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Thread: ESI-IEI Benefit Relations (ISFj & INFp)

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    Default ESI-IEI Benefit Relations (ISFj & INFp)

    Over a year ago, an ISFj that I know (I'm fairly sure on his type, I couldn't imagine anything else) initiated a friendship with me out of the clear blue. He was fairly subtle and low-key but consistent. He would bring me books to borrow, he would wait for me in the hallway so that we could walk together, things like that. I was surprised when I finally noticed this and after paying more attention to our conversations, it hit me that we have a strong connection/attraction (which is consistent with the "spiritual connection" some have written about with the relations of benefit--this is not a romantic thing however). I am pretty sure that he feels it also and we have slowly and steadily built a good friendship over the past year. I can see some of what this person is getting from me--I'm an INFp--I see potential in him and I'm not afraid to encourage him in areas where he may be unsure of himself. It feels like he values this. He seems to like that I express my feelings. He seems willing to put up with my craziness and even seems to find it charming at times. There are areas in which he doesn't understand me such as my angst about regrets from the past, things I should have accomplished but didn't, etc, but we share many interests and very rarely disagree over anything.

    Anyway, the thing is, I'm unclear as to what exactly I'm getting from him, subconsciously. I have thought it over again and again in my mind (and I've read the Model A thing on this site a little bit but it's all very hard to figure out) but I can't seem to pinpoint *what it is* about this person that makes me need him. Obviously I must be getting something from him since theoretically he's my benefactor. I haven't felt upset with him or frustrated (at least not yet) the way that the relations of benefit sometimes end up, in fact it's been the opposite so far--things feel very close to perfect. Maybe in time it will go sour? Did someone here on the forums say you should avoid these relations? I used to feel so afraid that he would go away unexpectedly--it was a weird feeling and completely irrational but it lasted for months and months. I wondered in the past if we were actually activity partners because of the level of energy--we seem to inspire one another in some ways and then we need a short break from one another before coming back again for more. As an INFp/ISFj relationship of benefit, what function is he filling for me that I'm not seeing or understanding? (maybe socionics is unable to explain this and I realize we are talking about individuals and not just 'types' but the description of the relations of benefit in some ways seems to fit us very well so I am thinking I could be missing something) I am supposed to be feeding his hidden agenda, right? And he is supposed to feed my 5th function which is dual-seeking? Is that right? So what, specifically, does this mean? Am I supposed to consciously be getting more out of the relationship than he is? I know I must be getting something or else I wouldn't feel so strongly, but I can't figure out what that something is. (I read the description of my fifth function under my type but it didn't make any sense to me.)

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    What does he set his interests towards? You seem to know him pretty well. What is it he tries to get done?

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    His interests are primarily artistic, like mine. He is a gardener and I'm aspiring to that so I get advice from him, but that's not something I need to get from him necessarily, I see it only as information and a topic of mutual interest. We talk a lot about our kids--his are older than mine so I am always interested to hear his stories about them. I see him as a really good parent and I do look up to him in those areas. At his center, I don't know what he's trying to get done! He seems kind of settled into his life but I sense that maybe he would like to do more artistically. For instance, he used to draw and I have encouraged him to do that again and he seemed pleased with the idea but hasn't actually done it. We both love music also so we talk about that some. We also both share an interest in photography. One of his strengths is definitely design and aesthetics.

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    If you're an INFp, you want Se and if he's an ISFj, he's got it. So that would be the thing you'd be getting from him. I'm not that well versed on Se so I'll just post a link and someone else can probably give you more info.

    Se
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Okay so here's what the link says:

    outward traits of object - shape, old vs. young, worth or cost, appearance, energy of object, strength, readiness, willpower, mobilization
    Positive(short range):
    Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession;
    Negative (long range):
    Capture of authority, submission, attack, aggression, attack, the initiative, persistence, insistence, strong-willed pressure from top to down, the statement of the interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, lack of will, mastering.

    So...what does this mean? "outward traits of object" does that mean that if you have Se, you *notice* outward traits of objects or you *value* outward traits of objects or what? In the same way, under "positive (short range)" it lists "deduction of authority" for example. So what does that mean? "Insubordination"--does that mean that someone with Se is more likely to be insubordinate? I apologize for my denseness but the lists don't make sense to me although I appreciate the link!

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    Here's from an ISFj description:

    Se – ESI conducts her moral program into life with the persistence of volitional sense. But, in general, it is difficult to recognize this installation at a close distance since in practice it is disguised by external conformity, she ably feels and comprehends to mood of another and their attitude towards what is occurring.

    For a time she tries to tune, to exhibit delicacy, but eventually develops the tendency towards volitional pressure, especially in terms of putting her principles into practice against encountered obstacles. In such cases are developed the concealed (only at first glance) qualities of exacting demand and persistence. She is confident in her rightness. Finds it necessary to subordinate others to herself – through this she experiences a feeling of satisfaction but she does not openly demonstrate this.

    Her strong sense is represented in her economic activity: she’s zealous, honest and conscientious, especially in domestic circumstances. She generally keeps a lot of products in storage (i.e. buried, in a shed, garage). Always makes sure there are reserves. She makes sure that there is a minimum of waste, whether it is remaining floor panels or remainders of food products.

    This thrift contributes to allow her to accumulate a sufficient means in order to buy a necessary quantity of articles in daily life, which symbolize welfare – gifts for others, household machines etc. She obtains everything via honest labor and scrupulous economy, not by reckless adventure or by dishonest mechanizations – such would contradict her moral principles.
    And here's the description of Se in an ESTp (your dual):

    Se – program function. Basic qualities exemplified by SLE: volitional pressure, the uncontrollable desire for activity, sporting tone and resoluteness. They are people of activity; contemplation, as a way of life, is absolutely alien to them. They will attempt, by any means, to achieve their goals, their means of achievement are not hampered by ceremonial(i.e. bureaucratic) regulations.

    In their struggles SLE will never yield initiative. If necessary they will wait for the proper moment to act and will never forsake the opportunity at hand. Their influence is governed by their power, often they don’t think, to themselves of other [strange] ways to solve problems. Acting with pressure they do not submit themselves to the success of a common cause but rather are capable of entirely taking the responsibility of leadership amongst themselves. They are inflexible and rigid in conducting other people towards the execution of activities/problems. Decisively they manifest their interest in work and are not tormented or distracted by pangs in their consciousness, even if, for the achievement of their goals, they must pinch, punish or offend someone. When that, which they desire, is impossible to reach quickly and directly, they seek alternate routes and without fail tend to attain one.

    As a rule they are the innate leaders, organizers of work on any scale. Even in a new environment, or new spectrum of activity, previously alien to them, it remains possible to be confident that, sooner or later, they will prove capable of taking control. True, sometimes they emanate excessive pressure, in a volitional sense: everywhere where, in SLE’s opinion, something is under-fulfilled, or lacks completion, further work will be managed with their personal interference. Being energetic and ambitious, SLE assumes that the significance of an individual is determined by their situation in society, by the ability of the individual to attain their place in life; therefore they can prove to be, at times, intolerant, even rough, in terms of respect, with those with of lower status. They may consider another to be measly if that individual failed to reach a fitting place in the social hierarchy. On the other hand, those, whom possess authority in society, are worthy of respect.

    SLE will never resign, never allow themselves to be conquered. If forced to suffer humiliation they will gather the necessary force needed to take vengeance; they do not pardon offenses directed against them.
    The descriptions are from here
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Thank you! Okay so I'm going to chew on this for awhile. Sleep on it and probably post something tomorrow. I think there's plenty to think about there.

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    After thinking about it more, I think I might know what it is about this person that I admire. He shows absolutely no regret for his decisions. He seems to KNOW that he is right. He doesn't look back and wonder, about his life, about the car he bought, about the number of kids he has, about the school he attended or his career choice, about the beer he ordered. He's able to make a choice and be happy with it. I've had a problem with that because I focus so much on possibilities. My husband (who is ENTp, I believe) is a bit like me also. He hates to be the one to have to make a firm decision. He won't even order pizza because he can't decide what kind to get and doesn't want to have to think about those details. Those jobs are always mine (which is okay but can be annoying sometimes).

    I once had a conversation with this ISFj friend of mine and I revealed a bit too much about something and he basically told me I was being too honest. The surprising thing to me, though, was that I found myself agreeing with him and submitting myself to his standard. This is something I almost never do. Usually I would expect myself to argue with that, at least in my head. Instead I found myself feeling happy about it.

