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Thread: hypothesis on TIM frequency

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    Default hypothesis on TIM frequency

    Yes, I believe that socionic types are approximately equally distributed, and that proves that myersian types are not the same as the socionic types. How ? Having unequally distributed types means traits are not orthogonal to each other.

    I've done a study which compared Socionics to 9 other typologies, including Myers-Briggs, saying for example "INFJ is the rarest myertype because IN and FJ are contradictory". IN means having I and N traits, and FJ means having Fe myersian function.

    But I don't think there are exactly 6.25% of each type, 50% of each dichotomic trait. For example, I expect extroverts to be only 48 to 49% of world population, instead of 50%. Why ? because they take more risks, and are supposed to have lower life expectancy.

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    Default Re: hypothesis on TIM frequency

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    But I don't think there are exactly 6.25% of each type, 50% of each dichotomic trait. For example, I expect extroverts to be only 48 to 49% of world population, instead of 50%. Why ? because they take more risks, and are supposed to have lower life expectancy.
    This might be true if there's an equal chance of a baby being born an introvert or an extrovert, but there are different kinds of introvert + extrovert, probably expressed by many genes. Your biological sex is determined in effect by whether your father passes on a X chromosome or a Y chromosome, which should obviously mean a 50:50 male:female distrubution at birth.

    If genes cause personality, then it must mean that extroverts are more likely to have children who are extroverts rather than introverts, and extroverts obviously have more children than introverts, if they take more risks . I think it's more complex than that - people aren't black-and-white extroverts or introverts.
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    Default Re: hypothesis on TIM frequency

    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    This might be true if there's an equal chance of a baby being born an introvert or an extrovert, but there are different kinds of introvert + extrovert, probably expressed by many genes.
    IMO, nobody is born with IM traits, but neurochemical configurations (e.g. dopamin, norepinephrin, serotonin) makes the psyche to individuate in a different way. This explains why enneagram types are correlated to socionic types.

    For example a baby with low dopamin level (or enneatypes 459) is likely to individuate as introtim. But I think if it would be treated with a constant stream of dopamin or coffee, he could possibly individuate as extrotim !

    My neurochemical configuration is like this : Dopamin LOW, Norepinephrin HIGH, and Serotonin NEUTRAL.

    Those are for each enneagram type :

    Code:
        DOPAMIN  NOREPI.  SEROTONIN
    E1  neutral  low      neutral
    E2  neutral  neutral  high
    E3  high     neutral  neutral
    E4  low      neutral  low
    E5  low      high     neutral
    E6* neutral  high     low
    E7  high     high     high
    E8  high     low      low
    E9  low      low      high
    
    *Ecp6 would have DOPAMIN high instead of neutral
    That means, there could possibly be 27 possible neurochemical configurations, if we had 3 variables with 3 possible values. We could create a non-socionic subtype system, which would somehow resembles Gulenko's DCNH.

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    It's not surprising that there may be some degree of similarity between typing systems, just so long as they don't involve astrology etc. - they just split up the whole of humaness differently. Personality could be caused by genetic or environmental factors, but it doesn't change the observed characteristics of humans if one has a bigger effect than the other.

    Neurochemicals can be changed artifically, certainly - but the amounts you produce to begin with are determined genetically. I do think it's possible to find a link between levels of serotonin etc. and certain behavious though.
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    I'd really leave genetics - as in, heredity of traits - out of the picture in discussing type percentages, at least given the development of genetics right now.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    Neurochemicals can be changed artifically, certainly - but the amounts you produce to begin with are determined genetically. I do think it's possible to find a link between levels of serotonin etc. and certain behavious though.
    Those includes Dopamin, Norepinephrin and Serotonin ; but which others ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    Neurochemicals can be changed artifically, certainly - but the amounts you produce to begin with are determined genetically. I do think it's possible to find a link between levels of serotonin etc. and certain behavious though.
    Those includes Dopamin, Norepinephrin and Serotonin ; but which others ?

