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    Default Expat

    INFj.

    I buy the Te emphasis on facts, etc., but he seems too emotionally involved sometimes to be ENTj. Plus, ENTjs are usually more confrontational. My second guess would be ENFp (the calmer, more mature kind). His writing bears a strong resemblance to Rick's.

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    Despite popular belief, I don't think entjs are usually that controversial or anything.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Default Re: Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    INFj.

    I buy the Te emphasis on facts, etc., but he seems too emotionally involved sometimes to be ENTj. Plus, ENTjs are usually more confrontational. My second guess would be ENFp (the calmer, more mature kind). His writing bears a strong resemblance to Rick's.
    that makes no sense whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    INFj.

    I buy the Te emphasis on facts, etc., but he seems too emotionally involved sometimes to be ENTj. Plus, ENTjs are usually more confrontational. My second guess would be ENFp (the calmer, more mature kind). His writing bears a strong resemblance to Rick's.
    Definitely not INFj. It sounds as if you're suggesting INFj based on theoretical grounds rather than from knowing INFjs.

    Expat seems quite confrontational to those who confront him.

    You're right though...He gets very emotionally involved, way more than I'd expect from an NT. In that way, he reminds me of Sergei Ganin somehow. However, I suspect it's not type related; that is, it may be function related, but not something by which one could predict type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Despite popular belief, I don't think entjs are usually that controversial or anything.
    It depends. But Expat is unusually calm, I'm sure you've noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    INFj.

    I buy the Te emphasis on facts, etc., but he seems too emotionally involved sometimes to be ENTj. Plus, ENTjs are usually more confrontational. My second guess would be ENFp (the calmer, more mature kind). His writing bears a strong resemblance to Rick's.
    that makes no sense whatsoever.
    Thank you for that useful comment.

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    Actually, the more I think of it, the more I think that a tendency to seem too emotionally involved is really a T thing. I've only seen that in T types.

    It has to do with the regulation of emotions...determining what to get emotional about, why, and in what way, and how this will impact relationships between people.

    An INFj wouldn't get so emotionally involved actually. The problem is seeing "being emotional" as "being F." They're not the same thing.

    Comments (above) like "that makes no sense whatsoever" give another demonstration; F people (or T people who have developed their F side) wouldn't be as inclined to say it that way.

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    you're yellowly welcome.

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Oh hush, he's obviously INFp. End of discussion.



    i disagree with the INFj/ENFp hypothesis. it seems hard for me to imagine him as anything but a ego type.

    I buy the Te emphasis on facts, etc., but he seems too emotionally involved sometimes to be ENTj.
    isn't this sort of a consequence of having a role function? i remember previous arguments against Kim's ENFp-ness centered around her being "aggressive." (?)

    Plus, ENTjs are usually more confrontational.
    more confrontational in what sense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Oh hush, he's obviously INFp. End of discussion.



    @Jonathan: if anyone is being overly concerned with the theory, it is you. I merely pointed out an observation. And obviously there is no point in trying to convince you that I know plenty of INFjs IRL (though I do).

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Oh hush, he's obviously INFp. End of discussion.



    i disagree with the INFj/ENFp hypothesis. it seems hard for me to imagine him as anything but a ego type.

    I buy the Te emphasis on facts, etc., but he seems too emotionally involved sometimes to be ENTj.
    isn't this sort of a consequence of having a role function?
    I think of Fe Role as being more exaggerated, in the open. Which is not the case at all with Expat (duh). He only gets involved when he feels that someone incorrectly believes they have a superior understanding of Socionics, etc. (like Rmcnew) - good evidence for Ti Role, or Ti Super-ego at least.

    Plus, ENTjs are usually more confrontational.
    more confrontational in what sense?
    I suppose I should have said "controversial" - that fits better. As in Expat does not flagrantly uphold his particular political views in the annoying way that ENTjs normally do.

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    This is the first topic all day - in a couple of days, actually - that's made me giggle aloud. One of those irrepressible kinds that just pushes its way up through one's normal exterior calm and keeps one's eyes twinkling for some time after. The same type of giggle that perhaps accompanies bouncers in ballet. Or flying pigs. Or perhaps blue cheese posing as an engineer. Or some other non-sequitur, highly improbable (yet fairly harmless) spectacle.

    I think I shall have to bookmark this topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    isn't this sort of a consequence of having a role function?
    I think of Fe Role as being more exaggerated, in the open. Which is not the case at all with Expat (duh). He only gets involved when he feels that someone incorrectly believes they have a superior understanding of Socionics, etc. (like Rmcnew) - good evidence for Ti Role, or Ti Super-ego at least.

