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Thread: Fe Hidden Agenda

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    Default Fe Hidden Agenda

    It seems to me that "to be well liked" or "to be popular" would be a more accurate description than "to be loved".
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    It might just be a translation issue, anyway I personally would interpret "to be loved" as including more than just romantic love - like to include being popular and well liked.
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    It seems to me that it has to do with people openly expressing that they are enjoying their interaction with the ExTp and think well of the ExTp.
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    In my experience, Fe hidden agenda is about seeking positive feedback from other people, or being popular. It's also about acting in correct ways so that you do not have to worry about being evaluated.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    It's also about acting in correct ways so that you do not have to worry about being evaluated.
    Does it have to do with wanting to be in a favorable social role?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    It's also about acting in correct ways so that you do not have to worry about being evaluated.
    Does it have to do with wanting to be in a favorable social role?
    yes.

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    sigh

    To someone who's new to socionics, the hidden agenda "to be loved" could be mistaken for Fi > Fe, especially with Te types.
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    yeah; "to be loved" probably applies quite strongly to Te dominant types. i sort of agree with expat in that sergei ganin's hidden agenda descriptors are of questionable value (an assertion that i'm sure takes each and every one of you by overwhelming surprise).

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    We should write new ones.
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    Well I think that it is possible for the hidden agenda of a given function to manifest itself in a variety of different ways between individuals, so that adds to the complexity of trying to describe these hidden agendas explicitly.
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    I think that HA are a different manifestation of what a person things of as the realm of the polr. To some extent I think to be loved is accurate. Of course it could be improved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    I think that HA are a different manifestation of what a person things of as the realm of the polr. To some extent I think to be loved is accurate. Of course it could be improved.
    I think attacks from the PoLR are always perceived as attacks on the validity of the HA. In a sense this works for any Xe-Xi function pair.

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    Default Re: Fe Hidden Agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    It seems to me that "to be well liked" or "to be popular" would be a more accurate description than "to be loved".
    Yes, I agree.

    It's also about acting in correct ways so that you do not have to worry about being evaluated.
    No. Couldn't care less about that. I break social norms, barriers, (ps. not the law) act like a fool, who cares? It's actually for me a way to discern people that will get along with me to people that won't. Just the thought of acting in a "correct" way makes me rattle.
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    Default Fe hidden agenda=popularity?

    Do you think that it can be summarized as such? People with Fe hidden agenda have popularity as hidden aim?
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    well liked, well thought of, popular, something to that end

    People with weak Fi aren't good at seeing likes and dislikes and how close relationships are. They're not really sure how to feel about the people and events around them, or how those people feel about them. ExTps have a Fi PoLR, so this is going to be an area of insecurity for them. ExTps like to be around those who not only supply Fe, but also make them feel like they have strong Fe. Unmistakable warmth, familiarity, and emotional expression from those around them is the best way to accomplish this.

    ExFps know who is their friend and who is not, how close their friends are, who likes and dislikes who, etc. With IxTp as a dual, you can be sure that "unmistakable warmth, familiarity, and emotional expression from those around them" isn't all that important to them. They may be good at being popular and they may or may not care about being popular (depending on the person of course), but "unmistakable warmth, familiarity, and emotional expression from those around them" isn't going to cover any of their weaknesses or ease their insecurities because they know how others feel about them without all that Fe.
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    Default Re: Fe hidden agenda=popularity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Do you think that it can be summarized as such? People with Fe hidden agenda have popularity as hidden aim?
    yep, that's true for me
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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    Default Re: Fe hidden agenda=popularity?

    Well I think they do want to be popular in a way. I would rather say they like to be well-liked. But as it says in Gulenko's ESFp vs ESTp description, ESFps are generally more interested in being at the center of attention and ESTps prefer to remain "in the shadows".

    If you compare the following descriptions you get the idea that ESFps are more interested in being popular and noticed and attract attention in the common sense of the word:

    "ESFps usually wear original, brightly coloured, eye-catching clothes and accessories in order to attract attention to themselves. This is especially applicable to females. They are often influenced by the latest fashions, but will not wear something if they feel it will not suit them. "

    "ESTps rarely wear eye-catching clothes. They try to maintain a neutral style of clothes, steering away from fashion. Females prefer not to wear very bright or colourful clothing. Males have an inclination to official styles of clothing such as suits etc. ESTps generally prefer to remain in the shadows."

