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Thread: Why does Phaedrus think I'm an ENTp?

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    Default Why does Phaedrus think I'm an ENTp?

    Just wondering.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Because you said you were good at spatial reasoning and he thinks that only irrational types can think synthetically.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    It has been pointed out that you look a lot like young Albert Einstein.
    It is a weighty argument. :wink:


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    I still don't see how he can be seen as an extroverted type, let alone irrational.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    The only thing I am certain of is that MysticSonic is not an INTj. He is clearly an irrational type of some sort. That is obvious from the things he has said about himself in various threads, for example in one of the early discussions about his type on this forum. Unfortunately Cone, by the sheer strenght of his conviction, seemed to have persuaded MysticSonic (and others) to believe in the faulty INTj hypothesis at that time.

    It is true that he looks a lot like the young Einstein, and that argument has some strength to it, but that is no final proof. Many things suggest INTp or ENTp (though I am not saying that other irrational types are totally impossible). But MysticSonic didn't seem to fit INTp in the Reinin dichotomies too well, and considering the fact that ENTps and INTps often get similar test results in some tests, and that they also sometimes identify with the same type descriptions, ENTp is one of the most likely hypothesis.

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    It seems like the obvious answer to MS's question is that MS and Phaedrus seem to be two different types even though they both say they're INTj, therefore one of them must not be INTj, and Phaedrus of course assumes that couldn't be him.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by loudlurker
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Because you said you were good at spatial reasoning and he thinks that only irrational types can think synthetically.
    Is there any truth to that?
    It depends who you ask... the crappy thing about socionics is that no one really has any good definition of the functions, only a system of functions that everyone has a different impression of when they see it (which is why we will never agree on Einstein's type either). Which is also why Phaedrus goes on about how MysticSonic can only be an irrational type, but maybe MysticSonic would say, "Hey, maybe that stuff is related to Ti instead..." and the debate goes on forever.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    "The only thing I am certain of is that MysticSonic is not an INTj."

    "He is clearly an irrational type of some sort. That is obvious from the things he has said about himself in various threads, for example in one of the early discussions about his type on this forum."

    What things? One must remember that I was 14 at the time of that discussion and possessed very little knowledge of myself and my own identity.

    "Unfortunately Cone, by the sheer strenght of his conviction, seemed to have persuaded MysticSonic (and others) to believe in the faulty INTj hypothesis at that time."

    I was actually convinced I was INTp for a much longer time after that thread ended. I have only come to a firm conclusion on my type within the last year or so and therefore cannot be said to have a solid opinion on it before then.

    And Phaedrus is INTj now?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by loudlurker
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Because you said you were good at spatial reasoning and he thinks that only irrational types can think synthetically.
    Is there any truth to that?
    It depends who you ask... the crappy thing about socionics is that no one really has any good definition of the functions, only a system of functions that everyone has a different impression of when they see it (which is why we will never agree on Einstein's type either). Which is also why Phaedrus goes on about how MysticSonic can only be an irrational type, but maybe MysticSonic would say, "Hey, maybe that stuff is related to Ti instead..." and the debate goes on forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by flower
    I had to do a few IQ tests for jobs before, it was funny coz I used to get really good on the spatial, memory and patten recignition ones (with my Si ), but I used to take a while to figure out the wordy and language ones.
    LOL, that's what I meant.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    We've noticed a change in UDP's writing over the past few days. Much... more physics minded. Perhaps we will see a similar change in Mystic Sonic in years to come?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    What things? One must remember that I was 14 at the time of that discussion and possessed very little knowledge of myself and my own identity.
    That is not so important. I can analyze what you say about yourself even if you don't know your own identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    I was actually convinced I was INTp for a much longer time after that thread ended.
    But one time or another after that thread had ended you decided to state in your signature that your type was INTj, and you kept that signature for at least a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    I have only come to a firm conclusion on my type within the last year or so and therefore cannot be said to have a solid opinion on it before then.
    Your INTj signature is gone ... Does that mean that you no longer think that you are an INTj? You admit that you once thought that you were an INTp, but your way of saying it might suggest that you no longer think that either ... So, ENTp seems more and more likely as a good guess of your current opinion of your own type, doesn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    And Phaedrus is INTj now?
    I don't think so ... therefore I am not ...

    Any disproof of the Reinin dichotomies, the temperaments, the intertype relations, or anything else directly relevant in the theory of Socionics, are still welcome. Then I might change my mind about my type. But otherwise I cannot think of anything of importance in the socionic material that does not suggest that I am an INTp.

