Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: :Ni: Phemenology, and accepting/creative/release

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default :Ni: Phemenology, and accepting/creative/release

    I've reached some tentative conclusions about the ways and methods of

    Accepting :
    observes the individual patterns of wave interaction that constitute time; is capable of seperating wave interaction patterns from each other and perceiving their individual outcomes.

    Producing :
    operates by projecting wave patterns from the mind into the world. The projected pattern becomes entangled with other patterns and, although manifest as a constituent of evolution, is not apparent because it is indistinguishable from the mass of patterns constituting time.

    Release :
    Unentangles wave patterns manifested by producing , making them apparent and visible.


    I've also reached some general conclusions regarding the function of acceptance, creativity, and release.

    Accepting: internally delimmits boundaries between information sets; seperates clustered information into distinct mental units that may not be understood autonomously.

    Producing: injects information into the flow of all information of the same kind, but without clear boundaries. Although present, the injected information can neither be perceived nor understood.

    Release: Withdraws created information from the pool of all information of the same kind and condenses it into an autonomous unit of perception.

    EDIT: I confused "creative" with "producing". Fixed.

  2. #2
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    'Wave interactions' sounds like a concept from physics. How does it manifest in everyday affairs?

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Producing puts forward a timeline. It's out there, and people are aware of it, but that doesn't mean they're going to follow it. They may misunderstand it or disagree with it, and fail to adhere to it. (ask any ENTj or ENFj about this)

    Accepting isolates timelines and scrutenizes them for their viability. It may choose to operate in accordance with a timeline, but will likely not tell anyone about it. Remember, Jung suggested that the introverted intuitive was best served by keeping his knowledge of events to himself.

    Releasing exposes an existing trend in time. "Function A changes as time passes". People become aware of the individual timelines that others -- and forces -- are operating on without their knowing. ENTjs and ENFjs are often surprised when someone else puts into motion a timeline they themselves concieved, but were unable to effect. Similarly, ENTjs and ENFjs who can release at the behest of their base exercise great influence and power over history. They realize their dreams at their own volition, "triumph of the will". Individuals who release through a producer slave function find time bedeviling them; they release timelines without intending to.

  4. #4
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I see. That rhymes with what I have intuited before. If I understand this correctly a 'timeline' can not exist independantly of the events placed upon it, right? Hence why use of an accepting Ni function must always be accompanied by a producing extroverted judgment function.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    That's right. A timeline is just a sequence of events. They could be released into motion at any moment. But it is a definite sequence, a progression in which one event causes the other, causes the other in a definite order. It's not "cause and effect", but rather "cause, effect, cause in the context of effect, effect, etc."

    Like when Joy talks about the sequence of events that she engages in with the people at her workplace. "This is always how it happens, this leading into this, leading into this." That's not a produced timeline -- Joy has no control over it -- but rather the demonstration of Joy's releasal of the evolution of her conversations with others.

  6. #6
    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    6,633
    Mentioned
    159 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What type has releasing ?

  7. #7
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I take it that the occurence of 'causes within the context of effect' is what makes you see of 'timelines' as wave patterns... Since I have no background in physics it is hard for me to imagine how the two phenomena are connected. Is 'wave pattern' a metaphor or more like a 'rigid designator'?

    Also, do you have any thoughts on how differs from the other function that connects events spaced apart in time, ? This seems to be the key to understanding the internal/external dichotomy.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    What type has releasing ?
    No "type" has releasing because it's not a part of information metabolism. It's information exertion, the byproduct of the metabolism itself. Everyone has it, although the question of how it is used is a matter of the person's information exertion type.

    Put it this way: Jesus was an INFj, Einstein was an ENTp. But we question their types because their contributions were so distinct from the norm. The reason for the deviations was due to the relationship of their contributions to their information metabolism. We expect a person to contribute what they think, feel, here, sense, etc. The greater the contrast between how a person thinks and what they contribute, the greater a deviation the person seems to be.

