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Thread: INFp-ESTp duality and expectations: IEI male + SLE female

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    Default INFp-ESTp duality and expectations: IEI male + SLE female

    What about a female SLE, the strong variety; she realizes that she is very powerful and considers that for her to be happy she needs an even more powerful man.
    I talk to her by messenger and she is so far polarized that I start to recognize SLE messages very soon... I'm chuckling as she points out "not so feminine" characteristics that I know perfectly well where are coming from.
    I give her a SLE profile.... she thinks it's weird because she recognizes pretty much everything... BUT when she reads the IEI profile her attitude is something like "No way I can get along with such a wimp". If she feels she conquered the man she looses interest... she needs to be conquered... she needs a strong man... etc... (her opinion)

    How can this kind of situation be approached by an IEI male? I'm assuming she never experienced dualization... so no matter how much I try to explain about equilibrium, Yin-Yang mambo-jumbo, I feel she simply has no reference point... she keeps thinking that the solution is represented by someone more powerful.

    Any ideas? Maybe there are SLEs around here that experienced dualization later in life... and realized the benefits it can bring...

    Please feel free to share any insights...

    Thank you.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    That's her opinion. Remember that Fi deals with likes and dislikes. She probably doesn't actually know what she likes and dislikes, or rather, she cannot know it with certainity until experienced.

    In any case, INFp guys don't really appear like wimps. The description might make them sounds as such, but usually they are just as manly as an ESTp, to my eyes.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Ok... I admit that a lot of the confusion might be exacerbated by the fact that the was no physical interaction (only IM)

    Anyway.... back to one of my questions... how do you "sell" dualization to persons who never experienced it? Can you do it? Should you do it?
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma
    Ok... I admit that a lot of the confusion might be exacerbated by the fact that the was no physical interaction (only IM)

    Anyway.... back to one of my questions... how do you "sell" dualization to persons who never experienced it? Can you do it? Should you do it?
    By pointing out how the interactions with nonduals would end up in conflict.

    In your example, given that the woman is strong, having a strong man on her side would lead to bitterness and quarrels for dominance.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    How about the "conquered" situation? She feels that if she conquers someone she soon looses interest... Is this an SLE thing?

    Any tips on what conversation topics would a SLE like in the beginning?
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    become activated by her and become strong? this is not anathema to infp

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma
    How about the "conquered" situation? She feels that if she conquers someone she soon looses interest... Is this an SLE thing?

    Any tips on what conversation topics would a SLE like in the beginning?
    movies and music maybe? like *good* movies + music that most people are not aware exists. in my experience ESTps and INFps have similar tastes in such areas -attracted to intensity. I don't think she honestly knows what she wants but it seems like the men in her life thus far have been pretty stereotypical and uninteresting
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by science as magic
    become activated by her and become strong? this is not anathema to infp
    well... that was one of my ideas... I was thinking... if I get my body in shape... you know... spartan looking kind of guy... maybe some of the ESTp females would feel more secure... or something...
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    That's her opinion. Remember that Fi deals with likes and dislikes. She probably doesn't actually know what she likes and dislikes, or rather, she cannot know it with certainity until experienced.

    In any case, INFp guys don't really appear like wimps. The description might make them sounds as such, but usually they are just as manly as an ESTp, to my eyes.

    there are some seriously buff INFp/ENFjs out there, if they want to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii
    movies and music maybe? like *good* movies + music that most people are not aware exists. in my experience ESTps and INFps have similar tastes in such areas -attracted to intensity. I don't think she honestly knows what she wants but it seems like the men in her life thus far have been pretty stereotypical and uninteresting
    She's into heavy metal music... and let's say.... that's not my favorite type I'm more into wussies kind of music like... I don't know... Sarah McLachlan, Celine Dion and such...
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    ST women are the least likely women to date NF men. They usually do look for someone stronger than them. I sometimes think that type works on a scale. A person can be an INFp and exhibit strong Se and Ti, and may even seem like an ESTp, but if they are involved in a duality, their ESTp significant other subordinates them to their first functions. It is very much like the strong woman needing a stronger man thing. This relationship stereotype has existed for a long time.
    asd

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    so.... bottom line.... I should:
    1. Buy a mean bike
    2. get a tattoo
    3. start pumping iron
    4. grow at least a goatee
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    or find someone with whom you are actually compatible.
    asd

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    I have met two SLE women (of whose type I'm fairly certain).

