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Thread: ENTp description (Filatova) edited!

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    misutii's Avatar
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    Default ENTp description (Filatova) edited!

    Intuitive-Logical Extrovert
    ILE – ENTp – Don Quixote (Inventor)

    Installation of the consciousness in the leading bloc: the ILE: the world is full of riddles, which conceal unusual possibilities. By solving these he learns of their embodied possibilities, which capably aid him in the creation of fundamentally new logical concepts.


    Description of the Strong Functions:

    Ne – ILE possesses an inextinguishable interest in the new and unusual, which promise to provide him with gripping prospects and possibilities in the future. The greater such possibilities are, the more they will interest the ILE. His interest flashes instantly, causing him to dip boundlessly into a new area of activity, but just as quickly his interest towards the subject may cool if it doesn’t seem to promise anything in the long-range.

    He is exceptionally creative, constantly in search of the best way to realize his abilities. His greatest enemy is someone who will not allow him to realize himself, a person that tries to crush his sincere enthusiasm with things such as routine work. ILE also wonderfully sees the potential possibilities in the people that surround him. He pushes others towards disclosing their abilities; he inspires them, before them revealing prospects one more brilliant than another. His approaches do not take heed of the established norms, nor does he hesitate in overthrowing them, with ease he tosses the old aside where they’ve become obsolete. The ILE’s behaviour may frequently appear to be unpredictable, even chaotic. This is because his indefatigable inquisitiveness is subordinated by moments of illumination – such moments provide the occasion needed for him to immediately act. When not inspired by such moments he willingly spends his time with others where he’ll find meaning in whatever activity he partakes in.

    Ti – The ILE’s ability to think represents his strong side. In solving problems he always attempts to see the connection between the specific problem and the general situation; he tries to estimate his response on the basis of general consideration. If he estimates the essence/root, then the logical description becomes obvious; consequences derive themselves from their general conformity with the laws.

    In work he is attracted to the development of strategic tasks, but not to the scrupulous study of fine details. The ILE’s principal difficulty is to settle down and concentrate on one area [of study/work]. To do this he needs to have a genuine need or especially strong interest.

    After regarding and studying all of the data, which interests him, he is able to conclude facts where others haven’t, and to create a generalized theory of nature.

    When only one aspect of his work fascinates him it sometimes occurs that he will inadequately perceive the situation. In such cases he will be defeated. However, this does not overly distress him: he can rapidly move away from an unsuccessful enterprise and direct himself towards anything new.

    The ILE usually does not attempt to plan his activities in advance, but in a crisis situation he is capable of concentrating, of finding the set of variants for overcoming the deadlock, he knows how to yield to panic. ILE is able to inspire others with his enthusiasm, he may promise much but he is not always able to follow through: this is not because he refuses to acknowledge his shortcomings but because his euphoric, and enthusiastic, states may lead him to overestimate the possibilities of a new idea.

    His basic interest often lies within the sphere of natural sciences, but is not excluded from humanitarian activity. If the idea of something suddenly lights up, in his mind, he will offer leisure time to it. He frequently varies the course of his life, from one profession to another.

    He finds it difficult to subordinate himself to routine, to strictly regulate his work conditions; his impulsiveness may lead him to conflict with the authorities. However, should he find work that quenches the thirst of his creativity, he is able to bring himself to exhaustion whilst at the same time deriving great pleasure from his work.

    Physical work may also inspire him, especially when it gives him the chance to comprehend something new, to discover the unexpected sides of his abilities. The possibility of learning something is sometimes more important than the eventual result.


    Description of the Weak Functions:

    Fi – The ILE feels nervously in the sphere of human relations. He usually interprets his relations badly, therefore he allows relations to develop with care, he waits until he learns something for sure rather than assuming. Thus he behaves with restraint in front of people he doesn’t know.

    He cannot always discern the state of another person; he may therefore offend others in the manner by which he expresses what he’s discovered for he doesn’t seem to take into account other’s feelings in regards to the situation. But this is never the consequence of evil intent, envy or arrogance. ILE simply believes that he is speaking about something objectively, and that the truth will not offend anyone…

    ILE places vast value on the decency of a person. The criterion of decency, as a rule, is overstated. If someone seeks his company he assumes that mutual respect exists. He strongly suffers offense and injustice. He will not reconcile with others, unless the offender apologizes before him.

    ILE frequently has a wide circle of friends. He loves to consider different problems with them. They, alongside reading, radio and television, provide him with an excellent source of information.

    Se – ILE usually prefers not to exert volitional pressure in his actions.

    An exception to this case is when another person desires to use him for their own purposes, to force him into some activities. In such a situation he will give energetic resistance, decisively defending himself from another’s pressure. In protecting himself he can often manifest his hot temper and impatience.

    In regards to everything concerning health, and the organization of household conveniences, ILE requires another’s guardianship. He rarely takes the effort to disturb his dwelling place, whether to organize or cause disorder. He will only episodically arrange and/or dismantle things if they prevent him from living and working.

    The organization of his financial situation usually leaves much to be desired. It often occurs that he does not live within his means; he immediately spends everything he earns. But his ingenuity is always sufficient in finding the new possibility to earn and/or acquire money.


    ILE at Work and in the Home:

    As a boss ILE is especially good at strategic questions, the ability to see the distant prospect in regards to the selected direction of work.

    He attempts to garner the attention of subordinates, to fascinate them with the grandeur of tasks, to gather adherents around him. He prefers not to enforce strict rules, to give others freedom. To do this he accurately discerns the abilities of each member of the collective. He gives them a detailed study/outline of the project for when those above him fail to do so he becomes impatient.

    In an office of position ILE is capable of manifesting persistence, he is able to deal with a coworker that badly manages their work, however, in such a case he doesn’t let power get to his head, there is no arrogance or egotism.

    The ILE is very sociable, however, he is not always able to create a successful family. He does not really understand the feeling of love. Love seems to occur outside of his control. Although it occurs that during life he may never be the one rejected or abandoned by another, even women of this psycho-type rarely agree to completely dedicate themselves to family.

    Although he feels the strong need for the heat of contact with another, his weakness in the emotional-sensory areas does not often permit him to take initiative into his own hands.


