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Thread: Fe vs Fi (once again)

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    Default Fe vs Fi (once again)

    Here is a chapter from socionics.us blog where Fe vs Fi differences in group behavior is discussed:
    http://www.socionics.us/blog/12_06.shtml#1

    What do you think of it? A good description? Do you think it is more concerned about certain Quadras e.g. Alpha and Delta or is it good for more generic Fe vs Fi identification? Especially can you see differences between Alpha and Beta Fe or Gamma and Delta Fi in light of this description?

    Here is the most important part for those who don't wish to follow the link:

    Introverted ethics on the group level
    In groups with free circulation of introverted ethics, group members freely share their personal sentiments (personal likes and dislikes, personally meaningful experiences, etc.) and gravitate towards others who express similar sentiments. This results in the group frequently breaking up into small groups of 2-3 (more rarely 4) people that redissolve back into the greater group as soon as the small group discussion has taken its due course and reached a conclusion. Groups form and reform in different combinations again and again according to personal sentiment. People rarely laugh loudly, because that would unintentionally involve people from other small groups.

    Extraverted ethics on the group level
    In groups with free circulation of extraverted ethics, participants rarely share their personal sentiments, but focus instead on externally visible expression such as telling funny stories, making loud comments, and trying to say everything in an emotionally expressive and creative manner. There is usually just one large group that people can join and leave as they see fit, and the group has the tendency to grow ever larger and include more and more people in its orbit by moving tables together, sharing food and drinks, and directing group attention at people hanging around the edges who might be feeling left out. Often these group sessions can last for hours and hours until the last diehards finally go to bed, thoroughly exhausted.
    Based on this I would imho be clearly on the Fi side. I was wondering how trustworthy this conclusion is especially regarding Betas. Most of the Fe description fits me badly. Most of the Fi description fit me well. There were some anomalies of course like the "People rarely laugh loudly, because that would unintentionally involve people from other small groups" which I don't really pay attention to. I laugh if I feel like it and not if I don't. I don't know if I consider much whether it attracts other groups attention.

    Then one thing that I somewhat liked about the Fe group description is the idea that no one is left out (unless they want to). I would hate it if someone would be forcefully pushed out of a "small group" against their will (unless there is a good reason to do so of course). If someone needs to be excluded from some small group I prefer it done with style and in good spirit and not like "YOU DON'T BELONG HERE WITH US" kind of style. What I hate even more is if someone tries to include me into a group where I don't want to be included though.

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    Uhm. Different situations different shit. I like them both but my laughter is too loud for Deltas. I feel like a child in a group of old weenies. Some cool kind of ISTps and ENFps are an execption.
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    The described behavioral aspects of Fe I prefer very much in a group setting, but the size-of-groups has just as much to do with introversion vs. extroversion as it does Fi vs. Fe. Large groups are only comfortable if I am familiar with everybody.

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    I absolutely loveee the Fe description. It's just so appealing to me, and definitely what I strive for in group interaction. Fi seems extremely cold to me for some reason ... it doesn't seem fun. No emotional expression, no loudness.


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    The main reason why I talk so quietly is because I don't want other people to hear what I'm saying, only those that I am aiming the conversation at. Fi?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KSpin
    The main reason why I talk so quietly is because I don't want other people to hear what I'm saying, only those that I am aiming the conversation at. Fi?
    I do that as much as possible.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Re: Fe vs Fi (once again)

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Introverted ethics on the group level
    In groups with free circulation of introverted ethics, group members freely share their personal sentiments (personal likes and dislikes, personally meaningful experiences, etc.) and gravitate towards others who express similar sentiments. This results in the group frequently breaking up into small groups of 2-3 (more rarely 4) people that redissolve back into the greater group as soon as the small group discussion has taken its due course and reached a conclusion. Groups form and reform in different combinations again and again according to personal sentiment. People rarely laugh loudly, because that would unintentionally involve people from other small groups.