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    Default Discussion of Benefit Relations

    heh dont do it
    SEE Unknown Subtype
    6w7 sx/so



    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    heh dont do it
    I know! I'm surprised that there could be part of me that secretly likes being told what to do and then wants to obey. But that has only happened once. I think our relationship works better being assymmetrical for some reason. We are definitely not equals. It feels very much like I go to him for advice as if he were my big brother. It never works the other way around. He takes care of me in some ways as if I were a little sister. I guess maybe that's it right there. That's what I get from him. A big brother who thinks he knows the answers in life and is willing to listen to my dramas and give me a rational answer to my problems.

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    So I wonder why he keeps coming back for more. Maybe it will just take awhile for the annoyance to kick in. He usually seems amused by me but perhaps it's only a matter of time.

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    He keeps coming back because he doesn't have anyone in his life to give him support and assurance. But that is what INFp's are for for him. Once you boost his ego high enough, he'll get high and mighty with you, make you feel worthless, and then finally have the confidence to go after his dual or "equal".
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Default Re: Benefit Relations

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron
    ...
    My god, you just described a 'relationship' I have with a young woman at school exactly...

    Unnerving and embarassing to see what it really is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand
    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron
    ...
    My god, you just described a 'relationship' I have with a young woman at school exactly...

    Unnerving and embarassing to see what it really is.

    Why is it embarrassing? It is what it is. I don't regret my friendship nor am I going to bail just because it might go sour. Maybe that's asking for trouble I don't know but I intend to stick around and watch with interest how things go from here. Anyway what would I say "sorry I can't be friends with you anymore. I found out that our personality types clash and we're only asking for trouble to continue this friendship." I don't think so. Certainly if the negatives start to outweigh the positives, things will get scaled back. The writing may be on the wall, but I want to see it through because a) I won't truly understand it until I experience it (is that an INFp thing to say?) b) he has honestly been a good friend to me thus far and it wouldn't be fair to him and c) I've learned a lot about myself and others through our relationship and that's been valuable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    He keeps coming back because he doesn't have anyone in his life to give him support and assurance. But that is what INFp's are for for him. Once you boost his ego high enough, he'll get high and mighty with you, make you feel worthless, and then finally have the confidence to go after his dual or "equal".
    Are you talking about INFp->INTj or ISFj->INFp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by Clover
    He keeps coming back because he doesn't have anyone in his life to give him support and assurance. But that is what INFp's are for for him. Once you boost his ego high enough, he'll get high and mighty with you, make you feel worthless, and then finally have the confidence to go after his dual or "equal".
    Are you talking about INFp->INTj or ISFj->INFp?

    ISFj/INFp
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Anyway, the thing is, I'm unclear as to what exactly I'm getting from him, subconsciously. I have thought it over again and again in my mind (and I've read the Model A thing on this site a little bit but it's all very hard to figure out) but I can't seem to pinpoint *what it is* about this person that makes me need him. Obviously I must be getting something from him since theoretically he's my benefactor. (I read the description of my fifth function under my type but it didn't make any sense to me.)
    relations of benefit only go correctly if the benefactor is in a position to help the beneficiary

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    @darya I see you getting on well with the ESI on the forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by carrina View Post
    relations of benefit only go correctly if the benefactor is in a position to help the beneficiary
    The beneficiary says hi and takes note of the benefactor in qarmth of them that attention draws the benefactor to them. true but the benefactor sees the beneficiary's lack of something and draws them in and involves them

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    My friendships with IEIs crumble pretty quickly.
    I dated one, hated his emotional ups and downs. He had a really good heart but pretty much stated he wanted me to "save" him.
    And so.... I tried to hook him up with someone else so it would be his idea to just be friends bc he threatened self harm if I left. Bad idea. He then threatened to write about me in his future famous book. Would be a short and boring chapter.





    I think he finally found some Fe chick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    @darya I see you getting on well with the ESI on the forum
    I always get this weird feeling from a lot of ESI, like they just dismiss me or they don't like me and they don't even know why. I hate to be dismissed. So I try to maintain an emotional distance because in general I kinda admire their bluntness and softness at the same time but it's like I don't even feel a need to get emotionally tied up with them because experience has taught me that it doesn't go well. I have known a few ESI over the years and they rarely will see things from my perspective even though I try to meet them on "neutral territory". Even when they do see things from my perspective it comes off as grudgingly to me. I know I can be a stubborn person and I try to lighten up on my hold firm policies so a lot of it is my fault in situations where we had close relationships. I dunno... is that beneficiary behavior? I have only known female ESI in real life. I can't remember any males but there probably were.

    I looked it up...it sounds exactly like what I have experienced in the past. I can see now that my occasional bursts of ambition to playfully rise in the ranks of my own quadra often spills over into other quadras and that might have seemed out of line to some ESI I have known. I am kinda happy I didn't have access to this info then because I might have avoided relationships that had a positive effect on my life even if they weren't the happiest. Knowledge is power though so understanding is half the battle. I currently don't have any ESI to interact with irl.

    These relations are asymmetric: first partner relates to the second not in the same way as the later relates to the first. First partner, who is called request transmitter, or benefactor, looks at the second partner, called beneficiary, as someone who is a rank lower, underestimating him. The second partner, on the contrary, thinks that the other partner is an interesting, meaningful person, overestimating him at first.
    Beneficiary can become very fond of benefactor and admire his behavior, demeanor, ability to easily do that to which the beneficiary aspires, the style of his thoughts, his creative approach. In presence of benefactor, beneficiary unwittingly begins to try to win his favor, to please him, for some unknown reasons to himself. This starts with little things and then progresses more and more. From aside it looks as if the beneficiary is trying to somehow justify himself to the benefactor.
    At the same time there is something in behavior of benefactor that the beneficiary finds irritating. Those features that the benefactor demonstratively puts forward to attract attention and look good in public view seep into the subconscious of the beneficiary and awaken a vague desire to remove the conditions that make the benefactor act so unnaturally. The beneficiary may also be unaware what is it exactly that he is supposed to do? The issued request is not individual, but social in nature i.e. it encompasses problems of the groups of people to which this pair belongs.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I always get this weird feeling from a lot of ESI, like they just dismiss me or they don't like me and they don't even know why. I hate to be dismissed. So I try to maintain an emotional distance because in general I kinda admire their bluntness and softness at the same time but it's like I don't even feel a need to get emotionally tied up with them because experience has taught me that it doesn't go well. I have known a few ESI over the years and they rarely will see things from my perspective even though I try to meet them on "neutral territory". Even when they do see things from my perspective it comes off as grudgingly to me. I know I can be a stubborn person and I try to lighten up on my hold firm policies so a lot of it is my fault in situations where we had close relationships. I dunno... is that beneficiary behavior? I have only known female ESI in real life. I can't remember any males but there probably were.

    I looked it up...it sounds exactly like what I have experienced in the past. I can see now that my occasional bursts of ambition to playfully rise in the ranks of my own quadra often spills over into other quadras and that might have seemed out of line to some ESI I have known. I am kinda happy I didn't have access to this info then because I might have avoided relationships that had a positive effect on my life even if they weren't the happiest. Knowledge is power though so understanding is half the battle. I currently don't have any ESI to interact with irl.
    I was going to mention you too Aylen. I watched that happen to you a few times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    @darya I see you getting on well with the ESI on the forum
    Oh boy, I am the last person to ask about ESI's I know only one girl irl who I'm sure is an ESI and we're nothing more but acquaintances. So, my opinions on her... She's very pleasent and polite, always on her best behaviour in company, very well behaved, gracious, great posture, reserved, quiet, but at the same time self-confident. She's always polite with everybody, which is nice, as she could be very arrogant considering she looks like a supermodel.

    But...she's not really a person I would have as a close friend. Reasons: she seems very dull, like she read some manual how a perfect girl should be and is now following every step. She's a straight A student at a medical school, goes jogging every day for an hour and rock-climbing at weekends (she doesn't enjoy climbing but it's whats popular with her boyfriend and his friends), is always extremely polished , but at the same time her looks is understated and natural, although she spends thousands euros on hairdressers, body treatments, facial yoga, lasers... you get the idea. She has the air of old money. And ofc she's engaged to a super rich guy who owns a bunch of hotels too. Oh, and not to forget, she's also a great cook and bakes her guy cookies weekly, because that's what wifes do. She's basically a superwoman or some kind of Stepford wife. She's also planning to get pregnant in a year, not because she particularly wants a baby, but because she wants to be a young and hip mom (her words, not mine).

