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Thread: Differences between EIE-ENFj and IEE-ENFp

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    Default Differences between EIE-ENFj and IEE-ENFp

    I just met a girl and I'm having trouble identifiying her type. How do you distinguish between an ENFJ and an ENFP? What characterises them both? I'm an ISTJ so obviously there's a huge difference between the types, but conflicting relations aren't so evident upon first contact.
    ISTj.

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    The ENFj pretends to be emotional the ENFp is emotional
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Realize if the person needs a static ISTj aggressor
    or a dynamic ISTp caregiver
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I had this dilemma a while back when I mistook my ENFj friend for an ENFp. I've had extensive experience with both types, so hopefully my input will help. I won't be describing the functions of the two types as much as the appearance of the two types, because you told me your main goal was to figure out your friend's type.
    ENFjs are incredibly effusive, expressive, and emotional people. They project their emotions outward and are very interested in others. They will likely ask all kinds of questions about who you are, what you're interested in, and what your life is like. Initially they might seem invasive or prying, but in most cases their interest is sincere. Some are more intense than others, but being people-focused is their main distinguishing factor.
    ENFps' emotions are directed largely inward. They are incredibly kind, outgoing, and dynamic people (which is why you might confuse them with ENFjs), but they express their emotions very differently than ENFjs. In essence, they don't have the intense that ENFjs do. They can be nice to people, but in many cases they're actually quite shy and reserve their most intense emotions for their close friends. ENFjs spread their like wildfire - their personal energy and dynamism is off the wall, while ENFps tend to be a bit more subdued. ENFps tend to be more reflective with their emotions.
    While ENFjs' personal energy is largely directed toward interpersonal relationships, ENFp's personal energy is largely directed toward ideas and creative pursuits. ENFps are often interested everything and anything esoteric, bizarre, unique, and out-of-this-world. They have that special brand of humor (here's an example: www.myspace.com/ryanrodney - read his blog), which is quirkiness personified. Basically, involves seeing all of the possibilities, re-examining them, and putting your own personal (and oftentimes crazy) spin on them. Creativity comes first for ENFps.
    Another key area of difference is working habits. ENFjs are usually workaholics - their hidden agenda is to be successful. Many of them find their niches in upper-management because they have a strong drive to succeed coupled with a strong need for control. Other professions include the caring professions (nursing, counseling), business, politics, and communications. They're also usually neat freaks and are very planful with their time.
    ENFps usually prefer working for themselves in some kind of creative capacity. Many are writers, teachers, designers, artists, etc. They're also very involved in politics and the caring professions. Their hidden agenda is to know, so they're very often interested in a range of academic subjects, particularly philosophy and the sciences. They can be very successful, but they usually don't work for the sake of working - they value their free time and are usually most productive when they're passionate about what they're doing. As for their management of their personal lives, they tend to be on the messy side and are more spontaneous than ENFjs.
    I know this description is somewhat incomplete, but I have to go, so I'll leave you with this:
    ENFjs - INTENSE personal dynamism and interest in others. They tend to appear more conventional and accepting of social norms
    ENFps - INTENSE personal creativity and interest in ideas. They tend to be more offbeat and rebellious toward social norms
    Since both are extroverted feelers, each loves people and is talkative, but when you tip the scales, ENFjs are more people-focused while ENFps are more idea-focused.
    Here are some real-life examples of each type (and I'm sure people will disagree with me, but I'm pretty confident in my typing):
    ENFp - Ryan Reynolds, whose blog I linked you to
    ENFj - Oprah (I couldn't think of anyone else at the moment)
    If you have any more questions, feel free to ask :wink:

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    If you want the simplest way to distinguish between the two, ask yourself this: is she more quirky/offbeat (ENFp) or more refined/conventional (ENFj)? Once again, it's not that each type is always one or the other, but each is usually more of one than the other.

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    The kind of conversation.

