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Thread: Ethical Debate

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    Default Ethical Debate

    I created this topic in the delta forum in order to avoid the anything goes clutter. The purpose of this topic is to bring up two important unrelated topica of ethics and how I think they play a significant role in everyday life and groups. I'd like to hear your input on these discussions with rebuttles, support or further elaboration.

    Gossip

    The whole purpose this activity is to create a sense of superiority within those that are partaking in it and observing it in a playful manner. By arbitrarily downgrading the state of one unadapted individual, it increases the aura of the entire group without the victim knowing anything about it. Whether it is fact or fiction is insignificant, since at most cases a fault of the individual is extrapolated to great extents in order to undermine that person to boost group morale in a pitiful manner. It all occurs psychologically, but basically by downgrading one or two individuals to a very low level, every gullible participant would suddenly feel superior. If anyone actually finds joy in this on a consistent basis, they should just give up on life due to their uselessness and terribly low self-esteem.

    Reputation

    Everything you say and do in a social gathering is remembered by most people and this will be used for or against you in the future. Usually those that tend to have the worst acceptance in a group are the types of people that are confrontational and challenge the status quo of a group, whether they are actually accurate or inaccurate in their judgement is meaningless in this situation. Most of the time the secluded member, has a point of view that doesn't coincide at all with public consensus. At the other side of the spectrum, someone who is accepted highly within the group is that somehow he or she has managed to understand the purpose of the group and discuss what is proper and avoid the unacceptable discussions. Unfortunately, some that retain this state tend to behave confrontationally to those who unluckily were unable to adapt and will continue to butcher them until they adapt, which most likely would not happen.

    Emotional Bullying

    The aggressor of this particular stunt usually tends to be confused about his or her own state. From the victim point of view and outsiders, it appears as if the aggressor is superior and taking advantage of the victim's weaknesses. In reality, the bully is simply attempting to make him or herself superior and the victim's state of superiority is insignificant, since the aggressor is undermining it to increase his or her own status. The person will attack the individual by making a highly arbitrary claim about a mild weakness and exaggerate it into a profound one in order to succeed in tearing the person down. Frequently, this can occur in group setting as well where a few people tear down the morale of an outlandish individual. Eventually everyone views that individual as an enemy and the victim may of created the situation through inane comments and attacks. However, the response by the group is often harsh and only makes the situation worse. By attempting to correct an abrupt victim's behaviour through forced humiliation, it often worsens the condition of the victim pushing him or her into worse behaviour that further warrants the previous label that was created arbitrarily.

    I tend to find this behaviour quite frequently with most people and I personally find it disgusting, but I've learned that this is normal human behaviour and I would be lying if I said that I didn't perform these behaviours at least a few times.
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    Default Re: Ethical Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler
    Gossip

    The whole purpose this activity is to create a sense of superiority within those that are partaking in it and observing it in a playful manner. By arbitrarily downgrading the state of one unadapted individual, it increases the aura of the entire group without the victim knowing anything about it. Whether it is fact or fiction is insignificant, since at most cases a fault of the individual is extrapolated to great extents in order to undermine that person to boost group morale in a pitiful manner. It all occurs psychologically, but basically by downgrading one or two individuals to a very low level, every gullible participant would suddenly feel superior. If anyone actually finds joy in this on a consistent basis, they should just give up on life due to their uselessness and terribly low self-esteem.
    I don't believe "gossip" is for the purpose of creating a sense of superiority.
    That can be one of the reasons, but not the only reason.
    It seems that when a third party is brought up in a conversation, that part of the conversation then gets labeled as "gossip".
    But there are numerous reasons why a third party may be brought up.

    If I'm trying to solve a problem I'm having with the third party, I prefer to have someone else's insights, understandings, observations, etc of the person, of the problem, of the situation, etc to draw on. I can't get those if we avoid talking about the person, the problem, the situation, etc.

    If I'm trying to help a person solve a problem of their own, sometimes it's helpful to mention the actions/efforts a third party took to solve that same or similar problem. I don't have to mention the third party's name, and I can remove some telltale descriptions, but sometimes the person I'm talking to would be more willing to accept that information as viable if they know who I'm describing. In this case, I'll usually ask the third party if it's ok if I discuss whatever issue with this other person. (This can sometimes get tricky in not letting either party know who is getting the information/question in order to ensure each party's sense of privacy.) (Note: if the person I'm talking to will never ever meet the third party, then I have no qualms mentioning a first name for ease of conversation, nor mentioning pertinent details. An example of this is when I discuss some socionics related type things with my daughter. She doesn't know anyone here, she'll never meet ya'll, and noone here will meet her. But some of ya'll make for good examples of issues she'll likely come across as she becomes a teen and older. Discussing these examples with her helps to show her various response options...good and bad.)

