high on his list.

    Another ISFj I knew for years on a personal level never manifested these qualities at all. But we never had to work on pragmatic issues together. He was always rather agreeable and easygoing. Physiologically, he strongly resembled my last boss, as well as in his facial expressions, gestures, and manner of speaking (including word choice).

    Then there is another ISFj family member who was not like my last boss, either. Seems like she would follow direction AS LONG AS she feels loyalty, respect, and responsibility due to a clearly defined social role for the "requestor" - and then would thoroughly enjoy following through. Come to think of it, the ol` boss was PROBABLY that way, too. Though, like I said, he always got nervous when requests were made to change anything outside his comfort zone. This other ISFj - she innovates on the job a lot, reorganizing systems when she can - albeit per her ideas. Hmm. She is VERY independent. She doesn't even like it when someone else drives ... it's got to be her behind the wheel. And she's stubborn as a mule at home.

    All in all, it probably depends on the ISFj, their relationship with the requestor, and how psychologically healthy they are at the time. In other words, a potential pitfall for the type. Perhaps that's why the ENTj is their dual - the ultimate, umm ... well, let's just say that if anyone can get someone to do something, perhaps it is the ENTJ?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Depends on how reasonable is the argument you give them. Personally, I have no problem getting them to do things that are actually useful for the purpose they want to reach. I think that probably you, Joy, might have more trouble with that given your complete unwillingness to give any logical explanation for your affirmations.
    In my experience Joy explains herself pretty well most of the time.

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    FDG's right on. Personally, I think ISFj will listen to advice if it comes from someone they feel is an expert on the subject. They might have a hard time changing their daily habits but if you work at it with them, you've got a worthwhile chance. On the other hand, changing their ideological views is damn near impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speakeasy
    On the other hand, changing their ideological views is damn near impossible.
    why would you want to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by speakeasy
    On the other hand, changing their ideological views is damn near impossible.
    why would you want to?
    If you didn't agree with someone else's social or political views, find them too conservative or too liberal, wouldn't you want to change their views? Or at least alter them slightly?

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    No. Unless they only believe that stuff cause someone told them to, in which case I would challenge it and try to get them to come up with beliefs of their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakeasy
    FDG's right on. Personally, I think ISFj will listen to advice if it comes from someone they feel is an expert on the subject. They might have a hard time changing their daily habits but if you work at it with them, you've got a worthwhile chance. On the other hand, changing their ideological views is damn near impossible.

    100% on the dot

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    Quote Originally Posted by speakeasy
    On the other hand, changing their ideological views is damn near impossible.
    I disagree somewhat, it's mostly that they usually lack a definite ideology - the opinions given are related not related so they can't be technically defined as "ideology".

    Joy: I tend to think that my beliefs are right because I usually put a lot of thought into them before they get to be considered "correct". So I always try to propagate them.
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    Fi is just as much ideology as Ti. It's not nearly as intellectualized, but it's certainly just as dogmatic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Fi is just as much ideology as Ti. It's not nearly as intellectualized, but it's certainly just as dogmatic.
    Yeah, but it's not consistent, so it can't really be "changed" entirely
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Fi is just as much ideology as Ti. It's not nearly as intellectualized, but it's certainly just as dogmatic.
    Yeah, but it's not consistent, so it can't really be "changed" entirely
    That's a funny way of looking at it.

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    I've noticed this. My sisters ISFj boyfriend has very strong willpower, and a good sense of what's wright or wrong. He's never smoked, and never had a sip of alcohol in his whole entire life, while all his best friends smoke pot and get drunk all the time. It's also impossible for my sister to convince him to do something he doesn't want to do, like go with her to some event or something (my sister has absolutely no talent at convincing people to do things). They've kind of made a little game out of it; my sister will ask him a stupid question, and he will get annoyed and refuse to answer, while she'll get equally annoyed that he refuses to answer her retarded questions... It's funny to watch.
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    i also don't like being pressured or rushed too much. for example, a big project in school, the time/deadline given to me should be reasonable. i think many isfj's are perfectionists, i don't like the things i do to be rushed and i want it to be well-made and presentable. also, most isfj's are sensitive. if someone is pressuring them, it should be done nicely.

    one thing don't like about change is the pressure. especially, when something is to be changed, and they don't give an early notice. I'm not mentally/emotionally prepared.

    we want the things we do to be organized.

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    i also don't like being pressured or rushed too much. for example, a big project in school, the time/deadline given to me should be reasonable. i think many isfj's are perfectionists, i don't like the things i do to be rushed and i want it to be well-made and presentable. also, most isfj's are sensitive. if someone is pressuring them, it should be done nicely.

    one thing don't like about change is the pressure. especially, when something is to be changed, and they don't give an early notice. I'm not mentally/emotionally prepared.

    we want the things we do to be organized.

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    I don't like being rushed at all either. I like to do a good job but when pressure is put on me it adds a lot of stress. I can't stand when people try to tell me what to do lol. I have no problem doing things when asked. I think in part because I feel that I have my own time frame when asked and am under someone elses time fram when told. I seem to have a BIG problem doing things that seem impractical to me. For example my mom is a clean freak and often times I stubbornly refuse to help because I don't think you have to vaccum three times a week. I also can't stand being manipulated. I don't know I think I just like to be in control lol.
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    This is true for me. I try not to be passive aggressive about it and just tell people I don't want to do something. I tend to refuse to make phone calls at work if people don't give me enough information and I'm expected to improvise. When I was at school I was really good at not doing any homework, but I regret that now because when I got to college I wasn't very good at studying...And it used to piss people off at the time.

    As an adult I'll never do anything if I feel it is unreasonable or unnecessary, and people generally respect my judgement. Other people should be more like that, people tend to take shit from their bosses but then just suck it up and do as their told, but that sets a bad precedent because it normalizes it and they're only going to push what is acceptable further later on.

    I'm probably just a terrible employee of course. I want to be self employed or run my own business eventually mainly so nobody can tell me what to do.

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    ESIs sound pretty horrible from these responses.. :/

    I'm also stubborn and don't like being told what to do unless I respect the other person and then I *might* do it...but depends whether if the request is reasonable or not.

    That being said I'm also pretty laidback and if it's not a big deal--why not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    ESIs sound pretty horrible from these responses.. :/
    The culture at my workplace sucks, the people I work with are the most negative draining lazy bitchy passive-aggressive people I have honestly ever met. I was probably having a bad day when I wrote that.

    I used to work part time at a department store where I got asked to do all kinds of crappy jobs that I had no problem doing, like cleaning toilets and fighting spiders off me in the warehouse. My attitude outside of work now is to pretty much say yes to everything and agree to as much as possible.

    Anyway, if the title was ISTj's and stubbornness these would be nothing

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    My ESI cousin craves and takes on challenging and often financially awkward business ventures and when her ESE sistwr tries to get her to think things through better and to pursue opportunity that will not put too much strain on her energy my ESI cousin completely ignores it. Not only is she already ignoring Fe but she now devalues Si and these business ventures often end up being more work than reward which is too bad because my ESI deserves more...to be successful and well established. She takes on a lot of work but then a lot of what she does she actually enjoys so although she does this to helpfully be successful she also does this because of poor business logic.

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    stubborn is a value neutral term to me. its common for people around you to just be asses who shouldnt be listenened to.

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    Whats your job

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Whats your job
    I work for a college with a not brilliant reputation, there is a culture of laziness and irresponsibility and it ends up creating a lot of negativity. It's due to bad management. I'm planning on leaving ASAP and I don't really like complaining about it to people, so that's why I do it on the internet anonymously-ish(-:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ainfigur View Post
    I work for a college with a not brilliant reputation, there is a culture of laziness and irresponsibility and it ends up creating a lot of negativity. It's due to bad management. I'm planning on leaving ASAP and I don't really like complaining about it to people, so that's why I do it on the internet anonymously-ish(-:

    You're anonymous. none of us know anything about you. except ^ that. and that you are strangely competitive with your friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    and that you are strangely competitive with your friends.
    Just that one weird guy:/ but not generally.

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    .
    Last edited by Chains; 09-05-2015 at 05:02 AM.

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