    All of this is kinda annoying in itself, but it's not the reason I wouldn't be her close friend. She's just so dull and doesn't have anything interesting or unique to say. All she talks about is Pilates, her studies and furniture. She's always boring in group of people, because she just sits stiffly and wants to have serious one-on-one conversations. She never says anything funny and you always feel like you have to behave properly around her.

    As to our relationship....on one hand I feel like she's kinda better than me, like I'm a mess compared to her, failed at life But on the other hand, I also think...god I'm awesome compared to this bore We're both friendly and neutral to each other, but very distant at the same time, a bit aloof. I'm not seeing any sort of beneficience going on. NOT my type of person, but I'm sure she feels the same.

    So...I'm very sure this girl is an ESI, but I'm really confused, as ESI's on this board seem really cool and interesting to me and I agree with them on most things I'm also confused as to what @lungs said how she's similar to one girl and would act similarly with her group of friends. Cause the girl I know is very uptight -you will never hear a raunchy thing coming out of her mouth. So, someone please enlighten me: Is this ESI particularly boring and proper, am I mistyping her, do ESI's differ a lot one from another or what is going on. I would really like to know more irl so I could compare, but they just don't seem to run in my circles.

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    Some translations I've done a while ago taken from the Russian socionics discussion forums on IEI-ESI benefit relations: Benefit relations observations


    George (LIE): I've met this pair before. I gathered from their phone conversation that the IEI is far from being able to give clear instructions. Many times I wanted to take over the phone myself and tell everything as it needs to be told. There is no logic in this pair (I mean strong logic). Their interactions move along without any visible results. It's something like an ethical whirlpool that just keeps spinning round and round.** Eventually the ESI feels tired and annoyed by this because she/he isn't getting any results on the suggestive function. This is all from my observations. Otherwise they're doing alright.
    [** Both IEI and ESI may feel like they are running in circles without getting much done also because both are Tactical types that have trouble aligning their actions with some long-term strategy or goal to organize their lives around, unlike their duals SLE and LIE, both Strategic types.]

    Baileys (ESI): I had a relationship with an IEI guy but didn't marry him. I felt like nothing was right, that in a year I'll be a widow with a criminal record. There are two female IEI in my circle: my sister and my friend. It's not easy. From both sides. Periodically we need a time-out from each other. I hurt them more often, than they hurt me.

    Miracle Worker (IEI): I have a friend of type Dreiser. We constantly argue due to his throat-cut rationalism and practicality. Only a few hours ago we were arguing whether there is any use in philosophy as a science. Likewise, he reduces art and religion down to what material benefit these bring. He has a thirst for justice e.g. he has quarreled with the college dean over undeserved, in his view, scores that ruined his red diploma. He was happy that the truth has triumphed no matter at what cost. My ESI friend's crazy workaholism and meticulous work ethic are unnerving. And yes, he is very capable of grounding anything by boiling it down to its concrete benefits and rationality.

    Super-Kaktus (IEI): I've used to chat with an ESI girl. It was a somewhat close friendship between us. Communication was very smooth, and over time we have became close over a number of similar interests and outlooks on life. In our conversations, my ESI friend would alternate between talking of her own alleged imperfections and the imperfections of the world, in which she was quick to become disappointed. Eventually she became disillusioned with me, and my "complaining and problems, which I simply don't want to solve once and for all" - in her words. ESIs complain, too, only they do it aggressively, rapidly switching between different subjects, something along the lines "I'm so stupid. The world is so full of stupid people in general. Now let's discuss how we could fix/destroy/reform it". She tried to keep our friendship to the very end, but then she abruptly broke it off and distanced from me so suddenly that I only saw her heels flashing, while I had cognitive dissonance and eyes the size of saucer plates from surprise.

    Drakosha (IEI): I liked an ESI guy for a while. I tried to attract his attention, flirt or something like it. The main feeling I got from our interaction is reminiscent of the movie "The Taming of the Shrew". Constant attempts to discipline from ESI's end. This was expressed as jabs and digs directed at me, at some of my personal qualities. Which to me meant: "You should change yourself!" And I could try changing, but I also saw that he doesn't really need this. The ESI guy simply made these prickly comments that he threw my way that weren't telling me of anything. And I don't get why is this needed? To what purpose? There is nothing he is trying to achieve, neither is he trying to offend me. Then why are all these jabs and prodding comments needed? In the end, while I was interacting with this ESI guy, I stopped understanding what is needed and expected of me and started feeling disoriented and somewhat anxious. I felt like something is being expected of me from his end, but I was lost as to what that might be. When I try to build a relationship with someone, it is preferable that I see at least a transparent contour of what my partner wants. I can guess, but it's better and more assuring for me when I ask a direct question to receive a direct response.

    Frost Mirriam (IEI): Once I have shown my ESI friend some of my creative writing - poetry written during the period of deep depression. She read it and said to me: "ew, this is so pretentious!" Since that time I don't show her my poetry anymore, and none of my other works.

    Dashu (IEI): Why does everything have to be described in such terrible colors? Yes, ESIs like to control everything and everyone, and drive them under the framework of their stereotypes and notions. It is impossible to argue with them because for them there is only one correct view - their own. At the same time, it's awesome when you are pulled out of another scruff, while a swift punch to the face is delivered to anyone who has dared to encroach on ESI's "Ni treasure" (figuratively speaking). The suggestive function of IEI (Se) is always satisfied. Although problems arise, even up to scandals, when ESI tries to impose her own views. Then there's a need to keenly maneuver between subduing one's own and another's anger, while still asserting one's own opinion. In general, living together with ESI for the IEI is similar to living on a gunpowder keg that periodically releases a cloud of smoke - all in all it's not that bad.

    Vitacha (IEI): ESIs support, that they provide from their 1st function Fi, is presented in such a way that it doesn't look like support to the IEI, but as, for example, a lecture on the evils of smoking. A thorough lecture, where the issue is meticulously sorted out. However, for IEIs Fi is a vital function - for them information of this kind is like a muddy current of dubious assumptions that seem to be not hinged or based on anything. Fi for ESIs is base or "background" function, so they typically don't notice how much everything that they say gets colored by it. So in a conversation between IEI and ESI, what the IEI hears from the ESI is this stream of seemingly baseless information that doesn't fit with how the IEI understands things to be and deals with people and relationships, including IEI's relationship with the ESI. More so, ESIs aren't EIIs - the later you can at least ignore or send somewhere far away, while the ESI will nitpick and watch carefully that you don't slip away from her control. This sense of constant -Fi pressuring and control is very aggravating in itself to the IEI.

    Nataly (IEI): I've been through these relations, married to an ESI man for 10 years. These relations were difficult for me for several reasons:
    1) Total control over my actions and some minor things. For example, coming back from work 20 minutes late was met with stern "onslaught" to the point that it was impossible for me to drop by a cafe with a friend after work.
    2) All my friends were considered to be almost like enemies - he needed all of my efforts, so what right did I have to get distracted away from him by my friends? As a result I started losing my friendships.
    3) Harsh pressuring on the topics of: "Why so proud amidst your poverty" or "Why are you learning a foreign language? Instead of occupying with this nonsense you should come up with something that could actually earn some money."
    4) In respect to his friends: "You are not a person of our circle, thus don't try to delve into matters that don't concern you." And in general: "I don't trust you."
    5) His policy regarding our relationship: "How about you do your thing, and I'll do mine. "Us" is only for bed."
    6) If I had some problems and referred to him for help and moral support, this would be his response: "First of all understand that these are your problems, so don't you dare to shout and cry in front of me, because I may not have patience with your hysterics and will "forcefully" put an end to them. When you have calmed down, I will tell you how you should behave to not get yourself into such stupid situations in the future."
    Needless to say, after 10 years of such treatment my self-esteem has dropped to nothing. If you are ready to spend your life discussing your emotions without any emotion, if you consider that the closeness and intimacy of your relationships with your husband should be strictly regulated and "dosed", if you consider that everything you do should earn money or at least bring some material result, then this is the relationship for you.
    What is also interesting is that as many new methods and technologies as the IEI offers to the ESI, the ESI doesn't appreciate and doesn't accept advice coming from such a hapless in ESI's eyes person. The ESI wants you to implement and work through all these technologies and methods yourself rather than simply give advice.
    S-C: I have heard of, and observed myself, the following scenario: The benefactor finds a beneficiary. For example, an ESI in search of a life partner and without experience of dual relations finds an IEI, who is nice, feminine, emotionally stable, soulful and sincere, fitting of the image of what the ESI appreciates in people. The IEI reacts to the ESI positively - the ESI with his/her creative volitional sensing and rationality fits the IEI's ideal of what "a real man/woman" should be like. The IEI seems to ESI rather helpless, but if the ESI is intellectually inclined, they get drawn into various interesting conversations. Thus a relationship develops between them. Over time, ESI's ignoring or limiting Fe wears out IEI's strong creative Fe function. Their interaction proceeds more harmoniously on sensing-intuition related topics, rather than topics pertaining to logic-ethics. Trying to sort out logic-ethics will make it clear to both of them that these relations are far from their ideal and prompt them to distance.