    ENFj are single minded. They take a topic an speak a lot about it without switching to another. This keeps their dual, ISTj, at peace.
    ENFp are very changing. They take a topic and at without the lightest warning they switch over another again and again. This confuses Ne PoLR types (ISFj and ISTj) a lot, because they can't keep on with the jumps and become irritated.
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    ENFjs are more spiritually "woo!" the one i know best is very into astrology/evil eye/omen stuff, as per gulenko's description. she's a lot more "intense" in an EJ sort of way and will go on and on about how "unoriginal" something is. she likes uniqueness in everything. she is an incredibly (as in, scary) hard worker and extremely self-disciplined like a lot of beta quadra members are. she takes a ton of care of her appearance and will like, work out in a sort of maddening way where you're wondering if she's even human (like whoa where do you get the energy to work out, work 80 bajillion hours a week, plus have 3 kids?? wth?) on the other hand their self-sacrifice or whatever, can be really impressive? that is supposedly one of the reasons they get on well with ISTjs (like they "break through" to the ISTj with their excessively hard-working nature.)

    i don't think ENFps are "lazy" as much as much as, like uninspired said, they aren't just working for the sake of working and they value their free time more (the hidden agenda is absent.)

    i find ENFjs to generally be more sarcastic and sometimes they can have a morbid sense of humor which is great.

    the ENFj i know best always goes on about how you shouldn't touch other people's things and such. this keeps the ISTj, her dual, at peace. (;
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    Thanks everyone.

    Come to think of it, I think she might be INFp. I'll give you a little description about her. She hates it when strange guys touch her at parties and lashes out at them. She writes notes to herself and posts them around her room so she doesn't forget the little things. She enjoys going out but not working. She enjoys going to local places to hang out where she'll bump into friends rather than going to the city. She studies media and is quite creative and know's how to create a warm atmosphere. - I know this isn't much to go by but I'll post more when I find out more.
    ISTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    The ENFj pretends to be emotional the ENFp is emotional
    It's funny that you say that; recently an Fe-dominant (one who at least seems very emotional) said to me how an ENFp was more emotional than she was. I always assumed that Fe-dominants were actually more emotional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    The ENFj pretends to be emotional the ENFp is emotional
    It's funny that you say that; recently an Fe-dominant (one who at least seems very emotional) said to me how an ENFp was more emotional than she was. I always assumed that Fe-dominants were actually more emotional.
    it also helps to explain why Fi's tend to think of Fe's emotional shows as being faked
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    The ENFj pretends to be emotional the ENFp is emotional
    It's funny that you say that; recently an Fe-dominant (one who at least seems very emotional) said to me how an ENFp was more emotional than she was. I always assumed that Fe-dominants were actually more emotional.
    it also helps to explain why Fi's tend to think of Fe's emotional shows as being faked
    Yeah. I mean, they both have cried in public before, but for different reasons. The Fe-dominant would cry because she got a C on a test whereas the ENFp would because her aunt and uncle were getting divorced. That said, I think I prefer superficial emotions.
    The higher, the fewer

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    That said, I think I prefer superficial emotions.
    i was thinking soon after writing my previous post here that it'd be easier for a TiXe to be around FeXi because of the magnified expressions of emotions and how the FeXi allows little to no vagueness as to what the emotional focus is, and how the emotion is related to it.

    when in a group setting, this accepting Fe allows the FeXi to mirror what's going on in the group, and magnifies it clearly enough for the TiXe to catch on
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    That said, I think I prefer superficial emotions.
    i was thinking soon after writing my previous post here that it'd be easier for a TiXe to be around FeXi because of the magnified expressions of emotions and how the FeXi allows little to no vagueness as to what the emotional focus is, and how the emotion is related to it.

    when in a group setting, this accepting Fe allows the FeXi to mirror what's going on in the group, and magnifies it clearly enough for the TiXe to catch on
    How well put, I think every type does this with their dominant function:


    FeXi magnify the group dynamics clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("You're a LIAR!!!").

