Results 1 to 30 of 30

Thread: Two questions

  1. #1
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Two questions

    Indulge me, please

    Comment on these two issues:

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  2. #2
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    Not I.
    At a very practical level, 'morality' is useful for our current civilization, as like other common laws, it allows for structures to be built. If there was no common laws, no structure could be built, and no progress would be made as a collective unit.

    I would not change my lifestyle at all if it was made clear that once you die, that's all there is to it. Quite frankly I've already been down that road several times (signature).

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    If absoultely necessary I will say the simple emotional boosters, but I'd rather delegate or "make an assist" and pass it off to an ethical type, etc.

    My best advice would be to explain how it would be pointless to cry about it and move on to the next event, etc. Accept it and move on. If I felt compelled to do so, I'd explain how the other person's role in the relationship has, unarguably, lead to a situation where relationship potential was not maximized, therefore, there are more advantageous oppertunities out there.

    So I suppose in my own way it is saying "I know you'll find someone better", thoug I'd explain it with ... and have to translate it somewhat to a language the other person would understand.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,578
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    i say nothing and let them deal with it. nothing to do with me.

    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    i do not believe there exist any universal moral principles. moral principles only exist in the eyes of the subject, thus this question is meaningless.

  4. #4
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    My post suprises me at how LII it is.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  5. #5
    Drommel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Now in color.
    Posts
    253
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    Apparently I said it, and apparently it was helpful. And?

    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    Morals are created and enforced by the social system one is apart of. They have little to do with religion. (And yes, I'm certain there isn't a life after death.)

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    745
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Indulge me, please

    Comment on these two issues:

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    i've been in that situation and "i know you'll find someone better" was uttered when we (or i ) were both aware that the other party concerned was a real jackass. when a close one breaks up with her partner, i want to understand what led to that outcome. so, if she isn't engaging in a monologue, i will ask her questions to get the picture. and then go from there. i'm not keen on falling back on the "i know you'll find someone better" approach because it's like soothing a bruised ego by implying that the other person was not good enough anyway. it frees the close one from any blame or responsibility that she had towards the break-up. on the other hand, i will tell her that she will find someone better if the other person was indeed a nasty partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    in the past and presently, i am truthfully still rather uncertain about whether life exists after death. however, that never prevented me from abiding by any moral principles (that i've adopted; goes without saying). reason being, even if there is no life after death, i believe that whatever wrongdoings that i commit, i will experience its repercussions some time in the future in this life. this probably comes off as mystical or irrational and not subjected to.. *sigh*.. much profound thought but i still believe in it regardless. even if there is no such thing as "karma" or whatever term is used in its place, i cannot discount the possibility that whoever i wrong is going to avenge for that, and worse, take it out on a close one to watch me suffer or if i happen to be not available.

    i will use the obvious "do not cheat, steal, and kill" as an example of a moral principle just for the sake of this discussion. so it goes that if there is no life after death, there will be no real reason for me to abide by this principle since no afterlife means no judgement from God and hence no eternal damnation. so i can con anyone anytime i want, bed any woman's husband whenever it strikes my fancy, or hire a killer to get rid of people i despise. you and anyone else can also engage in those behaviours. after all, what are we to worry about since we are not going to face any judgement after we die. we'll just do whatever we want and to hell with others who judge us (we can even crush them). the problem with this mentality is that, it will ultimately result in a lot of misery for a lot of people on this earth. there will be no sense of safety, no trust... and the list goes on. you may feel compelled to constantly watch, not only your own back, but that of your spouse, child and other people who matter to you. life will be such a struggle (and as if it already isn't at times). you may also have to worry about how your grandchildren are going to fare on this beastly earth after you're gone. so no, i don't want that to happen. so even if there's no life after death, i'm going to (try) to stick to my principles. i hope i didn't sound crazy and over-the-top with this example. forgive.

  7. #7
    Creepy-bg

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Indulge me, please

    Comment on these two issues:

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    I'd never tell somebody this... IMO it's a useless cliche and sort of condecending at the same time (Yes, I'm aware others think different and that would be usefull for them but if this person is coming to me, they obviously are looking for my way of dealing with these things ) Instead of saying anything directly I'd lighten up their mood through other ways, indirectly by being a clown or I'd gently nudge them towards ripping on the ex. Let them come up with the reasons why they're better off without them. If it was a serious heart to heart talk I would reflect on my own past experiences with them, but never assume to tell them things about their life such as the quote above. (that second thing about the heart to heart would most likely end up becoming the first thing... a bitch fest about the old "other")

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    I could never be certain of that... life is mysterious, and death moreso (I have this viewpoint by choice, even if it could be logically proven- my opinion is that the proof should be burnt and the guy who came up with it hit over the head with a coconut so he forgets about it) And even if there is no life after death that doesn't affect the validity of moral principles IMO. Whether religious in origin or not, moral principles serve a purpose and are part of the glue that holds society together... (at the same time I don't necessarily think it's all that important that moral principles be upheald with rigor... merely that they exhist will have the effect needed without everybody obsessing on following them like some dark age monks flagelating themselves)

  8. #8
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Indulge me, please

    Comment on these two issues:

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".