    Summary of Functions:
    1. Ne – Possesses an inextinguishable interest in the entirely new, which promises him with gripping prospects and possibilities. He readily puts to use any information source. He knows how to foresee the consequences of large events, possesses the gift of presentation. His mind is rich in fantasy.
    2. Ti – He is capable of creating a fundamentally new theory, after conjoining its details. He is frequently the initiator of new directions in science. Is able to qualitatively and consistently execute work, to scrupulously study its components, should it fascinate him.
    3. Fi – He establishes both for himself and others high standards of moral behavior. Is irreconcilable in his requirements, he does not pardon those that do not correspond. He is easily emotionally carried away by something, thus easily cooling to the previous object of interest. Is sometimes capable of victimizing others.
    4. Se – He does not attempt to obtain something by force and, at the same time, will never give into another’s offense. Another’s pressure will be met with resistance. He rarely disturbs anything in regards to health and household conveniences. His financial situation leaves much to be desired, but his ingenuity is sufficient in obtaining money when necessary.


    Professional Possibilities:
    ILE develops abilities most vividly in scientific work, in research. For the representatives of this psycho-type, like no other, is the possibility of initiating science in new directions on the basis of the synthesis of fields of knowledge, which would at first seem, distant from each other. May also successfully work in the sphere of business and commerce; also in the carrying out of intellectual production (i.e. book publishing).


    Relations:
    Potentially Favourable:
    SEI (ISFp), SLI (ISTp), IEI (INFp), ESE (ESFj)
    Potentially Adverse:
    ESI (ISFj), EII (INFj), LSI (ISTj), ILI (INTp)
    INFp-Ni

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    Default entp or enfp

    Need help understanding if a person can have both T/F funcions equally. I have begun studying extensively as I am just learning socionics, but I can't resolve this issue on my own.

    This will sound very weird, but I have always lived torn b/w the T and F demands, and I see this in my father's ways as well. The desire for adventure and strategic potency is in some dynamic tension with sensitivity and feeling. Some say it is fruitful but I've had mentors/bosses say they do not know which comes first with me and it can irritate the heck out of me.

    I was inundated with Meyers-Brigg's tests (yes, I know they are very different from socionics!) through different stages of the educational system and at work. I always scored as an enfp/entp, with equal scores in T/F, one point higher in F or T on a couple cases. (I once scored as an INTJ, but took that test during grad work and it does not fit me at all except for the strategizing part.)

    I did spend sometime in sociology and chemistry/genetics research and the innovative/difficult theory part was easy (entp) but I left after a year for medical practice b/c I missed helping others and actively solving problems that mattered immediately (and the adrenaline rush too.) (enfp) My ideal job would include both.

    I have always assumed I was an enfp who had learned to develop the T part, b/c I remember being so sensitive or "intuiting" a person as a child, and I can party with almost anyone. But, I am beginning to think, that I'm an ENTP, who was just highly socialized as a female to care about and work with people, raised in a family that believed that using occassional charm and wicked humor are as necessary to life as breathing.(Irish American) In truth, too much "people" activity (even the best pub conversations) exhausts me after awhile.


    There is much about the ENFP "uncovered" I recognize (esp. some of the posturing/manipulating people's motivations/ego stuff--damn, I hate admitting it) but when I read the ENTP posts, I feel like I have found my tribe. I so get them. Like I would be an absolute entp, if I just didn't have to give a damn about anyone/anything else.

    I score as an ENTP (t subtype) or rarely an ENFJ on socionics tests. Anyone who has ways to explain socionics take on such a situation, please help. Especially an INTJ who can do so in a very logical, evidence-based way, since they always seem to make alot of sense to me. (Like they fill in all the steps b/w my jumped-to-conclusions and quickly ingested data. Any other en t/f p's out there? How do you handle the conflicting demands/values?

    Excuse the long post, but I can't figure this out on my own. thanks.

  3. #3
    Creepy-Diana

    Default Re: entp or enfp

    .

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    *poof*

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    btw here's original that I worked with, all suggestions welcome:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Installation of the consciousness of the leading bloc THE ILE: the world is full of the riddles, which conceal the unusual possibilities (CHI of — program function). To solution of these secrets and the embodiment of the possibilities to capably help the creation of fundamentally new logical concepts (BL of — the implementation of program).

    Description of the activity of the functions of strong canals (leading bloc)

    CHI of — program function. ILE it possesses inextinguishable interest in entire new, unusual, which can promise the gripping prospects and possibilities in the future. And the greater such possibilities, the stronger their authority above it. Its interest flashes instantly, it can boundlessly dip into th areas of activity e new for it, but it is so rapidly capable to cool of the previous object of entrainment, if was bent back something another, as it seems, long-rangeer promising.

    It man is exceptionally creative, constantly it is located in search of the best way of the realization of its abilities. Its greatest enemy of — does not the one who give to it to manifest himself, he tries to crush his sincere enthusiasm standard and routine work. ILE it wonderfully sees also the potential possibilities of those people, which surround it, it pushes to the disclosure of their abilities, it inspires, revealing before them prospects one more brilliant than another. Its approaches little will be coordinated with the norms taken, it does not stop before the fact in order to destroy the kept balance canons, with the ease rejects entire old and become obsolete. Behavior ILE frequently can appear unpredictable, even chaotic, since, moved with its indefatigable inquisitiveness, it is subordinated to moment, to illumination, — for it is this sufficient occasion in order immediately to begin to act. There is so that it and itself does not know that it can occur with it at the following moment of time, in this case willingly spends its time on others, if this seems it not by empty work, but by the activity, completed of meaning.

    BL of — the function of the implementation of program. Ability to think — strong side ILE. Solving any problem, it always attempts to see the connection of problem with the more general structure, he tries to guess response on the basis of general consideration. If it guessed essence, then for it the logic of description becomes obvious; any consequence of the general conformity with the laies it will easily derive itself.

    In the work to it are nearer the development of strategic tasks, but not the scrupulous study of fine details. If it is not dispersed to the secondary occupations of — it can present basic task to the be all-inclusiveing decision. Principal difficulty for THE ILE of — to try to be concentrated on one work. To this it can force either unbleached need or especially strong interest.