    Extraverted ethics on the group level
    In groups with free circulation of extraverted ethics, participants rarely share their personal sentiments, but focus instead on externally visible expression such as telling funny stories, making loud comments, and trying to say everything in an emotionally expressive and creative manner. There is usually just one large group that people can join and leave as they see fit, and the group has the tendency to grow ever larger and include more and more people in its orbit by moving tables together, sharing food and drinks, and directing [s:02cfe1cabc]group[/s:02cfe1cabc] personal attention at people hanging around the edges who might be feeling left out. Often these group sessions can last for hours and hours until the last diehards finally go to bed, thoroughly exhausted.
    I hadn't wanted to respond because I don't like groups larger than 3 or 4 (unless I'm dancing).

    When I go out dancing, it's usually just me and one friend. I've tried two other friends, but those don't work so well. Often when I've gone out dancing by myself or with a friend I wind up dragging up to the dance floor those people who are bouncing in their seats looking around for someone to ask them to dance, or those who look like they'd like to dance, that they came to have fun, but aren't comfortable asking people. Usually after I get them on the floor a few times, they've finally begun asking people (which could either say good things about me...or that they were trying to avoid me..hehehe). Sometimes I bring them into dancing with me and my friend, sometimes just me. I dont' care if they are male or female, we're just here to have fun. I've had a couple of bands deliberately invite me to some of their shows because of the fact that I usually wind up getting the people they had invited, but didn't have partners for, up there dancing. I've made a number of friends this way too. However, I can't do this if I'm not feeling good vibes from the band.
    I love dancing and don't mind dancing by myself if I have to.

    I'm just much more comfortable with one or two other people, if it's four then I feel forced to pair off and i don't like feeling forced into anything. Couples dating was never an interest of mine (me, my partner, and another couple). Richard doesn't mind hanging out like that, but I just feel..."when is this going to be over?" I don't like family gatherings. Richard's family is great, but I wind up just sitting there listening to everyone talk. I've taken to bringing a book or notebook for working on something. I don't want to be rude to them, but I don't particularly want to be there either.

    When my mom comes out to visit, I have no choice but to share my time with her with her husband, my brother, and my daughter. I find myself feeling jealous because I don't get to spend any one on one time with her, meanwhile my brother has the freedom from an immediate family to spend more one on one time with her.

    When my daughter and i go into town and see my brother, i usually feel torn because my daughter wants attention but my brother's pretty much isolated except for when he's hanging out with us on errands and such. (of course i'm also the one driving, having to make the decisions, and trying to make sure i get all my errands done) I like when she asks him a question and he turns to her and talks with her. I like to listen, and feel less stressed during those times.

    When I imagined what it might be like if everyone here was at the london meeting that's coming up, i had images of the majority of people hanging out together in a big room while me and a few smaller groups were in a side or back room. Once in a while someone from the big room would come back, and sometimes someone from this smaller room would go up front. Even though these were smaller groups (about 3-4 people), I still felt uncomfortable and would often go on a walk or up to a balcony of some sort. There one person would come up and we'd chat a bit. Go back down. I'd go back up in a bit and someone else would show up. etc.