    Cassiopea (IEI): The relationship that I have with my ESI husband is terrible. It will be good for a couple of days, then he begins digging in and nitpicking me. He criticizes and tries to re-educate me. He is constantly dissatisfied by something, and teaches, teaches, teaches ... And this feeling that I'm so horrible while he's so good, that I won't make it without him and will only be able to find some alcoholic (he doesn't drink or smoke) - this feeling he has beaten into me so deeply that it became my neurotic complex. I look like a cornered animal who only expects another educational "blow" from him. But I don't want to quarrel, I want to believe that everything will be okay, that things will get better, that we will find a compromise, and I concede ... and in the end I feel like I am losing myself. I send him away and distance, but I'll still feel guilty, and after a couple of days I will forget everything and call him again ... and then everything starts again. Yes, he really is a very good person - kind, caring, loves children, loyal ... but I'm just not his ideal. And in my mind I know that I will never be, but in my heart I still want to believe that things will get better ...

    Doverchivaya (IEI): With ESIs good relations develop only when we see each other infrequently. Seeing and speaking to each other often, with their endless dissatisfaction and incontestable demands, is very difficult and requires a lot of patience. All the time you feel like you owe something, like you're obliged - and this is awful, brrr! Cassiopea, to deal with your ESI husband's criticisms try to abstract away and not take it personally. Let him nag and criticize the air around himself, meanwhile you can think of something else. Sooner or later he'll get tired of it. Maybe he is a wonderful person, but do you really need to be in a family where you're hiding in corners and slowly going crazy?

    Tori25 (ESI): Cassiopea, these relations will not change. You are different. Sorry if I'm very categorical, but your ESI husband will continue this relationship until the very last. He's unlikely to break it off himself, and eventually both of you will start to hate one another. You have to decide this for yourself. Adapting and agreeing with everything won't work. You will accumulate a lot of irritation that will pour out into angry outbursts. You'll feel yourself a cornered animal, that is incapable of anything, that can't do anything right, whose hands grow from the wrong place and whose head isn't working properly. It's awful. Along with this, you'll continue seeing your ESI husband as a good person. Over time, this will cause an enormous loss of self-esteem. You'll stop liking yourself, become closed off, neurotic and hysterical. So my advice to you, if you don't want to lose yourself, if you want to enjoy your life, the sun and fresh breeze outside, and notice the smiles of the people and respond to them without fear - you need to leave. Believe me, no matter how you want to change something in your relationship with him - everything will change for exactly that amount of time, until there is another "episode" and he will immediately forgets his previous promises. Because you cannot change another person's character. It is already formed, a certain picture of the world is already imprinted, both for you and for him. And they are very different pictures. And nothing can change this.

    Kobra (IEI): My mother is of type ESI. Intellectually our relations are very good, but in everything else ... she often feels that I am not sensitive enough** and not responsive enough towards her, while I don't understand why she cannot tell this to me in a way that isn't hurtful to me, but then, I don't always interpret what she says in the way that she has meant it. I don't feel supported by her. Very often her words painfully sting me. It turns out that I'm always wrong, and by this I feel emotionally pressured and suppressed by her, while my reaction to her emotional pressuring is often upsetting to her.
    [**Problematic in IEI-ESI relations is that fact that IEI's Fe falls on ESI's ignoring or limiting function. Thus all the tenderness, love, and affection that IEIs express through creative Fe is simply left out of ESI's perception - it is unintentionally ignored by them. Thus, ESIs may see IEIs as being insensitive, not warm and kind enough, even wicked, due to peculiarities of ESI's own TIM model that completely ignores IEI's ethical expression.]

    scary_miracle (IEI): My type is IEI, my mom is of type ESI. On the positive side, I have learned from her, and finally understood for myself, that it's better to do some things right now, so that they don't hang over my head later. I became more thrifty and economical, started paying more attention to the material quality of things that I buy, try to manage my budget and not overspend. About the negatives: I am tired of her saying: "Attitude/relation is shown by actions, not by words." Sometimes I just want for someone to love me and need me as I am, to let me know that it will really suck for them to be without me. I cannot interpret material care as a proof of love. When we quarrel, several times I've caught myself saying, "I understand now - what you really need is a housekeeper and a rote memorizer, but what's inside me, what's in my soul, you care nothing of it!" Sometimes she will say something as a joke and it will sound offensive and crudish to me. I feel like she is killing my personality. She would say things like "it would have been good to do this" or "it would be good to think like that" and then later "I didn't force you to do anything! Don't you have your own head on the shoulders?" And make of this whatever you wish ...**
    Additionally, my style in clothing is also being slowly destroyed, and again only from the 'best intentions': "You don't understand anything, you don't have your own style, I will teach you how to dress." Then, there are reprimands from my ESI mother regarding me being too dreamy and impractical: "Enough flying in the clouds, come down to earth!" - what does she care if I spend some time in contemplation? Eventually, an understanding and a decision on what needs to be done finally hits me, but no, "come down now!". As a result, I don't want to tell her anything of my future plans and dreams. As soon as I begin sharing, instead of catching the main idea, the spirit of it, my ESI mother begins to analyze and dissect it, and point out how it's lacking and unrealizable. Yes, I know myself that my plans are a bit "raw" and need further work, but try to understand the main point, the "salt" of it - why does she have such a desire to cut them down right away? After our quarrels she likes to moralize with implicit hints at how she is so good, so right, so correct, so patient, etc. -sigh- right now we coexist somehow, but I wouldn't call this living.
    [** The beneficiary is often hyper-attentive to benefactor's wishes and wants, which the beneficiary subconsciously interprets as calls to realize them. The benefactor is often surprised after the fact, since the benefactor has not directly told or forced the beneficiary to do anything.]

    Ensoleiller (IEI): +1 scary_miracle, some these positives and negatives were similar to my relationship with my ESI mother. What gets to me in these relations is that I understand her, and I'm willing to go for a compromise, because I love her and am grateful for everything that she does. But from her side it's like a blank wall. There is no understanding - only a total unwillingness to understand. And I am lost as to why??** I'm not talking about support - just for her to stop criticizing and inserting sticks into my wheels. Latest surprise: I opened up my own small business. My mother, without asking me a single question, went to a LIE girl who is 5 years younger than me (19 and 24) but whom she considers to be "serious", and started asking her questions: what am I doing? am I acting right towards other people? is there something that I'm doing wrong? Only later did she come talk to me. For me this was a slap on the face, considering that this LIE girl has set me up and let me down before and later came to ask for my forgiveness. My mother's actions to me constitute a betrayal by the person closest to me. That she admires this girl and sets her as an example for me ... even knowing about socionics such development in our relationship was painful for me to accept.
    [** These are classical benefit relations where the beneficiary doesn't feel like the benefactor hears her: IEI's creative function falls on ignoring aka limiting function of ESI, thus what the IEI tries to convey by creative function simply gets ignored by the ESI and the IEI feels like the ESI doesn't hear, doesn't understand.]
    Frost Mirriam (IEI): My mom is also ESI - and this is brutal. We can co-exist normally only if we're separated by X number of kilometers. When we live together we quarrel every day. She irritates me by her grounded sarcastic rationalism, that sometimes she takes to the point of absurdity. Her attempts to pressure me drive me mad. She also regularly reads me morals, saying that I am lazy, that I don't do anything - by this she tries to give me "a Se kick", to somehow stimulate me to frantic activity. She compares me to my peers who are more successful in her opinion. If something is forbidden, she starts to carefully explain why it is so, and usually it boils down to "because the current of things is very bad, and doing anything is irrational", instead of just saying "no" in such a way that I would have no further questions. When I'm getting ready to leave the house, every 5 minutes I am told how much time is left and hurried up (weak intuition). In general, constant hurrying is the favorite activity of both my ESI friend and my ESI mother. They also have a similar, and very specific, sense of humor.