    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    *is confused*
    Where are the two questions?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  9. #9
    Creepy-bg

    Default

    I took it as he just wants to know your thoughts on these two points... how you feel about them and what your mind does when you consider them.

  10. #10
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I took it as he just wants to know your thoughts on these two points... how you feel about them and what your mind does when you consider them.
    That's it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  11. #11
    Kristiina's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Estonia, Tartu
    Posts
    4,021
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    Agreed. If something bad happens, it's wise to remember that it was just a moment in time and things will probably get better. If there is no reason to think that the person will spend the rest of their life being alone, they'll probably find someone better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    There are two things that balance out the evil that has been done - karma and life after death. Everything that hasn't been balanced out by karma, is to be balanced out by heaven and hell. If there is no hell, then the injustice of evil actions gets much worse. So IMO, if there is no life after death, it is even more evil to abide moral principles. (PS! My moral principles just state that I'm not supposed to deliberately make anyone's' life any worse in any way. My answer probably doesn't make sense for other kind of moral principles).
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
    New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/

  12. #12
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    I took it as he just wants to know your thoughts on these two points... how you feel about them and what your mind does when you consider them.
    But that was where my thoughts went. Along with, "What is he asking? What is he thinking? Where is he going with this? Those are two seemingly unconnected ideas - so what's the connection? What type of response is he looking for? Why is he speaking in second person?" and so on.

    But, ok, I'll try to be indulgent.


    ...at a later time, though. Grandma's going to get mad if I don't come to dinner now. And ain't Grandma happy, ain't nobody happy - or so the saying goes.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  13. #13
    rockclimber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    691
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    That is not something I would say, I think that would make the person feel worse. I would try to comfort the person as much as possible... listen to everything they had to say, give them a shoulder to cry on, someone to eat ice cream (or chocolate) with, or even just take a long drive. I would tell them their relationship didn't work out for a reason, and it is better for both people to be happy in a relationship than just one (or neither, for that matter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    I couldn't be immoral, even if I was certain there was no life after death. Immorality is harmful both to individuals and society as a whole, and I could not behave in a way that would be harmful, whether emotionally or physically, to other people.
    EII

    I'll tell you what
    there is plenty wrong with me
    but I fixed up a few old buildings
    and I've planted a few trees.

  14. #14
    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Amongst the stars
    TIM
    EII/INFj E9w1sp
    Posts
    4,078
    Mentioned
    89 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    If I say that, I'm either a bit arrogant or have a preview of the future.

    If it's true and if I thought it might be helpful for that particular person, I might say it. But I couldn't count on it being true, even if the person they had before was the very worst person to have, because they might not "find" anyone else at all. I don't know. Saying things in that situation... I find it awkward. It usually works out better just to listen or to do something (like eat ice cream together, like rockclimber said). Or just be with them. It really depends on the person, though. Some people respond well to that type of reassurance, for others that would just make things seem worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    I don't think that would be entirely true. As others have mentioned, actions have consequences and there's no guarantee that one's bad choices won't come back to haunt them. At the same time, doing "good" things can result in personal catastrophe, even death. And doing "bad" things can make one's life a lot easier, and more fun.

    The problem I come across when thinking about this, though, is what is the standard for right and wrong? Where does it come from? What is moral, and why?

    Personally, I don't think life after death (it's existence and/or quality) is the whole point. Maybe part of the story, but not the whole thing. But I'm not entirely sure about that, yet.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

  15. #15
    detail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    483
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    No to the rationalization of emotions. You can say that only after it's been a while the person has been dumped, otherwise it's a bit like speaking chinese to someone who speaks english. Or:


    The heart does not understand the language of the mind!



    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    I don't agree simply because i think they are unrelated. Like i think it's weird the statement holds for premise that the belief that there is a life after is the main and only reason to hold moral principles. Sure they can be reconciled with religious concepts, but in the end it's more a matter of moral authority and actual, written, definite laws than the actual fear of paying for one's sins i think. Anyways, i don't need more explanation than: I know many people who are certain that there is no life after death and they still abide by moral principles. I am one of those (From the point of view of my beliefs and spirituality, not scientifically certain, as i don't have any proofs) and i have reasons such as: I don't want to inflict to others what i wouldn't like them to inflict to me, i don't want to live in constant useless conflict, there is also some kind of unexplainable drive to act "correctly" towards others.


    I realize the goal was not to try to disprove the statements, but i think to explain correctly what effect they had on me, i had to include the context of my thoughts, which seemed like i was trying to argue when i was not.

