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Thread: Differences between LSE-ESTj and LSI-ISTj

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    Default Differences between LSE-ESTj and LSI-ISTj

    Let's discuss differences between these two types.
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    I wrote this in Megan's ISTj thread in Beta --

    "Easily and quickly" --

    The ISTj, when voicing his opinion, is more likely to make "to the point" and clear statements, "this is so", while the ESTj is more likely to sound more flexible, reasonable or, to some, "insecure".

    The ISTj is more likely to seem calm, unflappable, someone who will keep his head in most situations - unless in periods of extreme uncertainty, when he will seem extremely agitated and a nervous wreck. Very little in between. The latter is rare, though.

    The ESTj is more likely to make a restless impression, someone who can't seem to be able to stay quiet for long, a "I should be doing something" feel.

    The ISTj is easier to picture as an inspector, policeman, or soldier. The ESTj, as a boy scout or middle manager.

    The ESTj is more likely to either need a very rigid schedule and follow preset appointments - or tend to get focused into what needs to be done at the moment and lose track of his schedule. The ISTj dislikes putting things off, but he's more comfortable with working without a preset schedule.

    The ISTj man (women are different) is likely to present a mostly low-emotion personality most of the time, but he can "let go" in social occasions or when enjoying a joke or very angry. The ESTj is more likely to present a polite, friendly but very slightly shy persona most of the time, and not "let go" like the ISTj.
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    -when an ISTj doesn't like you, he doesn't make it known and prefers to keep it to himself. He will give you a cold shoulder and ignore you like a stranger. On the other hand, an ESTj will tell you how he feels about you, but still treat you with respect.

    -When you are in conflict with an ISTj, he argues with you to the extent that he makes sure that you agree with him totally that you are in the wrong in the first place. An ESTj will make his point clear to you and have a "take it or leave it" attitude. He sees petty arguments as immature.

    -An ISTj will regard your creativity or idealism as impracticality. An ESTj will appreciate it and wish that he has the ability to be creative and innovate too.

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    It would be good if more ISTjs and ESTjs were regularly posting around here, it would be great to hear their take on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    The ESTj is more likely to make a restless impression, someone who can't seem to be able to stay quiet for long, a "I should be doing something" feel.
    I know the sort of arrogant/restless looking ESTj type with his chest "stuck out like a bird in front of him" as someone once described it but are not the E(S)Tj type very relaxed and less restless looking?


    The ISTj is easier to picture as an inspector, policeman, or soldier. The ESTj, as a boy scout or middle manager.
    I am a bit lost with this description I think. Middle mangers often come across as the inspector type and so forth.

    I guess we may just have to slap them across the face and see how they respond to decide their type like Xox suggested.
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    I'd say that the Merry/Serious divide is pretty easy to identify. I've yet to meet an ISTj that was really "serious" when working and not open to conversation. With ESTjs, instead, there is always a vibe of "I'm doing this task now, do not disturb me". ESTjs are generally more prone to violence than ISTjs especially in "public" settings (ISTjs can be more demanding of their close ones). Some finer distinctions are that ESTjs tend to have bad relations with ESTps whereas ISTjs tend to have good relations with ESTps. This seems to be nonnoticeable but it is actually evident if you consider how an EST-EST quarrel is very easy to notice - spot the ESTj and the ESTp and you're done.

    You can also try to look at the aggressor part: ESTjs are generally puzzled by somebody that makes fun of them/banters with them/etc, whereas ISTjs are kind of pleased and will gladly reply back - this means that you do not need to slap them on the face.
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    My very unprofessional opinion about this:

    Try to use some when in company of them. The ISTj person will say something like "I don't want to listen to you" or will just remain silent. The ESTj will say "You are crazy!" or "How can you guess what could happen?".

    ISTj don't like to wear impressive clothes. On the other hand, ESTjs like expensive cars, watches, spending money.

    ESTjs smile a lot, but it's easy to notice that their smile is a fake.

    ESTjs try to show that they are cool and knowledgeable, but they know nothing about cinema, music, sport, science. They lack imagination. They just succeed by working very very hard and this is their main strength. ISTjs are humble.