    Plus, ENTjs are usually more confrontational.
    more confrontational in what sense?
    I suppose I should have said "controversial" - that fits better. As in Expat does not flagrantly uphold his particular political views in the annoying way that ENTjs normally do.

    so why not just suggest "INTp"? that would be a more reasonable way to justify introversion, IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    isn't this sort of a consequence of having a role function?
    I think of Fe Role as being more exaggerated, in the open. Which is not the case at all with Expat (duh). He only gets involved when he feels that someone incorrectly believes they have a superior understanding of Socionics, etc. (like Rmcnew) - good evidence for Ti Role, or Ti Super-ego at least.

    Plus, ENTjs are usually more confrontational.
    more confrontational in what sense?
    I suppose I should have said "controversial" - that fits better. As in Expat does not flagrantly uphold his particular political views in the annoying way that ENTjs normally do.

    so why not just suggest "INTp"? that would be a more reasonable way to justify introversion, IMO.
    That was not meant as evidence for introversion, though I suppose it could be. It rather indicates Reasonable > Resolute.





    [spoil:f0c98a2d8f] Sorry implied...[/spoil:f0c98a2d8f]





    [spoil:f0c98a2d8f]In other words,

    APRIL FOOLS![/spoil:f0c98a2d8f]

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    [spoil:4f51e19440] [/spoil:4f51e19440]
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    It depends. But Expat is unusually calm, I'm sure you've noticed.
    You want I should get him riled up for you? :wink:

    Sure Expat's presense here does come off as calm for the most part but I wouldn't call him unusually calm. He's quite capable of displaying more... ummm... excitable states. I have this urge to go round up some posts to make a "Best of Expat Freaks Out!" collection for you but I don't want to taint my current internal representation of him (I actually got a smilie out of him the other day ) He's for sure got buttons... I've stumbled across a few in my day. Sometimes you've got to push them a couple of times before they'll go click! (perfectly natural in old machinery ) but once they do... oh daddy!... it's time to duck behind the bar with a bottle of whiskey and hope nobody comes flying over the counter

    I'm kidding of course with that last part. An Expat freakout measured on say, the FDG scale, bearly makes the needle twitch. But when you measure it on the Expat scale you'll see that the needle is capable of a fair range of movement.

    something to keep in mind.... as I pointed out with my bad joke from above, Expat is older. This unusual calmness is in many instances probably simple maturity. I very much doubt that a 44 ( or something around there) year old stable engineer sees much point in allowing himself to get overly heated up over an internet forum which is populated, for the large part, by teen to thirty year olds. What would be the point?

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    I see what you're saying, Bionicgoat, but most of the ENTjs I know are >40 too, so that's not saying much.

    [spoil:6ea27e3882]Hmm, maybe I should read those spoilers a little more carefully. :wink: [/spoil:6ea27e3882]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    An Expat freakout measured on say, the FDG scale, bearly makes the needle twitch.
    looooool! But it's fun to freak out
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I did see the April Fool's day (so late?) disclaimer, but, anyway --

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    His writing bears a strong resemblance to Rick's.
    I'll take that as a compliment, since I greatly admire Rick's writing. Ironically, when Rick first started posting, some people suggested he was an ENTj.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    He only gets involved when he feels that someone incorrectly believes they have a superior understanding of Socionics, etc. (like Rmcnew) - good evidence for Ti Role, or Ti Super-ego at least.
    No, I get involved - "emotionally" or not - when someone states something that I think is blatantly incorrect and makes no sense. That's a Te ego thing. Or when blatantly unethical acts are at play, or when my own ethical principles are questioned. Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    something to keep in mind.... as I pointed out with my bad joke from above, Expat is older. This unusual calmness is in many instances probably simple maturity. I very much doubt that a 44 ( or something around there) year old stable engineer sees much point in allowing himself to get overly heated up over an internet forum which is populated, for the large part, by teen to thirty year olds. What would be the point?
    I really, really think that you all give this age thing waaaay too much weight.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    It sounds as if you're suggesting INFj based on theoretical grounds rather than from knowing INFjs.
    And then we get to the old discussion -- how would he know that those INFjs he "knows" are real INFjs? The theory has to come into use at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Expat seems quite confrontational to those who confront him.