    After studying all data regarding, which it interests, it is capable to bring to the end and that the fact that it is not made others, and to create the theory of the generalizing nature.

    It occurs and so that it inadequately rates situation, if one aspect of work strongly fascinates it. In such cases it can be defeated. However, its this too does not distress: it rapidly will move away from the unsuccessful enterprise and is thrown to anything new.

    Usually ILE completely it does not attempt to design its activities in advance, but in the emergency situation it is capable to be concentrated, to find the set of the variants of overcoming the deadlock, it knows how not to yield to panic. ILE it is capable to load by its enthusiasm of those surrounding, it can much promise, but it is not always capable this to execute: because it does not love to release dust into the eyes, but, faster because in the state of euphoria and enthusiasm from any new idea it overestimates its possibilities.

    Its basic interest more frequently lies at the sphere of natural sciences, but is not excluded humanitarian activity. If it suddenly catches fire by the idea of the validity of — it will give tribute to social activities. Frequently it varies in the course of the life, moreover repeatedly, one profession to another.

    To it it is difficult to subordinate itself to regime, to work in the conditions of strict regulation, its impulsiveness can lead to the fact that it will make anything not in time how it will cause the censures of authorities. However, if it found the work, in which can realize its invincible thirst of creativity, — it is capable not only to bring itself to the exhaustion, but to still and test from this great pleasure.

    Physical work also can inspire it, will especially when give to it chance to comprehend something new, to discover the unexpected sides of its abilities (in this case — in the sphere of the business logic of — MEMBER); the possibility to something to learn for it is sometimes more important than eventual result.

    Description of the activity of the functions of the weak canals

    BE of — the canal of the smallest resistor (KNS). The area of human relations of — this that sphere, where THE ILE it feels itself neuverenno. Usually it badly realizes relation to itself and, in view of this, the care develops, awaits, when it learns something for sure. Therefore it behaves with restraint with the unknown people.

    Not always it can feel the state of man; therefore it occurs, which will offend, after expressing discovered on one or other occasion or another, completely without taking into account in this case, which can catch whose- that of a feeling. But this never is the consequence of evil intention, envy, desire to humble. Simply ILE it considers that it speaks out objectively, but to the truth no one offend must…

    For ILE vast value has a decency of man.

    The criteria of decency are, as a rule, overstated, although he tries to relate to the people objectively. If someone drew together with it, it assumes this man completely, it is capable with respect to it to [samootdachu] and even to the self-sacrifice. Itself it can prove to be to very ranimym: it occurs, that, falling in the extremity, it strongly survives offenses and injustice (CHE). It will not go be reconciled to, as a rule, by the first, but if the offender before it apologized itself in any form of — of evil remember will not be.

    Frequently ILE has the wide circle of friends, loves to consider with them different problems of — this for it the excellent information source, supplemental to reading, to crosstalk of radio transmissions and to the survey of tv programs.

    CHS of — normative function. Usually ILE it prefers not to put to use power methods in its vital practice.

    Exception is that case, when is located that desiring to use it for its purposes, to force to some activities. In this situation it will give energetic resistance, decisively it is defended from the ram pressure. Being actively protected, it can manifest hot temper and impatience.

    Everything, concerning health, health, organization of household conveniences (BS) in — ILE itself needs guardianship. It, in particular, it little disturbs, in what state be its dwelling, order there or disorder. True, it is capable to episodically arrange the dismantling of things and harvesting, if the scattered things prevent it from living and working.

    Its financial works usually are left much to be desired themselves. It occurs, that it lives not on the means: everything which earns, immediately it spends. But to it ingenuity always is sufficient to that, in order to find the new possibility to earn and to reach money.

    ILE on the work and the house

    CHIEF- ILE it is especially strong in strategic questions, ability to see the distant prospect for the selected direction of work.

    It attempts to reveal by its subordinate, to fascinate by the grandeur of tasks, to gather adherents around itself. It does not love to carry out a tight control, but it gives freedom, correctly rating the abilities of each member of collective. It transmits to them the detailed study of its projects, since to to it itself to this, as a rule, patience does not be sufficient.

    In the office of chief ILE it is capable to manifest persistence, it can give to feel to coworker which that badly manages the work, — however in this case never becomes into the pose of head, in it there is no arrogance, egotism.

    Man very sociable, ILE, nevertheless, is not always capable to create successful family. A feeling of love to him is not very understandable, this, it is faster, then that with it it occurs besides its will. It occurs, that during life it not one time enters into the reject, but even women of this psycho-type rarely agree to completely dedicate themselves to family.

    If reject ILE is successful, then, most likely, this is the merit of its partner, and not his very. Although it feels the strong need for the heat of contact, — the weakness of emotional- sensory area does not permit for it to take initiative in its hands.
    INFp-Ni

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    Misutii, thanks for posting this. I've been looking forward to this one.
    Overally, it seems very similar to Strat...skaya's.
    Personally, I have a big problem with Socionic ILE descriptions. On one hand, I usually resonate with them; I like to see myself as creative, full of ideas, not liking too much "routine."

    On the other hand, more than any type, the ILE descriptions tend to describe what may be called "level" instead of just "style." That is, they imply that ILEs are creative, brilliant, have great ideas, etc. But surely other types of people are also creative, meaning that other types of people may view themselves as being ILE. It seems to me that most of what is said here would apply equally to particularly creative ILI or IEI types.

    The strongest case for me not being ILE are:
    * I see myself as different from people who I think are ILE
    * I get along well with ESI types
    * I can't see myself as being "look-alike" with SLE.

    Nevertheless, Filatova's ILE description is pretty close to how I like to see myself (though not necessarily how others see me).