    ESTjs want to control "people", but ISTjs want to control "things".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I know the sort of arrogant/restless looking ESTj type with his chest "stuck out like a bird in front of him" as someone once described it but are not the E(S)Tj type very relaxed and less restless looking?
    Perhaps. That's one interpretation of how subtypes work. I think that an ESTj-Si would resemble more an ESFj than an ENTj, but not necessarily be less restless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I am a bit lost with this description I think. Middle mangers often come across as the inspector type and so forth.
    Ah yes, but some of them come across as a more benevolent, paternalistic figure, who do their jobs and help you if you need doing yours. That's what I meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I'd say that the Merry/Serious divide is pretty easy to identify. I've yet to meet an ISTj that was really "serious" when working and not open to conversation. With ESTjs, instead, there is always a vibe of "I'm doing this task now, do not disturb me". ESTjs are generally more prone to violence than ISTjs especially in "public" settings (ISTjs can be more demanding of their close ones). Some finer distinctions are that ESTjs tend to have bad relations with ESTps whereas ISTjs tend to have good relations with ESTps. This seems to be nonnoticeable but it is actually evident if you consider how an EST-EST quarrel is very easy to notice - spot the ESTj and the ESTp and you're done.
    Hmm, I agree only partly with the "do not disturb me" distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You can also try to look at the aggressor part: ESTjs are generally puzzled by somebody that makes fun of them/banters with them/etc, whereas ISTjs are kind of pleased and will gladly reply back - this means that you do not need to slap them on the face.
    Yes, that I agree with - in social situations only; in professional settings the ISTj may see that as deliberately challenging or undermining his image/authority, unless it's very obvious it's for fun.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    -when an ISTj doesn't like you, he doesn't make it known and prefers to keep it to himself. He will give you a cold shoulder and ignore you like a stranger. On the other hand, an ESTj will tell you how he feels about you, but still treat you with respect.

    -When you are in conflict with an ISTj, he argues with you to the extent that he makes sure that you agree with him totally that you are in the wrong in the first place. An ESTj will make his point clear to you and have a "take it or leave it" attitude. He sees petty arguments as immature.

    -An ISTj will regard your creativity or idealism as impracticality. An ESTj will appreciate it and wish that he has the ability to be creative and innovate too.
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You can also try to look at the aggressor part: ESTjs are generally puzzled by somebody that makes fun of them/banters with them/etc, whereas ISTjs are kind of pleased and will gladly reply back - this means that you do not need to slap them on the face.
    Very true, all of this.

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    I forgot a key difference.

    ISTjs are more likely to be anxious about the future. They tend to either tell themselves that things will remain as they are, or to take quick action now about something they just found out about that may or may not happen in the future, or be gloomy about the future.

    ESTjs are more likely to take one day at a time and not think much about the future at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I forgot a key difference.

    ISTjs are more likely to be anxious about the future. They tend to either tell themselves that things will remain as they are, or to take quick action now about something they just found out about that may or may not happen in the future, or be gloomy about the future.

    ESTjs are more likely to take one day at a time and not think much about the future at all.
    Oh yeah. ISTjs are keen on the Ne polr telltale question - but what if? If you get closer to them you are going to hear it alot.
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    ISTjs barely show any emotion. Even I can't really tell what they're feeling. It's like they would show emotions if they consciously had any.

    ESTjs seem to be insulted by some things that I casually say (super-ego relations), but they try to hide it. It's still very easy to spot. It's like they subconsciously try to tell me exactly how they are feeling so I'd be more considerate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    ISTjs barely show any emotion. Even I can't really tell what they're feeling. It's like they would show emotions if they consciously had any.
    I think this is only partly true. ISTjs are ready to adopt the Fe environment around that. If you tell jokes or fool around in a moment and manner that the ISTj finds appropriate, he's quick to get into the mood. And in my experience, ISTj women in particular tend to adopt a more Fe personality - as in Segolene Royal's case, for instance.

