INTj/ESFj duality (someone help me understand this)

[Joy]

There's this ESFj I know... my employer. He doesn't want to give me small, specific tasks to accomplish at specific times and manage the overall plans for the projects himself... he wants to give me projects that I figure out the steps for, and their timing. Okay, fine. Great, actually. But then he, without realizing it, messes up my plans and interferes with steps. Then he doesn't understand why I'm not actually accomplishing much.

He seems to think I can constantly alter plans without any consequence. He doesn't seem to understand that it takes longer to accomplish anything when he's sending me in a different direction every few days. He comes up with new projects (large projects) for me to do while I'm in the middle of another couple of large projects for him, as if he has no concept of the time and effort it will take to do them or how they'll mess up the sequence of events and timing of the other projects. He just casually says to do it as if it's the easiest and simplest thing in the world.

Sometimes I wonder how it's possible that he's a rational type because of this (it seems that if I were less thrown off by having my plans and timing changed things could run more smoothly?)... but when I read the ESFj/INTj duality description, it makes a bit more sense. The lazy ass INTj doesn't want to do anything and therefore questions the ESFj's many projects and his inefficient expenditure of time and effort. :wink: Seriously though...

When an ESFj says "Let's do this," I say, "Okay, let's do it" and make plans on how to get it done.

When an ESFj says "Let's do this," an INTj says... "Do we have to?"

Would an INTj like to expand on this (or contest it) and give me some pointers on how to work more effectively with an ESFj? I was with an INTj for like 4 years, but when I imagine dealing with the ESFj by modeling the INTj's behavior... I can't imagine how anything would ever get accomplished.

To be clear, he's great, overall. Very kind, hardworking, extremely bright, good at what he does... ect... I took the position with him because I could tell that he wanted to accomplish things and make his company grow significantly, and this inefficient interaction is the only thing slowing it down. We could have accomplished a lot more in these two years if we had a better system of working together set up, or if we communicated better perhaps? Any suggestions? I remember UPD suggesting in the past that I have weekly meetings where goals and time tables are laid out clearly, but the ESFj is very busy... always running around doing something... so this may be a lot to ask, especially during the busy season. And I'm not sure it would change much anyways, to be honest.

[Ms. Kensington]

I have not worked *with* an ESFj, but I could talk about what I think would get through to an ESFj. It could be that there is not as developed an understanding of the time it takes to do projects. But I think the way to get an ESFj to think about the weight of what he's suggesting project wise would be to ask if it really fits logically with what his overarching goal is. At least that is probably what I would do if I was working with one, and part of my job would be to give such advice. It seems you really collaborate a lot with him since your office seems to have a small staff. The way to get an ESFj to think about the demands it makes on you is to take a more emotional approach.... I don't really have much experience with this though. In general it is hard for me to say something liek "this is too much work" but I think making a statement on your levels of comfort being threatened would be useful. I think something that could also work striking the first method is just to tell him that it's not logical to launch project B in the middle of project A... though I'm sure you've had these kinds of conversations with him before. Perhaps a word change or two is all that is needed to get through to him.

[UDP]

I've no idea.
When I find out I'll let you know,

I am also in a situation with an ESE boss. He seemed most responsive to when I used it. We were good at coming up with ideas together, but the alpha nature of having no idea how to put them into action was getting frustrating. He'd eventually panic and do something himself, usually completely unnecessary, being anal about a specific detail, and then berating himself for his troubles.

I kept suggesting that we try to plan and map out the end result, rather than just 'thinking about what were were going to do'. It was like he was afraid to draw things out, or plan things. Which was really odd. It was like he was afraid. Or just completely uncertain.

He is a hardworker and good at communicating to others, doing presentations. But the mechanical aspects of setting up and planning a display, he seemed surprisingly bad at. I would think an ESE would be better at beautifying things, but I suppose it was because it was an intuitive thing, and we were dealing with it before it was right in front of him. I suppose that makes sense, as that would be my area of expertise, and he would be much better at what was directly in front of him.

I see us as drastically unprepared, and I do not like figuring everything out on the spot, which he seems to have a tendency to do.


If I ever figure out the right way to communicate how to be prepared beforehand for the ESE who in a boss/supervisor position, I will let you know.
Hopefully it will come to me


As for a relationship:


One ESE/LII relationship involved the ESE consulting the LII about EVERYTHING... it may have been an extreme example, but I think it is the matter of the ESE trusting the person. The more an ESE can trust someone the more they will seek their input, and of course the more it will affect their Fe roles -- who they want to 'make happy', etc.

It is difficult as I do not know if my ESE boss respects me enough yet. He slowly has begun asking me more and more, so perhaps it is a process in that way, but at the same time it is odd as he is the boss and the president, and he has put so much time and energy into things - no one, including myself, wants to take away from what he has done for the organization.


I would still push for that meeting Joy. Or try to show up early before work, even if just for 10 or 15 minutes, and talk through priorities and the main objectives you want to accomplish. Consider limiting the objectives to 3. The first 3 at least, or the 3 most important. Break things down as much as possible. Break things down as much as possible... I will try to use that at the next meeting and see if it works as much as I hope it will......

[UDP]

Some LIIs are very lazy, and in fact will say "uhhh... I don't want to do that, do we have to?"

But to me that is being a lazy-ass.

It is really a matter of necessity and priority, how important and relevant is this? Being able to communicate that properly (hint - maybe try asking the ESE ahead of time what they really want from the project) is what the ESE wants from Ti dual seeking.