    It seems to me that what's possibly missing in most ILE descriptions may be tendencies to:
    * to think out loud and involve others in their thought process
    * enjoy impressing others with their ideas or intellectuality
    * wear intellectuality as a "style"...to purposely and confidently dress in a "nerdy" sort of way whereas ILI and LII dress that way but only by accident. Almost all ILEs I know have a certain outward intellectual persona that causes others to accept them because they seem so comfortable with it.
    * sometimes engage in pseudo-SLE behavior
    * focus on what they see is misconceptions, not to correct or refine what other people are saying, but rather to make reality seem more paradoxical. Almost all ILEs I know have this tendency. They say things like "most people think that black is black and white is white, but actually, that's one of the biggest myths ever. In reality, black is white and white is black...." etc.

    I'd be curious if other people see my bullet points as describing ILE, because those are how I see ILE....whereas Filatova's description here seems to apply anyone who's creative, intellectual, and doesn't like routine, which could be lots of different types.

    PS...Phaedrus mentioned that Filatova had some historical typings in with her descriptions...I'd love to see those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    PS...Phaedrus mentioned that Filatova had some historical typings in with her descriptions...I'd love to see those.
    Known names of — THE ILE:
    A. Einstein, K. Tsiolkovskiy, A. Vernadskij, N. Bohr, D. Mendeleyev, S. Freud, A. Saxarov, S. Kovalev, S. Prokofiev, M. Of [rostropovich], A. Augjustinavichujte, 3. Piaf, M. of Mathieu, Yu. Nikulin, I. Churikov, 3. Garin, [P]. Richard.

    I have changed the original slightly. For example it said "e. Freud". Some I have left as they stand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    PS...Phaedrus mentioned that Filatova had some historical typings in with her descriptions...I'd love to see those.
    Known names of — THE ILE:
    A. Einstein, K. Tsiolkovskiy, A. Vernadskij, N. Bohr, D. Mendeleyev, S. Freud, A. Saxarov, S. Kovalev, S. Prokofiev, M. Of [rostropovich], A. Augjustinavichujte, 3. Piaf, M. of Mathieu, Yu. Nikulin, I. Churikov, 3. Garin, [P]. Richard.

    I have changed the original slightly. For example it said "e. Freud". Some I have left as they stand.
    Prokofiev?! Wow, where does she get these! At least Rick gives his reasons.
    I'd love to see the rest. She has a few composers already, so I bet she has at least one classical composer in each type.

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    Here are the famous persons Filatova mentions at the end of her book (it is not a direct quote but I haven't changed the spelling of the names):

    EIIs: Nikolai OF THE II, van [Gog], k. Is [paustovskij], d. Likhachev, n. of Belokhvostikov, Yu. Solomin, n. To svanidze, a. Solzhenitsyn.

    IEEs: V. Mozart, 3. Riazanov, a. Mironov, O. Menshikov, v. Solomin, the O. Of [aroseva], v. Of [spivakov], l. Of [kasatkina].

    IEIs: F. Chopin, n. Bukharin, s. Lemeshev, Yu. Gulyayev, Yu. Gagarin, v. Molchanov, e. Of [martynov], e. nightingale, l. of Savelyev, O. distance.

    EIEs: V. Of [bryntsalov], a. Hitler, b. of Mussolini, l. Trotsky, v. Zhirinovsky, f. Shalyapin, d. Of [lennon], h. Chaplin, a. Vertinskiy, a. Rajkin, n. Cherkasov, v. Tikhonov (artist), k. [Shulzhenko], a. Malinin, i. Of [repin].

    ESIs: I. Turgenev, a. Ostrovskiy, [A]. Dumas- son, s. To rotaru, v. Is [stashevskij], v. Tolkunova, b. of spent lees, M. [Plachido].

    SEEs: M. Gorbachev, r. of Gorbachev, p. Grachev, a. Pugacheva, n. Of [gundareva], M. Is [ganapolskij], v. Of [pelsh], i. of Makarov, 3. Taylor, f. Of [merkjuri].

    SEIs: E. Leonov, v. Dobrynin, p. Of [makkartni], n. Of [darjalova], n. Of [ozerov], n. of Danilov, a. Of [kaljagin], k. of Novikov, O. Tabakov, v. Judashkin.

    ESEs: Zh. [Vern], i. Strauss, s. Of [nemoljaeva], l. of Orlov, a. Of [khachaturjan], e. Fedorov, l. Kuravlev, r. Of [aushev], i. Rybkin, l. Yakubovic.

    LIIs: Karl Gustav Jung, [N]. Amos, f. Dzerzhinskiy, a. Chekhov, s. Rakhmaninoff, d. Shostakovic, e. Is [mravinskij], g. Ulanova, M. [Plisetskaja], a. Sokolov, e. Of [majorova], r. Of [pljatt], e. of Simonov, Yu. Of [shevchuk].

    ILEs: A. Einstein, k. Tsiolkovskiy, [A]. Vernadskij, n. Bohr, d. Mendeleyev, e. Freud, a. Saxarov, s. Kovalev, s. Prokofiev, M. Of [rostropovich], a. Augjustinavichujte, 3. Piaf, M. of Mathieu, Yu. Nikulin, i. Churikov, 3. Garin, [P]. Richard.

    ILIs: L. Beethoven, a. of Pavlov, M. Kutuzov, Yu. Andropov, e. Of [gajdar], i. Of [khakamada], s. Bondarchuk, n. Krupskaya, a. Shirvindt, d. [mazina], d. Banionis, M. Zhvanetskij, M. of Tereckov, l. valley.

    LIEs: D. of Kennedy, r. Feynman, r. Wood, i. Newton, a. Suvorov, a. of Exupery, r. Bykov, a. Of [rutskoj], e. Kiselev, a. Of [pakhmutova], O. Of [gazmanov], n. Of [negoda], Zh. - p. [Belmondo], e. Of [shifrin], e. of Vasil'yev.

    LSIs: I. Stalin, s. Hussein, d. Dudaev, n. Mikhalkov, l. Filatov, v. Lanovoj, l. To [vajkule], O. Borisov, a. Karpov, v. Leont'yev, k. Rajkin, the O. Of [strizhenov], s. Of [govorukhin], a. Lazarev.

    SLEs: Peter of the I, v. Lenin, Yu. of meadows, M. Thatcher, l. Of [kravchuk], a. Cygnus, g. old-howlTOVA, s. Fedorov, s. Korolev, a. Of [akhmatova], M. Ulyanov, k. Lavrov, l. of Gurchenko, i. Of [rozanova], T. of Vasil'yev.