    Example: Jefferson contributed great things to politics, yet he was an INTj. His work was in the mode of his conflictor and assisted his quasi-identical. (see Benjamin Franklin) His talents lied in politics, which is an usual enterprise for INTjs to concern themselves with. What are we to think about INTjs that do? Isn't that the domain of ESFp? What do we make of a person who sets their natural analytic skills toward the political motivation of large groups of people?

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,969
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Producing puts forward a timeline. It's out there, and people are aware of it, but that doesn't mean they're going to follow it. They may misunderstand it or disagree with it, and fail to adhere to it. (ask any ENTj or ENFj about this)

    Accepting isolates timelines and scrutenizes them for their viability. It may choose to operate in accordance with a timeline, but will likely not tell anyone about it. Remember, Jung suggested that the introverted intuitive was best served by keeping his knowledge of events to himself.

    Releasing exposes an existing trend in time. "Function A changes as time passes". People become aware of the individual timelines that others -- and forces -- are operating on without their knowing. ENTjs and ENFjs are often surprised when someone else puts into motion a timeline they themselves concieved, but were unable to effect. Similarly, ENTjs and ENFjs who can release at the behest of their base exercise great influence and power over history. They realize their dreams at their own volition, "triumph of the will". Individuals who release through a producer slave function find time bedeviling them; they release timelines without intending to.
    Ni is not all about timelines, project management, etc.; that's a misconception. Scrutinizing something for its viability is a judging operation.

    How about this: First of all:
    N is the imagination of possible manifestations of the opposing S.
    Ni is the imagination (through time, sequence, or chain of events) of possible states of global, public reality (Se, S statics).
    Ne is the imagination of possible different paths of personal reality dynamics (Si, S dynamics).

    In either case, N involves the forming of mental models or conceptions of possibilities that in no way have anything to do with scrutinizing or deciding anything.

    Accepting N uses this imagination to produce structure and decisions.
    Creative N proceeds from structure and decisions to form the appropriate mental model.

    TeNi takes decisions about what structures are most directly appropriate for specific uses and forms a mental model of how things should play out. It could be a timeline, but not necessarily. TeNi do more than manage timelines.

    NiTe takes imaginations and models of how things work to formulate more formalized appropriate strategies and approaches. It rarely involves project management; most ILIs would probably find it boring to spend much time scrutinizing and critiquing project timelines such as the ones one might print out of MSProject.

  10. #10
    BLauritson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    979
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    How about this: First of all:
    N is the imagination of possible manifestations of the opposing S.
    Ni is the imagination (through time, sequence, or chain of events) of possible states of global, public reality (Se, S statics).
    Ne is the imagination of possible different paths of personal reality dynamics (Si, S dynamics).
    I once read somewhere that intuition was generally believed to be linked with imagination, and just yesterday I was wondering what links the two when intuition is always talked about as being linked with patterns and timelines and stuff like that. But based on my limited understanding of the functions, that does actually make sense IMO.
    ILI (Indescribable Lovemaking Inc.)
    5w4 so/sx

    "IP temperament! Because today's concerns are tomorrow's indifferences!"

    Lord Fnorgle's Domain - A slowly growing collection of music, poetry and literature.
    Stickam music performances

  11. #11
    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    6,633
    Mentioned
    159 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    What type has releasing ?
    No "type" has releasing because it's not a part of information metabolism. It's information exertion, the byproduct of the metabolism itself. Everyone has it, although the question of how it is used is a matter of the person's information exertion type.

    Put it this way: Jesus was an INFj, Einstein was an ENTp. But we question their types because their contributions were so distinct from the norm. The reason for the deviations was due to the relationship of their contributions to their information metabolism. We expect a person to contribute what they think, feel, here, sense, etc. The greater the contrast between how a person thinks and what they contribute, the greater a deviation the person seems to be.

    Example: Jefferson contributed great things to politics, yet he was an INTj. His work was in the mode of his conflictor and assisted his quasi-identical. (see Benjamin Franklin) His talents lied in politics, which is an usual enterprise for INTjs to concern themselves with. What are we to think about INTjs that do? Isn't that the domain of ESFp? What do we make of a person who sets their natural analytic skills toward the political motivation of large groups of people?
    I finally understand.

    I respect your motives, tc, and it will be a great day when personality type can explain so much. Keep working at it.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    ...forms a mental model of how things should play out...
    That's what I meant by timeline: event sequences that could manifest at any moment, but once they begin, will rigorously adhere to the outlined sequence.

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is my tentative model for . I've tried to model how it happens in the brain as best I can... perhaps with limited success...?


    Notes on
    is the perception of energetic limits within fields and the rates of
    approach to those limits. It is the perception of lengths of time and of time
    itself. Because time itself is an intangible quality, these rates of change
    are themselves intangible; they are usually represented in thought by symbolic
    qualities. Through the use of one may perceive the existence of field
    energy limits, the surpassal of which entails a change in the nature of their
    respective fields. It is not the nature of to deduce the how or why
    of the consequences of this approach, only the approach itself. However, more
    than one field may be considered at a time. This confluence of approaches
    can be experienced as a possible future. A metabolized future may not be
    immediately realized, however, because it cannot set limits of its own accord;
    only expenditure may reset existing energetic limits.

    How is experienced phenomenologically? The reproduction of fields in the
    mind, due to a passive reproduction system accompanied by relevant recall,
    allows the fields to process alongside each other at various rates of
    expansion. Space is limited: the imposition of a low limit to the expansion
    of one field allows higher limits for others, or the consideration of more
    fields. Therefore there exists a correlation between the number of fields
    considered and the span of observance of their evolution. The greater the
    complexity of the future perceived, the lower the span of one's observation
    of it. Therefore prefers simple models for long term observations, and
    complex models for short-term forecasts.

    models a field of information elements of a definite kind. Having
    modeled these elements, a simulation is undertaken by to observe their
    evolution. If experienced as a slave, observes the final outcome of the
    evolution. If experienced as a master, observes distinct points in the
    evolution itself. These points together constitute a line of time.



    Base Master:
    a sequence of events is observed as a constituent process of the flow of time.

    Base Slave:
    a sequence of events is released from the flow of time as an independent motive force independent of other event sequences.

    Creative Master:
    a sequence of events is created in the context of the base slave function's influence, and injected into the flow of time.


    Suggestive Master:
    a sequence of events is apparent, however the means of its origin are uncertain.


    Personal Knowledge Master:
    a sequence of events is observed within the flow of imaginary time.

    Personal Knowledge Slave:
    an internal field dynamic is activated at the behest of the personal knowledge
    master, creating within it an imagined timeline. There may be argument against
    its relevance to objective time.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ...Let me explain.

    By imaginary time, I am referring to a closed space of information; in a sense, a political resevour of common ideas. The idea of crosstypes is itself a form of this information: at any moment I felt doubtful of the theory due to lack of insight into its fundamental structure, there would be others here who would begin championing the concept. The idea of crosstypes is a new interpretation of already existing information; it is therefore at the present time a liberalized thought process, and native to participants in the liberal idiosyncracy.

    In the case of imaginary time, we speak of a sequence of events that is believed plausible -- indeed, existant -- within the confines of an idiosyncratic stream of thought. Such fantasies may incarnate as novels, or as theories of time and space that are not well understood. String theory itself may be an example: certainly there exist some skeptics that eleven dimensions exist just because an equation says so. It has not yet been proven, and until it is string theory will remain in imaginary space, a feature of imaginary time.

    The gateways to these subjective, "members-only" information streams are the functions of personal knowledge. It is by personal knowledge that we identify imaginary information, common beliefs and perceptions of truth that we know are true in our hearts, but are received with either ambivalence or skepticism by those not privy to our subjective stream. The master function of personal knowledge extracts information from the pool of ideology; the slave function sets it to work as a motive animating force within our hearts. By the function of determination we reconcile our ideological understanding with that of the objective, consensus world: we inject our beliefs and truths into the pool of objective understanding, and transform them into something others not privy to our private resevours can use. The determination master integrates the reconciled, complete product into the flow of objective information, where it remains accessible to those individuals who possess the function appropriate to the information as their base master.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •