Asceticism, austerity -- needing an ESE? | Spirituality

[UDP]

I wanted to start this thread about this, but I don't have the time to finish it presently, so more later
I know of course no one can answer these questions but me, though I was wondering if anyone has had related experiences.




It has become increasingly difficult for me to enjoy things... and to shift between relaxing and working. (Even my latest round of posts here in the last two days... I felt... odd in this regard)
This might be a consequence of going further into , and maybe even further into being Enna-type 1. Or not - as it seems, although I enjoy interacting with others and having group success, it is ultimately draining to produce an overly compassionate response, etc. I do what is necessary for group unity and such, but I cannot deny that at my core I am quite detached - and I think I "have problems admitting that" - that is to say, I have problems declaring that, in terms of being concerned about the success of the social situation, over representing my 'personality style' more clearly. ((But I am finding that compromising is not enjoyable...)

Social expectations and lubrication requires that I understand people's disposition and make necessary adjustments as I go - which I really don't mind. But in the process, I have a tendency to loose who I am. Or maybe this really is a process of learning more so who I am, and that even though I see my main interest as the sphere of people, I am a reserved, flamboyant kind of person. It seems like that aura of restraint is somewhat necessary... and that straying too far from it leaves me uneasy.
This contradiction has been puzzling me for a time.
(It seems like the answer is to be completely comfortable with being myself, and instead of seeing that as an inhibition of the process, find out a way to be sincere about both being myself and desiring to have the greatest possible outcome of the situation - trying not to make it 'one or the other' )



The second part of this post has to do with what appears to be a dichotomy between dual seeking&dual appreciation, and spiritual progress. If we are to use Buddhism as an example, it illustrates how having desires is the root of suffering. Yet my actions seem to generate subconsciously the need for an ESE to manage that area of my life. From both a spiritual perspective, as well as a more secular, 'overcoming my weaknesses' perspective, I am unsure of how to approach this matter - unsure of how to act so to say. Unsure of how to really interpret things. I know of course no one can answer these questions but me, though I was wondering if anyone has had related experiences.

[aestrivex]

spirituality is an area in which it is very easy to become at ease with oneself once one realizes how much bullshit contemporary spirituality actually is and opens themself to the brutal world exactly as is.

[UDP]

originally: not applicable

[aestrivex]

at least that's better than the response i was expecting.

[UDP]

what do you mean?

I edited it again, actually

[science as magic]

originally: not applicable

he is basically saying don't be a coward by running away from your problems and "spiritualizing" them.

while i agree that a "spiritual" outlook can often be quite detrimental it seems apparent that the chemical processes by which such outlooks are realized are useful in other circumstances as they seem to be natural engines of creation. at any rate i hardly think niffweed can claim "reality" as he seems to actively cut himself off from much of it.

[aestrivex]

originally: not applicable

he is basically saying don't be a coward by running away from your problems and "spiritualizing" them.

while i agree that a "spiritual" outlook can often be quite detrimental it seems apparent that the chemical processes by which such outlooks are realized are useful in other circumstances as they seem to be natural engines of creation. at any rate i hardly think niffweed can claim "reality" as he seems to actively cut himself off from much of it.

you didn't understand my post at all.

[UDP]

originally: not applicable

he is basically saying don't be a coward by running away from your problems and "spiritualizing" them.

...... the way I see it, a sincere spiritual outlook is actually much more difficult than 'common reality'.
So in fact, I would be running away if it were the other way around.


Spirituality is probably just like honor, in terms of both of those words having heavy stigmas and connotations. Oh well.
It is easy to see how the mention of either of those words would trigger the "Bliss Ninny" red flag from the average person.


At the very least it should be made clear that I detest running away from 'problems' - which is why I seek the source, the root.

[aestrivex]

(I didn't interpret his comment as necessarily having anything to do with being a coward and running away; but rather, as having to do with "true" enlightment or awareness of where you are at)

thank you. you get it.

[UDP]

When I first began seriously questioning my type, I saw a lot of my actions as Fi/Feseeking programming, especially growing up with certain alpha/delta influences. At this time, I wonder about it even more, as I keep speed-delegating my responses to past preset actions, rather than choosing what I want to do, and being the person I am / I want to be.

But still, "old scripts" seem to keep playing.

[science as magic]

Spirituality is probably just like honor, in terms of both of those words having heavy stigmas and connotations.

yeah, i agree. i was basically trying to say that you should ignore the douchebags that limit themselves to only processing particular forms of information while remaining at the pinnacle of development.

[UDP]

What do you want to do? Who is the person you are/want to be?

I just happened to come across an unambiguously appearing ... book? called Power and Passion: Finding Your Personal Purpose by Juana Bordas. It seems surprisingly useful.


One possible answer: I want to be someone who figures out the best way for the people of this world to coexist. And no, niffweed, we can't kill everyone. That would be too easy. Perhaps generate a foundation or organization that would be dedicated to that, and do my best to set examples and create and environment that was anti-corruption in the best possible way. Force people to deal with things in ways other than resorting to corruption, which will compromise the entire system. Other than that, I'd like to write books and talk about "leadership", as I see it (That's the best word for it -- see Covey and Greenleaf and others), and try to promote and encourage that somehow. Travel the world and try to talk about leadership, as I see leadership as the best secular tool that can be used by all people in all situations to improve things. Something to that end.

If it comes down to it, I'm just going to round up some alpha/delta friends and try to spend our time doing worthy things.

Last resort would be retire to a monetary, somewhere that is quiet enough, or maybe some sort of priest (?). But while I still am somewhat capable, I will try to spend my time "doing things".


My natural interest does not seem to lie in physics, or at least it just hasn't worked out, as is the case with many LIIs. I respect technological advance, but I feel it will only be of use if we have a culture and world environment that can use it responsibly. And that takes priority for me, as I know I can and have influenced it positively during my life time. So I will do what I can there. I know there is no big green button that solves all problems, but that won't stop me from seeing what I can do.


As far as materialism goes, it means nothing to me. But as far as competence, presence, confidence, and reality - that is very important to me. I greatly do not want to overlook 'what is', but just as greatly I refuse to turn away from what could be.

(MBTI INTJ)

[tcaudilllg]

Niffweed and UPD:
You both seem locked in battle with the Anima, the suggestive function. For UDP (LII) it's ; for Niffweed (ILI), it's . And for Carla (sounds like INFp), the same. (against the Animus)

I never let get in the way of my decisionmaking. It conflicts with .

[UDP]

I agree, as far as decision making goes.

Actual data intake, however, requires much more than just . If Ti refuses to look at other things, then it is completely arbitrary.

[tcaudilllg]

Right, but I meant :T: as well.

[Exodus]

I never let get in the way of my decisionmaking. It conflicts with .

I think you two are looking at this the wrong way. Fe is complementary to Ti, in all the ways that count. Can you imagine an ESFj saying "I never let Ti get in the way of socializing. It conflicts with Fe." ?

It's absolutely ridiculous, especially if you have had any experience with duality.

Actual data intake, however, requires much more than just .

What do you mean by "data intake", exactly? I think we might be on the same page here, but I'm not sure.

[tcaudilllg]

Not really... is antithetical to structure. Put it this way: I don't let other people's perceptions play a part in the determination of what my role should be. In this sense, the conflict is actually a vs. thing. I don't take suggestions regarding what my role in the world should be.

Ironically, I make such suggestions to others.

[Exodus]

Not really... is antithetical to structure. Put it this way: I don't let other people's perceptions play a part in the determination of what my role should be. In this sense, the conflict is actually a vs. thing. I don't take suggestions regarding what my role in the world should be.

Ironically, I make such suggestions to others.

I think the word you're looking for is "hypocritically".

[UDP]

I never let get in the way of my decisionmaking. It conflicts with .

I think you two are looking at this the wrong way. Fe is complementary to Ti, in all the ways that count. Can you imagine an ESFj saying "I never let Ti get in the way of socializing. It conflicts with Fe." ?

It's absolutely ridiculous, especially if you have had any experience with duality.

Actual data intake, however, requires much more than just .

What do you mean by "data intake", exactly? I think we might be on the same page here, but I'm not sure.

How about you go first

[UDP]

Now that I understand my type more deeply, this thread for me has a lot to do with the following:




[web:c9e54a5ccc]http://socionics.us/practice/spirituality.shtml[/web:c9e54a5ccc]




Worthy service. I feel I have to spend my time on things that are "important", and I always though this "important" bit was . And I still believe I use Ti, and I like Ti a lot because it cuts out a lot of unnecessary things. However, what is "important" to me also has to do with the results that it produces - what direction it goes in, and progress.

INTjs are interested in the future and bringing it here. My take on it, however, is more action and physically orientated. I want to be someone personally facilitating it. I too am dissatisfied with reality, and see room for improvement. I know right now this post does not sound very conclusive, but I wanted to try to address this old matter in some way.


I am still very acetic, and do not like to waste time on frivolous things, but in manifests more so in terms of how I constantly spend my time:

http://socionics.us/practice/mood.shtml

LSE
Director

always busy with projects; practical and skeptical; action oriented; professional; active involvement

If I do not have something worthy to do all the time, I feel odd. Not that INTjs are different, but, I want to explain why it was so easy for me to mistake myself as one, in the past. As well as considering what I wrote about "awakening the ego"

[Logos]

INTjs are interested in the future and bringing it here. My take on it, however, is more action and physically orientated. I want to be someone personally facilitating it. I too am dissatisfied with reality, and see room for improvement. I know right now this post does not sound very conclusive, but I wanted to try to address this old matter in some way.

Interesting idea, and it is one worth entertaining.

[tcaudilllg]

What about when one puts two spiritual outlooks together? = service to truth?