  16. #16
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Question #1

    - play this for them on Max Volume: http://new.wavlist.com/movies/326/bhrt-freedom.wav
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    The conclusion does not follow from the premise, because the existence and/or validity of moral principles is completely logically independent of the question whether there is a life after death or not. It is also completely independent of many other questions, for example whether there is a God or not.

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    703
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Sure, why not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    I wouldn't consider it helpful. It kind of strikes me as implying my friend has a "need" for such a relationship. Plus it seems to sweep the real issue of dealing with the pain by saying a new one will come along and replace what's "missing." I think it better to comfort the friend and remind him/her that the pain and loss is only temporary. If the relationship was bad for the friend anyway, I might point that out (depending on how possible that is) and note the advantages. If the relationship was great and beneficial, I might point out that at least it was a good experience that enhanced his/her life, even though it's ended.

    Ultimately, I'd handle such an event on an individual basis. However, I sincerely doubt I'd ever make that statement.

    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    Well, I'll assume for the sake of making this work that you mean an afterlife wherein the quality of my existence within it is determined by my actions on Earth. Either way, it's still a bad statement. Morality shouldn't be determined by selfish avoidance of punishment or pursuit of impulsive pleasures (although it works for children, they eventual mature past that stage). Morality most likely exists for the sake of the coexistence of individuals in society, although it can be, and has been, hijacked for purposes of social control. It is, to some degree, hardwired into our brains, so without some kind of brain damage or disorder, it's rather hard for us to act against the basic moral imperatives. In fact, a curious detail of empathy, seeing others suffering causes our brains to "light up" in the same areas that would light up if we ourselves were suffering.

    Out of laziness, I'll just go with the statement that you should still abide by moral principles because it's the right thing to do. I could support that statement a bit, but I figure it's probably more detail than you care to be applied to this.
    That faith makes blessed under certain circumstances, that blessedness does not make of a fixed idea a true idea, that faith moves no mountains but puts mountains where there are none: a quick walk through a madhouse enlightens one sufficiently about this. (A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.) - Friedrich Nietzsche

  19. #19
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Indulge me, please

    Comment on these two issues:

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    Nah. I'll ask her out. I don't think there are better or worse people, generally. I think that saying "you'll find someone better" can be said only if the person that has made the dumping was a really shitty human being. In most cases, this sentence signals envy and bitterness towards the other party, which is no good.


    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    First of all I don't believe in "abiding" to moral principles. Secondly, obviously not: the reason why moral principles are there is to make people's interaction go well and not to make everybody hate each other, so I would still follow them because otherwise if the principle is applied to all the population the world goes awry.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  20. #20
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Indulge me, please

    Comment on these two issues:

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    I can see how people could be hurt by that if they loved that person and thought that person was the best person in the world. But it's generally true - at least people will find someone better *for them* because if that person was the best person *for them* that person would still be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    No - it's worthwhile to try to make the world a better place, particularly if you have kids. But even if you just care about other people in general, which I think most people do. Or I hope they do. Anyway, I don't believe in life after death in the slightest but that doesn't stop me from trying to improve the world at all.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,834
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    1) I think it'd be best to focus on the situation at hand with the person, before talking about them finding someone better. Just let them vent and work out their own emotions I think is the best way. Jumping ahead to talking about new people doesn't let them grieve (which is what they need to do to get past it). Instead, you could just let them know you understand how heartbreaking it is, and how painful. Give them chances to vent and explain to you how it's painful. Usually saying things like "you'll find someone better" is more comforting to the person saying it, than to the person hearing it.

    2) I think morality gives us a happy life for the time we are living. Everyone who is sane has a natural sense of right and wrong. I believe it's a human instinct to do good. As much as some people try to ignore it, it is still there. When sane people do wrong, they feel wrong. It's a feeling you can never really shake and it will poison your life. I decided in kindergarden to never hurt others after I made a fat girl cry. I can still see her face and I would never intentionally hurt someone again. I think knowing that you have chosen the right thing to do in all situations in your life, and fessing up when you've done wrong, gives you a freedom and a joy that you can't have any other way. No matter how much you lie, you will know what you've done. And you can't feel like a good person, unless you are. So regardless of an afterlife or not, if you are not living good, you are going to feel like crap. And what a wasted life that is.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

  22. #22
    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    6,612
    Mentioned
    156 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ahem.

    What is the point of this thread, exactly? I assume it has something to do with faith...

    And what the hell does it have to do with Non-socionic Type theories?!?

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Why even imagine that life after death does not exist? What does it serve? If after the end of history the losers don't get their fair rejoice, then I we are all deeply immoral people.

    I think that the pursuit of life after death and the concept of morality are intertwined.

  24. #24
    Creepy-Diana

    Default Re: Two questions

    .

  25. #25
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Why even imagine that life after death does not exist? What does it serve? If after the end of history the losers don't get their fair rejoice, then I we are all deeply immoral people.

    I think that the pursuit of life after death and the concept of morality are intertwined.
    HUH?????
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,578
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Why even imagine that life after death does not exist? What does it serve? If after the end of history the losers don't get their fair rejoice, then I we are all deeply immoral people.

    I think that the pursuit of life after death and the concept of morality are intertwined.
    HUH?????
    rofl. tcaud, each and every single one of your posts are so stupid it's hilarious. i should really unignore you so that i can laugh at them.

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA.
    TIM
    INTj
    Posts
    4,497
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by detail

    I don't agree simply because i think they are unrelated. Like i think it's weird the statement holds for premise that the belief that there is a life after is the main and only reason to hold moral principles. Sure they can be reconciled with religious concepts, but in the end it's more a matter of moral authority and actual, written, definite laws than the actual fear of paying for one's sins i think. Anyways, i don't need more explanation than: I know many people who are certain that there is no life after death and they still abide by moral principles. I am one of those (From the point of view of my beliefs and spirituality, not scientifically certain, as i don't have any proofs) and i have reasons such as: I don't want to inflict to others what i wouldn't like them to inflict to me, i don't want to live in constant useless conflict, there is also some kind of unexplainable drive to act "correctly" towards others.


    I realize the goal was not to try to disprove the statements, but i think to explain correctly what effect they had on me, i had to include the context of my thoughts, which seemed like i was trying to argue when i was not.
    lol, ENTp. Everyone, now imagine this with a french accent. Sounds even more so.
    ----

    ok

    1) no, but I would try to make them feel better by lightening the mood or stimulating their senses like stroking their arm or back. Or, I would just listen to them. However I do have a tendency to try to "fix" a problem of feeling bad. However I think it does more harm to lie because the truth is you don't know the future period. Or else I would not feel this way without any evidence. *takes a moment to stop frothing at the mouth at such lies*

    2) Life after death sounds different than whether or not God exists. If I knew there was no God I might behave differently.

  28. #28

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    62
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Expat, may I know why you're asking us to comment on the following statements??

    My comments:

    1) Someone very close to you has just had a very painful break-up -- or, rather, been unexpectedly dumped. One of the things you find helpful to say is "I know you'll find someone better".
    I don't think I'll say that becuase I don't know for sure and I can imagine that to my close friend, the ex-lover is probably the best (rightly or wrongly) or the breakup won't be so painful. If the ex-lover is a jerk (for example, beats wife), then of course, it would be easy to say that my close friend will find someone better, but in most situations it's really hard to tell.

    2) If you were certain that there was no life after death, there would be no real reason to abide by any moral principles.
    I think from a very selfish point of view, there IS every reason to abide by moral principles to a certain extent. Humans abide by them and if you are to live happy, you are better off conforming. You don't say rape children because if you do, you'll be locked up in jail (perhaps for life?). You can lie as much you want if you're happier that way (assuming that you don't get into legal issues for your lies). It's really just about happiness maximization.

    Some people act morally because that makes them feel good. It's a preference to them, doesn't matter why they have this preference in the first place.

  29. #29
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thank you for the replies, anyone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by sara
    Expat, may I know why you're asking us to comment on the following statements??
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    What is the point of this thread, exactly? I assume it has something to do with faith...

    And what the hell does it have to do with Non-socionic Type theories?!?
    I have noticed those statements a few times, not just recently but throughout my life, from different people. Not every day or every month, but on occasion.

    I have heard the first one directed to myself, and being made to others, even in movies (where, interestingly, sometimes the point is indirectly made that it is something people say but that isn't helpful).

    The second one is often made during religious debates, most recently in a debate in a very recent edition of Newsweek.

    Neither of them makes sense to me, for the reasons many in this thread have cited, but they seem to make sense to some people, so I was curious as to what you'd say.

    As for why in this sub-forum: well it could have gone in "Anything Goes" but I thought that perhaps some Socionics or near-Socionics conclusion might perhaps be drawn.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  30. #30
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,314
    Mentioned
    205 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    fwiw,
    i think i may have said something along the lines of the first one to you expat,
    but at the time it seemed like you were doing pretty good at analyzing the relationship, pros and cons
    and taking a philosphical and detached approach
    hence the philosophical response along the lines of there being someone out there better suited to you than this person was.
    it did seem that you were frustrated, but not something "very painful"


    as for the second
    i don't believe in some judgment reigning down from on high
    i believe in natural consequences, action/reaction
    in a natural society, if one harms the people around them, people will avoid him, retaliate, demand justice, or persecute him
    i don't believe in "putting it into the hands of God"
    (meanwhile, i still believe in life after death...but not judgment after death)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •