INFP or INTP (or something else?)

[stevENTj]

A month or so ago I took the test at http://socionics.wsphere.com/, but then I got busy and didn't have much if any time to post on forums at all. Here were the results...

http://socionics.wsphere.com/cgi-bin...669295991.html

Looks like the server is down? Well, I saved a local copy (html only) so I have the text but not some of the images, but here are the results more or less.



Strong Functions

Ne, Ni, Te, Ti, Se, Fe, Fi

Weak Functions

Te, Si, Fi

Type by Attribute
[not necessarily your indicated type]

INFP


Type by Function
[unordered primary/secondary functions]

ENTP - INTJ = 22
ESFJ - ISFP = 12
ENFJ - INFP = 22
ESTP - ISTJ = 12
ESFP - ISFJ = 12
ENTJ - INTP = 22
ESTJ - ISTP = 12
ENFP - INFJ = 18

Functional Preference

Ne (28)
Ni (24)
Ti (22)
Fe (20)
Se (18)
Te (18)
Fi (16)
Si (-2)

(there was some more graphical stuff, but it's gone now. d'oh!)


I'm basically trying to figure out if I'm more an INTP or an INFP, and maybe learn more about sub-type and functional preference stuff. On most other MBTI related tests pretty much all of the T/F type questions stump me. I can't answer some of them either way. To me, sometimes emotional considerations matter and other times they don't. How I answer a lot of those questions depends on what examples from my life I was reflecting on at the time and could have really gone either way. And then what ends up happening is I end up splitting straight down the middle between T/F. In Keirsey's Please Understand Me II book I came out dead even on T/F questions. He said if you tie to take the temperament sorter in the back of his book. Did that too and scored dead even between NT and NF. heh. I figured this test was big enough that maybe it'd cut through that and dig a bit deeper than the others.

For the past couple of months I've been reflecting back on my whole life and could probably make equally strong cases for either NF or NT. A lot of NF characterisitcs fit me, but then a lot of NT traits do too, and it always seems to be a lot equal. So I've just been considering myself an INxP for now. But still, it'd be nice to know and understand a little more.

If I'm an INFP, isn't my Fi a bit low? It's in both strong and weak functions. Overall my T functions (Te & Ti) are stronger than F, so maybe I'm an INTP with very strong F? But if that's the case, I'm wondering why it still came out INFP in the type by attribute?

Thanks in advance for any help or insight.


Steve

[Rocky]

The problem is that the hidden agenda for an INFP (NiFe) is Ti, and the hidden agenda for an INTP (NiTe) is Fi. This is why an NiFe type might confuse himself for an NiTe type or vice-versa. You might want to figure which funtion brings you down more, extraverted thinking or extraverted feeling. If Te bothers you, you are probably NiFe. If Fe bothers you you are probably NiTe.



Or you can answer this question, which one fits you better?

I am unconfident in how people feel towards me, how to deal with people in a tactful manner and how to be empathetic towards them and I am confident in making logical decisions, seperating from my emotions and other people's needs while thinking, and understanding mechanical (non-human) things.

...or...

I am confident in how people feel towards me, how to deal with people in a tactful manner and how to be empathetic towards them and I am unconfident in making logical decisions, seperating from my emotions and other people's needs while thinking, and understanding mechanical (non-human) things.

[stevENTj]

Rocky, those questions are all real stumpers for me. I'll have to contemplate them for a little bit.

But before we go any further here's something really really important. I think I may have been answering the E/I questions wrong, and if so it could make all of the above irrelevant.

I've noticed that my behavior in real life and online is very different.

IRL I tend to be very quiet and reserved and very much an introvert. I have very few real life friends that I enjoy talking to, and the only person I really truly extrovert with IRL is my wife. I have no problems extroverting with her. We can talk about anything and express anything to each other. But for the most part, IRL, I am a very strong introvert. I usually come out 80-90% introverted on most tests when I'm ONLY considering real life social situations.

But online I'm very different. I see topics of interest to me and I have no qualms about getting involved and expressing myself no matter what it is. In a sense, I DO enjoy being the center of attention in situations like this. Online I also enjoy interacting with a wide variety of people on lots of different topics. I'm a member of many different online forums, I enjoy getting other views, and I enjoy expressing mine. I even help to run a few forums. One has about 14,000 members, and the other 40,000+, and I'm very well known at those places. If I consider the online arena, I could very much consider myself an Extrovert. In fact I just took a short test and included online forums into my consideration and did in fact turn out an Extrovert. I came out ENFP.