    Oh, and it's often the case that when my brother is with us, and we are at a place to eat or such, that his voice will begin getting louder and louder and I'll make a signal moving my hand down to remind him to lower his voice. We've talked a bit about that. He says he kind of finds it annoying. He says he finds himself doing this and getting more and more animated the less I seem to be responding. He says it's like he can't read what I'm thinking or anything and is trying to get me to respond or respond "faster"...[insert some biological jargon here]. And that it seems that the more he does that, the less signals I show. (lol, it seems that i calm down even more to help him calm down when he's acting all "excited" and such...obviously it winds up doing the exact opposite)
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    In Fi-dominated groups I feel noticeably inhibited... as if I'm not comfortable to fully express myself for fear that others are silently criticizing me... when I do express myself I like to do so in a playful manner... in the sense that I'm inviting others to play upon a scene I'm creating... Fi people don't seem to really get it and my playful spirit is drained out... with Fe-oriented people it's like they understand where I'm coming from and play upon my expressions with their own, indeed they take it to the next level thus dissolving my inhibitions (fear of looking like an idiot) and thereby establishing a fun open environment with less rules, regulations, and limitations of behaviour
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii
    In Fi-dominated groups I feel noticeably inhibited... as if I'm not comfortable to fully express myself for fear that others are silently criticizing me... when I do express myself I like to do so in a playful manner... in the sense that I'm inviting others to play upon a scene I'm creating... Fi people don't seem to really get it and my playful spirit is drained out... with Fe-oriented people it's like they understand where I'm coming from and play upon my expressions with their own, indeed they take it to the next level thus dissolving my inhibitions (fear of looking like an idiot) and thereby establishing a fun open environment with less rules, regulations, and limitations of behaviour
    Yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii
    In Fi-dominated groups I feel noticeably inhibited... as if I'm not comfortable to fully express myself for fear that others are silently criticizing me... when I do express myself I like to do so in a playful manner... in the sense that I'm inviting others to play upon a scene I'm creating... Fi people don't seem to really get it and my playful spirit is drained out... with Fe-oriented people it's like they understand where I'm coming from and play upon my expressions with their own, indeed they take it to the next level thus dissolving my inhibitions (fear of looking like an idiot) and thereby establishing a fun open environment with less rules, regulations, and limitations of behaviour
    Argh, that's perfect.


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    For me: Fi > Fe all the way.

    I guess that makes me an ENFp with overactive Te HA by classical socionics standards.

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    I have some questions...

    Question 1:
    You are arranging a wedding. You have three aunts (or cousins or something like that). You regularly interact with all of them but one of them you like more than the others. Because of financial limitations you want to arrange only a small wedding so you can't invite all the three aunts (or cousins). Are you more likely to decide that...

    a) you are not going to invite any of the aunts because it would be "unfair" for those who did not got invited
    b) you invite only the one you like the most and leave the other two out (and don't have an ethical problem with this)

    Question 2:
    You are arranging a wedding. You have three couples as family friends. You interact with these couples both on individual basis as well as on group basis (when you meet them all at once). You only have room for four more people in your quest list and you have to leave someone out. Do you...

    a) leave all three couples out and invite some other four people instead
    b) just leave one of the three couples out and invite two couples even if you can't decide which of them is more distant from you than the others

    Question 3:
    You are in a bar with six friends. You want to go dancing but you think four of the six people are more fun to dance with. Do you...
    a) Ask only the four people you like to dance with to go dancing with you and not ask the two others
    b) Ask all of them to go dancing with you even if you'd perhaps rather leave two of them out but you think it would be unpolite not to ask them too

    Can you separate Fe and Fi people with these questions? Is there difference between Alpha Fe and Beta Fe in these questions? How about Gamma and Delta Fi? Anndelise already talked about dancing in groups even if she is Fi type. How about the other questions?

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    Q1 - Probably b), although I wouldn't say I'm certain on that.
    Q2 - Genuinely undecided, it's hard without ever having been in that situation to know what I would do.
    Q3 - Depends on the situation. If they were all genuine friends (that is, I'd care about keeping them as friends) then it would be option b). And I was going to say a) if they were just casual friends, but thinking about it that would potentially create social awkwardness, which I don't deal with well, so maybe it would be b) just to prevent hostilities. I dunno, it's difficult to tell.

    Apologies if this isn't very helpful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLauritson
    Q1 - Probably b), although I wouldn't say I'm certain on that.
    Q2 - Genuinely undecided, it's hard without ever having been in that situation to know what I would do.
    Q3 - Depends on the situation. If they were all genuine friends (that is, I'd care about keeping them as friends) then it would be option b). And I was going to say a) if they were just casual friends, but thinking about it that would potentially create social awkwardness, which I don't deal with well, so maybe it would be b) just to prevent hostilities. I dunno, it's difficult to tell.

