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    Default Corporate Structure & Socionics

    The name of this particular breakdown of the 16 types eludes me at the moment, but it breaks the 16 types into four groupings as follows...

    Leaders - ESFj/ESTp/ESFp/ESTj
    Jokers (this must be a bad russian translation, but that's the term that was used) - ENTp/ENFj/ENTj/ENFp
    Diplomats - ISFp/ISTj/ISFj/ISTp
    Gurus - INTj/INFp/INTp/INFj

    There is then a breakdown of the sixteen types into four groupings, the names of two elude me...

    Constructors - INTj/ISTj/ENTj/ESTj
    Re-constructors - ENTp/ESTp/INTp/ISTp
    Guardians - ESFj/ENFj/ISFj/INFj
    (Can't remember this one, I believe it was socials or something to that effect) - ISFp/INFp/ESFp/ENFp

    So...I was reading Warren Buffett's annual letter to shareholders of Berkshire Hathaway, which, if you've never read one, is inspiring, and I got to thinking about the latter groupings and corporate governance. In my experience (I've worked for two fortune 500 banks), the following positions in the executive leadership are the most important (not necessarily in this order) and common...CEO (Chief Executive Officer), CFO (Chief Financial Officer), COO (Chief Operating Officer), and General Counsel. Here's my take on the ideal socionics type for each position...

    CEO - ESTj...The johnny gladhander figure-head of the organization who's good at giving orders and is usually respected for his integrity and work ethic. Willingly takes advice on big picture issues and is a master of process. Has a competetive spirit, but not a conquering one.

    CFO - ENTj...excellent with money, and willing to risk capital in the name of economic growth in a planned and processed way. Can see and manipulate short term market trends allowing for an advantage over non- Ni types in the same industry. Is a visionary in this regard, but needs to be monitored to ensure that big picture goals (Ne) are not being sacrificed in the name of short term gain.

    COO - ISTj...a master of hierarchy and a hard-ass. Can understand easily how each department in the organization functions and how they relate to one another. Hard worker, but also able to be forcefully diplomatic when necessary to create co-operation between different departments. Not overly cerebral and able to deal with the mundane operations necessary to the day to day operation of a company.

    General Counsel - INTj...always focused on the big picture and an acute legal mind able to evaluate quickly the risk-reward ratio of any business decision from multiple perspective objectively. Able to predict the long term results of actions better than the other three, and therefore an important advisor to the CEO concerning the vision of the company and a balance to the CFO's shorter term focus. Financial gain is secondary to the visions and values of the company for an INTj, and therefore he is unlikely to sacrifice the long-term well-being of a company in the name of a quick profit.

    This will inevitably rub some irrational types the wrong way I'm sure, but most that I know function better independently, outside of the hierarchy.

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    Default Re: Corporate Structure & Socionics

    Well there are of course opinions which claim that this kind of talent is more individual related than it is type related. Hard to tell. Anyways Steve Balmer might be irrational. Donald Trump is a bit controversial figure but often claimed irrational. Warren Buffet is definately irrational. Well I'm not sure what that proves.

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    You think Warren Buffett is an irrational type? What about him makes you think that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFVB
    You think Warren Buffett is an irrational type? What about him makes you think that?
    Rick has him typed as INTp at socionics.us. He looks irrational to me from pics so I had no reason to contest that typing. I really don't know anything about the guy though except that he can apparently invest money well so perhaps "definately" was too strongly put What rational type he could be then?

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    To be honest, I didn't have an opinion on him until I read his letter to shareholders and did a little background research. When I read the writings of INTps, I generally have difficulty following the train of thought. Reading Warren Buffett's writing is like reading my own stylistically (except infinitely more intelligent) and he is also someone who is EXTREMELY decisive. He boasts about making deals in five minutes, and is VERY much a planner and interested in hierarchy. However, he is not a task master and leaves his manager alone, which an INTp would be unlikely to do. I see an INTj, and if we're using subtypes, an intuitive one.

    A quote from a Salon.com article

    "Buffett says he won't invest in a company unless he can "see" it, unless he can imagine what its balance sheet might look like in a decade or two -- a shockingly long view, especially at a time when many investors hold stocks for just days, or even minutes, at a time."

    I would suggest, it's WELL worth the time, that you read a few of these letters. While I can't say INTj for sure, he definitely comes across as an Ne thinker, as opposed to an Ni one.

    http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html

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    this might be more relevant:

    http://www.socionics.us/socioniko/en/


    by Gulenko

    Quote

    2. The Volitional Triad.

    The consolidating factor of this group is the struggle for power and order. In its representatives we recognize similar characters of various epochs of revolutions and counter-revolutions, coups d’etat and systematic armed struggle. This triad cannot consolidate without an enemy image.
    1. INSPECTOR (logical-sensory introvert)

    He possesses technocratic style of thinking combined with the stable-balanced temperament. He is organized and predictable; his actions organically cannot be spontaneous, without any fixed long-term program.

    The Inspector is not much efficient as a private entrepreneur due to his static thinking and inflexible behavior; however, he is optimal as a manager or an official. He is excellent in managing routine chores. Slowly but steadily he moves upwards the social ladder. This type of people forms the backbone of state machinery of any regime.

    In movies this character is often represented as a severe and inflexible struggler for justice (Clint Eastwood, Alain Delon, Steven Seagal), which by its appearance reminds a cowboy from the Camel commercials. Women admire men of this type who demonstrate endurance before vital problems.
    2. GAMBLER (ethical-intuitive extravert)

    From the childhood he is prone to intellectualism, can speak eloquently and intelligently. Using his voice intonations and facial expressions, he makes strong emotional impression on other people, from the most favorable to nauseous. This type is very widespread, and therefore the struggle between its separate representatives is especially acute.

    Nature has painted this character with black and white paints. It is often represented by extremities (accentuations): demonstrative, hysteroid, pedantic and “sticking”. He is full of controversies with himself.

    This type seems to be the main supplier of “over-passionate” people that play significant role in social conflicts that tend to emotional super-tension and even beneficence for the sake of a certain great idea. It is represented by many religious and charismatic leaders (from Trotsky and Hitler to Che Guevara).
    3. LEGIONNAIRE (sensory-logical extravert)

    This is a decisive person not reluctant to exert volitional, even physical pressure on other people when “situation requires such actions”. He seems to be the best “designed” for force competition. The more obstacles he meets, the more decisive and resolute he feels and the more active he moves forward.

    Defense is not his style. He tries to find at once the opponent’s vulnerable point by offensive reconnaissance. When his frontal attack fails, he begins to attack from the flanks or rear, often using third persons for his goals.

    People of this type actually represent the image of post-Soviet large business. The endless fight for the center improves their grip, flexibility and calculating mind. Management of large material and people resources is a very important vital stimulus for them (Hillary Clinton, George Patton, Lee Iacocca, Napoleon Bonaparte).



    When your collective consists mostly of sociotypes of this triad, it will inevitably full of tension and conflicts. However, these conflicts represent a great advantage: being concentrated in one decisive blow (in case of presence of an external enemy), they result in great achievements.

    Such a team, having a strong and resolute leader, is capable of winning all possible competitors. However, the more successes it achieves, the stronger is the bitterness of secession and hostility between former confederates. The only solution of such situation known from the history is to permanently replace potentially dangerous people with their younger type-mates.
    3. The Pragmatic Triad.

    The consolidating factor of this triad is the pragmatic profit. The principles of pragmatism and instrumentalism, as we know, are cornerstones of the American national philosophy. Therefore we can also call this triad “the American triad”. Let us meet its representatives.
    1. POLITICIAN (sensory-ethical extravert)

    The person of this type is sociable, sets up his sail to every wind, is very flexible in his actions. He watches distribution of material benefits and knows where his interests lie. He often picks up both important people and attractive ones.

    He cannot long focus on certain activity. To avoid boredom, he needs periodical switching from one type of activity to a different.

    Capable of balancing between interests of opposite parties, he is a master of negotiations and bargaining. He is a master of boarding and tacking, however, only between big groups of people. To show all his talents, such persons needs large scales (Jacques Chirac, Michael Gorbachev, Lech Walesa, Silvio Berlusconi).
    2. CRITIC (intuitive-logical introvert)

    People of this type are cautious, skeptical, thrifty. Before starting a new work, he evaluates its expediency and profitability (not just financial). He is capable of waiting, meanwhile accumulating additional information.