So is it correct or incorrect to include "online socialization" behavior patterns when answering E/I questions, or are these questions specifically for real-life scenarios? I've assumed real-life only and answered them as such before, but I'm starting to think that maybe I ought to include online stuff since it is a way a socialize and is a part of me.

Thoughts?

I think the reason for this is that for me, real-life conversation style is too dynamic and on-the-fly, and I don't have the precise word control that I feel I need and as a result would rather stay quiet. Online, I always put a tremendous amount of thought into my posts, have the precise word control needed, it's not on-the-fly so there's time to think which gives you the control, and then I feel a lot more comfortable expressing myself.

What got me thinking on this is that my functional preference seems to line up best with an ENTP, but I've always tested very strongly "I" (but wasn't considering online socializing). A lot of stuff in an ENTP profile I read fits me, maybe better than INTP. Hmmmm....


Or am I totally and completely wrong and confused in my analysis here? (likely)

[Rocky]

I does sound like you are an Introvert.

Could you please go over here and see what you get with that quick test? It only takes a minute to decide. I'd like to hear what you pick.

[stevENTj]

I'm very confident about logical decisions, and very confident about what I believe in. I'm "somewhat" confident but have doubts as to how people feel about me, and no I don't know how to take care of myself at times (but my wife does ).

So that would make me a C.

Between C-1 and C-2, I'm definitely not insensitve to people's feelings from #2, and I definitely lack determination and organization at times.

So I guess I'd call it C-1.


Edit: The D-1 description I can identify with very strongly too though.

[Rocky]

ENTP IMO.

I wonder why so many ENxx types sound introverted.

[Angel von Himmel]

I went ahead and redid your results ... socionics.wsphere.com changed to socion.info a few weeks back.

http://socion.info/cgi-bin/beta3test...669295992.html

[Angel von Himmel]

By the way, you could very well be ENTp ... ENTps have a tendency to think that they are XNFX types and introverts when they are really extroverts.

[Angel von Himmel]

ENTP IMO.

I wonder why so many ENxx types sound introverted.

Because they often do not relate well with most people and usually stay to themselves in result.

[stevENTj]

I went ahead and redid your results ... socionics.wsphere.com changed to socion.info a few weeks back.

http://socion.info/cgi-bin/beta3test...669295992.html

ooooh...that's what it was. thanks!

As for possibly being an ENTP, I'm just having a really hard time believing that. I was always very quiet in school, almost always have kept to myself even today, and even my parents commented that I hardly ever cried or made any noise when I was a baby. It's not that I don't extrovert with people because I don't get along and just learned to stay quiet. It's because extroverting is something I've just never done period.

I guess the flip of an ENTP is an INTJ, but I'm definitely not a J. I hate schedules and committments, I like to take my time making decisions and probe every possible opportunity or option, and when I'm put in very heavy "J" situations I can get very stressed out. Also, I'm always going back and challenging what I believe in whenever I see a strong counter-argument that goes against a belief or value of mine. I've changed religious beliefs, can definitely see myself changing political beliefs, and have never stuck with the same brand of car.

Looking back at my results though, a couple more questions...


In my type by attribute it suggests INFP. By just my functional preferences though it suggests ENTP since that's what seems to align with those the best. But in the type by unordered primary/secondary function I scored a 22 on ENTP-INTJ, ENFJ-INFP, and ENTJ-INTP. Is it normal to score dead even like that in 3 groupings? Does that mean I could be all of those equally? Also, since my T functions seem to be stronger, how did I still manage INFP in the type by attribute?

It seems like my results are conflicting and I'm just wondering how you reconcile? Which is supposed to be more accurate, type by attribute or type by function? Or are they both equally valid? And in all of the MBTI profiles I read, I have yet to find one that I feel is really 100% me. Could I truly just be an xNxP or INxP and one that can't really be defined accurately by MBTI?

I figured I would take the 320 question test to end any confusion, but it seems like it's just cauing more for me.

[Rocky]

Stev, it is possible that you are a Logical-intuitive Introvert (INTJ). LIIs can be streesed out dealing with Se matters; maybe this is where you are being confused. Also, don't pay much attention to MBTI descriptions because they confuse a lot of people.