    It's a long time since I study this area, but wikipedia is your friend - basically things to do with amino acids, protein chains, hormone regulation etc.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine

    Some examples of neurotransmitter action:

    Acetylcholine - voluntary movement of the muscles
    Norepinephrine - wakefulness or arousal
    Dopamine - voluntary movement and emotional arousal
    Serotonin - memory, emotions, wakefulness, sleep and temperature regulation
    GABA (gamma aminobutyric acid) - inhibition of motor neurons
    Glycine - spinal reflexes and motor behaviour
    Neuromodulators - sensory transmission-especially pain

    It is important to appreciate that it is the receptor that dictates the neurotransmitter's effect.
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    Dopamin is related to 459-126-378 (low-med-high)
    Norepinephrin is related to 891-234-567
    Serotonin is related to 468-135-792

    I'm searching for which neurotransmitter related to 147-258-369

    4 neurotransmitters would reflect the basic 12 enneagram triads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    I'm searching for which neurotransmitter related to 147-258-369
    I'm not too good on enneagram things - but would that be something that makes people suicidal + hypertensive + aggressive?

    Hypertension, commonly referred to as "high blood pressure", is a medical condition in which the blood pressure is chronically elevated.[1] While it is formally called arterial hypertension, the word "hypertension" without a qualifier usually refers to arterial hypertension. Hypertension has been associated with a higher risk of heart attack or stroke. Persistent hypertension is one of the risk factors for strokes, heart attacks, heart failure and arterial aneurysm, and is a leading cause of chronic renal failure.
    Etiology of essential hypertension

    Environment
    A number of environmental factors have been implicated in the development of hypertension, including salt intake, obesity, occupation, alcohol intake, family size, stimulant intake, excessive noise exposure,[3] and crowding.


    Salt sensitivity
    Sodium is the environmental factor that has received the greatest attention. It is to be noted that approximately 60% of the essential hypertension population is responsive to sodium intake.


    Role of renin
    Renin is an enzyme secreted by the juxtaglomerular cells of the kidney and linked with aldosterone in a negative feedback loop. The range of plasma renin activity observed in hypertensive subjects tends to be broader than in normotensive individuals. In consequence, some hypertensive patients have been defined as having low-renin and others as having high-renin essential hypertension. Low-renin hypertension is more common in African Americans than Caucasians and may explain why they tend to respond better to diuretic therapy than drugs that interfere with the renin-angiotensin system.



    Insulin resistance
    Insulin is a polypeptide hormone secreted by the pancreas. Its main purpose is to regulate the levels of glucose in the body. Insulin also exhibits vasodilatory properties. In normotensive individuals, insulin may stimulate sympathetic activity without elevating mean arterial pressure. However, in more extreme conditions such as that of the metabolic syndrome, the increased sympathetic neural activity may over-ride the vasodilatory effects of insulin. Insulin resistance and/or hyperinsulinemia have been suggested as being responsible for the increased arterial pressure in some patients with hypertension. This feature is now widely recognized as part of syndrome X, or the metabolic syndrome.


    Sleep apnea
    Sleep apnea is a common, under recognized cause of hypertension.[1] It is best treated with weight loss, nocturnal nasal positive airway pressure, or the Mandibular advancement splint (MAS).


    Genetics
    Hypertension is one of the most common complex genetic disorders, with genetic heritability averaging 30%. Data supporting this view emerge from animal studies as well as in population studies in humans. Most of these studies support the concept that the inheritance is probably multifactorial or that a number of different genetic defects each have an elevated blood pressure as one of their phenotypic expressions.

    More than 50 genes have been examined in association studies with hypertension, and the number is constantly growing..


    Other etiologies
    There are some anecdotal or transient causes of high blood pressure. These are not to be confused with the disease called hypertension in which there is an intrinsic physiopathological mechanism as described above.

    So, from that renin paragraph above, maybe aldosterone is responsible for that kind of behaviour - note it's a steroid hormone rather than a neurotrasnmitter.
    Aldosterone is a steroid hormone (mineralocorticoid family) produced by the outer-section (zona glomerulosa) of the adrenal cortex in the adrenal gland to regulate sodium and potassium balance in the blood.

    Location of receptors
    Unlike neuroreceptors, classic steroid receptors are intracellularly located. The aldosterone/MR receptor complex binds on the DNA to specific hormone response element, which leads to gene specific transcription.

    Some of the transcribed genes are crucial for transepithelial sodium transport, including the three subunits of the epithelial sodium channel, the Na+/K+ pumps and their regulatory proteins serum and glucocorticoid-induced kinase, and channel-inducing factor respectively.
    (Have I gone completely off the track? )
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    I'm searching for which neurotransmitter related to 147-258-369
    I'm not too good on enneagram things - but would that be something that makes people suicidal + hypertensive + aggressive?
    aggressivity is related to 468 (low serotonin levels leads to aggressivity, or in some cases reckless behaviour)

    suicidality is related to the same 468, because low serotonin levels can render the subject pessimistic

    hypertensivity (nervousness) is related to 567 (norepinephrin is responsible for mental activity)

    Enneagram theorists said 147 searches for ideals (perfection, beauty, happiness), 258 for power (to be loved, to know, to control), and 369 for approbation (adequacy, security, peace within himself).

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    Yeah, I thought 4s were suicidal, 6s were uptight+edgy and 5s -> 8s were more aggresive, hostile etc. - combined they sound like high blood pressure (see edited post above).
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    Default Re: hypothesis on TIM frequency

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    For example a baby with low dopamin level (or enneatypes 459) is likely to individuate as introtim. But I think if it would be treated with a constant stream of dopamin or coffee, he could possibly individuate as extrotim !
    I knew there was something I should have done to make my kids more extroverted! Maybe if I have another one I'll try it, LOL

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    EII-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    Yeah, I thought 4s were suicidal, 6s were uptight+edgy and 5s -> 8s were more aggresive, hostile etc. - combined they sound like high blood pressure (see edited post above).
    Dopamin is related to blood pressure, but I'm talking of 147-258-369 groups, because information is missing for them.

    I've done a Gulenko-ish "socionic" analysis to attempt to find the missing physiological component :

    dopamin is Sensory and is Physical.
    norepinephrin is Logical (or is it Intuitive ?) and is Intellectual.
    serotonin is Ethical and is Social.
    ??? is Intuitive (or is it Logical ?) and is Psychological.

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    I don't believe they are evenly distributed.
    I've read in one paper that there are 16% ESFJ woman, and 3% INTJ woman.
    This is a huge difference, and it should be noticable by any beginning socionist. So make a poll what everybody thinks...
    In my experience it's correct. ESFJ woman are everywhere.

    Secondly, extraverts are more risky so less extraverts exists, is a highly speculative statement with probably a lot of false assumptions as some of them have been mentioned in this topic.

    And by the way, the chance that you are born as a boy is not 50% but 52%. because Y chromosome weights less then an X chromosome. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    I don't believe they are evenly distributed.
    I've read in one paper that there are 16% ESFJ woman, and 3% INTJ woman.
    This is a huge difference, and it should be noticable by any beginning socionist. So make a poll what everybody thinks...
    In my experience it's correct. ESFJ woman are everywhere.

    Secondly, extraverts are more risky so less extraverts exists, is a highly speculative statement with probably a lot of false assumptions as some of them have been mentioned in this topic.

    And by the way, the chance that you are born as a boy is not 50% but 52%. because Y chromosome weights less then an X chromosome. :wink:
    They are "evenly distributed" on world population. Expect 48-52% for each trait.

    Women tend to be Ethical and Men tend to be Logical, with 30% exception rate ; this is related to brain lateralisation (left-right). Left Brain is NT, and Right Brain is SF. A woman can be N and a man can be S, because S and N are less complicated cognitive processes than T and F.

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    i'm curious machintruc,

    does your statement that all types are equally distributed, correspond to your own experiences?

    have you met as much (for example) INTJ women as ESFJ women

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    i'm curious machintruc,

    does your statement that all types are equally distributed, correspond to your own experiences?

    have you met as much (for example) INTJ women as ESFJ women
    No, I read it from Rick's site, and validated it by feelings.

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    yes i've read it once on the site of SG.

    but it just doesn't correspond with my own experiences. and with some mbti stuff that i read about it.

    ofcourse mbti and socionics could differ a bit but not by tens of percents i would think...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    yes i've read it once on the site of SG.

    but it just doesn't correspond with my own experiences. and with some mbti stuff that i read about it.

    ofcourse mbti and socionics could differ a bit but not by tens of percents i would think...
    Nobody said that types were strictly equally distributed. Some type will be .2-.3% more frequent or something.

    If you see the socion in that bias, SEI would be the most frequent type.

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