...what I am going to try to do is use Ti as much as possible next time. I think there are multiple ESEs in the group, and it is getting to the point where people have clearly demonstrated inefficiencies, so I have been and will continue to be more forward with my analysis

[oyburger]

Ehh, I wish I could help. I work with an ESFj but we're in completely different departments, so she never gives me orders. I'm closer to her than anyone else in the building though, unsuprisingly.
I think if I was in your situation (which would drive me nuts btw) I'd tell the ESFj that I needed to finish what I'd already started first before I take on anything new, or when the new assignments came I'd ask for a prioritization. If I could get a list of deadlines, I'd be in heaven and I'd make that quite clear.

[UDP]

YES! good point

EXPRESS to the ESFj what would make you happy, what you need to 'be happy and do well', etc.
That might help... you know how they like doing things to make people happy.


.....
!

Actually, I did that last night, now that I think of it, and it worked. I expressed that "I like to have things planned out", and I was assertive in doing it a little bit, and that was probably the clearest things were. I'll try to 'present my needs' more often, I suppose. In the right way of course.

[SFVB]

An INTj's solution for this is to simply ignore the ESFj, knowing they can't prioritize, but making sure to acknowledge that he want's something done. After receiving their opinion, simply tell the ESFj, "as soon as I'm finished with this priority (fill in whatever term you want here), I'll start on the next. They'll respect this, as they know they can't prioritize for shit and won't be able to justify why something else is more important, or if they think they can, ask them why it's more important...they won't be able to, so this should get them to leave you alone temporarily.

[Joy]

UDP, I work from my house, his house, or other people's houses (or commercial buildings), so there is no set schedule and going in early won't work.

I think if I was in your situation (which would drive me nuts btw) I'd tell the ESFj that I needed to finish what I'd already started first before I take on anything new, or when the new assignments came I'd ask for a prioritization. If I could get a list of deadlines, I'd be in heaven and I'd make that quite clear.

That's what I've tried, and that's how I end up getting sent off into a so many different directions at once. It takes a 45 minute conversation to narrow it down and prioritize the top few things and find out exactly what needs to be done, but then two days later it changes.

An INTj's solution for this is to simply ignore the ESFj, knowing they can't prioritize, but making sure to acknowledge that he want's something done.

lol that's the best advice I've heard so far

[UDP]

There is something, which I have always found valuable to my own ends -- and that is just work on the most important thing anyways. Sometimes people get the picture afterwards... I will try that too.

[oyburger]

There is something, which I have always found valuable to my own ends -- and that is just work on the most important thing anyways. Sometimes people get the picture afterwards... I will try that too.

lol That's what I do too when they are beyond reasoning with.

[tcaudilllg]

Formality is key.

Tighten things up. Arrange that he can't make those crazy changes unless they are made by a protocol that you are capable of accounting for. Beyond this you've no hope.

[UDP]

Formality is key.

Tighten things up. Arrange that he can't make those crazy changes unless they are made by a protocol that you are capable of accounting for. Beyond this you've no hope.

good call

[Kirana]

There's this ESFj I know... my employer. He doesn't want to give me small, specific tasks to accomplish at specific times and manage the overall plans for the projects himself... he wants to give me projects that I figure out the steps for, and their timing. Okay, fine. Great, actually. But then he, without realizing it, messes up my plans and interferes with steps. Then he doesn't understand why I'm not actually accomplishing much.

He seems to think I can constantly alter plans without any consequence. He doesn't seem to understand that it takes longer to accomplish anything when he's sending me in a different direction every few days. He comes up with new projects (large projects) for me to do while I'm in the middle of another couple of large projects for him, as if he has no concept of the time and effort it will take to do them or how they'll mess up the sequence of events and timing of the other projects. He just casually says to do it as if it's the easiest and simplest thing in the world.

Sometimes I wonder how it's possible that he's a rational type because of this (it seems that if I were less thrown off by having my plans and timing changed things could run more smoothly?)... but when I read the ESFj/INTj duality description, it makes a bit more sense. The lazy ass INTj doesn't want to do anything and therefore questions the ESFj's many projects and his inefficient expenditure of time and effort. :wink: Seriously though...

When an ESFj says "Let's do this," I say, "Okay, let's do it" and make plans on how to get it done.

When an ESFj says "Let's do this," an INTj says... "Do we have to?"

Would an INTj like to expand on this (or contest it) and give me some pointers on how to work more effectively with an ESFj? I was with an INTj for like 4 years, but when I imagine dealing with the ESFj by modeling the INTj's behavior... I can't imagine how anything would ever get accomplished.

To be clear, he's great, overall. Very kind, hardworking, extremely bright, good at what he does... ect... I took the position with him because I could tell that he wanted to accomplish things and make his company grow significantly, and this inefficient interaction is the only thing slowing it down. We could have accomplished a lot more in these two years if we had a better system of working together set up, or if we communicated better perhaps? Any suggestions? I remember UPD suggesting in the past that I have weekly meetings where goals and time tables are laid out clearly, but the ESFj is very busy... always running around doing something... so this may be a lot to ask, especially during the busy season. And I'm not sure it would change much anyways, to be honest.

based on my relationship with my best friend: ESFjs have trouble prioritising, and have trouble grasping beforehand exactly how much time and resources any endeavour will require. if your boss were the project manager instead of you, he would have trouble keeping within the budget. he will keep the deadline, but only for some projects and sacrifice others, because he would likely have taken on more than he could realistically handle, and will prioritise... but at the end, when expectations have already been raised. my friend, because she's my friend, and because she knows her shortcomings, often comes to me to bounce off plans, and then my job is to ask her 'exactly what do you aim to achieve or gain from this?' and 'why do you need to do it at all?' or whether timing could eliminate or reduce the work, and so on. it's not so much laziness for an INTj , it's more like INTjs just hate doing futile or pointless work, or doing work in a stupid fashion. i think ESFjs can understand if you explain the overall picture to them. but if he is very busy, try to condense the key bits and explain to him in 15 minutes. yes, it can be done.