    Apologies if this isn't very helpful.
    It is not quite what I expected from an INTp but it is still very helpful. We'll see if I get any more answers and if there is a pattern there. It might be that this kind of thing is not quite as Fe vs Fi thing as I thought. Or perhaps it is the other way around than I thought.

    My options are most likely:
    Q1: a)
    Q2: a)
    Q3: b)
    even though I'm not quite sure about Q1 and Q2.

    I was hoping that I had finally found my Fe but seeing you having quite similar mind set I'm not sure anymore. Perhaps I found my Fi instead Or perhaps you are INTj, lol.

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    Hmm...I think those answers are more related to something else than Fe vs Fi but I can't pinpoint what.

    How about another question...

    Q4: You are arranging a wedding and you have several good friends in your "closest circle" but you can't decide who is closest and should be your "Best Man". Do you...

    a) Select one of them to be your Best Man without any ethical problems
    b) Select someone else who is not in your "closest circle" so that you avoid the ethical problem of choosing a favourite among your best friends

    This is interesting question actually What functions are in play? I suspect it is not about Fe vs Fi but something else.

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    These questions are not good for Fe or Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I have some questions...

    Question 1:
    You are arranging a wedding. You have three aunts (or cousins or something like that). You regularly interact with all of them but one of them you like more than the others. Because of financial limitations you want to arrange only a small wedding so you can't invite all the three aunts (or cousins). Are you more likely to decide that...

    a) you are not going to invite any of the aunts because it would be "unfair" for those who did not got invited
    b) you invite only the one you like the most and leave the other two out (and don't have an ethical problem with this)
    Fi would be about knowing whether the non-invited aunts would feel neglected or not. The problem is the word "you like one more than the others". What does that mean? Is it clear, recognized by all, that you have a closer connection to one of the aunts (or cousin etc) or is it just your "favorite" among them? Are the other two aware of it, and therefore would understand why the other one was invited? Or not, and they would feel surprised and disappointed? The answer would reflect on my decision. If I thought that the two uninvited ones would feel hurt, I would limit the invitations.


    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Question 2:
    You are arranging a wedding. You have three couples as family friends. You interact with these couples both on individual basis as well as on group basis (when you meet them all at once). You only have room for four more people in your quest list and you have to leave someone out. Do you...

    a) leave all three couples out and invite some other four people instead
    b) just leave one of the three couples out and invite two couples even if you can't decide which of them is more distant from you than the others
    It's the same thing. I may very well be able to decide which of them is more "distant"; the issue would be whether the "left out" couple would accept it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Question 3:
    You are in a bar with six friends. You want to go dancing but you think four of the six people are more fun to dance with. Do you...
    a) Ask only the four people you like to dance with to go dancing with you and not ask the two others
    b) Ask all of them to go dancing with you even if you'd perhaps rather leave two of them out but you think it would be unpolite not to ask them too
    That's perhaps the only question with some relevance, but, still. What does "friends" and "more fun to dance with" means? If they are my friends, real friends, I don't care if they are "more fun to dance with" or to play bridge with or whatever. I am with them because they are my friends. What we do together is totally secondary. So it's not a question of being "polite" or not, if they are my friends I would not care whether they are less "fun".

    Now, if they are not "friends", just some people to hang out with, I would not care about being with them or not, but I would still think it's unpolite to deliberately exclude others from an invitation, especially for something as unconsequential as dancing. So what if some of them are less "fun", again?
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Seriously XoX, I think those are horrible examples/scenarios.
    INTp
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Hmm...I think those answers are more related to something else than Fe vs Fi but I can't pinpoint what.

    How about another question...