    SLIs: V. Of [chernomyrdin], a. Maskadov, [Zh]. [Simenon], a. To [kristi], r. Pauls, i. Vladimirov, 3. Pekha, the O. of Basilawvili, a. Rosenbaum, d. Dassen.

    LSEs: P. Of [stolypin], g. if, n. Of [nazarbaev], s. Of [shushkevich], a. Of [sobchak], g. Seleznev, r. To [zorge], k. Stanislavski1, v. To [artmane], i. Of [kobzon], v. Livanov, v. Tretjak, v. Tikhonov (trainer).

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    Thanks! This is very interesting.
    I'm not surprised that she sees Mozart as IEE. Chopin as IEI and Rachmaninoff as LII seem to be standard typings.

    Dmitri Shostakovitch as LII also really throws a monkey wrench in things, though. Dmitri lists him as ILI, with "BK" typing him IEI. Compared to Rachmaninoff, his music seems to typify the difference between extrenal structure (NiTe) and internal structure (Ne; TiNe for Rachmaninoff according to Socionists). In a nutshell, Dmitri's typing is believable there; Filatova's seems questionable.

    Beethoven as ILI is interesting. Rick made a good case for EIE. However, I see a good case for ILI too, though a very unique ILI, portraying more the emotional outlook of ILI. I could see Beethoven as having, instead of just Ni->Te rather Si->Fe->Ni->Te, with Fi->Te and a fair amount of Se.

    I can see why she types Prokofief as ILE. It does make sense in a way. I hear Fe and used to think of him as an NF type. However, I'm coming to understand that most people that Socionists type as Alpha NT seem to my perception to have lots of Fe and to be NF; now, if I see someone I think is NF with lots of Fe but a highly developed Ti intellect underneath, I'm more inclined to think that they're probably Alpha NT.

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    misutii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Misutii, thanks for posting this. I've been looking forward to this one.
    Overally, it seems very similar to Strat...skaya's.
    Personally, I have a big problem with Socionic ILE descriptions. On one hand, I usually resonate with them; I like to see myself as creative, full of ideas, not liking too much "routine."
    Umm I think it's important to look at the whole ILE description in comparison to the ILI description. The ILI stands out in the sense of their using intellectual ability and games to compensate for Fe PoLR, and of course their silent vanity - i loved that line, lol, vanity rocks
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii
    Umm I think it's important to look at the whole ILE description in comparison to the ILI description. The ILI stands out in the sense of their using intellectual ability and games to compensate for Fe PoLR, and of course their silent vanity
    Correct. If you compare with MBTT descriptions, this difference between ILEs and ILIs should become even more clear to you, Jonathan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii
    Umm I think it's important to look at the whole ILE description in comparison to the ILI description. The ILI stands out in the sense of their using intellectual ability and games to compensate for Fe PoLR, and of course their silent vanity - i loved that line, lol, vanity rocks
    I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Rick types Warren Buffett as ILI, and I think that's probably right. I saw an interview on youtube, and the first thing that hit me was that this guy is so humble and down-to-earth, and he reminded me of a number of ILIs I know...self-effacing, easy to talk to, very unpretentious. Probably one has to be a different type to see ILIs as vain.

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    BTW, what sort of games do ILIs play (i.e., you said "games to compensate for Fe PoLR")??? (I know this is an ILE thread, but since you brought it up...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    BTW, what sort of games do ILIs play (i.e., you said "games to compensate for Fe PoLR")??? (I know this is an ILE thread, but since you brought it up...)
    like brazenly talking to another individual, when hanging out in a group, about something that no one else in the group comprehends except the INTp and the person they're talking too (i like it when it's me) - it's funny because everyone else in the group focuses on the conversation and is speechless kind of pretending to know what the hell is being talked about... INTps are really good at this they're creative enough to keep such a conversation going on and on, relating it to more and more things

    also if an INTps friend is depressed about something instead of giving them a hug the INTp will verbally console them in a way.... i.e. completely ripping apart the person that made their friend feel like shit thus making friend feel better cuz they are convinced the person that fucked them over is a worthless stupid personality disorder ridden imbecile
    INFp-Ni

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    Default Re: entp or enfp

    Quote Originally Posted by amex
    Need help understanding if a person can have both T/F funcions equally. I have begun studying extensively as I am just learning socionics, but I can't resolve this issue on my own.

    This will sound very weird, but I have always lived torn b/w the T and F demands, and I see this in my father's ways as well. The desire for adventure and strategic potency is in some dynamic tension with sensitivity and feeling. Some say it is fruitful but I've had mentors/bosses say they do not know which comes first with me and it can irritate the heck out of me.

    I was inundated with Meyers-Brigg's tests (yes, I know they are very different from socionics!) through different stages of the educational system and at work. I always scored as an enfp/entp, with equal scores in T/F, one point higher in F or T on a couple cases. (I once scored as an INTJ, but took that test during grad work and it does not fit me at all except for the strategizing part.)

    I did spend sometime in sociology and chemistry/genetics research and the innovative/difficult theory part was easy (entp) but I left after a year for medical practice b/c I missed helping others and actively solving problems that mattered immediately (and the adrenaline rush too.) (enfp) My ideal job would include both.

    I have always assumed I was an enfp who had learned to develop the T part, b/c I remember being so sensitive or "intuiting" a person as a child, and I can party with almost anyone. But, I am beginning to think, that I'm an ENTP, who was just highly socialized as a female to care about and work with people, raised in a family that believed that using occassional charm and wicked humor are as necessary to life as breathing.(Irish American) In truth, too much "people" activity (even the best pub conversations) exhausts me after awhile.


    There is much about the ENFP "uncovered" I recognize (esp. some of the posturing/manipulating people's motivations/ego stuff--damn, I hate admitting it) but when I read the ENTP posts, I feel like I have found my tribe. I so get them. Like I would be an absolute entp, if I just didn't have to give a damn about anyone/anything else.

    I score as an ENTP (t subtype) or rarely an ENFJ on socionics tests. Anyone who has ways to explain socionics take on such a situation, please help. Especially an INTJ who can do so in a very logical, evidence-based way, since they always seem to make alot of sense to me. (Like they fill in all the steps b/w my jumped-to-conclusions and quickly ingested data. Any other en t/f p's out there? How do you handle the conflicting demands/values?

    Excuse the long post, but I can't figure this out on my own. thanks.

    I'm also a girl so I feel like that has definitely had an impact on my feeling side, i feel like my f side comes out when i see other people in pain though. I was watching blood diamond and i was on the verge or tears. when I have a job to do or i'm angry, however, i don't have much of a problem telling people exactly what i think. I don't really feel i try to manipulate people's motivations. I'm not sure what the enfp type of humor is but i enjoy sarcasm and arguing sometimes with the right people. It's hard having this mix though sometimes i'll do things because i'm curious and i want to experiment and love the adventure, and then feel bad about it later because it went against some values that i didn't feel i had at the moment.
    enf/tp
    7w8

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    This description fits Patrick very well, (boyfriend). There a few wordings that come off pretty dramatic....but I can see the point behind them
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Default Re: entp or enfp

    Quote Originally Posted by amex
    Need help understanding if a person can have both T/F funcions equally. I have begun studying extensively as I am just learning socionics, but I can't resolve this issue on my own.

    This will sound very weird, but I have always lived torn b/w the T and F demands, and I see this in my father's ways as well. The desire for adventure and strategic potency is in some dynamic tension with sensitivity and feeling. Some say it is fruitful but I've had mentors/bosses say they do not know which comes first with me and it can irritate the heck out of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by claire
    I'm also a girl so I feel like that has definitely had an impact on my feeling side, i feel like my f side comes out when i see other people in pain though. I was watching blood diamond and i was on the verge or tears. when I have a job to do or i'm angry, however, i don't have much of a problem telling people exactly what i think. I don't really feel i try to manipulate people's motivations. I'm not sure what the enfp type of humor is but i enjoy sarcasm and arguing sometimes with the right people. It's hard having this mix though sometimes i'll do things because i'm curious and i want to experiment and love the adventure, and then feel bad about it later because it went against some values that i didn't feel i had at the moment.
    If socionics were to suggest that T types are simply less emotional overall, that would be a gross oversimplification. I'm a male ENTp, and I've had films move me to tears. I would expect females to have dealt with it even more, because of physiology and/or social conditioning. (Perhaps its foolish to assume that everyone agrees that women are emotional than men, but please don't flame me.)

    I believe what socionics really indicates is that logical types are more comfortable and competent in dealing with algorithm and structure than with relationship and emotion. Though the emotions are there, they remain poorly understood and confusing to us, because we don't have the emotional competency to deal with them the way ethical types do.

    ILEs seem to have two predominant feelings: interest and boredom. It seems that all other emotions can be best understood through the manner in which they are related to those two, which are basically measures of the amount of stimulation. What I mean is that, when I'm sad, I wonder why I'm sad (), and what this sadness does for me (). When I regret something I did, I consider the merits of my actions and values (), and ponder the implications of changing one or both ().

    This, I believe, is the way ILEs deal with emotion. I could be wrong, but, I would definitely assert that if interest and boredom are not your most common feelings, you are probably not an ILE.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

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    I'm pretty sure boredom and depression are linked. Can't imagine being happily bored. Or bored of being happy. Being depressed just feels like I'm dead, like a tidal wave where I try my hardest to hang onto something so I dont get sucked into the water. Moments where I get depressed, I'm still trying to find the cause. Maybe it's from me grinding my teeth and having some of the amalgam fillings getting filed off and the mercury agitating the chemicals in my brain. Or some other personal issue. Moments where I get depressed I'm looking at my emotion like I can touch it and wonder it's use, and realize that I can just shrug it off because I have a choice to just shrug it off. Logic has it's ugly consequences too.. Well not in my ideal world.

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    Default Re: entp or enfp

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    It's not that women or "feelers" are more emotional, they deal with emotions differently...
    Fair enough, although I'm alluding to Rick DeLong's theory of intergral types: specifically, for men and for women. Also, I'm talking about higher levels of oxytocin and other "emotion" hormones. But, I understand what your getting at. (Semantics is a biotch.)

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    For me almost all emotion is a intruder/visitor/guest in the house... for others emotions might be like family, if they weren't around it wouldn't feel comfy. I know more then once I've been blindsided by emotion, like boom.. I'm in love, or boom... I'm angry.. it could be years later... because at the time the event that caused the emotion, I didn't feel it or i blocked it away.
    That hits close to home. I know exactly what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    I have a way of looking at function that I don't want to discuss until I learn more socionics, but it's very close to what I'm reading right now, I just wish I could access the Russian, my dad's fluent in Russian, but he can't translate it to English.
    Hey, I'd like to hear what you have to think. Nothing gets me going more than a fresh perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Anyways to me... my emotions are a delayed reaction.. for the feeler the emotions might hit in a second or a minute... but for me... it takes a hour, a week, a year or a decade. Or... when I experience some media that mirror the situation and elicits the reaction, except when I'm viewing the Media, there is no fear and no audience so I can actually feel.. rather then block. It also takes a long time to get over a unwanted emotion.

    Also, the use of Ne/Ti to resolve emotions, I don't believe this to be the case. Because often times, the cause/root/solution to the emotion simply does not exist. Do you sit in a Ne/Ti loop forever pondering the impossible. Also, one might understand the reason why is angry, but does that take the anger away?
    Yes, I do sit in a , loop forever. It's awful. It never works. I just carry that baggage around until it slowly fades. I never meant to suggest that doing that is an effective way to deal with feelings, but it's what I do nevertheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    I think that if one only uses Ne/Ti to address feelings, there is no relief to be gained.. especially when the emotions are complex and powerful. What happens is one starts getting depressed, feel powerless and all that bad stuff.
    Yes, in fact, overthinking is a great way to put yourself in a downward depression spiral. But to this day I still apologize for and attempt to rationalize my emotions. But fuels existential depression, and lets you know just how much horrible stuff could happen. It's viciousl. But it's what ILEs deal with.