    You're right though...He gets very emotionally involved, way more than I'd expect from an NT. In that way, he reminds me of Sergei Ganin somehow. However, I suspect it's not type related; that is, it may be function related, but not something by which one could predict type.
    What you see as "emotionally involved" I see as mark of the EJ temperament.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I did see the April Fool's day (so late?) disclaimer, but, anyway --

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    His writing bears a strong resemblance to Rick's.
    I'll take that as a compliment, since I greatly admire Rick's writing. Ironically, when Rick first started posting, some people suggested he was an ENTj.
    That was the only really serious part of what I said. Pay no attention to the rest.

    I would say Rick tries very hard to put a lot of Te in his writing, hence the resemblance. Only recently has he given any kind of impression to me of an ethical type, much less Ne-dominant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I would say Rick tries very hard to put a lot of Te in his writing, hence the resemblance. Only recently has he given any kind of impression to me of an ethical type, much less Ne-dominant.
    Yeah, when he "relaxes" his ENFp-ness becomes more evident.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    something to keep in mind.... as I pointed out with my bad joke from above, Expat is older. This unusual calmness is in many instances probably simple maturity. I very much doubt that a 44 ( or something around there) year old stable engineer sees much point in allowing himself to get overly heated up over an internet forum which is populated, for the large part, by teen to thirty year olds. What would be the point?
    I really, really think that you all give this age thing waaaay too much weight.


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    Default Re: Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Expat seems quite confrontational to those who confront him.

    You're right though...He gets very emotionally involved, way more than I'd expect from an NT. In that way, he reminds me of Sergei Ganin somehow. However, I suspect it's not type related; that is, it may be function related, but not something by which one could predict type.
    What you see as "emotionally involved" I see as mark of the EJ temperament.
    Correct. Everything in Expat's behaviour is perfectly consistent with being an ENTj. There is no indication that he should more likely be some other type. The reasons behind his aggressiveness and "emotionality" in some situations are those he pointed out himself, and this kind of behaviour is very well described in Enneagram type 8s if you are not satisfied with the socionic LIE descriptions. So, read some of those Enneagram 8 descriptions if you want to know more about ENTjs, their typical behaviours and attitudes. Expat is a very clear example of an ENTj.

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    @Bionicgoat

    Come on, you call that a "high-scale freakout"? Then I must really be like a zombie - or, as some prefer it, robot - most of the time.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    @Bionicgoat

    Come on, you call that a "high-scale freakout"? Then I must really be like a zombie - or, as some prefer it, robot - most of the time.
    I'll get maintenance in to recalibrate it :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    @Bionicgoat

    Come on, you call that a "high-scale freakout"? Then I must really be like a zombie - or, as some prefer it, robot - most of the time.
    I'll get maintenance in to recalibrate it :wink:
    Hey now it's my turn so that we can make the comparison! What do you think??
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    @Bionicgoat

    Come on, you call that a "high-scale freakout"? Then I must really be like a zombie - or, as some prefer it, robot - most of the time.
    I'll get maintenance in to recalibrate it :wink:
    Hey now it's my turn so that we can make the comparison! What do you think??
    For some reason it is more natural for me to "absorb" your freakouts than e.g. Expat's. Perhaps because you have freaked out about me only on limited scale and not done a "full scale freakout" which you have done with some other people. I can't compare you two properly in the freakout scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    @Bionicgoat

    Come on, you call that a "high-scale freakout"? Then I must really be like a zombie - or, as some prefer it, robot - most of the time.
    I'll get maintenance in to recalibrate it :wink:
    Hey now it's my turn so that we can make the comparison! What do you think??
    For some reason it is more natural for me to "absorb" your freakouts than e.g. Expat's. Perhaps because you have freaked out about me only on limited scale and not done a "full scale freakout" which you have done with some other people. I can't compare you two properly in the freakout scale.
    I think I can. There is at least a tiny, tiny, tiny little difference between them ...

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    The only type other than ENTj I could see for Expat is ESTj.