    TeXi magnify the project dynamics clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("Absolutely USELESS!!!").

    NeXi magnify the underlying state clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("This is TYRANNY!!!").

    SeXi magnify the overlaying state clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("BOOOORING!!!").

    TiXe magnify the rational justification clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("It makes NO SENSE!!!").

    FiXe magnify the ethical justification clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("People WILL DIE!!!!").

    SiXe magnify the relations in ones environmental clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("This doesn't belong HERE!!!").

    NiXe magnify the environment development clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("FUTILE!!!").


    at least I think it would be like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    That said, I think I prefer superficial emotions.
    i was thinking soon after writing my previous post here that it'd be easier for a TiXe to be around FeXi because of the magnified expressions of emotions and how the FeXi allows little to no vagueness as to what the emotional focus is, and how the emotion is related to it.

    when in a group setting, this accepting Fe allows the FeXi to mirror what's going on in the group, and magnifies it clearly enough for the TiXe to catch on
    How well put, I think every type does this with their dominant function:


    FeXi magnify the group dynamics clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("You're a LIAR!!!").

    TeXi magnify the project dynamics clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("Absolutely USELESS!!!").

    NeXi magnify the underlying state clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("This is TYRANNY!!!").

    SeXi magnify the overlaying state clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("BOOOORING!!!").

    TiXe magnify the rational justification clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("It makes NO SENSE!!!").

    FiXe magnify the ethical justification clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("People WILL DIE!!!!").

    SiXe magnify the relations in ones environmental clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("This doesn't belong HERE!!!").

    NiXe magnify the environment development clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("FUTILE!!!").


    at least I think it would be like this.
    lol, that's good. I would switch Ne & Se, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    How well put, I think every type does this with their dominant function:


    FeXi magnify the group dynamics clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("You're a LIAR!!!").

    TeXi magnify the project dynamics clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("Absolutely USELESS!!!").

    NeXi magnify the underlying state clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("This is TYRANNY!!!").

    SeXi magnify the overlaying state clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("BOOOORING!!!").

    TiXe magnify the rational justification clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("It makes NO SENSE!!!").

    FiXe magnify the ethical justification clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("People WILL DIE!!!!").

    SiXe magnify the relations in ones environmental clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("This doesn't belong HERE!!!").

    NiXe magnify the environment development clearly enough for anybody to catch on ("FUTILE!!!").


    at least I think it would be like this.
    lol, that's good. I would switch Ne & Se, though.
    Ne keeping the underlying state (because N is implicit)
    Se keeping the overlaying state (because S is explicit)
    just switch the tyranny/boring examples?
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    just switch the tyranny/boring examples?
    Yes, I was referring to the examples.
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    I was actually wondering about Si and Te and whether they are good because I assumed what they should be purely theoretically.

    How about a "What a mess" or "It sticks out like a sore thumb"or the emotional version "Because it SUCKS!!!" for Se? I just can't see something as theoretical as an elaboration on state of affairs being a trademark of Se dominance, I can see them either brushing the matter aside or taking care of it but actually indulging in the matter seems very Ne to me.

    I was actually split at where exactly to place the boring example, it seems to fit both Se and Ne dominance IME.

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    Default enfj vs enfp?

    what are the fundamental differences? not in the sense of enfjs value Fe over Fi, that stuff is obvious, Im talking real world examples, how do they come off differently, in the same situations what would they do? etc. Im trying to find out if Im one or the other and the whole preferring Se or Si line of thought really isn't helping.
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    what are the fundamental differences? not in the sense of enfjs value Fe over Fi, that stuff is obvious, Im talking real world examples, how do they come off differently, in the same situations what would they do? etc. Im trying to find out if Im one or the other and the whole preferring Se or Si line of thought really isn't helping.
    hmmm, well my aunt is enfj and my mother is enfp. My aunt is far more argumentative and opinionated. My mother is more flighty and totally Ne, tosses out ideas left and right. My aunt is more outwardly expressive of what she's feeling, whether negative or positive and doesn't try to hide it. My mom is more reserved and never knows what she thinks about stuff. Let me try to think of more specific examples.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    ENFj



    ENFp



    ENFp-Ne (possibly ENTp)

    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    That is a strange question. ENFjs and ENFps have almost nothing in common!