    And of course everyone expects you to be Mr/Ms Eccentric Optimist and wonders why the hell you are actually feeling something...because we're supposed to be like a benign malfunctioning robot or something, right?

    [hr:0b88468ffc]

    Discussions like these make this forum worthwhile. I'm glad that we can engage in this discussion, hkkmr.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

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    Default Re: entp or enfp

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    It's not that women or "feelers" are more emotional, they deal with emotions differently...
    Fair enough, although I'm alluding to Rick DeLong's theory of intergral types: specifically, for men and for women. Also, I'm talking about higher levels of oxytocin and other "emotion" hormones. But, I understand what your getting at. (Semantics is a biotch.)

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    For me almost all emotion is a intruder/visitor/guest in the house... for others emotions might be like family, if they weren't around it wouldn't feel comfy. I know more then once I've been blindsided by emotion, like boom.. I'm in love, or boom... I'm angry.. it could be years later... because at the time the event that caused the emotion, I didn't feel it or i blocked it away.
    That hits close to home. I know exactly what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    I have a way of looking at function that I don't want to discuss until I learn more socionics, but it's very close to what I'm reading right now, I just wish I could access the Russian, my dad's fluent in Russian, but he can't translate it to English.
    Hey, I'd like to hear what you have to think. Nothing gets me going more than a fresh perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Anyways to me... my emotions are a delayed reaction.. for the feeler the emotions might hit in a second or a minute... but for me... it takes a hour, a week, a year or a decade. Or... when I experience some media that mirror the situation and elicits the reaction, except when I'm viewing the Media, there is no fear and no audience so I can actually feel.. rather then block. It also takes a long time to get over a unwanted emotion.

    Also, the use of Ne/Ti to resolve emotions, I don't believe this to be the case. Because often times, the cause/root/solution to the emotion simply does not exist. Do you sit in a Ne/Ti loop forever pondering the impossible. Also, one might understand the reason why is angry, but does that take the anger away?
    Yes, I do sit in a , loop forever. It's awful. It never works. I just carry that baggage around until it slowly fades. I never meant to suggest that doing that is an effective way to deal with feelings, but it's what I do nevertheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    I think that if one only uses Ne/Ti to address feelings, there is no relief to be gained.. especially when the emotions are complex and powerful. What happens is one starts getting depressed, feel powerless and all that bad stuff.
    Yes, in fact, overthinking is a great way to put yourself in a downward depression spiral. But to this day I still apologize for and attempt to rationalize my emotions. But fuels existential depression, and lets you know just how much horrible stuff could happen. It's viciousl. But it's what ILEs deal with.

    And of course everyone expects you to be Mr/Ms Eccentric Optimist and wonders why the hell you are actually feeling something...because we're supposed to be like a benign malfunctioning robot or something, right?

    [hr:ed148673a9]

    Discussions like these make this forum worthwhile. I'm glad that we can engage in this discussion, hkkmr.
    OMG... the way you break up this post... maybe I'm Ti PoLR.

    For me, psychological functions are biological results. There's every reason to believe there's a biological difference.

    As far as the Ne/Ti loop at a bad enough level, it's drugs or getting lucky and finding some comfort and support.
    I would also like to note that ENTp might not be as attention starved as people think, we can just be very discriminating about what attention gives us the peace we need. The attention we get from our Dual or a suitable partner is calming and peaceful.. This is where we ILE want to be, our minds are usually in constant chaos, creative and destructive. The attention we usually get is not what we need, all it does is speed our thoughts, and I think eventually a crash. The crash is almost always handled privately, and there needs to be someone to provide Si/Fe, if there isn't, we can resort of self-medication.

    And the downward spiral of Ne/Ti is only halted by crisis, either personal or public.

    Note not all ENTp will get to these points, sometimes a supportive family environment/etc will prevent many of the problems from occurring. A supportive family environments may provide the necessary psychological care for all personality types.

    I don't know if this is true, but from what I've learned and read, a person really only needs 1 truly supportive relationship in their life. There was no difference in the happiness level of people with multiple supportive relationships versus a single one.

    I wonder how LII's feel about this as they have the same conscious functions?
    i missed this conversation for some reason. i agree with the Ne/Ti emotion-analyzing process. god what lengths i'll go to in order to avoid actually dealing with my feelings by feeling them. i really have trouble just getting to it.

    on how IM's affect this:

    Ti: from an istj, their Ti helps a lot. they have a way of making things seem stupid and little. their Ti sucks all the gas out of my Ne. lol. from an intj, their stronger Ti refutes my creative Ti, which also takes some gas out of my ideas.

    Se: from an estp, this makes me want to fight and at times feel dominated and like i want to get out from under. from an esfp, it's energizing and kind of empowering.

    Fi: from an infj, they usually hit the nail on the head and i feel ashamed of myself. you have to be careful how much you listen to them or you'll end up feeling like shit. from an isfj, it's like yaaahhh, get away.

    Ni: this is pretty calming esp from an infp. they make everything seem like it will go away eventually. plus they convince you that if you just change a couple of things, easy things, then everything will be OK.

    Te: the only time this helps is when you are not thinking about the facts clearly. so if you write things down on a piece of paper like a defense attorney then you see the error of your thinking. usually though i do this myself. i usually cannot stand to listen to a Te dominant try to help me with my feelings/Ne/Ti vortex. Te works better for my once i've resolved my feelings and i am ready for action. then Te advice is good.

    Si: it certainly helps to have one's feet rubbed after a bad day. or a nice meal made. but i have never had anybody in my life doing these things. so this is a frustration since i can't tell if it's really my dual seeking.

    Fe: esfj and enfj Fe helps a lot. like they can simply put me in a better mood, which changes my whole attitude and stops Ne/Ti in its tracks. then i can go back to my crazy thoughts and look at them more reasonably. really any reasonable dosage of Fe helps a lot, so infp's and isfp's would be included here as well. all you Fe dominants give me a lot of help.