[Angel von Himmel]

As for possibly being an ENTP, I'm just having a really hard time believing that. I was always very quiet in school, almost always have kept to myself even today, and even my parents commented that I hardly ever cried or made any noise when I was a baby. It's not that I don't extrovert with people because I don't get along and just learned to stay quiet. It's because extroverting is something I've just never done period

That is not typical ENTp behvaiour ... if he was ENTp, his parents would be telling him he was a strong willed and defiantly independant brat who was difficult to raise. Atleast, that is what my mother has always said about me when I was a baby.

I guess the flip of an ENTP is an INTJ, but I'm definitely not a J. I hate schedules and committments, I like to take my time making decisions and probe every possible opportunity or option, and when I'm put in very heavy "J" situations I can get very stressed out. Also, I'm always going back and challenging what I believe in whenever I see a strong counter-argument that goes against a belief or value of mine. I've changed religious beliefs, can definitely see myself changing political beliefs, and have never stuck with the same brand of car.

Hmmmm ... sounds to me like you just do not know what to believe [possible indication of the "why?" questions asked by someone who has as an activation function perhaps?]

In my type by attribute it suggests INFP. By just my functional preferences though it suggests ENTP since that's what seems to align with those the best. But in the type by unordered primary/secondary function I scored a 22 on ENTP-INTJ, ENFJ-INFP, and ENTJ-INTP. Is it normal to score dead even like that in 3 groupings? Does that mean I could be all of those equally? Also, since my T functions seem to be stronger, how did I still manage INFP in the type by attribute?

It is possible that your hidden agenda influenced you to make some choices that baised the results, I have seen hundreds of these test results, and that has been an obvious and consistent pattern in many of them.

I think it is possible that you have either , , , or as an agenda. However, I do not think you are INTj ... it just seems odd to me that an INTj would not allow their subconscious to influence them into choose alot of strong choices unless one consciously avoided the strong choices and purposefully chose the weak choices.

It seems like my results are conflicting and I'm just wondering how you reconcile? Which is supposed to be more accurate, type by attribute or type by function? Or are they both equally valid? And in all of the MBTI profiles I read, I have yet to find one that I feel is really 100% me. Could I truly just be an xNxP or INxP and one that can't really be defined accurately by MBTI?

You can not say that one is better than the other, but together they make up for the deficencies of each other and in result you can honestly use the data to remove bias and to actually get deep down into someone and their actual type.

Have you tried reading any of the type descriptions on the http:socion.info website?

I figured I would take the 320 question test to end any confusion, but it seems like it's just cauing more for me.

Well, nothing comes easy ... too many people take the easy root and go nowhere with it. People need to seek!

[Angel von Himmel]

SteveNFp ... does this description relate to you by any chance?

http://socion.info/INFP.html

[Creepy-pokeball]

NJs and SJs are very, very different. NJ's can have a very "P" feel about them due to their dislike of routine and otherworldliness from Ni.

[stevENTj]

That is not typical ENTp behvaiour ... if he was ENTp, his parents would be telling him he was a strong willed and defiantly independant brat who was difficult to raise. Atleast, that is what my mother has always said about me when I was a baby.

I don't even think I was a "bad" teenager. I knew my parents were looking out for me and I listened and didn't really "rebel" or anything.

Hmmmm ... sounds to me like you just do not know what to believe [possible indication of the "why?" questions asked by someone who has as an activation function perhaps?]

I know what I believe in and have very strong convictions about certain things. But I always love to hear a strong and intelligent argument from the other side. It gives you greater perspective and knowledge that will either reaffirm your beliefs, or cause you to maybe reconsider.

Don't know if there's any auto enthusiasts here, but take Japanese vs American engine building philosophy for example. I used to be a staunch Japanese car fan and hated pretty much anything American. But as I learned more and read strong pro-American arguments I realized I was wrong and that both philosophies have advantages and disadvantages over each other and that no single philosophy was "superior" to the other. And I wasn't upset about that, that I was "wrong". I was happy to have gained the perspective and broadened my knowledge. I have owned nothing but Japanese vehicles, but would now seriously consider an American vehicle and be able to have pride in it. I could not have said that 5 years ago.