    However, ISTjs won't be likely to try to steer the Fe mood around them themselves - they expect others to do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    ESTjs seem to be insulted by some things that I casually say (super-ego relations), but they try to hide it. It's still very easy to spot. It's like they subconsciously try to tell me exactly how they are feeling so I'd be more considerate.
    I think this makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    ISTjs barely show any emotion. Even I can't really tell what they're feeling. It's like they would show emotions if they consciously had any.
    I really wonder what kind of ISTjs you have met. I personally can tell very easily what they are feeling. Both men and women. They easily respond to humor and engaging behaviour, as well as loud laughter. It's far harder to tell what an ISFj is feeling for example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    ISTjs barely show any emotion. Even I can't really tell what they're feeling. It's like they would show emotions if they consciously had any.
    I really wonder what kind of ISTjs you have met. I personally can tell very easily what they are feeling. Both men and women. They easily respond to humor and engaging behaviour, as well as loud laughter. It's far harder to tell what an ISFj is feeling for example.
    This has been my experience, too.
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    Default Differences between LSE (ESTj) and LSI (ISTj)

    Dear all,

    I have a little question and I hope you’ll be able to help me out on this.

    What are the differences between LSE (ESTj) and LSI (ISTj)?

    I am already aware of a topic which covers this, but what I’d like to look at are more the function/dichotomy distinctions. This is because, IMO, it is easy to get too caught up in behaviour of types (which can be difficult to distinguish), whereas, at the function/dichotomy level, the distinctions can sometimes be much simpler and easy to spot.

    Many thanks.

    Yours,
    Five/Tanzhe

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    What exactly are you looking for?

    • Beta | Delta


      LSI seeks , and inspects people and things to see where they stand in terms of their chosen system. Hiearchal.

      LSE seeks , and is more interested in people working together smoothly (manager-like). More of a delta individualness, than a collective alpha/beta Fe atmosphere



      |
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    difference:

    all the istj's I know are shy and don't like to be around people. they usually make jokes that are not funny.

    the estj's are fun and talkative. they usually make jokes that are funny.

    similairity's:

    they are both hard workers, they both complain about rules etc.


    dichotomy: well as they differ in attitude (extraversion / introversion) it's probably best to look at their "shyness", which I explained above.

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    LSI is more SLE-like

    LSE is more SLI-like

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    LSI is more SLE-like

    LSE is more SLI-like
    well because they are mirrors i would think so too, but in my real life experience, the first statement isn't true at all, although the second statement seems more clearly to be true.

    maybe i've just met the wrong LSI's...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    LSI is more SLE-like

    LSE is more SLI-like
    well because they are mirrors i would think so too, but in my real life experience, the first statement isn't true at all, although the second statement seems more clearly to be true.

    maybe i've just met the wrong LSI's...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    LSI is more SLE-like

    LSE is more SLI-like
    well because they are mirrors i would think so too, but in my real life experience, the first statement isn't true at all, although the second statement seems more clearly to be true.

    maybe i've just met the wrong LSI's...
    I think he made the statement because he knows the community and that they have an accurate picture of SLI/SLE, rationality/irrationality, and extrovert/introvert. Given this understanding, you should be able derive information about LSI/LSE. If you cannot tell the difference I think you have not been observant. You see and can observe all 16 types anytime you go to a populated public area. I don't understand the notion that socionics is mysterious. I think we have let the complexity of some of the material confuse us so much that we forget we are simply talking about people.
    asd

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    I have serious issues with differentiating LSI-s from LSE-s using analytical methods, through analyzing their informational structure, function usage and so on, and personality, temperament, reinin dichotomies and so on. The only way I'm able to differentiate between them is through intertype relations where it becomes instantly clear which is which.

    For some reason I kept identifying LSI-s as LSE-s. I did not know those people, just had a general impression of them. After actually interacting with them it became clear they were not LSE-s no matter how much the appeared to be to me. And regarding that, I have yet to meet a LSI that actually fits the descriptions of them, the personality and behavior things, so I discourage using that. IMO if you want to differentiate between the two put a beta NF with them and watch what happens.

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    For me, it's how they express their anger.

    An ESTj (and ISTp) gets mad, and they go on this barrage of attacks. And they stay mad longer. It's like everything you do is wrong, and they have a shorter fuse than an ISTj. Lot of billowing and unneeded advice.

    ISTj gets mad, it's like "O_o WTF...", they may or may not say that, but that's their reaction. It's more along the lines of "What would make you do that?"

    I also find ISTj's to be more independant than ESTj's. They're also more inclined to be cheered up. Like they seem more playful.

