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Thread: Dune (novels)

  1. #1
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    Default Dune (novels)

    I've been considering the series and find it hard to put types to the characters. I think Frank Herbert might be a little weak on naturally incorporating types into his writting. But just in case somebody else find's it easier I thought I'd make a thread on it. There's so many different characters in the series my list would never end if I put them all. So I'll stick to the original series (no prequals) and just choose some of my fav's. I don't have types for alot of them because of what I said above. Just fishing for anybody elses opinions here


    Paul
    Chani
    Liet Kynes - gamma NT
    Stilgar - ESTj or ISTj
    Baron Vladimir Harkonnen - ESTp
    Leto II (God Emperor) - for what it's worth they portrayed him as very ENFp in the miniseries on scifi I thought. However I don't think it was very true to the novels in this respect
    Moneo
    Duncan Idaho (my absolute fav character and in some ways I think the true focus of the series (at least from a character standpoint) - ESFp maybe??? (final gholla seems different though, maybe ENTp)
    Teg - ENTp (maybe delta ST instead?)
    Murbella - ENFj???
    Sheanna - ENFp perhaps
    Count Fenring - INTp?
    Baron Vladimir Harkonnen - ESTp
    Darwi Odrade - ENFp or perhaps ESFp
    Bellonda - INTp!

    like I said... I don't have types for alot of them and the ones I do are very vague impressions so any input is welcome. (and feel free to add your favorites)

    BTW I said novels in the title but if all you've seen are the movie or miniseries feel free to chime in (but say thats what you're basing you typings off of since they altered the characters a bit)

    /edit actually I've been able to come up with some types with some continueing consideration

  2. #2
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    I only read the first four original books.

    I think --

    Leto II the God-Emperor - ENTj
    Paul Atreides - INTp
    Jessica - ISFj
    Duke Leto - ESTj perhaps
    Chani - ESFp
    Shaddam IV - ISTj
    Stilgar - ISTj
    Baron Harkonnen - Se EP
    Alia - ENFj
    Duncan Idaho - perhaps ESFp
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I agree ENFj seems really good for Alia

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    Piter, the Baron's Mentat - INTj
    Thufir Hawat, the Duke's Mentat - ISTj
    Gurney Halleck - ISTp or ISTj
    "Beast" Rabban - Se EP
    Dr Kynes - agreed, Gamma NT
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    It is humorous to see how people of different quadras type the same fictional characters.

    Paul Atreides: INTj
    Chani: ESFj
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Maybe Paul is INTp but Muad'dib is INTj?
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    If that were to be the case of a double-type identity, I would actually suggest the reverse.
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    I don't know... Muad'dib has a very determined streak to him when he decides to overthrow the Harkonnen on Arakis.

    Even looking at the leadership aspects, it shows a certain altering of how he thinks.
    INTP/ILI(Ni) /5w4

    "When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
    Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."

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    Paul seems to value more than , as evident by how he is often concerned not so much by what the Fremen rituals and religious traditions are, but the principles of why they do them. This sort of thinking is also used by Paul very often throughout the series as he analysizes the internal structure and reasoning behind the acts (gom jabbar). He also acts more as an infantile (Alpha NT) rather than a victim (Gamma NT) during the Fremen Bene Gesserit ceremony after party. In addition, Paul generally views the Fremen in terms of their potential () in reaching his desired result. Furthermore, while Paul does have strong , he often ignores his in favor of future possibilities. and he belives that he can change or redirect the future state, which is more of a characterisitic of and Alpha NTs specifically. He is also not as fatalistic as most INTps. He was also unable to bring himself to commit humanity to the Golden Path out of a fear of the cost to his own self ( - transformation into a sandworm) as well as what he saw as a condemnation of humanity to a single path (). It was only his ENTj son who had the willingness to undergo the Golden Path.

    Chani may not be the most typical of ESFjs, but then again she also grew up in an atypical Fremen environment, and Chani reflects the ESFj nature of this very harsh Fremen world.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    wow that was a really good analysis. I'm sold

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    That was a good case for Paul as INTj, indeed.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I read page 1 of the first Dune novel a week or so ago, gave up, and carried on reading the Stranger In A Strange Land book...I'll try to get back to it though .
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I read page 1 of the first Dune novel a week or so ago, gave up, and carried on reading the Stranger In A Strange Land book...I'll try to get back to it though .
    I grok you won't.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I read page 1 of the first Dune novel a week or so ago, gave up, and carried on reading the Stranger In A Strange Land book...I'll try to get back to it though .
    I grok you won't.
    I'm gonna try and use 'grok' more frequently in conversations . There's a review on the back of the Dune book by Arthur C. Clarke comparing it to the Lord of the Rings books - I see that, with all the unusual words, and a whole new world etc. - but I don't feel as compelled to read it as with LOTR .
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

  16. #16
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    FWIW IMO the novels are only good once you've gotten into reading them... like by the fourth or so when it's in the reign on the God Emperor. That's about when the scope of it starts setting in. I had a rough time reading the first one myself and it took me a few years of off and on trying. Finally one day I had absolutely nothing else to read so I went at it... anyways, I got hooked eventually... now I've read them all, along with the prequils and the final two of the original Dune series written by his son. I can see where people would have a hard time getting nearly that far into them... but it is worth it, I promise.

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    Default Frank Herbert



    Nothing but an Ni valuer will do. The Dune series, and most of his other novels (I've read them all), are the epitome of introverted intuition.

    Look at the Bene Geserit, a group of people who have been breed over centuries to notice the tiny minuete body language expressions of others. They manipulate with tone of voice, the read into the past behaviours of others and project their cognitions
    into the future. Even eating the spice gives them access to the thousands of generations of people's consciousness from the past. I guess these traits could be prescribed to Ni, Fe information. Then there are the mentats, people who are breed to value logical, order, rationality, truth, mathematics, politics, government. They think like machines, calculate like computers. The are both types of logicals, both the logics of action and the logics of structure. Mentats are Te/Ti. Then you have the Fremen, the indigenious people who populate Dune. They are tough, desert hardened, showing quick mercy, but also quick loyalties and brief positive emotions. They live in the here and now, the present, judgding others for "the good of the tribe". They are aware of strength, weakness, they are bold, truthful, engaged, courageous. I guess they could be said to represent informational elements like Se. Being as they are superstitious, suseptable to religious influence and primarily cognizant of aspect of time and the efforts to terraform their planet, I would say they are from a Beta/Gamma quadra value lines.

    Overall I would place the Dune series at least somewhere in Beta and Gamma. The Fe in Alpha is more generous whereas in Beta, like in the novels, its more used as a tool for manipulation. Herbert's novels are studed with ethics of relations juxtaposed beside brutal harsh realities, like those found on a uncomfortable desert planet like Dune. People are often aware and cognizant of their physical states. These characters are seen as superior in their society and I guess this would correlate with Si. So dune has Fe, Ni, Se, Si, Fi, Te, Ti themes running throughout it. Something for everyone. I would say, though, that for the most part the novels are very introverted intuition. The style of language used is very much free association with little actual descriptive details of the world in particular, such as like what the building look like. The characters struggle with the weight of history and past deeds, the protagonist Paul is trying to change the course of history and the consistent status quo. He is literally the first human being who was capable of stepping out of time.

    In regards to the author Frank Herbert, I would say no matter what kind of logical type he might be (thats still remains to be seen), he must definitely is highly cognizant and proficient in introverted intuition.

    The thing with books is that its overall theme, including the politics and duty, and manipulation, is this sense of scale. This empire and the people within it are dramatized as players within a broader context. I think this is essentially introverted intuition, seeing the complete picture and scope of the broader socio-econimic and cultural perspectives. It's this sense of scale, of standing outside of the very world his narration seeks to participate within, is essentially how I see introverted sensing applied in the form of writing.

    Herbert had an very comprehensive imagination to write this kind of science fiction he did before any other author had attempted to so completely. He verily described the inner workings and outer cultural components of his fictional Dune Universe. Few other atuhors before him, such as JRR Tolkein had done the same. Although Tolkein was an Ne/ Fi type.

    Herbert drew from mutlple avaneus of human endeavour like history, culture, religion, sexual freedoms, the roles of people within societies and the effects of government and control as well as the effects of ecology on the species living within it. This might sound like an Ne approach, drawing from many disciplines of humanities and science, sure.

    However, the style in which Herbert employs while narrating are essentially discussing "cause and effect". His themes are illuminating the cause and effect of human action. Cause and effect of religions playing on peoples sense of duty, prophecy, societal control. There are the cause and effect of power within governments, the effects of the ruling class on the poor. They talk about the cause and effect of sexuality and how this relates to men and women. They are about the cause and effects of religion on individuals and ending at the grand scale of mutiple societies stretching across multiple solar systems. The cause and effects of environment on culture and economics. It's these overarching grand schemes that are the epitome of Ni.

    Further, Herbert writes in a stream of consciousness omniscient narration whereby he very craftly describes his worlds not outright, such as saying this city "looked like this", or that man was wearing "these types of clothing". His narration is predominately intuitive in nature. He describes intangible human styles of cognition, behaviour, the ever changing destnies of histories bygone, present and projections into the future. Open a page of his books and you are immediatly swept up by a introverted intuition valuer.

    To continue, Herbert wrote his novels in fits and starts, sometimes jumping in at certain points when the inspiration moved him. He wrote outside of chronology. It was for this reason his son had such a difficult time piecing the scraps of his work together in a way that created a convincing plot.

    Herbert was also deeply devoted and in love and in a monogamous relationship to his wife. He always said it was from her strong relationship to him that brought him connected to parts of himself that he would otherwise been out of touch with. I think this relates to socionics Fi. Also, in the provided interview, I see him as essentially positivist with strong logical mindframe . His idea of power and economics is very Gamma Te. He was fasinated with biology and a true naturalist. He would often travel within National parks seeking out new eco-systems to draw inspiration from.

    His writings prove that he was capable and fasinated with probing into the deeper complex situations and attempt to explain how and why they occured. He realized this gift through writing. His characters struggle with ideas and principles within harsh realities. I see him as a sort of gentler, more approachable Alan Watts (Te-LIE).
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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