It is possible that your hidden agenda influenced you to make some choices that baised the results, I have seen hundreds of these test results, and that has been an obvious and consistent pattern in many of them.

I think it is possible that you have either , , , or as an agenda. However, I do not think you are INTj ... it just seems odd to me that an INTj would not allow their subconscious to influence them into choose alot of strong choices unless one consciously avoided the strong choices and purposefully chose the weak choices.

Hmmm...this hidden agenda concept is fascinating and I haven't seen this idea mentioned elsewhere. I've been thinking about this all afternoon and I think I have to be an INTP with either a weaker T preference, or a stronger hidden agenda.

In more heated discussions I have a tendancy to come across way too harsh and upset people. But I would rather be right and hated, than wrong but loved (exceptions are with my wife, heh). I think Thinking is what the core of me is, but that I have the hidden agenda softening me up when I need to be. It's not the other way around with Feeling ruling me but a hidden agenda toughening me up when I need to be. All of my interests growing up, my education, my career path, and life decisions have all been more NT than NF. I do trust reason more than feelings in decisions. I like technical things, systems, am an engineer and have two degrees in engineering. I've never really had an interest in arts and humanities like many NFs seem to. Also, from Keirsey, I'm more utilitarian in tool usage like an NT than cooperative like an NF. And overall I find more that I relate to in NT profiles than NF, although I do still find a lot that I can identify with in NF profiles.

Some of the questions on tests that are T/F the core me seems to want to answer in favor of T, but an inner voice tells me to answer F. For example, "objective criticism is useful in any activity." I think I really want to answer that question as AGREE, but I know that in certain situations objectivity is more likely to offend or upset someone and might not be useful in accomplishing your goal, and the inner voice tells me to soften up and not be objective and bias myself a little. I think this is hidden agenda telling my core Thinking to soften up. It's rarely if ever the other way around.

Lately my Thinking side has been rather relaxed and disengaged, taking a break after 27 years of education. If my theory is correct, I think this relaxation of my T side has allowed my hidden agenda to take a much more active role and run the show to the point that I very much appear, act, and test as an INFP, or bring balance and make me an INxP.

Thoughts?

You can not say that one is better than the other, but together they make up for the deficencies of each other and in result you can honestly use the data to remove bias and to actually get deep down into someone and their actual type.

Have you tried reading any of the type descriptions on the http:socion.info website?

I see, I see. Did not realize that sub-functions could be biasing results. Fascinating!

I did read the INFP profile but it just doesn't seem to fit. There seemed to be a lot of "generic good" in there that I could agree with, but not a whole lot really resonated.

http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP.html

That one has a lot that rings true, except for when it starts to go on about INFPs not liking to deal with and often mis-using hard facts and logic. Not true AT ALL for me. From the same site, the INTP profile has tons that rings true with me, except for where it describes not understanding feelings and not being in tune with how people are feeling.

Overall though, I think NT profiles do fit me better.

Well, nothing comes easy ... too many people take the easy root and go nowhere with it. People need to seek!

Yes, true!

As they say, nothing worth achieving or accomplishing in life ever comes easy. Whether it's education, career, love, or even understanding yourself. If you want it, you've got to work hard at it. So how badly do you want it?

This might matter too, but I'm trying to learn about myself for the purpose of learning and understanding a new system which I think is more along what values an NT, rather than "identity seeking" as an NF. When something catches my interest, I have a desire to learn everything about it that I possibly can.


So I'm thinking I must be more an INTP with a weaker T preference and/or a stronger hidden agenda to the extent that I can appear and act as either pretty much.


Agree/Disagree? Thoughts?


And thanks for all the help so far...

[Hugo]

Take this test ans see what your result is.

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...?t=991&start=0

:wink:

[stevENTj]

Take this test ans see what your result is.

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...?t=991&start=0

:wink:

lol, 5-7-7: INTj T sub-type.


I did test as an INTj years ago, but that was a very different period of life for me when I was extremely stressed out between work, school, and still maintaining a personal life. And I don't think I'm really an INTj with an hidden agenda. INTj fit me at the time, but as time went on, and especially after that period I realized that it just wasn't me. I think INTp with hidden agenda fits me much better, along with most INTp profiles that I've read.

Depending on the test, what sort of mood I'm in, and how I reflect on a lot of the questions, I can come out as any sort of introverted intuitive.