    Life's not fair.
    ISTj: "O_o WTF, It's not my fault"
    ESTj: "LIFE JUST ISN'T FAIR, SO WHAT?!?!?!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePeddler
    For me, it's how they express their anger.

    An ESTj (and ISTp) gets mad, and they go on this barrage of attacks. And they stay mad longer. It's like everything you do is wrong, and they have a shorter fuse than an ISTj. Lot of billowing and unneeded advice.

    ISTj gets mad, it's like "O_o WTF...", they may or may not say that, but that's their reaction. It's more along the lines of "What would make you do that?"

    I also find ISTj's to be more independant than ESTj's. They're also more inclined to be cheered up. Like they seem more playful.

    Life's not fair.
    ISTj: "O_o WTF, It's not my fault"
    ESTj: "LIFE JUST ISN'T FAIR, SO WHAT?!?!?!"
    This is aligned with my experiences with the types. When an ESTj zeroes on you, everything you do is wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by he died with a felafel
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePeddler
    For me, it's how they express their anger.

    An ESTj (and ISTp) gets mad, and they go on this barrage of attacks. And they stay mad longer. It's like everything you do is wrong, and they have a shorter fuse than an ISTj. Lot of billowing and unneeded advice.

    ISTj gets mad, it's like "O_o WTF...", they may or may not say that, but that's their reaction. It's more along the lines of "What would make you do that?"

    I also find ISTj's to be more independant than ESTj's. They're also more inclined to be cheered up. Like they seem more playful.

    Life's not fair.
    ISTj: "O_o WTF, It's not my fault"
    ESTj: "LIFE JUST ISN'T FAIR, SO WHAT?!?!?!"
    This is aligned with my experiences with the types. When an ESTj zeroes on you, everything you do is wrong.
    it is also aligned with my experiences with ISTjs. nice way of differentiating
    I don't understand the need for being sarcastic. Anyway, every differentiation in personal relationships is personal, by definition.
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    ESTj
    *more likely to be nicknamed "slavedriver"
    *enjoy individual sports more than team sports
    *nice smile
    *more likely to take up leadership positions
    *more self-centered
    *more likely to be selfish and possessive of a relationship even after they had broken up with someone else.
    *more flexible with rules and regulations; do not follow them in verbatim
    *good in everything they do as compared to ISTjs; seems like they are too perfect to be true on the surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    ESTj
    *enjoy individual sports more than team sports
    *more self-centered
    Eheh. Those are tricky. Would you say that being individualist is the same as self-centered? I think LSI-s are more group orientated, but that doesn't mean they're less self centered, know what I mean?
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    Some comments give me the impression that people often confuse ESTjs with ISTjs, partly another legacy of MBTI.

    I think one of the best ways of differentiating them is this --

    Both ISTjs and ESTjs are likely to make a quiet, reserved impression when dealing with people they don't know well on a one-to-one basis. However, the ISTj is more likely to "let go" and enjoy group party atmospheres. The ISTj is the guy who suprises those who thought he was "quiet" by joining the fun, dancing, acting a bit silly etc in a big party. The ESTj is likely to remain reserved on such occasions.

    The ISTj is coldly efficient when doing something but he's ready to "let go" and joke with someone who cracks a joke, even someone he doesn't know well. The ESTj will remain subdued, however, the ESTj is likely to become more talkative and open with individuals as he gets to know them better.

    In real showdown or crisis, the ISTj is likely to be much more ruthless than the ESTj. However, daily, the ESTj is more agitated and active than the ISTj.

    A lot of the above contradicts what many may think, with the MBTI types in mind. But that's what makes sense if you look at the quadras and functions.

    For a good portrayal of what many ESTjs are like , Matt Damon's character in The Good Shepherd - and please note that I am talking about the character, not Damon himself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    However, daily, the ESTj is more agitated and active than the ISTj.
    I don't think so. More active yes, more agitated, no. When ISTjs have no Ni support, they can get really agitated on a constant basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    -An ISTj will regard your creativity or idealism as impracticality.
    Depending on the context. Some may also find creativity highly amusing and enjoy whimsical expressions of imagination ... especially during their free time. And the ISTjs I've known, who even test so, may enjoy responding to your ideal expressions with their own lofty standards in kind, as a point of rapport.