    And yes, other times I'm expressing my frustrations or joys regarding a third party. Expressing my frustrations does not necessarily mean I'm doing it to feel superior to them. It usually just means that I'm trying to get out some negative energy/thoughts regarding the person so that I can then think more clearly about whatever issue is going on between me and them. Obviously expressing my joys/likes regarding a third party is NOT for the purpose of feeling superior to them.

    Of course then there is the listening to someone else express their frustrations or joys regarding a third party, and then sharing some of my insights of the person or situation to aid the person I'm communicating with in solving whatever problem they are having regarding said person.


    Anyways, these are just a few examples of how "gossip" is not necessarily for the purpose of creating a sense of superiority.
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    Default Re: Ethical Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    An example of this is when I discuss some socionics related type things with my daughter. She doesn't know anyone here, she'll never meet ya'll, and noone here will meet her. But some of ya'll make for good examples of issues she'll likely come across as she becomes a teen and older. Discussing these examples with her helps to show her various response options...good and bad.)
    I can send you a picture of my nasty rotted meth teeth if you think it'll help

    *ducks back out of the living room to let the adults get back to their serrious debate/discussion*

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    Default Re: Ethical Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    An example of this is when I discuss some socionics related type things with my daughter. She doesn't know anyone here, she'll never meet ya'll, and noone here will meet her. But some of ya'll make for good examples of issues she'll likely come across as she becomes a teen and older. Discussing these examples with her helps to show her various response options...good and bad.)
    I can send you a picture of my nasty rotted meth teeth if you think it'll help


    *ducks back out of the living room to let the adults get back to their serrious debate/discussion*
    actually, you would probably make for a good example ...
    mostly as a scare tactic.
    "Manta, do you really want to live with me when you're an adult?"
    (only cuz the thought of her living with me when she's an adult is a nightmarish concept for both of us!
    And she says that when I get too old to live on my own...she'll send me to an old folks home instead of taking care of me herself...the ingrate. )
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    I think an aspect that can/should be considered is the unconscious social processes of maturity that some of these things are an intricate part in the development of. For instance... it's through things like bullying and gossip that a person eventually learns that true self-esteem is something that comes from the inside. I think this is learned throughout childhood by the process of being picked on and playing these other social games until a certain critical point is reached when a person has had enough and makes the decision that who and what they are and their worth is best maintained from within as apposed to what others say (I imagine there's the other side to it too, watching the person get picked on and coming to the same realizations)... did that make sense??? if anybody understands what I'm saying here feel free to put it in clearer terms otherwise I'll make another stab at it in a few.

    sort of like bullies are in a sense subconsciously working as teachers in the employ of the collective unconscious to teach the life lessons that are needed to become an adult. Lessons that can only be learned through doing and experience and not through written or spoken language.

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    Default Re: Ethical Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I don't believe "gossip" is for the purpose of creating a sense of superiority.
    That can be one of the reasons, but not the only reason.
    It seems that when a third party is brought up in a conversation, that part of the conversation then gets labeled as "gossip".
    But there are numerous reasons why a third party may be brought up.
    Just to clarify this (because I suddenly saw ways it could be misinterpreted..hehe).
    I used to not think that the examples I gave of mentioning/discussing a third party would be considered "gossip".
    But since coming to this forum, I've been introduced to the idea that when a third party is brought up in a conversation that the conversation has suddenly entered the gossiping realm.
    Interestingly enough...this new concept of gossip was introduced to me by a few T types.
    (Though one T person has proven to be valuable in helping me with the examples I gave.)
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    Gossip.
    Hate it. Especially when they develop into vicious rumor spreading. That usually happens.

    I have observed this in certain people. They go out with a group of friends. And LOVE talking about what this person did, what that person told them. And other people's private life. And when they have not enough gossip to share, they share secrets of others. Without considering how that person would feel.

    Gossiping as social bonding? Fe-concept? Probably.

    I know a group of ESFj, ESFj, ISFp and ENFj girls. Every time they meet for any activity, lunch, dinner, shopping, or just meeting to chill at a coffee shop. Exchanging information about other people's lives, secrets, behaviors, is very common. I only went out with them a few times, and was totally not myself. I sat there like an idiot, keeping quiet throughout the whole meeting. O. They do enjoy this past time of theirs.
    I'll always here them go "O! And did you hear about xxx? I heard she got pregnant, and she's not even married! I think she's going for an abortion. What a slut."
    Or "I can't stand how A is around B. She's thinks she's gorgeous and so smart. But I think she's so fake. I don't see what B sees in her."