    Quote Originally Posted by socionionics.com
    ENFjs always warn others about impending trouble. They often dramatise reality a little too much as they seem to see the world in shades of grey. When interacting, they are sometimes parasitic and intrusive with their opinions and comments. They also have the ability to persuade others that their opinions are right. They have also tendency to create problems where there are not any and moreover to convince others of it.

    ENFps are quite comfortable to talk to and are talented interlocutors. They often help people to extricate themselves from difficult situations. ENFps are often optimistic and it is not uncommon for them to transfer this optimism to others. Wherever ENFps go they have a characteristic ability to create a circle of friends and acquaintances and be at the centre of attention. They respect and preserve the opinions of the circle, taking an active part in defending and promoting them.
    In other words: ENFjs create problems and make trouble - ENFps solve problems and pacify others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    That is a strange question. ENFjs and ENFps have almost nothing in common!

    In other words: ENFjs create problems and make trouble - ENFps solve problems and pacify others.
    I like how you spelled your source. Do they sell onions there?
    Last edited by Park; 01-11-2010 at 09:33 PM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkster View Post
    I like how you spelled your source. Do they sell onions there?
    LOL
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    Default Difference betwee EIE and IEE in real life

    Like how can you distinguish both? Because I'm usually confused 😕

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    These two types are not that difficult to tell apart.

    Just start a conversation about sex and/or politics. The EIE will crack dirty sex jokes, generalize about groups of people with gushy imagery (e.g. "I'd love to dine on the native wildlife here" [referring to women], "it's so hot today that even a spinster could get her loins wet") and the IEE will get triggered, melt down and accuse the EIE of being a sexist misogynist fascist bigot. The EIE will be stunned by this reaction, as they were just trying to energize people and make them laugh. The IEE however is on the warpath against "injustice" and will try to shame the EIE by dissecting all their flaws in front of others.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuivienen View Post
    These two types are not that difficult to tell apart.

    Just start a conversation about sex and/or politics. The EIE will crack dirty sex jokes, generalize about groups of people with gushy imagery (e.g. "I'd love to dine on the native wildlife here" [referring to women], "it's so hot today that even a spinster could get her loins wet") and the IEE will get triggered, melt down and accuse the EIE of being a sexist misogynist fascist bigot. The EIE will be stunned by this reaction, as they were just trying to energize people and make them laugh. The IEE however is on the warpath against "injustice" and will try to shame the EIE by dissecting all their flaws in front of others.
    So basically the difference is eie are more open to sexual jokes. And iee is not?

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    Hmmmm.. Okay.. I think I'm getting it... yeah i think my two real life friend is eie confirmed i guess. Because they're very open about talking sex, homosexuality, masturbation and stuff..

    But, the iee i know yes.. He's confirmed i guess? Like he's battling about good and evil like he's talking like he doesn't drink.. He joins a party but he doesn't drink at all.. And then, he's usually cracks up joke in an attention seeking way.. And then, sometimes you'll see him happy, but sometimes you'll see him sad.. Sometimes he's complaining about his friends.. Sometimes he's talking about connecting with other people.. Is this iee???? the first time i met him, like two iee, the first time i met them, they're not that very welcoming.. But later they'll get friendlier at you. And starts to joke. They both love to joke around.. And i think they have a crush on me both. (lolololololol jk)

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    So iee are not friendlier with new people? Is that right??

    And eie are very welcoming of new people??

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    IEE is p (irrational), EIE j (rational).