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    PotatoSpirit's Avatar
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    I guess I should answer having an ESTj father... but I think my judgment in family issues is very clouded.
    All you guys said seems correct. I could add that he can naturally start talking to anyone, telling funny stories, or something about his work or whatever, while I can only small talk through huge efforts. That has to be the easiest difference to spot, although I'm not sure how type related it is.
    LSI

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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit
    I guess I should answer having an ESTj father... but I think my judgment in family issues is very clouded.
    All you guys said seems correct. I could add that he can naturally start talking to anyone, telling funny stories, or something about his work or whatever, while I can only small talk through huge efforts. That has to be the easiest difference to spot, although I'm not sure how type related it is.
    You have an ESTj father? Assuming he is correctly typed, wWould you care to engage FDG in discussion so as to determine whether or not FDG might also be an ESTj?

    Just a thought. It could be fruitful ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralsilky
    You have an ESTj father? Assuming he is correctly typed, wWould you care to engage FDG in discussion so as to determine whether or not FDG might also be an ESTj?

    Just a thought. It could be fruitful ...
    I would, but it's gonna take a whole lot of time before I can type someone through the internet. And then there is the family clouding. Maybe if I see him this December.
    LSI

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    What I've noticed, briefly:

    LSE:
    -High-energy, dynamic, always on-the-go
    -More noticeable tenseness or anxiety; mood seems "taut"
    -Focus on practicality, mobility, and flexibility - "Whatever it takes to get the job done."
    -Tends to fall back on formality when unsure


    LSI:
    -Stern, stable, low-key but in control
    -Calm, imperturbable exterior, always seems to "have it together"
    -Focused on stability, efficiency, and reliability - "Do it once, do it right."
    -Tends to fall back on brusque manners when unsure
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    My foolproof way to identify between the two: Blast them with


    Dress pretty, play dirty ღ
    Johari
    Nohari

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    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    I was taking a course recently. The main lecturer was an ESTj woman, a phycist and there is a profesor of thermodynamics that I know is an ISTj.

    The ISTj started talking about acoustic refrigeration and I spoted an inconsistency in what he was saying. He said that acoustic systems use "electromagnetic energy", which for people who has some background is physics, is false, because mechanic waves are not the same as electromagnetic waves.

    So I raised my hand and asked the question to him, on wheter which one of both was he talking about. I immediatly realized that I hit his PoLR (weak ability to conceptualize) as he started to become nervous and, trying to defend himself from the hit, continued saying nonsense. Fortunately, the ESTj ended up with "no, it's mechanic waves".

    My impressions from both:

    -ISTj
    Polite, reserved, low key.
    Smiling when on the "spot", very dry otherwise.

    -ESTj
    Energetic, imaginative, practical.
    Smiles a lot. Fe role is evident. However, Fe is lacking because she throwed an inapropiate (=hurting) comment time to time.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

    You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life.
    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    My foolproof way to identify between the two: Blast them with
    Indeed.


    You will melt an ISTj....

    Are you the one who said no emotional manipulation worked on their ESTj teacher? Or was that another beta NF?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    I think I have the bluntness of the ESTj and the forcefulness of the ISTj, and that's about it.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    LSE: wants a normal, comfortable, average, peaceful life
    LSI: wants a life of successfulness, achieving large goals

    LSE: wants to take care of people
    LSI: wants to command people

    LSE: concerned with responsibility
    LSI: concerned with duty and honor

    LSE: values kindness
    LSI: values friendliness

    LSE: wants he and his partner to support each other
    LSI: wants he and his partner to encourage each other

    LSE: earthy
    LSI: authoritative

    LSE: hates talking about the long term future
    LSI: loves talking about the long term future

    LSE: do it all
    LSI: know it all

    LSE: needs a playful partner to help him relax
    LSI: needs a spirited partner to give him direction
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    LSI - very picky about how things are done and doesn't want suggestions of how to do things differently. If you want to do something differently, you'd better have done some research and be prepared to prove your point - don't just throw ideas out there.

    LSE - likes to be given ideas of how to do things differently - likes to have ideas thrown out and will evaluate the suggestions himself/herself. Has specific idea of what end product will look like but not particularly concerned about how you do it.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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