    Naivety (IEI): Ok, so I want to cook something or do something useful around the house. I ask my ESI mother a specific question and instead of receiving a concrete answer I get a half an hour long lecture where the total useful information for me is "I don't know, I use ingredients by the eye". After this I start inquiring about approximate portions and common methods. While I'm trying to get the answer that I need, my nerves get seriously tested, and I feel that I should run away, somewhere deep into the forest, before all of this ends with me becoming hysterical. And then I get criticized that I didn't do something well or that I took too long to do it. For conversation my ESI mother has entire two topics: education and faults of the younger generation. ESIs also don't listen! They ask something, but then proceed to do things their own way. Why ask in the first place? One day I return from a trip and my mom asks me whether to prepare some food for me. I say "no thanks" that I bought some products on the way back and I'll cook something myself. Then I go to another room to unpack my bags. Suddenly I hear sounds coming from the kitchen. I look and there is my mother heating the milk that I was saving for an omelette. This is what I don't understand: why do something when you were told that it's not needed to be done? Ok, so my mom is only trying to help me, right? Everything is good and fine. Only within half an hour I get a lecture from her about how lazy I am, how I cannot plan anything, such that she always has to help me and do things for me.** Sorry for the morning outcry!
    [** The benefactor is perceptive of beneficiary's insufficient dual-seeking function. In this case, the ESI mother feels her IEI daughter's weakness in Te - poor ability to rationally organize her activities and plan her actions - and tries to help her prepare a meal at the same time criticizing her for this perceived flaw, while the IEI daughter does not understand why she's doing this.]

    gala83 (IEI): My mom is also Dreiser - I wouldn't wish this upon anyone! Dreiser will do everything for the good of her children: will make decisions for them, give them the magical "Se kick in the behind", can even materially provide for them at the beginning - just do as you're being told, go to school, get a degree in finance, every day clean and organize your home, lead a budget, be a rational type, be an LSE, be anyone but yourself. Everything good that there is in the IEI the ESI simply doesn't notice. She attempts to remake the IEI's personality, to turn the IEI inside out. Meanwhile, my LSE sister would be set as an example for me. Now I work in an office. I feel unhappy, inhibited and suppressed, my life feels empty. The expression on my face most of the time is unemotional, serious, and focused. I tried talking with my mother, telling her that I'm not living my life - her reply was: "Everyone lives this way, and nothing terrible happens to them." Then once again I begin to see that my own mother is not my friend but an enemy. She thinks that I am rude, that I have poor character, that I'm too callous and insensitive. But she cannot imagine how year after year I had to break myself to fit into her ideal image of a daughter. It's very difficult to not be yourself, to have to wear a mask day after day. I've taken up painting. She said go ahead, paint, no one is stopping you, but do it on your free time as a hobby. When I create something exceptionally beautiful and it is admired and asked for by my friends - and then I feel truly happy!!! But later, ESI's 'program' takes over again and things become grey, lifeless, materially shallow, without any deep meaning or purpose.
    Luiren (SLE): On topic, I've watched two of these benefit pairs over twenty long years. One was of ESI mother and IEI daughter. Vivid relations in all their glory, but in this case I felt somewhat sorry for the ESI because any of her attempts to influence the IEI during the period of IEI's creative crisis (which was permanent btw) turned into Hysterics with a capital letter H. I have actually understood that the IEI was waiting for the SLE's "face->table -- end of kitty" reaction, while what she got from her ESI mother was a couple of scathing, caustic remarks, which would leave her feeling as if she was just spit at. And from this she would become hysterical and try to run away into the sunset.
    In these relations it's crucial to have a wish to adapt and to try to understand what the other party means in a slightly different interpretation. ESI's can be explained what they're doing wrong, and adequate persons of this type will even try to change, fix, and correct things. The main thing is to remember that you should 1) simply tell the ESI of your experiences and your feelings 2) be ready to receive and accept their response. Communicate with them over feelings. As your dual I know this quite well. Often IEIs will drive themselves into a corner and start over-reacting to ESI's every word. This is generally bad, especially with ESIs because it drives them into stupor. They will start looking for causes of such a reaction in themselves, in you, in everything around them, and will utterly exhaust themselves (and you) with this.
    The second example I observed was of IEI-ESI sisters, where the IEI was the older of the two. An exemplar of this type of which one can tell legends of the "Spherical IEI in a Vacuum". The ESI is now a serious lady, but previously she was a boisterous youngster who used to prod and provoke the IEI when they were kids. After such provocations, the IEI would go complain to their mother and the ESI would get punished, which she was convinced was injustice, proceed to feel wronged and offended, and repeat the same. Now every word that comes from the ESI from "Clean the dishes!" to "Get a job, stupid!" brings the IEI to tears. While I, as an outside observer, couldn't understand what was happening. Talking later to the IEI I found out that she simply cannot refuse the ESI, thus she feels like she is being used, and this is making her very upset and driving her crazy. While the ESI, as an ethical type, cannot remain silent while she's being accused of something she hasn't done and is not guilty of in her view.
    Actually, I came across quite adequate examples of type Dreiser. Ready to listen, to establish contact. But it would all come apart after an emotional explosion. As a logical type, this is hard for me to understand. Just talk more with your significant other about your experiences. And turn a deaf ear when he tries to sort out where to place blame. It's just ... their type. And remember, you aren't to blame for all these "sins". I myself live very well in supervision relations with Dreiser. Yes, sometimes they are dense, but you have to speak to them. They don't understand hysterics. At all. With love, your dual.

    -- from VK discussions: https://vk.com/topic-38580757_26674174 Both IEI and ESI are introverts, so most likely they will quietly sit together somewhere, like a cafe, and talk, rather than visit places with large crowds of people. Each of them has their own "inner world", which is quite sufficient for both of them. After getting acquainted, the IEI wins over the trust of the Guardian by his sincerity and his bright ideas and fantasies. The IEI is able to relax the ESI's state of internal control and alleviate ESI's tension and stress with affection and tenderness. With him one can dream, talk about ideals, about the eternal and the bright. However, beyond some point the ESI ceases to understand what the IEI is trying to tell him. IEI's abstract worlds stop being of interest to the ESI, causing only irritation. Problems also arise over some measure of impracticality and carelessness of the IEI. Trying to make Esenin follow some rules the ESI may be faced with a sharp rebuff: "Don't tell me how to live!" In general, IEIs respond positively to attempts to organize them and give them structure, but the main thing is to not overdo it, which is where the ESI can overstep certain limits causing irritation and frustration for the IEI. ESIs themselves like having control over the situation, but only as long as the ESI doesn't find him/herself doing everything for his or her partner. In general these are good relations. Conflicts don't come by frequently. Appreciate your IEIs and they will reply with an incorruptible and pure love.
    Last edited by silke; 12-07-2016 at 04:35 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post

    Nataly (IEI): I've been through these relations, married to an ESI man for 10 years. These relations were difficult for me for several reasons:
    1) Total control over my actions and some minor things. For example, coming back from work 20 minutes late was met with stern "onslaught" to the point that it was impossible for me to stop by a cafe with a friend after work.
    2) All my friends were considered to be almost like enemies - he needed all of my efforts, so what right did I have to get distracted away from him by my friends? As a result I started losing my friendships.
    3) Harsh pressuring on the topics of: "Why so proud amidst your poverty" or "Why are you learning a foreign language? Instead of occupying with this nonsense you should come up with something that could actually earn some money."
    4) In respect to his friends: "You are not a person of our circle, thus don't try to delve into matters that don't concern you." And in general: "I don't trust you."
    5) His policy regarding our relationship: "How about you do your thing, and I'll do mine. "Us" is only for bed."
    6) If I had some problems and referred to him for help and moral support, this would be his response: "First of all understand that these are your problems, so don't you dare to shout and cry in front of me, because I may not have patience with your hysterics and will "forcefully" put an end to them. When you have calmed down, I will tell you how you should behave to not get yourself into such stupid situations in the future."
    Needless to say, after 10 years of such treatment my self-esteem has dropped to nothing. If you are ready to spend your life discussing your emotions without any emotion, if you consider that the closeness and intimacy of your relationships with your husband should be strictly regulated and "dosed", if you consider that everything you do should earn money or at least bring some material output, then this is the relationship for you. What's interesting is that as many new methods and technologies as the IEI offers to the ESI, the ESI doesn't appreciate them and doesn't accept advice coming from such a hapless in his or her eyes person. The ESI wants you to work through all these technologies and methods yourself.
    Well, I don't believe that's a fair representation of ESI males, at all. Most of those I know are fairly easygoing people, meaning, they will never ever get in your face shouting orders or try to control you - at most they may try to "correct" you. Yep, they complain a lot, but you just have to show them some pictures of naked women or suggest them to go drink a beer and they'll stop.