    Q4: You are arranging a wedding and you have several good friends in your "closest circle" but you can't decide who is closest and should be your "Best Man". Do you...

    a) Select one of them to be your Best Man without any ethical problems
    b) Select someone else who is not in your "closest circle" so that you avoid the ethical problem of choosing a favourite among your best friends

    This is interesting question actually What functions are in play? I suspect it is not about Fe vs Fi but something else.
    (b) would be an absurd option IMO. Any reasonable person, I think, knows that you'd choose a close friend as best man. It may not be easy to choose but there are always some criteria to use (length of the friendship, or whatever). Or you just choose the one you think should be your best man and that's it. The "unchosen", in that situation, will understand, if they are true friends.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Seriously XoX, I think those are horrible examples/scenarios.
    Yes. That's because he does not really understand what Fe and Fi are about.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Yeah.

    XoX, there has to be some basic understanding before hypothetical survey questions will get you anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Seriously XoX, I think those are horrible examples/scenarios.
    Yes. That's because he does not really understand what Fe and Fi are about.
    I'm asking the questions in order to find out what Fe and Fi are really about and not trying to show how well I understand them.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Yeah.

    XoX, there has to be some basic understanding before hypothetical survey questions will get you anywhere.
    They are not actually hypothetical which was one of the points behind them . They are a bit adapted examples from real life situations where I have disagreed with some people's behavior and I figured that perhaps the disagreement was about Fi vs Fe difference. Apparently it wasn't. I had Rick's examples of Fi vs Fe group behavior in mind and I tried to find real life examples of how "exclusive use of Fi" might have annoyed me. I'm trying to figure out how my suggested Fe:ness might have manifested IRL in the past but so far I haven't been able to recall any examples which would show I'm Fe>Fi.

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    You're setting up a dinner party and there are more people than could fit at your dining room table. Do you:

    a) no matter what it takes, come up with a way for everyone to sit together in one place. If you can't do that, you'd rather just have the dinner party somewhere else or not have one at all, or invite fewer people so everyone fits.

    or

    b) set up a buffet and allow people to sit and eat in separate little groups, even if they're in different rooms.

    That's the best I can come up with. Although some Fi people I know do really try to get everyone at one table (especially creative Fi people) it seems like it isn't as big a deal. People who are very Fe - like my inlaws - would just not invite as many people, or would have the dinner at a restaurant, or would have two or three ill-fitting tables next to each other and move all the other furniture into another room to make it fit, or something like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I have some questions...

    Question 1:
    You are arranging a wedding. You have three aunts (or cousins or something like that). You regularly interact with all of them but one of them you like more than the others. Because of financial limitations you want to arrange only a small wedding so you can't invite all the three aunts (or cousins). Are you more likely to decide that...

    a) you are not going to invite any of the aunts because it would be "unfair" for those who did not got invited
    b) you invite only the one you like the most and leave the other two out (and don't have an ethical problem with this)
    Definitely a) and I would explain them the situation. If after the explanation they are like - ok you can invite at least one of us! Then I'd invite one. But a) anyway.

    Question 2:
    You are arranging a wedding. You have three couples as family friends. You interact with these couples both on individual basis as well as on group basis (when you meet them all at once). You only have room for four more people in your quest list and you have to leave someone out. Do you...

    a) leave all three couples out and invite some other four people instead
    b) just leave one of the three couples out and invite two couples even if you can't decide which of them is more distant from you than the others
    b) definitely.

    Question 3:
    You are in a bar with six friends. You want to go dancing but you think four of the six people are more fun to dance with. Do you...
    a) Ask only the four people you like to dance with to go dancing with you and not ask the two others
    b) Ask all of them to go dancing with you even if you'd perhaps rather leave two of them out but you think it would be unpolite not to ask them too