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    Default Re: Fe hidden agenda=popularity?

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    "ESTps rarely wear eye-catching clothes. They try to maintain a neutral style of clothes, steering away from fashion. Females prefer not to wear very bright or colourful clothing. Males have an inclination to official styles of clothing such as suits etc. ESTps generally prefer to remain in the shadows."
    I think that is because of a lack of confidence in that area, like, they are not sure how to be "off the wall" so to speak.

    ::EDIT::

    It would really help to understand when approaching this.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Default Re: Fe hidden agenda=popularity?

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Well I think they do want to be popular in a way. I would rather say they like to be well-liked. But as it says in Gulenko's ESFp vs ESTp description, ESFps are generally more interested in being at the center of attention and ESTps prefer to remain "in the shadows".

    If you compare the following descriptions you get the idea that ESFps are more interested in being popular and noticed and attract attention in the common sense of the word:

    "ESFps usually wear original, brightly coloured, eye-catching clothes and accessories in order to attract attention to themselves. This is especially applicable to females. They are often influenced by the latest fashions, but will not wear something if they feel it will not suit them. "

    "ESTps rarely wear eye-catching clothes. They try to maintain a neutral style of clothes, steering away from fashion. Females prefer not to wear very bright or colourful clothing. Males have an inclination to official styles of clothing such as suits etc. ESTps generally prefer to remain in the shadows."
    that's bullshit
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    You can't type someone based on the way they dress. There are too many environmental factors. And an E(S)Tp is going to stand out more than an ES(F)p. And just because a lot of ESFps are better at being well liked (and perhaps even popular) than a lot of ExTps are doesn't mean that it's more important to them than it is to ExTps.

    Isn't Gulenko INTj? His descriptions make ESTps sound like a more intelligent and tolerable version of ESFps, imo. His ESFp description is almost as bad as Filatova's.
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    I totally agreed with you all the way up to the ESFp "in crowd" statement. If I had to pick a way that the "in crowd" thing is type related, I'd most strongly associate it with Beta. But anyways... you're right, "well liked" is a much better way to explain it than "popular".
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    I don't understand why people always assume Betans to put a lot of emphasis on the whole Aristocracy/Cliques/"In Crowd" stuff..

    All the Betans I know, (myself included) do no such thing .. =/ I just find it misleading.. almost a bad reputation for us. Actually, the biggest cliques I know belong to Deltans.. if you believe it or not. And there is a ton of that whole "power" struggle stuff going on in the "rankings" of the members of said group.. *nods*

    Alpha however.. true to form.. they do no such thing. Gammas, not sure. Don't know any real big Gamma groups but then again, I don't know many Gammas either.


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    I dunno, there are all kinds of people of every type in every quadra. Based on what I've observed though, Beta's got Fe, Ti, Se, and aristocracy... not sure what could be more "cliquish" than that. Not to mention ESTps and ENFjs............................................. ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by snp7901
    ESFp's seem too flighty for that anyway. maybe a bit like how ENTj's work hard to get ahead objectively, but in my experiences are less likely to get caught up in corporate culture wars (Te + Si?) they're more there for their own goal or vision, which maybe is what gamma democracy is.
    yeah, themselves and their loved ones
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    I agree. The beta people I know are a pretty tight group but they really couldn't function in the normal person's world and don't care much for popularity. One's always hugging people and reciting german poetry and the other is too queer. One's creativity always makes me laugh. His employer invited him to a conference on their tree-saving campaign and he suggested a pirate theme called, "Giver me timbers." good stuff.
    asd

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    Default Re: Fe hidden agenda=popularity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Well I think they do want to be popular in a way. I would rather say they like to be well-liked. But as it says in Gulenko's ESFp vs ESTp description, ESFps are generally more interested in being at the center of attention and ESTps prefer to remain "in the shadows".

    If you compare the following descriptions you get the idea that ESFps are more interested in being popular and noticed and attract attention in the common sense of the word:

    "ESFps usually wear original, brightly coloured, eye-catching clothes and accessories in order to attract attention to themselves. This is especially applicable to females. They are often influenced by the latest fashions, but will not wear something if they feel it will not suit them. "

    "ESTps rarely wear eye-catching clothes. They try to maintain a neutral style of clothes, steering away from fashion. Females prefer not to wear very bright or colourful clothing. Males have an inclination to official styles of clothing such as suits etc. ESTps generally prefer to remain in the shadows."
    that's bullshit
    Not necessarily. I don't know enough individuals to know for sure but I do think ESFps are more more comfortable being the center of attention. ESTps want people sort of look up to them and like them but they may start freaking out in certain social contexts and situations. It would be interesting to know whether Silvio Berlusconi (I'm not sure if you know who he is) is ESFp or ESTp as he is a real attention seeker. I would say he is ESFp but don't now for sure. Comparing him to e.g. Donald Trump is perhaps one way to compare the ESFp and ESTp attention seeking behavior.

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    Any type can be attention seeking... I won't get any further into my opinions of which types are more likely to engage in which types of attention seeking behavior based on my personal experiences and whatnot.

    The important thing to understand here is that "attention seeking" is not what this thread is about, and now that we have defined "popular" better we can say that the ExTp hidden agenda is not "to be popular". The point is:

    ExTp hidden agenda: to be well liked (or well received?)
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    show me an attention seeking SLI.

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    np, I just so happen to have one in my back pocket....

    Whether or not people of a particular type are more likely or less likely to be attention seeking, there are people of every type who are, and different people do it in different ways. I don't want to get into this.
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    My initial response is that I don't care to be popular. My attitude towards "popular" people has always been rather ambivalent or sometimes disapproving. However, I'm not quite willing to be hated or even picked out of a crowd in a negative way.

    Basically, I come across as if I just want everyone to "like" or "know" me equally. In school settings, I wanted the yuppies to think I was okay and I wanted the druggies to think I was okay too. I wanted every single represented crowd to think I was
    "okay" but to not know me well enough to either really like me or really dislike me. I don't even really want my closest friends to think of me as overwhelmingly positive. To be received so positively makes me feel pressured to continue to evoke a positive response, which is something I know for certain I cannot do. If, for example, the yuppie started liking me and seeking me out for friendship, I would feel bad to have to reveal that I didn't actually like her very much in the first place. Soon enough, I couldn't help but attack her brand of materialism, or something, and this would lead to unpleasant relations. Or perhaps one day I would just prove unable to deliver the mood that was required to keep the relation neutral. Then I would grieve the loss of a "good relation," which was, for all intents and purposes, simply "not bad."
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    Default Re: Fe hidden agenda=popularity?

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Well I think they do want to be popular in a way. I would rather say they like to be well-liked. But as it says in Gulenko's ESFp vs ESTp description, ESFps are generally more interested in being at the center of attention and ESTps prefer to remain "in the shadows".

    If you compare the following descriptions you get the idea that ESFps are more interested in being popular and noticed and attract attention in the common sense of the word:

    "ESFps usually wear original, brightly coloured, eye-catching clothes and accessories in order to attract attention to themselves. This is especially applicable to females. They are often influenced by the latest fashions, but will not wear something if they feel it will not suit them. "

    "ESTps rarely wear eye-catching clothes. They try to maintain a neutral style of clothes, steering away from fashion. Females prefer not to wear very bright or colourful clothing. Males have an inclination to official styles of clothing such as suits etc. ESTps generally prefer to remain in the shadows."
    By this token, I'd be straight away ESFp. The brightest the better! But I hate "common" fashion like, brand clothing (way too hight cost/quality ratio).

    show me an attention seeking SLI.
    I don't think I'll get him to post here, but I'll give you a pic soon of one.
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    Default Re: Fe hidden agenda=popularity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    By this token, I'd be straight away ESFp.
    Perhaps you are

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    Seems more likely than not at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Seems more likely than not at this point.
    Doubtful.
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    Not much more likely... Se dominance is the only seemingly apparent thing. I just don't see the Ti, and little things here and there point to ESFp > ESTp. It's not like I know him irl though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Not much more likely... Se dominance is the only seemingly apparent thing. I just don't see the Ti, and little things here and there point to ESFp > ESTp. It's not like I know him irl though.
    How does FDG NOT have strong Ti and Fi PoLR?

    And for christ's sake, don't make disclaimers.

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    It's an important point though because I don't really see online communication as a valid means of gathering information to type a person. I think it's important to witness that person in their day to day life and actually see them interacting with different people in different situations.
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    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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