    From IEI's side, I think it's a very grave mistake to try to understand and compromise during a quarrel with a creative sensing type. Your aim should be to destroy them with logic during the first 2-3 quarrels, such that they won't quarrel anymore and the relationship can develop harmoniously afterwards, basically setting very clear boundaries as to what they can and what they can't say around you in an algorithmic way.
    Last edited by FDG; 06-15-2014 at 04:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Oh boy, I am the last person to ask about ESI's I know only one girl irl who I'm sure is an ESI and we're nothing more but acquaintances. So, my opinions on her... She's very pleasent and polite, always on her best behaviour in company, very well behaved, gracious, great posture, reserved, quiet, but at the same time self-confident. She's always polite with everybody, which is nice, as she could be very arrogant considering she looks like a supermodel.

    But...she's not really a person I would have as a close friend. Reasons: she seems very dull, like she read some manual how a perfect girl should be and is now following every step. She's a straight A student at a medical school, goes jogging every day for an hour and rock-climbing at weekends (she doesn't enjoy climbing but it's whats popular with her boyfriend and his friends), is always extremely polished , but at the same time her looks is understated and natural, although she spends thousands euros on hairdressers, body treatments, facial yoga, lasers... you get the idea. She has the air of old money. And ofc she's engaged to a super rich guy who owns a bunch of hotels too. Oh, and not to forget, she's also a great cook and bakes her guy cookies weekly, because that's what wifes do. She's basically a superwoman or some kind of Stepford wife. She's also planning to get pregnant in a year, not because she particularly wants a baby, but because she wants to be a young and hip mom (her words, not mine).

    All of this is kinda annoying in itself, but it's not the reason I wouldn't be her close friend. She's just so dull and doesn't have anything interesting or unique to say. All she talks about is Pilates, her studies and furniture. She's always boring in group of people, because she just sits stiffly and wants to have serious one-on-one conversations. She never says anything funny and you always feel like you have to behave properly around her.

    As to our relationship....on one hand I feel like she's kinda better than me, like I'm a mess compared to her, failed at life But on the other hand, I also think...god I'm awesome compared to this bore We're both friendly and neutral to each other, but very distant at the same time, a bit aloof. I'm not seeing any sort of beneficience going on. NOT my type of person, but I'm sure she feels the same.

    So...I'm very sure this girl is an ESI, but I'm really confused, as ESI's on this board seem really cool and interesting to me and I agree with them on most things I'm also confused as to what @lungs said how she's similar to one girl and would act similarly with her group of friends. Cause the girl I know is very uptight -you will never hear a raunchy thing coming out of her mouth. So, someone please enlighten me: Is this ESI particularly boring and proper, am I mistyping her, do ESI's differ a lot one from another or what is going on. I would really like to know more irl so I could compare, but they just don't seem to run in my circles.
    I'm raunchy and blurt things out all the time. Also kind of moody.


    how the hell does she afford all those treatments and is in medical school? (what's the point of going to med school if you just want to be a stay at home mom after?)..(gross).

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    Lol that's how I generally feel towards ILI my own benefit. I get along with my mom when we're not living together and when we're miles away. This is why I would love to move farther but she's so reliant on my company that I feel for her when I think of doing this.



    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Some translations I've done a while ago taken from the Russian socionics discussion forums on IEI-ESI benefit relations:


    George (LIE): I've met this pair before. From their phone conversation, I understood that IEI is far from being able to provide clear instructions. Many times I wanted to take the phone myself and tell everything as it should be told. There is no logic in this pair (I mean strong logic). Their interaction and conversations move along without any visible result. It's something like an ethical whirlpool that just keeps spinning round and round. Eventually ESI feels tired and annoyed by this because she/he isn't seeing any results on his suggestive function. This is all from my observations. Otherwise they're doing alright.

    Baileys (ESI): I had a relationship with an IEI guy but didn't marry him. I felt like nothing was right, that in a year I'll be a widow with a criminal record. There are two IEI girls in my circle: my sister and my friend. It's not easy. From both sides. Periodically we need a "time-out" from our relationship. I hurt them more often than they hurt me.

    Miracle Worker (IEI): I have a friend of type Dreiser. We constantly argue due to his throat-cut rationalism and practicality. Only a few hours ago we were arguing whether there is any use in philosophy as a science. Likewise, he reduces art and religion down to what material benefit they bring. He has a thirst for justice e.g. quarreled with the Dean over undeserved, in his view, scores that ruined his red diploma. He was happy that the truth has triumphed no matter at what cost. His crazy workaholism and meticulous work ethic are unnerving. And yes, he is very capable of grounding anything by boiling it down to its concrete benefits and rationality.

    Super-Kaktus (IEI): I've chatted with this one ESI girl, it was to a degree a close friendship between us. Communication was very smooth, we intersected over a number of similar interests and views on life. She would vacillate between her own alleged imperfections and the imperfections of the world, in which she would quickly become disillusioned. Eventually she became disillusioned with me, and my "complaining and problems, which I don't want to solve once and for all". Although ESIs complain also, only they do it aggressively and with switching over between different subjects, something along the lines "I'm so stupid, the world is so full of stupid people in general - now let's discuss how we could fix/destroy/reform it". I understand that she tried to keep close to the end, then she broke off and distanced so suddenly that I only saw her heels flashing, while I had cognitive dissonance and the eyes the size of the saucer plates.

    Nataly (IEI): I've been through these relations, married to an ESI man for 10 years. These relations were difficult for me for several reasons:
    1) Total control over my actions and some minor things. For example, coming back from work 20 minutes late was met with stern "onslaught" to the point that it was impossible for me to stop by a cafe with a friend after work.
    2) All my friends were considered to be almost like enemies - he needed all of my efforts, so what right did I have to get distracted away from him by my friends? As a result I started losing my friendships.
    3) Harsh pressuring on the topics of: "Why so proud amidst your poverty" or "Why are you learning a foreign language? Instead of occupying with this nonsense you should come up with something that could actually earn some money."
    4) In respect to his friends: "You are not a person of our circle, thus don't try to delve into matters that don't concern you." And in general: "I don't trust you."
    5) His policy regarding our relationship: "How about you do your thing, and I'll do mine. "Us" is only for bed."
    6) If I had some problems and referred to him for help and moral support, this would be his response: "First of all understand that these are your problems, so don't you dare to shout and cry in front of me, because I may not have patience with your hysterics and will "forcefully" put an end to them. When you have calmed down, I will tell you how you should behave to not get yourself into such stupid situations in the future."
    Needless to say, after 10 years of such treatment my self-esteem has dropped to nothing. If you are ready to spend your life discussing your emotions without any emotion, if you consider that the closeness and intimacy of your relationships with your husband should be strictly regulated and "dosed", if you consider that everything you do should earn money or at least bring some material output, then this is the relationship for you. What's interesting is that as many new methods and technologies as the IEI offers to the ESI, the ESI doesn't appreciate them and doesn't accept advice coming from such a hapless in his or her eyes person. The ESI wants you to work through all these technologies and methods yourself.

    Drakosha (IEI): I liked an ESI guy for a while. I tried to attract his attention, flirt or something like it. The main feeling I got from this interaction is reminiscent of the movie "The Taming of the Shrew". Constant attempts to discipline. This was expressed by the way of jabs and digs pointed at me, or some of my personal qualities. Which to me meant: "you should change yourself". And I could try changing, but I also see that he doesn't really need this. There simply are these prickly comments he throws my way that aren't telling of anything. And I don't get why is this needed? for what purpose? There is nothing he is trying to achieve, neither is he trying to offend me. Then why are such comments needed? So while I was interacting with this ESI guy, I stopped understanding what is needed and expected of me and started feeling disoriented and somewhat anxious. I felt like something is being expected of me from his end, but I was lost as to what that might be ... When I try to build a relationship with someone, it is preferable that I see at least a transparent contour of what my partner wants. I can guess, but it's better and more assuring for me when I can ask a direct question and receive a direct answer.

    S-C: I've often heard of and observed the following scenario: The benefactor finds a beneficiary. For example, an ESI in search of a life partner and without experience of dual relations finds an IEI, who is nice, feminine, emotionally stable, soulful and sincere, fitting of the image of what the ESI appreciates in people. The IEI reacts to the ESI positively - the ESI with his volitional creative sensing and rationality fits IEI's ideal of a "real man". The IEI seems to ESI rather helpless, but if the ESI is also intellectually inclined, they become drawn into various interesting conversations. Thus their relations begin. With time, the ESI's ignoring or limiting Fe will wear out the IEI's strong creative Fe function. Their interaction is more harmonious over sensing-intuitive than over logic-ethics. Trying to sort out logic-ethics will make it clear to both of them that these relations are far from their ideal and encourage them to separate.