    Can you separate Fe and Fi people with these questions? Is there difference between Alpha Fe and Beta Fe in these questions? How about Gamma and Delta Fi? Anndelise already talked about dancing in groups even if she is Fi type. How about the other questions?
    b), basically. Unless I knew that the two people actually DISLIKE dancing.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    so far I haven't been able to recall any examples which would show I'm Fe>Fi.
    Then you don't understand what the people who say that are talking about. There was plenty on that (and no, not only by me) in your type thread.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    How Fi vs Fe feels to me - people talk about themselves and their feelings and their experience. They can be expressive and emotional to describe their emotions better, but they talk strictly from their personal point of view. In a group, they still talk in the same way as if they were having a one-on-one conversation. The way they tell their personal story doesn't change much. More people are listening, but the story and the the way the story is told are the same. It's the individual approach and people usually describe it as more personal, but it has a downside - Fi-people treat others the same in a group and in one-on-one conversation. They can say personal things in a group as if it was everyones' business to know. They can criticise and mock as if there was no group.

    people talk with the group. people talk from their personal core to an undefined "someone" (as if they were having a one-on-one with that "someone"), but people talk from an undefined "core" to the group. The downside is that people can't talk about just anything. The topics have to appeal to the group. It is condemnable to talk about something boring. People were good to you and accepted you in that group, so it's not nice to take advantage of that and make them suffer with some boring story that no one really wants to hear. Because people will respect "the code" and they won't just tell you, "shut up, it's boring". They wouldn't want to hurt you in front of the group. They distinguish between a group situation and a personal situation and different rules apply. If you tell a boring story, they'll forgive you and ignore it, if you often tell boring stories then your friend should tell you in a personal situation that your stories are boring and you might consider to stop telling them to the group. People will be respected in a group and criticism is for personal situations.


    From real life. A group consisting of ENFj, ENFp, INTj, INTp. ENFp tells about her personal experiences and about her plan to find a new job. Describes how the current job makes her feel, what's wrong with it, what she thinks she would like, etc. The INTp gives random suggestions and thoughts about what she has to keep in mind when looking for a job. ENFj (me) tries to find a plan how she'd ensure that her CV is noticed and connects the issue with a general rule, "because people who look for an employee...". The INTj, who has been quiet the whole conversation "wakes up" and looks for eye-contact with the ENFj and then starts telling a story of his experiences from years ago. The ENFp shhh' the INTj saying that no one wants to hear the story...
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    You're setting up a dinner party and there are more people than could fit at your dining room table. Do you:

    a) no matter what it takes, come up with a way for everyone to sit together in one place. If you can't do that, you'd rather just have the dinner party somewhere else or not have one at all, or invite fewer people so everyone fits.

    or

    b) set up a buffet and allow people to sit and eat in separate little groups, even if they're in different rooms.

    That's the best I can come up with. Although some Fi people I know do really try to get everyone at one table (especially creative Fi people) it seems like it isn't as big a deal. People who are very Fe - like my inlaws - would just not invite as many people, or would have the dinner at a restaurant, or would have two or three ill-fitting tables next to each other and move all the other furniture into another room to make it fit, or something like that.
    I think this is good, but perhaps it's simpler to ask how much you care about the people separating in little groups the first place.

    Question: you organize a dinner party for 20 of your close friends. Since you don't have a large enough table, you set up a buffet table for people to help themselves and eat standing, or sitting, as they prefer.

    Soon, they spontaneously split into several small groups of 3-4 people each, and do not rotate among them very much.

    Do you:

    1) Join one of the groups yourself, moving between them from time to time, trying to talk to as many guests as possible on an individual basis, happy to see that everyone is having a good time

    2) Feel the need to organize something for everyone to do as a group, like a game, or even dancing - otherwise you feel that something's not right and that the people must be bored
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    @Kristiina: I loved the way you explained and , but I'm not sure that the "real case" it's a good example, even a type needs to be quite distraught to tell someone to shut up in a group.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    @Kristiina: I loved the way you explained and , but I'm not sure that the "real case" it's a good example, even a type needs to be quite distraught to tell someone to shut up in a group.
    hehe... well... the ENFp and the INTj are married. :wink:
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
    New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/

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