    LOL @ Bionicgoat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    The only type other than ENTj I could see for Expat is ESTj.
    Correct. That's the only other type that makes some sense, but everything suggests that he is an ENTj, and he believes that he is an ENTj too, so why should we question his type? There is no ground for doubt here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    The only type other than ENTj I could see for Expat is ESTj.
    Correct. That's the only other type that makes some sense, but everything suggests that he is an ENTj, and he believes that he is an ENTj too, so why should we question his type? There is no ground for doubt here.
    Wow. I actually agree with this.
    ENTj makes sense for Expat. What was the thread for again??
    INTp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    The only type other than ENTj I could see for Expat is ESTj.
    Correct. That's the only other type that makes some sense, but everything suggests that he is an ENTj, and he believes that he is an ENTj too, so why should we question his type? There is no ground for doubt here.
    Anyone and everyone here could have an incorrect idea of his/her type. There is ground for doubt everywhere because there is always the potential that he or we could be wrong and something else could be true. But I do think he's more likely ENTj than ESTj.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Anyone and everyone here could have an incorrect idea of his/her type. There is ground for doubt everywhere because there is always the potential that he or we could be wrong and something else could be true. But I do think he's more likely ENTj than ESTj.
    Just because anything might turn out to be false, you still need to have grounds for doubt. You cannot just doubt anything you want just because you feel like it. You have to have reasons for doubting something. If we don't have any legitimate reason to doubt something, we should not doubt it. For the same reason, if we don't have any legitimate reason to believe something to be true, we should not believe in it. But not believing in something is not the same thing as doubting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Just because anything might turn out to be false, you still need to have grounds for doubt. You cannot just doubt anything you want just because you feel like it.
    Sure I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    You have to have reasons for doubting something. If we don't have any legitimate reason to doubt something, we should not doubt it.
    And you think you're the one to decide what's a legitimate reason? LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    But not believing in something is not the same thing as doubting it.
    Huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    The only type other than ENTj I could see for Expat is ESTj.
    Arguments in favor of ESTj hypothesis:

    - a disproportionate high number of INFjs (according to my own typing, of course) among my friends - I just had dinner last night with a INFj-INFj couple; my closest male friend is an INFj
    - generally no problem with Delta, as a quadra or as individuals
    - some individuals of Beta quadra who think I "hate" them, at least one INFp who thinks so
    - I generally get along better with ESFjs (super-ego) than ENFjs (look-alike)

    Problems with ESTj hypothesis:

    - I really can't see a Si>Ni preference, unless I have no idea of what I am talking about
    - Assuming I have identified them correctly, INTps are my mirrors and ISTps my supervisors, not vice-versa
    - in romantic and work relationships, it definitely works better with ISFjs than with INFjs
    - I am a Victim, not Caregiver, I, uh, "need" an Aggressor, rather than an Infantile
    - Identifying more with Gamma than with Delta generally

    But the main reason is the Si>Ni thing that really doesn't make sense as far as I understand those functions.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Just because anything might turn out to be false, you still need to have grounds for doubt. You cannot just doubt anything you want just because you feel like it.
    Sure I can.
    Yes, you can. But you shouldn't. Because there is no reason for you to do it. If you doubt something without having any reason for doing it, your doubt turns into some sort of "game", a playing with words that has no practical consequences. Anyone can do that of course, but no one else would then have any reason to take your "doubt" seriously, since it is no real doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    You have to have reasons for doubting something. If we don't have any legitimate reason to doubt something, we should not doubt it.
    And you think you're the one to decide what's a legitimate reason? LOL
    You are missing my point. What I say here is nothing but common knowledge in every scientific or philosophical discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    But not believing in something is not the same thing as doubting it.
    Huh?
    No, it isn't. An analogy might help illustrate the difference. A theist is a person who believes that there is a God. An atheist is a person who believes that there is no God, that is, a person who believes in God's non-existence. Both of them should have reasons for their beliefs, if we should have any reason to take their beliefs seriously. But an agnostic doesn't need to have any reason for being an agnostic, especially if he or she has never bothered to investigate the question of whether there is a God or not. Because an agnostic is a person who neither believes that God exists, nor believes that God doesn't exist.

    Not having an opinon is similar to being an agnostic. Having doubts is similar to being an atheist, even though your doubt can of course be strong or weak. A person who thinks that it is more likely that God does not exist than that he exists is still an atheist, not an agnostic.

  38. #38
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
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    #2 - the problem is not that I don't have legitimate reasons, but you doubt my reasons are legitimate. That's really your problem, not mine, and if you don't like my reasons you can skip over them or hit "ignore" or something.

    #3 - You're splitting hairs.

    #1 - I've forgotten what that even said LOL
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  39. #39
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Slacker,
    don't you get it?
    he's saying you shouldn't accept your perceptions of something
    nor question someone else's judgments of something based on your own perceptions

    you should instead accept other people's judgements (like his)
    and use that to question your own perceptions
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  40. #40
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    LIE, with 100% certainty. Take it from someone who's met him :wink:

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