    Vitacha (IEI): ESI provides support from base Fi. However, it is presented in a way that doesn't look like support to the IEI, but as, for example, a lecture on the evils of smoking. A thorough lecture, where the issue is meticulously sorted out. However, Fi for IEIs is a vital function - for them this kind of information is a like a muddy current of assumptions - without clearly structured Ti this murky inflow coming from Dreiser seems not hinged on anything. For ESIs, Fi is base or "background" function; they don't notice how much everything that they say is tied to it. So what the IEI hears from the ESI is this constant stream of some useless information. Useless because it doesn't fit, doesn't match with how the IEI views and deals with people and their behavior, and his or her relationship with the ESI. More so, ESIs aren't EIIs - the later you can at least ignore or send somewhere far away, while the ESI will press on and watch carefully that you won't slip away. This constant -Fi pressuring is very aggravating in itself.

    Cassiopea (IEI): The relationship that I have with my ESI husband is terrible. It will be good for a couple of days, and then he begins digging in and nitpicking on me. He criticizes and tries to re-educate me. He is constantly dissatisfied by something, and teaches, teaches, teaches ... And this feeling that I'm so horrible, while he's so good, that I won't make it without him, and will only be able to find some alcoholic (he doesn't drink or smoke). He's beaten this feeling so deeply into me that it became a complex. I look like a cornered animal who only expects another educational "discharge" from him. But I don't want to quarrel, I want to believe that everything will be okay, that things will get better, that we will find a compromise, and I concede ... and in the end I feel like I am losing myself. I send him away and distance, but I'll still feel guilty, and after a couple of days I will forget everything and call him again ... and then everything will start again. Yes, he really is a very good person, kind, caring, loves children, loyal ... but I'm just not his ideal. In my mind I know I will never be, but in my heart I still want to believe ...

    Doverchivaya (IEI): With Dreisers good relations develop only when we see each other infrequently. Seeing one another too often, with their endless dissatisfaction and incontestable demands, is very difficult and requires a lot of patience. All the time you feel like you owe something, like you're obliged - and this is awful, brr! Cassiopea, to deal with his criticisms try to abstract away and not take it personally. Let him nag and criticize the air around himself, meanwhile you can think of something else. Sooner or later he'll get tired of it. May be he is a wonderful person, but do you really need to be in a family where you're hiding in corners and slowly going crazy?

    Tori25 (ESI): Cassiopea, these relations will not change. You are different. Sorry if I'm very categorical, but your Dreiser will continue this relationship until the very last. He's unlikely to break them up himself, and eventually both of you will start to hate each another. You have to decide this for yourself. Adapting and agreeing with everything won't work. You will accumulate a lot of irritation that will translate into angry splashes. You'll feel yourself a cornered animal, that is incapable of anything, that can't do anything right, whose hands grow from the wrong place and whose head is not working properly. It's awful. Along with this, you'll continue seeing him as a good person. Over time, this will cause an enormous loss of self-esteem. You'll stop liking yourself, become closed off, neurotic and hysterical. So my advice to you, if you don't want to lose yourself, if you want to enjoy your life, the sun and fresh wind outside, and notice the smiles of the people and respond to them without fear - you need to leave. Believe me, no matter how you want to change something in your relationship with him - everything will change for exactly that amount of time, until there is another "episode" and he will immediately forgets his previous promises. Because you cannot change a person's character. It is already formed, a certain picture of the world is already imprinted, both for you and for him. And they are very different pictures. And nothing can be done about this.

    Frost Mirriam (IEI): Once I have shown my ESI friend some of my creative writing - poetry written during the period of deep depression. She read it and said to me: "ew, this is so pretentious!" Since that time I don't show her my poetry anymore, and none of my other works.

    Kobra (IEI): My mother is of type ESI. Intellectually our relations are very good. But in everything else ... she often feels that I am not sensitive and responsive enough towards her, while I don't understand why she cannot tell this to me in a way that isn't hurtful, but then, I don't always interpret what she says in the way that she means it. I don't feel supported by her. Very often her words sting me, it turns out that I'm always in the wrong, by this I feel emotionally pressured and suppressed by her. My counter-reaction to this emotional pressure is often offensive to her.

    scary_miracle (IEI): My type is IEI, my mom is of type ESI. On the positive side, from her I learned and finally understood that it's better to do some things right now, so that they don't hang over my head later. I became more thrifty and economical, started paying more attention to the quality of things I purchase, try to manage my budget and not overspend. About the negatives: I am tired of her saying "Attitude/relation is shown by actions, not by words." Sometimes I just want for someone to love me and need me as I am, to let me know that it will really suck without me. I cannot interpret material care as a proof of love. When we quarrel, several times I've caught myself saying, "I understand now - what you really need is a housekeeper and a rote memorizer, but what's inside me, what's in my soul, you care nothing of it!" Sometimes she will say something as a joke and it will sound offensive to me. I feel like she is killing my personality. She would say things like "it would have been good to do this" or "it would be good to think like that" and then later "I didn't force you to do anything! Don't you have your own head on the shoulders?" And make of this whatever you wish ... Additionally, my style in clothing is also being slowly destroyed, and again only with the "best intentions": "You don't understand anything, you don't have your own style, I will teach you how to dress ..." Then there are reprimands in being too dreamy and frivolous: "Enough flying in the clouds, come down to earth!" What does she care if I spend some time thinking? At some point, an understand and the decision on what needs to be done hits me ... but no, "come down now!". As a consequence, I don't want to tell her anything of my future plans and dreams. As soon as I begin sharing, instead of catching the main idea, the spirit of it, my ESI mother begins to analyze and dissect, to point out how it's inadequate and unrealizable. Yes, I know myself that my plans are a bit "raw", that they need further work, but understand the main point, the "salt" of it - why is there such a need to cut it down right away? After our quarrels she likes to moralize, where there are implicit hints at how she is so good, so right, so correct, so patient, etc. Right now we coexist somehow, I wouldn't call this living.

    Ensoleiller (IEI): +1 scary_miracle, some these positives and negatives were similar to my relationship with my ESI mother. What gets to me in these relations is that I understand her, and I'm willing to go for a compromise, because I love her and am grateful for everything that she does. But from her side it's like a blank wall. There is no understanding - only a total unwillingness to understand. And I am lost as to why??* I'm not talking about support, just for her to stop criticizing and inserting sticks in my wheels. Latest surprise: I opened up my own small business. My mother, without asking me anything, went to a LIE girl who is 5 years younger than me (24 and 19) but whom she considers to be "serious", and started asking her questions: what am I doing? am I acting right towards other people? is there something that I'm doing wrong? Only later did she come to talk to me. For me this was a slap on the face, considering that this LIE girl has set me up once and later came to ask me for forgiveness. My mother's actions constituted a betrayal of a person closest to me. That she admires this girl and sets her as an example for me ... even knowing about socionics such a "set up" was painful for me to accept.
    [* These are classical benefit relations where the beneficiary doesn't feel like the benefactor hears her: IEI's creative function falls on ignoring/limiting function of ESI, thus what the IEI tries to convey with creative function simply gets ignored.]

    Frost Mirriam (IEI): My mom is also Dreiser - and this is brutal. We can co-exist normally only if we're separated by X number of kilometers. When we live together we quarrel every day. She irritates me by her grounded, sarcastic rationalism, that sometimes she drives to the point of absurdity. Her attempts to pressure me drive me mad. She also regularly reads me morals, says that I am lazy, that I don't do anything - by this she tries to give me "a kick", to somehow stimulate me to frantic activity. Compares me to my peers who have been more successful, in her opinion. If something is forbidden, she starts to carefully explain why it is so, and usually it boils down to "because our state of things is very bad, and doing anything is irrational", instead of just saying "no" in a way that I would have no further questions. If I'm going somewhere, every 5 minutes I am told how much time is left and hurried. In general, constant hurrying - is the favorite theme of both my ESI friend and my ESI mother. They also have a similar and very specific sense of humor.