    The first one - a colleague during my PhD. I seemed to intrigue her a bit. She was the most likely person to actively hit my Si PoLR - "why don't you care about your appearance, do you have no sense of self-worth?" She also, on my request, helped me pick up suits and the like. She was very clearly SLE. Her boyfriend, I didn't get to know well. He was quiet and solid. I could see LSI or IEI.

    The second one is a work colleague of my EII mate. I typed her mostly from his descriptions - she's the only person at work he has problems with. I met her and her husband, briefly, at a party. She's very attractive. Her husband is a an officer in the British army and looked LSI.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Her husband is a an officer in the British army and looked LSI.
    So they do have a strong bias towards more POWERFUL guys (at least in concept)
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma
    So they do have a strong bias towards more POWERFUL guys (at least in concept)
    Well, I think heath has a point. Due to gender roles, I think many SLE women may think that LSI men, for instance, are the best type for them. And, obviously, mirror is usually a good relationship. However, I am just reporting my observations, I am not making a case that SLE women will prefer LSIs to IEIs.

    Come to think of it, I may have known a SLE f - IEI - m couple, but the woman may have been SEE.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I believe that is just a silly bias... that with the right approach can be overcome... I was looking for ideas
    I could just forget it... but... what if I don't want to?
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    ST women are the least likely women to date NF men. They usually do look for someone stronger than them.
    Stronger on which scale? Physical? Mental? Emotional? Social? Some NFs are stronger than me in certain realms. Most ENFjs completely overthrow me in social maneuvring for example. INFps are far better at making friends and at attracting the attention on themselves of large groups of people.

    Sigma, with how many ESTp women have you talked? I think basing your response on only one of them is not a particularly good way of getting feedback. Indeed more self-aware women could give your different answers.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Sigma, with how many ESTp women have you talked? I think basing your response on only one of them is not a particularly good way of getting feedback. Indeed more self-aware women could give your different answers.
    I guess this would be the 4th one.

    The first one I interacted with was a friend of one of my sisters. We kinda clicked on. She came on to me, part play part serious. She was very beautiful so... something just felt right. Anyway it was only one new year's night party and some phone calls but we did had something going on.

    With the second one I had a longer interaction but I was seriously put off by what I perceived as a very low level mentality... a combination between lack of effort and very negative expectations... I thought I was a serious procrastinator... but this ESTp managed to do even less than I could, so not in alignment with the idea of will and determination that somehow I associated with ESTp (I might be mistaking in this)

    The third one... again... we had a longer interaction as just friends. She used to look at me as at a very good friend until I went out and complicated things even if I was aware that there were some issues in the physical attraction department (from my side).

    I think I have some interaction with ESTp females to know that there is a great variety withing the type... I recognize a lot of the characteristics of the ESTp in them BUT... well.... let's say that not all the characteristics are as strong in all of them...
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma
    so.... bottom line.... I should:
    1. Buy a mean bike
    2. get a tattoo
    3. start pumping iron
    4. grow at least a goatee
    just don't be ditzy and don't be a pussy and you should be fine

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Stronger on which scale? Physical? Mental? Emotional? Social? Some NFs are stronger than me in certain realms. Most ENFjs completely overthrow me in social maneuvring for example. INFps are far better at making friends and at attracting the attention on themselves of large groups of people.
    'Stronger' implies that they are more commanding/domineering. In any given situation the stronger party is more likely to be in control. The factors that lead to this could be physical or mental. I don't see overly emotional types as the sort of people who take control of situations. The points you made about ENFjs/INFps don't really apply because we are speaking about close relationships. Relationships in which both parties make important decisions that affect one another's future. In these situations, the qualities you attributed to INFp/ENFj aren't important.
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    In any given situation the stronger party is more likely to be in control.
    One of the things that I find difficult to explain without being misunderstood is the concept of control from the shadow.
    Ok, so you have an ESTp with "raw" power being in control but I feel is more like an agreed control. I, the INFp, allow this control to happen on my terms and if I want to, I could resort to manipulative techniques and get the other person to do what I want. I'm not a spineless pussy that's like pudding in the hands of this kind of woman. I do have some kind of power, just a different type of power, hidden, elusive.
    Also, I see power in passion, and I do have passion too. If you have passion for something you stand to make a lot of money and again... money is power... so... maybe that could be factored in too...
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigma
    Quote Originally Posted by heath
    In any given situation the stronger party is more likely to be in control.
    I, the INFp, allow this control to happen on my terms and if I want to, I could resort to manipulative techniques and get the other person to do what I want. I'm not a spineless pussy that's like pudding in the hands of this kind of woman. I do have some kind of power, just a different type of power, hidden, elusive.
    Well then I completely agree with her. I'd prefer to be dominated by being hit with a shovel on the head than being emotionally manipulated. Physical pain is much easier to stand than emotional one.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Well then I completely agree with her. I'd prefer to be dominated by being hit with a shovel on the head than being emotionally manipulated. Physical pain is much easier to stand than emotional one.
    As I said.... "One of the things that I find difficult to explain without being misunderstood is the concept of control from the shadow."
    I'm not a manipulative bastard that goes around pushing on people's soft spots to get his way.
    Anyway... your sharp response helped me better understand a reaction of another ESTp I really hurt in a moment of emotional outburst.
    Thanks.
    "What is love?"
    "The total absence of fear," said the Master.
    "What is it we fear?"
    "Love," said the Master.

    I chose Love

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    I find it funny to see that ESTp don't even know themselves well. ESTp do not really strive for power. It's a myth that Se = power.

    ESTp, like other Se dominants, have Si memory and thus they can remember very well their own thoughts which, combined with a weak Ne, which results in very little divergent thinking, which allows them to remain in whatever is in their minds for longer than other types. This gives others the impression that they have lots of will power, because other types forget or get distracted from what they want more easily. This also causes them to be very hard to be persuaded.

    There are ESTp who are not really interested in power. I know some who are more interested in computers or engineering.

    Such characteristics will probably give a woman the label of clever instead of manly.
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    elbow tchaikovsky freezer burn
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    maybe she's a esfp
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    I find it funny to see that ESTp don't even know themselves well. ESTp do not really strive for power. It's a myth that Se = power.

    ESTp, like other Se dominants, have Si memory and thus they can remember very well their own thoughts which, combined with a weak Ne, which results in very little divergent thinking, which allows them to remain in whatever is in their minds for longer than other types. This gives others the impression that they have lots of will power, because other types forget or get distracted from what they want more easily. This also causes them to be very hard to be persuaded.

    There are ESTp who are not really interested in power. I know some who are more interested in computers or engineering.

    Such characteristics will probably give a woman the label of clever instead of manly.
    ...what was this bullshit?

    No, for me willpower doesn't come from remembering my thoughts from memory in my mind or whatever. It's more physical, more body/instinct based.

    PS: nah I don't want to look too manly though, I'm a heterosexual woman

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    HAHAHA I lol'd at the SLE chick calling the IEI description a wimp, I would totally say something like that. So I used to want a more dominant man until I realized I felt weak around them and not supported the way I need to be and it took me awhile to realize it. As long as a dude isn't skinny/mal-nourished and lives with his mom then I don't see him as a wimp. Personally as an SLE chick I need someone who is EMOTIONALLY strong and mature enough to handle feelings and the emotional/vulnerable side of relationships.

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