    Ne: more Ne is like the last thing you need at these times. Ne's place is for when you're basically over it and thinking more positively about what's coming next.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    misutii's Avatar
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    Default Re: entp or enfp

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    It's not that women or "feelers" are more emotional, they deal with emotions differently...
    Fair enough, although I'm alluding to Rick DeLong's theory of intergral types: specifically, for men and for women. Also, I'm talking about higher levels of oxytocin and other "emotion" hormones. But, I understand what your getting at. (Semantics is a biotch.)

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    For me almost all emotion is a intruder/visitor/guest in the house... for others emotions might be like family, if they weren't around it wouldn't feel comfy. I know more then once I've been blindsided by emotion, like boom.. I'm in love, or boom... I'm angry.. it could be years later... because at the time the event that caused the emotion, I didn't feel it or i blocked it away.
    That hits close to home. I know exactly what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    I have a way of looking at function that I don't want to discuss until I learn more socionics, but it's very close to what I'm reading right now, I just wish I could access the Russian, my dad's fluent in Russian, but he can't translate it to English.
    Hey, I'd like to hear what you have to think. Nothing gets me going more than a fresh perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Anyways to me... my emotions are a delayed reaction.. for the feeler the emotions might hit in a second or a minute... but for me... it takes a hour, a week, a year or a decade. Or... when I experience some media that mirror the situation and elicits the reaction, except when I'm viewing the Media, there is no fear and no audience so I can actually feel.. rather then block. It also takes a long time to get over a unwanted emotion.

    Also, the use of Ne/Ti to resolve emotions, I don't believe this to be the case. Because often times, the cause/root/solution to the emotion simply does not exist. Do you sit in a Ne/Ti loop forever pondering the impossible. Also, one might understand the reason why is angry, but does that take the anger away?
    Yes, I do sit in a , loop forever. It's awful. It never works. I just carry that baggage around until it slowly fades. I never meant to suggest that doing that is an effective way to deal with feelings, but it's what I do nevertheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    I think that if one only uses Ne/Ti to address feelings, there is no relief to be gained.. especially when the emotions are complex and powerful. What happens is one starts getting depressed, feel powerless and all that bad stuff.
    Yes, in fact, overthinking is a great way to put yourself in a downward depression spiral. But to this day I still apologize for and attempt to rationalize my emotions. But fuels existential depression, and lets you know just how much horrible stuff could happen. It's viciousl. But it's what ILEs deal with.

    And of course everyone expects you to be Mr/Ms Eccentric Optimist and wonders why the hell you are actually feeling something...because we're supposed to be like a benign malfunctioning robot or something, right?

    [hr:32d495a2a3]

    Discussions like these make this forum worthwhile. I'm glad that we can engage in this discussion, hkkmr.
    OMG... the way you break up this post... maybe I'm Ti PoLR.

    For me, psychological functions are biological results. There's every reason to believe there's a biological difference.

    As far as the Ne/Ti loop at a bad enough level, it's drugs or getting lucky and finding some comfort and support.
    I would also like to note that ENTp might not be as attention starved as people think, we can just be very discriminating about what attention gives us the peace we need. The attention we get from our Dual or a suitable partner is calming and peaceful.. This is where we ILE want to be, our minds are usually in constant chaos, creative and destructive. The attention we usually get is not what we need, all it does is speed our thoughts, and I think eventually a crash. The crash is almost always handled privately, and there needs to be someone to provide Si/Fe, if there isn't, we can resort of self-medication.

    And the downward spiral of Ne/Ti is only halted by crisis, either personal or public.

    Note not all ENTp will get to these points, sometimes a supportive family environment/etc will prevent many of the problems from occurring. A supportive family environments may provide the necessary psychological care for all personality types.

    I don't know if this is true, but from what I've learned and read, a person really only needs 1 truly supportive relationship in their life. There was no difference in the happiness level of people with multiple supportive relationships versus a single one.

    I wonder how LII's feel about this as they have the same conscious functions?
    i missed this conversation for some reason. i agree with the Ne/Ti emotion-analyzing process. god what lengths i'll go to in order to avoid actually dealing with my feelings by feeling them. i really have trouble just getting to it.

    on how IM's affect this:

    Ti: from an istj, their Ti helps a lot. they have a way of making things seem stupid and little. their Ti sucks all the gas out of my Ne. lol. from an intj, their stronger Ti refutes my creative Ti, which also takes some gas out of my ideas.

    Se: from an estp, this makes me want to fight and at times feel dominated and like i want to get out from under. from an esfp, it's energizing and kind of empowering.

    Fi: from an infj, they usually hit the nail on the head and i feel ashamed of myself. you have to be careful how much you listen to them or you'll end up feeling like shit. from an isfj, it's like yaaahhh, get away.

    Ni: this is pretty calming esp from an infp. they make everything seem like it will go away eventually. plus they convince you that if you just change a couple of things, easy things, then everything will be OK.

    Te: the only time this helps is when you are not thinking about the facts clearly. so if you write things down on a piece of paper like a defense attorney then you see the error of your thinking. usually though i do this myself. i usually cannot stand to listen to a Te dominant try to help me with my feelings/Ne/Ti vortex. Te works better for my once i've resolved my feelings and i am ready for action. then Te advice is good.

    Si: it certainly helps to have one's feet rubbed after a bad day. or a nice meal made. but i have never had anybody in my life doing these things. so this is a frustration since i can't tell if it's really my dual seeking.

    Fe: esfj and enfj Fe helps a lot. like they can simply put me in a better mood, which changes my whole attitude and stops Ne/Ti in its tracks. then i can go back to my crazy thoughts and look at them more reasonably. really any reasonable dosage of Fe helps a lot, so infp's and isfp's would be included here as well. all you Fe dominants give me a lot of help.

    Ne: more Ne is like the last thing you need at these times. Ne's place is for when you're basically over it and thinking more positively about what's coming next.
    for the record socionic explanations by entps are officially my favourite to read!
    INFp-Ni

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    thanks misutii, that's a really nice thing to say.

    @hkkmr: don't worry. the longer you live and the more problems you go through the more you'll start to access help from others. if you know their type, then you'll be able to figure out how helpful their lead functions are.

    the only reason i can really comment is because of my divorce and my incessant need to constantly discuss and understand my feelings about it and my feelings about the ramifications. :wink:

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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