    Naivety (IEI): Ok, so I want to cook something or do something useful around the house. I ask my ESI mother a concrete question and instead of receiving a concrete answer I get half an hour long lecture where the total useful information for me is "I don't know, I use ingredients by the eye". After this I start inquiring about approximate portions and common methods. While I'm trying to get the answer that I need, my nerves get seriously tested, and I feel that I should run away, somewhere deep into the forest, before all of this ends with me breaking into hysterics. And then I get criticized that I didn't do something well or that I took too long. For conversation there are two topics: education and faults of the younger generation. Dreisers also don't listen! They ask something then do things their own way. Then why ask in the first place? One day I come back from a trip, mom asks me whether to prepare something for me, I say no thanks I'll cook something myself, bought some products along the way. Then I go to unpack my bags and hear some sounds in the kitchen. I look and there is my mother heating the milk that was saving for the omelette. This is what I don't understand, why do something when you were being told that it's not needed? Ok, so she is trying to help me. Everything is good and fine. Only within half an hour I hear a lecture from her about how I am lazy, how I can't plan anything such that she always has to help me and do things for me.* Sorry for the morning outcry!

    gala83 (IEI): My mom is also Dreiser - I wouldn't wish this upon anyone! Dreiser will do everything for the good of her children: will make decisions for them, give them the magical "kick in the behind", can even materially provide for them at the beginning - just do as you're being told, go to school, get a degree in finance, every day clean and organize your home, lead a budget, be a rational type, be an LSE, be anyone but yourself. Everything good that there is in the IEI the ESI simply doesn't notice. She attempts to remake the IEI's personality, to turn the IEI inside out, meanwhile my LSE sister would be set as an example for how I should be like. Now I work in an office. I feel unhappy, inhibited and suppressed, my life feels empty. The expression on my face most of the time is unemotional, serious, focused. I tried talking with my mother, telling her that I'm not living my life - her reply was: "Everyone lives this way, nothing happens to them." Then once again I've seen that my own mother is not my friend but an enemy. She thinks that I am rude, that I have a poor character, that I'm too callous and insensitive. But she cannot imagine how year after year I had to break myself to fit into her ideal image of a daughter. It's very difficult to not be yourself, to have to wear a mask day after day. I've taken up painting. She said go ahead, paint, no one is stopping you, but on your free time, as a hobby. When I create something exceptionally beautiful and it is admired and asked for by my friends - and then I feel truly happy!!! But later the Dreiser's program takes over again and things become grey, lifeless, materially shallow, without any deep meaning or purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Oh boy, I am the last person to ask about ESI's I know only one girl irl who I'm sure is an ESI and we're nothing more but acquaintances. So, my opinions on her... She's very pleasent and polite, always on her best behaviour in company, very well behaved, gracious, great posture, reserved, quiet, but at the same time self-confident. She's always polite with everybody, which is nice, as she could be very arrogant considering she looks like a supermodel.

    But...she's not really a person I would have as a close friend. Reasons: she seems very dull, like she read some manual how a perfect girl should be and is now following every step. She's a straight A student at a medical school, goes jogging every day for an hour and rock-climbing at weekends (she doesn't enjoy climbing but it's whats popular with her boyfriend and his friends), is always extremely polished , but at the same time her looks is understated and natural, although she spends thousands euros on hairdressers, body treatments, facial yoga, lasers... you get the idea. She has the air of old money. And ofc she's engaged to a super rich guy who owns a bunch of hotels too. Oh, and not to forget, she's also a great cook and bakes her guy cookies weekly, because that's what wifes do. She's basically a superwoman or some kind of Stepford wife. She's also planning to get pregnant in a year, not because she particularly wants a baby, but because she wants to be a young and hip mom (her words, not mine).

    All of this is kinda annoying in itself, but it's not the reason I wouldn't be her close friend. She's just so dull and doesn't have anything interesting or unique to say. All she talks about is Pilates, her studies and furniture. She's always boring in group of people, because she just sits stiffly and wants to have serious one-on-one conversations. She never says anything funny and you always feel like you have to behave properly around her.

    As to our relationship....on one hand I feel like she's kinda better than me, like I'm a mess compared to her, failed at life But on the other hand, I also think...god I'm awesome compared to this bore We're both friendly and neutral to each other, but very distant at the same time, a bit aloof. I'm not seeing any sort of beneficience going on. NOT my type of person, but I'm sure she feels the same.

    So...I'm very sure this girl is an ESI, but I'm really confused, as ESI's on this board seem really cool and interesting to me and I agree with them on most things I'm also confused as to what @lungs said how she's similar to one girl and would act similarly with her group of friends. Cause the girl I know is very uptight -you will never hear a raunchy thing coming out of her mouth. So, someone please enlighten me: Is this ESI particularly boring and proper, am I mistyping her, do ESI's differ a lot one from another or what is going on. I would really like to know more irl so I could compare, but they just don't seem to run in my circles.
    I typedbyou by watching you "warm up to" the ESI on the forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    I'm raunchy and blurt things out all the time. Also kind of moody.


    how the hell does she afford all those treatments and is in medical school? (what's the point of going to med school if you just want to be a stay at home mom after?)..(gross).
    Yeah, I thought so. That's the way I like it

    Oh, her family and boyfriend are axtremely rich. Med school is for status porpuses.

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    talking about how organized and boring you are and how other people are slackers sounds like a very stupid way to look good in front of a girl you like geez
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    Nataly (IEI): I've been through these relations, married to an ESI man for 10 years. These relations were difficult for me for several reasons:
    1) Total control over my actions and some minor things. For example, coming back from work 20 minutes late was met with stern "onslaught" to the point that it was impossible for me to stop by a cafe with a friend after work.
    2) All my friends were considered to be almost like enemies - he needed all of my efforts, so what right did I have to get distracted away from him by my friends? As a result I started losing my friendships.
    3) Harsh pressuring on the topics of: "Why so proud amidst your poverty" or "Why are you learning a foreign language? Instead of occupying with this nonsense you should come up with something that could actually earn some money."
    4) In respect to his friends: "You are not a person of our circle, thus don't try to delve into matters that don't concern you." And in general: "I don't trust you."
    5) His policy regarding our relationship: "How about you do your thing, and I'll do mine. "Us" is only for bed."
    6) If I had some problems and referred to him for help and moral support, this would be his response: "First of all understand that these are your problems, so don't you dare to shout and cry in front of me, because I may not have patience with your hysterics and will "forcefully" put an end to them. When you have calmed down, I will tell you how you should behave to not get yourself into such stupid situations in the future."
    Needless to say, after 10 years of such treatment my self-esteem has dropped to nothing. If you are ready to spend your life discussing your emotions without any emotion, if you consider that the closeness and intimacy of your relationships with your husband should be strictly regulated and "dosed", if you consider that everything you do should earn money or at least bring some material output, then this is the relationship for you. What's interesting is that as many new methods and technologies as the IEI offers to the ESI, the ESI doesn't appreciate them and doesn't accept advice coming from such a hapless, in his or her eyes, person. The ESI wants you to work through all these technologies and methods yourself.
    i would have roundly told this dude to fuck off.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    i would have roundly told this dude to fuck off.
    Who puts up with shit like this??!! I have a hard time feeling sorry for people like this.

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    .
    Last edited by lump; 06-17-2014 at 01:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Who puts up with shit like this??!!
    Too many people, unfortunately.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    So at what point should I expect my iei to go batshit crazy and start pushing me away? Three months? Six months? Any warning signs? This stupid forum freaks me out, lol. He seems so sweet and sane so far. He's also in his thirties, how old are these ieis you speak of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    He seems so sweet and sane so far.
    We always do No, look, it's not that dramatic, you just need a strong personality to handle IEI. If you're strong-willed, assertive and don't put up with crap (and you seem exactly like that), there shouldn't be any problems. When the guys are like that I'm perfectly capable of having a normal relationship. Besides, if the guy is in his 30's I'm sure he matured at least some.

    If you see him trying to push-pull you just call him on it and he will respect you for it. And never look desperate, but you don't look like the type.

    And I'm sure there's some drama free IEI's out there, I just thing that "victims" in general need some tough love from time to time, not just nicey-nice predictability.

    And don't worry too much, if it feels right, than it most likely is.

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    So at what point should I expect my iei to go batshit crazy and start pushing me away? Three months? Six months? Any warning signs?
    Um. Never! But from a former relationship with an IEI, I can confirm it took 1 whole year!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    So at what point should I expect my iei to go batshit crazy and start pushing me away? Three months? Six months? Any warning signs? This stupid forum freaks me out, lol. He seems so sweet and sane so far. He's also in his thirties, how old are these ieis you speak of?
    I think you are ok. He would have done it from the beginning to be conquered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Martrix View Post
    Um. Never! But from a former relationship with an IEI, I can confirm it took 1 whole year!
    More please

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    More please


    I can tell you that at the breakup (it was a very kind but abrupt message, I received), all I could do was laugh hysterically!

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