[Hugo]

Why do you think you chose as your weakest function?

Please note that INTj's hidden agenda, , relates to the following:

Pleasant sensations, comfort, convenience, beauty, attractiveness, leisure, health, a good health, pleasure, enjoyment, sensitivity, discomfort, inconvenience, disharmony, unattractiveness, fatigue, stress, disease, poor health, suffering, pain.

[stevENTj]

Why do you think you chose as your weakest function?

err, my weakest function is . My is up the list a bit in strength, unless I'm reading something wrong in which case please advise.

Please note that INTj's hidden agenda, , relates to the following:

Pleasant sensations, comfort, convenience, beauty, attractiveness, leisure, health, a good health, pleasure, enjoyment, sensitivity, discomfort, inconvenience, disharmony, unattractiveness, fatigue, stress, disease, poor health, suffering, pain.

Hmm...this I can relate to a bit, but not as much as I can INTP with hidden agenda. Could you post what hidden agenda relates to also?

A friend of mine is most definitely an INTj, maybe not exactly a healthy one, but from what I know of them and reading this I know they have a good amount of hidden agenda influencing them. This definitely fits with them, but much less so with me.

[stevENTj]

From www.infj.org/infjness.html

Warm fuzzy teddybear theory

This is a theory devised by some INFJs on the "warm fuzzy teddybear" feel that surrounds some of the introverted intuitives. This is how others see the INs:

INFJ - cold on outside, warm and fuzzy on the inside
INFP - warm and fuzzy inside and out
INTP - warm on the outside, hard as a rock inside
INTJ - cold and hard inside and out

It's worth mentioning since these observations seem to carry merit, but of course you have to remember that this theory doesn't necessarily apply to all or even most INs.

In this "test" I think I fit most well with INTP also. I'm generally warm on the outside, but can be rather cold on the inside, but with hidden agenda warming me up inside to the point where I can act and feel INFP (warm inside and out). It's not the other way around where I'm naturally warm inside and out like an INFP but have a hidden agenda cooling me down inside.

Maybe an INTJ is cold inside and out because they have , not as a hidden agenda. There's nothing to "warm them up". This would fit with my friend who I know for a fact is an INTJ. INFj has the same hidden agenda and I know NFs are naturally warm inside. But in their case, maybe the hidden agenda alerts them to physical realities and cools them down outside, despite still being very warm inside.

Hmmm...

[stevENTj]

Also, is there a thread or write-up anywhere that explains what everything means in the X charts? Like Role, Polr, Duel Seeking, Realization, etc.? I can get a sense of it through context, but I'd like to understand it better.

thx

[stefana]

//

[Angel von Himmel]

I can not explain the ROLE and Dual-seeking functions so well, but think of the PoLR as a function that feels naked and needs to be clothed and fed. The Activation function comes along [hidden agenda] and attempts to cloth and feed the PoLR, but it does not always do a very good job of it. Sometimes the Activation function will compete and try to overcome the foundational function [the function that a person places 100% confidence in] and tries to make the person think that their own activation function is their area of confidence, when it is not.

This results in all sort of strange things occuring. Sensible types thinking they are intuitive types, thinkers thinking they are feelers, and vice versa.

People who are not very familiar with the functions and how they interact with each other can also often make the same mistake and believe a person's hidden agenda is their source of confidence. This could result in someone being mistyped and actually believing they are that type.

For example, I use to constantly doubt I was an ENTp and would wonder if I was some XNFX type. I also have alot of strange ENFj tendencies that make me often seem like I am an ENFj in behaviour, but it is all a feint. I am totally ENTp, nothing is changing that no matter how much my subconscious makes me want to think otherwise.

[Rocky]

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel....socionics.org

Click on the descriptions related to the functions, and you will get some good descrptions.

[Angel von Himmel]

Translation error on that website.

[stevENTj]

I think I must be an INTj in socionics and an INTp in MBTI. Read a bit on the J/P differences between the two with introverts. Don't quite fully understand it yet (needs to sink in some more) but at least in socionics, INTj seems to fit me better, and in MBTI INTp profiles seem to fit me better. When I've said I think I'm more an INTp previously, I was referring to MBTI but didn't realize it could be different with socionics.

But at least from what I see on the X charts, INTp still seems like it fits me better. Hmmm.... gonna have to do a little more reading/learning and reflection I guess.