    Rationality / Irrationality (also: Judging / Perceiving or Shizotyme / Cyclotyme ) is one of the 4 Jungian dichotomies, and one of the 15 Reinin dichotomies. Rationality in socionics is a perceptual quality defined by a focus on actions and emotions. In contrast, Irrationality means a focus on states of mind and body.
    Typical Characteristics

    Rationals


    1. Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early
    2. Are more often rigid and stubborn
    3. Do not like to change their decisions
    4. Tend to finish what they started.
    5. Usually have stiff movements.
    6. Usually more 'authoritarian' leadership style.



    Irrationals


    1. Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous
    2. Are more often flexible and tolerant.
    3. Change their decisions frequently.
    4. Tend to start new things without finishing them.
    5. Usually have gentle movements.
    6. Usually more 'democratic' leadership style.


    EIEs deal with -Fe, which means being focused in negative emotions often. Then IEEs are more positively focused, therefore look happier often. They look "childlike", they have an infantile aura, they are whimsical and are always rambling. They get excited about possibilities of adventures and business. EIEs on the contrary are more realistically oriented, and are often interested in what, when and why.

    EIEs tend to have a heavier or darker aura than IEEs. Sometimes they dont avoid expressing it to ppl. IME its very very rare that an IEE express negative emotions to ppl, especially strangers. They are not very confident in expressing negativity in public. They just do it with close ppl. They always try to keep things polite. They fear expressing anger or concerns. Finally, IEEs are childlike, they want and need attention and to be taken care of, while EIEs are victims, they are often devoted and selfless at home.

    To me its more easy to notice EIEs than IEEs. They are louder, they wear distinctively and have certain "attitude" thats hard to ignore (along with that, they can laugh too loud, express emotions openly, move their hands etc). IEEs can be much more modest in public. Usually look well behaved or simply softer. They strive to be nicer and pleasant.

    Oh, and IEEs are very curious, like interested in details and unusual things. You can hardly have a conversation about topics like that with an EIE.
    Last edited by Crystal; 02-02-2018 at 04:36 AM.

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    I met healthy eie in real life. :/ so basically they're curious too and very open.

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    I think EIEs are very good speakers (in large groups) while IEEs tend to prefer communicating with each person alone.
    When you get to know them, EIEs can be provocative, intolerent of people and they're very honest, they sometimes say things that hurt people even if they know it, for people to improve themselves, maybe? They want to change people and they feel like they're a missionary.
    IEEs are often very careful around people and don't say things honeslty because they don't want to offend. They might seem cold and serious at first (like EIEs) but if they feel comfortable, they will become very warm and bubbly and yeah they will start cracking jokes.
    I feel that IEEs are more concerned with being liked and they care so much about people's opinions about them.
    EIEs can often impose their opinions on people and they can be very stubborn, when IEEs often run away from conflict and they do their best to avoid such situations.
    EIEs are organized and like stuff to be in the right place. For IEEs it's hard for them to be organized.
    When IEEs try to help someone, they do so with giving you quick insights/advice and leave you to do the rest. When EIEs try to help, they try to change your thoughts, they're very good in changing people's mentalities.
    Last edited by Daisy; 02-02-2018 at 12:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    I think EIEs are very good speakers (in large groups) while IEEs tend to prefer communicating with each person alone.
    When you get to know them, EIEs can be provocative, intolerent of people and they're very honest, they sometimes say things that hurt people even if they know it, for people to improve themselves, maybe? They want to change people and they feel like they're a missionary.
    IEEs are often very careful around people and don't say things honeslty because they don't want to offend. They might seem cold and serious at first (like EIEs) but if they feel comfortable, they will become very warm and bubbly and yeah they will start cracking jokes.
    I feel that IEEs are more concerned with being liked and they care so much about people's opinions about them.
    EIEs can often impose their opinions on people and they can be very stubborn, when IEEs often run away from conflict and they do their best to avoid such situations.
    EIEs are organized and like stuff to be in the right place. For IEEs it's hard for them to be organized.
    When IEEs try to help someone, they do so with giving you quick insights/advice and leave you to do the rest. When EIEs try to help, they try to change your thoughts, they're very good in changing people's mentalities.
    Exactly!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by idontgiveaf View Post
    I met healthy eie in real life. :/ so basically they're curious too and very open.
    Nothing of what I mentioned means unhealthiness chickie. I was pointing out how they look/ appear so you can differentiate them. The -Fe appears in theory. - IEs are more aware and focused in the negative sides of functions than +. Meaning they notice it and experience it more than +. I'm - Si, I'm often more aware of what I don't like and makes me uncomfortable than about the nice sides of Si. I think that I often experience more feelings of discomfort (not just physical also psychological) than +Si types, for example.
    Last edited by Crystal; 02-09-2018 at 04:51 PM.

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    Good posts so far on the difference between the two. EIEs tend be significantly more comfortable in large groups than IEEs. EIEs are more darker openly and like to talk about negative issues openly. As for myself, I prefer to stay out of the limelight as much as possible in large groups, but I open up in small groups or with individuals depending on how comfortable I feel with those people.

    It is kind of out of my control too. I may have strong Fe, but it is completely unconscious so it turns on or off based on how I feel at the moment rather than what I want or need. I guess that is typical for a demonstrative function. EIEs on the other hand, are completely in control of their Fe and use it effectively rather than sporadically like me. I am so last mind you, so other IEEs may behave differently than I do in these situations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy View Post
    I think EIEs are very good speakers (in large groups) while IEEs tend to prefer communicating with each person alone.
    When you get to know them, EIEs can be provocative, intolerent of people and they're very honest, they sometimes say things that hurt people even if they know it, for people to improve themselves, maybe? They want to change people and they feel like they're a missionary.
    IEEs are often very careful around people and don't say things honeslty because they don't want to offend. They might seem cold and serious at first (like EIEs) but if they feel comfortable, they will become very warm and bubbly and yeah they will start cracking jokes.
    I feel that IEEs are more concerned with being liked and they care so much about people's opinions about them.
    EIEs can often impose their opinions on people and they can be very stubborn, when IEEs often run away from conflict and they do their best to avoid such situations.
    EIEs are organized and like stuff to be in the right place. For IEEs it's hard for them to be organized.
    When IEEs try to help someone, they do so with giving you quick insights/advice and leave you to do the rest. When EIEs try to help, they try to change your thoughts, they're very good in changing people's mentalities.
    Good post, I agree with almost all of it. IEEs are very much more individual-oriented, EIEs are more public- or community-oriented. Less comfortable with conflict vs. more comfortable (or even tend to create it).

    However, I wouldn't quite say that IEEs are "more concerned with being liked" -- in the sense of avoiding conflict and controversy and getting along with people yes, but they are less concerned about making a positive impression beyond the baseline of merely getting along.

    Organizational ability seems to vary wildly among EIEs but they can be workaholics like any other Se valuing extrovert. Betas tend to oscillate more dramatically between chaos and order -- again a lot of this has to do with extremes vs. middle ground stuff.

    Humor is another thing that varies a lot.
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    One likes Si, the other likes Se. Its pretty simple to see once you understand what Si is and what Se is.

    Likes as in---> needs it for stability. Not like as in a preference.

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    I relate to both, moreso to IEE, but neither hits home completely As for some input here - recently I watched this video:



    And made a big ass transcript. It's not entirely finished in terms of formatting, but I can do that. If you're interested and want me to publish it here please let me know.
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    oh my god yes, please post transcript

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    Reading this, I get the impression no one really knows the difference between the two types here...

    P.S: I have to correct myself, @Crystal actually illustrated the differences rather well around the end, I only skimmed her post at first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olimpia View Post
    Reading this, I get the impression no one really knows the difference between the two types...
    Help us, Momlimpia.

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