    It's pretty funny. Well, at least I got to hear the latest gossip.
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    Reputation

    Everything you say and do in a social gathering is remembered by most people and this will be used for or against you in the future. Usually those that tend to have the worst acceptance in a group are the types of people that are confrontational and challenge the status quo of a group, whether they are actually accurate or inaccurate in their judgement is meaningless in this situation. Most of the time the secluded member, has a point of view that doesn't coincide at all with public consensus. At the other side of the spectrum, someone who is accepted highly within the group is that somehow he or she has managed to understand the purpose of the group and discuss what is proper and avoid the unacceptable discussions. Unfortunately, some that retain this state tend to behave confrontationally to those who unluckily were unable to adapt and will continue to butcher them until they adapt, which most likely would not happen.
    Hmm. I'm not quite sure if I understood you.
    Are you talking about something like peer-pressure?
    Where a group of people or a person, directly or indirectly "forces" you to conform to their "social rules"?
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    Default Re: Ethical Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    If I'm trying to help a person solve a problem of their own, sometimes it's helpful to mention the actions/efforts a third party took to solve that same or similar problem. I don't have to mention the third party's name, and I can remove some telltale descriptions, but sometimes the person I'm talking to would be more willing to accept that information as viable if they know who I'm describing. In this case, I'll usually ask the third party if it's ok if I discuss whatever issue with this other person. (This can sometimes get tricky in not letting either party know who is getting the information/question in order to ensure each party's sense of privacy.) (Note: if the person I'm talking to will never ever meet the third party, then I have no qualms mentioning a first name for ease of conversation, nor mentioning pertinent details. An example of this is when I discuss some socionics related type things with my daughter. She doesn't know anyone here, she'll never meet ya'll, and noone here will meet her. But some of ya'll make for good examples of issues she'll likely come across as she becomes a teen and older. Discussing these examples with her helps to show her various response options...good and bad.)
    Yes, your correct because there are several reasons how gossip can be positive rather than negative like the ones you suggested. I was describing gossip with a pessimistic attitude, so that could be the reason. There is also a lot of reasons why people gossip like ones you mentioned and may not be to feel superior, but perhaps to learn more about the individual. I've heard about people gossiping about someone in a positive manner that actually increases the credibility of that individual, and I don't personally anything wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Also, I don't think mentioning to someone else a problem you're having with another person is gossip. It's getting outside input for problem-solving or sometimes just for venting when you're not able to find a way to solve the problem with the person in question. Or like anndelise mentioned, to use as an example of something, clarifying what issue you're talking about. Now, if you just like to spread rumors or talk about other people with no purpose other than to talk about them, that's gossip. And I avoid gossips as much as possible. I don't want to hear about so-and-so and how they did such-and-such. Bleck.
    I like how you suggested that discussing how to solve a conflict with an individual can benefit from group interaction and I think that makes sense and won't classify as gossip. So basically from this, it depends on the context that the person is being described whether it is positive or negative. Most importantly, whether the discussion is used to understand the person and improve the relationship or humiliate him or her via insults that doesn't solve any viable purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I think an aspect that can/should be considered is the unconscious social processes of maturity that some of these things are an intricate part in the development of. For instance... it's through things like bullying and gossip that a person eventually learns that true self-esteem is something that comes from the inside. I think this is learned throughout childhood by the process of being picked on and playing these other social games until a certain critical point is reached when a person has had enough and makes the decision that who and what they are and their worth is best maintained from within as apposed to what others say (I imagine there's the other side to it too, watching the person get picked on and coming to the same realizations)... did that make sense??? if anybody understands what I'm saying here feel free to put it in clearer terms otherwise I'll make another stab at it in a few.
    That's very interesting that you bring that up in what appears like Darwinian fashion to me. It's almost as if emotional bullying is a way of adapting to the harsh realities of life and learning to cope with it properly and the strongest survive, while the weakest fail. However, we also have to consider that some people naturally don't get bullied on because of physical or mental characteristics that are natural to them or simply by chance because of the environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Hmm. I'm not quite sure if I understood you.
    Are you talking about something like peer-pressure?
    Where a group of people or a person, directly or indirectly "forces" you to conform to their "social rules"?
    That's one aspect of reputation where people do have to adapt to the aribtrary social mores to be accepted. I think that's one reason why some are accepted and others are discredited as freaks. However, I think a good example is that if 10 people think A is to be correct and an 11th person attempt to join in the grop and thinks B is correct, then that person will be refused from entering the group because he or she has not conformed. Whether A is valid or not does not matter, since it's the arbitrary belief that counts. A or B could be anything, a specific religion or a view politics, but it is through arbitrary social norms that groups are established. Of course that is just one reason, since social groups aren't as simple as that because communication style and mindset and other reasons are factors as well.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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