    He watches development of events, noticing meanwhile details and even slightest trends. Usually he makes impression of a wise and longsighted person. His irony and critical remarks can chill even the most ardent enthusiast.

    Such persons are often good financiers or bankers, know the ropes on the stock or capital market. They are born diplomats, masters of reconciling of interests of opposite parties or creating valid counterweights (Colin Powell).
    3. ENTREPRENEUR (logical-intuitive extravert)

    This is a snappy, dynamic, very easy-going person. Al his life reminds a permanent steeplechase. He bravely proposes business initiatives and tries really hard to implement them.

    He loves life, likes humor in all its manifestations. Vital stresses only harden him, make him more decisive and self-confident. He is rather a lonely hero than a team player.

    He is a great master of combinations, proposes brave multistage commercial schemes. He is always among those who uses newest technologies and organizational forms. The secret of his business success is not in force but in his precipitance (Bill Gates, John Kennedy, Yuliya Tymoshenko).



    The confrontation between the ideologies of organized force and free pragmatism is characteristic for all parts of the world. However, America has already long ago recognized the priority of pragmatism (after the victory of the North states in 1865), while the Orient, having ancient despotic traditions, recognizes the priority of organized force. Only Slavic countries of the former USSR did not make their choice yet. They are tired of one and a half centuries of the tug-of-war between democracy and authoritarianism.

    It may sound strange from the standpoint of the post-Soviet mentality, but these two forces can even cooperate. China is a good example of an alliance between the two triads, based on Deng Xiaoping’s principle “one country, two systems”: the Lions (W.Pareto’s term) hold the political power, while the Foxes rule the economic life. The Chinese reformer has realized the idea of coexistence of the opposite poles characteristic for the Dao philosophy of one and a half thousand years.

    Such trends exist both globally and locally; a “small China” may be found in a rivaling company that rapidly conquers central positions on the market. However, long-term alliance between the volitional and the pragmatic triads seems impossible to me in the conditions of our Eurasian mentality.

    In this way, your business may be much improved when communication will be correctly organized and systematically coordinated. Learn to apply the law of center and periphery on practice – of course, when you are psychologically mature for this approach.
    4. Diagnostic Issues

    All major events in the world are determined by actions of the above six (three plus three) sociotypes. It was long ago, and it is now. Other communicative styles are peripheral: only for short periods their representatives meddle into the dramatic battle of giants and then retreat again. The “peripheral” stimuli, such as human relations, curiosity, adherence to non-ideological and non-pragmatic values leave no chances for staying in the center for a long time.

    When “peripheral” types prevail in your office (department), it will be non-conflicting and comfortable, with a good psychological atmosphere, but not competitive. The idea of composing a team by one half from the central types, and by one half from peripheral ones? Alas, such mechanical approach does not solve the problem. The fifty-fifty combination of central and peripheral values results in uncertainty, bouncing from one pole to a different, and finally to loss of control.

    /quote
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Jim,

    I don't even buy that for a second. The socion, key to A. Augusta's theory, is inherently balanced, meaning that no one (or six types) can dominate the events of human society, and that all values of each quadra balance the others. Gulenko's off the reservation on this one, completely negating A. Augusta's theories. I've seen Gulenko typed as an INTj, my feeling is that he's probably more an ISTj, hence his dependence on a sensory biased tool for evaluating personality. Sergei Ganin, an ESTp, loves his descriptions, and while interesting, are very shallow in most respects. To trivialize the contributions of other quadras to "major" events would mean that the French Revolution, American Revolution, Marxist Revolutions (which all stemmed from perversions of the original alpha quadra political theories) were not major events, as I've never seen Jefferson or Robespierre typed as anything other than INTjs and Marx as anything other than an ENTp. Yes, perhaps beta and gamma quadras spill more blood in the events that they cause (Marxist revolutions, a favorite of the beta quadra, were all pretty bloody), but that hardly qualifies them as being more "major" (read important) than others.

    If one sticks to the theory that all ideas must move through each quadra to reach full development, then his theory is bullshit because it implies that it moves into one and stays there. The US mentality, which he refers to, is currenty in the greedy self-interested Ayn Rand stage (as evidenced by Wall St. bonuses this year), but people are getting sick of that, and socialism is anything but a gamma quadra invention or desire, and unfortunately, that's the inevitable conclusion of any society before its collapse.

    Thanks for posting the article. Just goes to show that summarizing the history of humanity through socionics is probably best left to those with Ne as a strength, not a weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFVB
    "Buffett says he won't invest in a company unless he can "see" it, unless he can imagine what its balance sheet might look like in a decade or two -- a shockingly long view, especially at a time when many investors hold stocks for just days, or even minutes, at a time."
    This sounds like to me. Isn't this pretty much exactly what is about? And what INTps are famous for? INTjs of course have strongish too but they generally rely more on and are interested in development of concepts and ideas instead of strategic forecasting in a business setting. A professional investor would way more likely be an INTp than INTj. Gamma quadra is more typically interested in getting rich where Alpha quadra is generally critical of overly mercantilistic views and cannot find fulfillment only from making a lot of money. I doubt that the life of a professional investor would be fulfilling to most INTjs but it would to most INTps.

    I will check that letter a bit later when I have more time.

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    Default Re: Corporate Structure & Socionics

    Quote Originally Posted by SFVB
    Jokers (this must be a bad russian translation, but that's the term that was used) - ENTp/ENFj/ENTj/ENFp
    For sure generally I pertain to this kind of group. Ignore the leaders and make fun of them!
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    A friend of mine suggested a cool way to do it would be having quadra-based departments based on the Evolution of Idea progression. Alpha would be R&D, definitely. I'm not sure about the rest. Beta - marketing? Gamma/Delta - finance/efficiency/engineering? An ENTj, ESTj, ISTj, and INTj might work well in their respective isolated positions, but when they have to work in tandem (as I assume CEOs etc. do), the plan doesn't seem so good. Separation by quadras would probably be best implemented on the level of small groups, and not necessarily as a plan for the whole company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by SFVB
    "Buffett says he won't invest in a company unless he can "see" it, unless he can imagine what its balance sheet might look like in a decade or two -- a shockingly long view, especially at a time when many investors hold stocks for just days, or even minutes, at a time."
    This sounds like to me. Isn't this pretty much exactly what is about? And what INTps are famous for? INTjs of course have strongish too but they generally rely more on and are interested in development of concepts and ideas instead of strategic forecasting in a business setting. A professional investor would way more likely be an INTp than INTj. Gamma quadra is more typically interested in getting rich where Alpha quadra is generally critical of overly mercantilistic views and cannot find fulfillment only from making a lot of money. I doubt that the life of a professional investor would be fulfilling to most INTjs but it would to most INTps.

    I will check that letter a bit later when I have more time.
    I disagree in this respect...I work in finance and I enjoy the strategic elements of planning and the advisory aspects of it which is essentially analysis. What I hate is the short term views of many in my industry that think no more than 1 quarter ahead. I HATE the stock market and the manipulation that goes on, and I believe in regulation of those that seek to profit from the pain and suffering of others. However...I believe starting a business, running it, employing people, and making money is an essential part of our society, and I, at some point, would like to be involved in an enterprise that seeks to create wealth and prosperity. I do not believe in communism, as despite my inferior Se, I believe that creating the appearance of equality is just as bad as not having it at all, as it makes people complacent and lazy. People should have work at equality, it shouldn't simply be created out of thin air. Free markets allow for the legitimate creation of equality, but...as with anything, they require regulation to ensure that they do not become too one-sided and that the gamma investors with the six month time frame do not destroy the economy in the long run as they almost did in the 20s, affecting all those who do not value financial wealth in the same way.

    If you read Warren Buffett's shareholder letters he says many things that are AGAINST gamma values, such as not only looking at the bottom-line when evaluating a business. He is, anything but greedy, which is apparent in is philanthropic activities, and the salary he has paid himself for quite some time ($100,000/year). He is keeping the Buffalo News, a barely profitable newspaper he owns running because of his realization of the importance of local newspapers. That's not to say he won't at some point sell it to someone who will keep it running for humanitarian reasons, but he is not doing what many corporate CEOs would be tempted to do in order to fatten the bottom-line. He jokes that he is never assigned to compensation committees on the boards of which he is a member because he doesn't believe CEOs are worth as much as many of them are paid. He is also a democrat. Maybe the reason he is so unique is that his values and vision are contrary to the values of the majority in the finance and business world, which is why he's able to avoid many of the pitfalls of his peers, and, be referred to as "the oracle of Omaha."

    I should also add that INTj's predictive abilities are superior long term than those of Ni types, which are superior in short term time frames. Ne allows for the synthesis of many different intuitive perceptions into a clear picture of the state of the economy or the political situation as a whole, 5, 10, 20 years out. This allows them to see things much further down the road than Ni types, who are limited to shorter time spans. I, for instance, work in banking. I have been predicting, for the last 2 years, that there would be a huge problem in the mortgage industry due to the underwriting practices of lenders. This is now happening in the sub-prime market, but is also spreading into what is called the Alt-A market as well, it will continue. Investors, up to a few months ago, were buying up crappy sub-prime stocks, unaware of the realities of the market, because they didn't understand the industry. Now, if they bought New Century Financial, Accredited Home Lenders, even Countrywide, they were clobbered. A fundamental tenant of Warren Buffett's investment strategy is that he does NOT invest in businesses that he does not understand...no technology he says, cause he won't understand it. Recently he made some fairly amusing comments about the sub-prime industry which indicated he saw it coming. I'm sure he did. Understanding the fundamental nature of a business, rather than the simple technical aspects of it, is a strategy an INTj or ENTp would invest by, not an INTp or ENTj. INTps, in my experience, love technical analysis, which may be great for day trading, but is worthless over a long time span. They do not see the planet for the forests, excuse the analogy. Anyway, his letters are worth reading. I think you would see what I'm talking about.

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    I haven't had time to read the letter...I was just wondering what is your opinion of another investor: George Soros

    He is typed ENTp at socionics.us.

    That is another potential irrational but also a potential Alpha in the investment business.

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    XoX,

    Reading a few biographies of Mr. Soros, it appears to me that he is an ENTj. Here's one of the ones I read...

    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/i....asp?indid=977

    Seems to be pretty self-interested and arrogant, which is more of an ENTj or INTp trait than an ENTp one. ENTjs love control and so does Soros. I will also add, that nothing he does seems particularly visionary to me as most of his activities involve buying and selling people and businesses to push along his own world view (which is a socialist one, hardly unique), for better or for worse. I will also add that his level of activity is very high, something that ENTps are rarely accused of. I would say that is the biggest difference between Buffett and Soros...Buffett, buy his own admission, does not like to work hard, and you don't see him actively going out and trying to make a name for himself as a philanthropist (despite his hugely generous gifts), which is not the case with Soros who loves making his mark in this capacity and being very vocal politically.

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    General Counsel - INTj...always focused on the big picture and an acute legal mind able to evaluate quickly the risk-reward ratio of any business decision from multiple perspective objectively. Able to predict the long term results of actions better than the other three, and therefore an important advisor to the CEO concerning the vision of the company and a balance to the CFO's shorter term focus. Financial gain is secondary to the visions and values of the company for an INTj, and therefore he is unlikely to sacrifice the long-term well-being of a company in the name of a quick profit.
    I could do that.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    General Counsel - INTj...always focused on the big picture and an acute legal mind able to evaluate quickly the risk-reward ratio of any business decision from multiple perspective objectively. Able to predict the long term results of actions better than the other three, and therefore an important advisor to the CEO concerning the vision of the company and a balance to the CFO's shorter term focus. Financial gain is secondary to the visions and values of the company for an INTj, and therefore he is unlikely to sacrifice the long-term well-being of a company in the name of a quick profit.
    I could do that.
    But do you want to do that? And are you not an accountant-in-training?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    General Counsel - INTj...always focused on the big picture and an acute legal mind able to evaluate quickly the risk-reward ratio of any business decision from multiple perspective objectively. Able to predict the long term results of actions better than the other three, and therefore an important advisor to the CEO concerning the vision of the company and a balance to the CFO's shorter term focus. Financial gain is secondary to the visions and values of the company for an INTj, and therefore he is unlikely to sacrifice the long-term well-being of a company in the name of a quick profit.
    I could do that.
    But do you want to do that? And are you not an accountant-in-training?
    Yes, I intend to do that everywhere I go, regardless of position.
    I was in accounting, but I am no longer doing that. I could go back to it still if I wanted to.


    I realized last night that I want to be involved in the decision making process in some way, wherever I go.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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