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    wow young einstein looks like a lot of male ENTps I have known.

    It seems as though many pics of Mystic make him appear xNTp.

    Was there a private conversation between phaedrus and mystic about being ENTp?

    Phaedrus why didn't you consider ENTj for yourself?

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    I don't understand why a smart person like MS listens to something said by a fool like Phaedrus.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    It seems like the obvious answer to MS's question is that MS and Phaedrus seem to be two different types even though they both say they're INTj, therefore one of them must not be INTj, and Phaedrus of course assumes that couldn't be him.
    It would be more likely for Phaddy to be INTj and MS to be INTp, by your reasoning, I agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Phaedrus why didn't you consider ENTj for yourself?
    Of course I have considered every possible type in my typing process, but ENTj has never been a serious candidate. It is one of the types that can be dismissed rather easily as impossible. I don't fit the type descriptions, I know for sure that I am an introvert, I definitely don't have an EJ temperament, etc, etc.

    Why should I consider ENTj for myself? What's the problem? Since almost everything in Socionics suggests INTp, why shouldn't I conclude that I am an INTp?

    (I know several real life persons that are ENTjs for sure. And since I can see clearly that we are not the same type but still understand each other easily, that is yet another argument for INTp in my case.)

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    "That is not so important. I can analyze what you say about yourself even if you don't know your own identity. "

    What exactly are you analyzing that would lead you to come to such a conclusion?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I don't understand why a smart person like MS listens to something said by a fool like Phaedrus.
    LMAO

    MysticSonic is obviously INTj.

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    Well... I'll take some responsibility for this mess because I concluded you were not Einstein's type some years ago... but with the information I had them I couldn't have concluded otherwise, now could I?

    I've changed my mind on that point and here's why.
    What things? One must remember that I was 14 at the time of that discussion and possessed very little knowledge of myself and my own identity.
    That is definitely personal knowledge. You are referring to your own knowledge at a specific point in time. Accepting is always, always used to analyze the state of another function at a point in time. I think it's an honor... you can make sense of Einstein's code and improve upon his work. (though I suggest working perhaps with UDP on that point because he's your perfect mirror. Do you like UDP?) On the other hand, you'll also face similar struggles as he did, the question of the unified field theory being key at this day and age....

    What do you think of Einstein? Is your opinion positive, or negative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "That is not so important. I can analyze what you say about yourself even if you don't know your own identity. "

    What exactly are you analyzing that would lead you to come to such a conclusion?
    Unless you were totally misdescribing yourself in that early thread about your type, you come across as a clear irrational type. Everything points to that. I don't remember the details, but anyone can still read it, can't they? And nothing you have said after that have given me any reason to change that conclusion. You have presented no evidence whatsoever that you should be an INTj -- and that's really my only point here.

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    Mystic sonic and I have had many conversations privately and it seems that we are very much alike. A good amount of our every conversation consists of "me too!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Mystic sonic and I have had many conversations privately and it seems that we are very much alike. A good amount of our every conversation consists of "me too!"
    Yes. That comes as no surprise to me. It has always been difficult for me to see you as an INTj. If I would have to make a choice about your type I would say that I don't think that you are an INTj. From my perspective ENTp or INTp seem more likely for you too, Ms. Kensington.

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    I could see INTp or INTj. I remember reading a post by him and noticing a strong disconnection with the surrounding atmosphere(whether emotional or logical) and a very precise succinctness. Typical of IXTX in general.
    asd

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    Alot of my conversations with Ms. K. end up with us almost reading each other's minds. Though MS and I don't always agree superficially about one aspect of something or another, we always know where the other one's coming from. I feel very akin to both of them. Did all three of us just happen to mistype ourselves as the same thing before even ever conversing with one another? Some sort of wacky coincidence? Or are the three of us the type we claim to be.

    You can't just randomly change the categories of things just because they don't fit in with the model you've created. If there is a dissconnect, change the model.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    Alot of my conversations with Ms. K. end up with us almost reading each other's minds. Though MS and I don't always agree superficially about one aspect of something or another, we always know where the other one's coming from. I feel very akin to both of them.
    That suggest that either all three of you are mistyped, or that none of you is an INTp. I think the latter option is more likely than the former, so I see that as argument for the hypothesis that MS is an ENTp.

    To change the whole model of Socionics based on the rather unreliable impressions one gets from people's posts on this forum is a very radical step in my opinion. There is probably no need for that.

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    I was talking about the personal model you seem to be using. I'll say little about your unwillingness to hear other people out though, as I myself am also a very stubborn person.

    Also I think the three of us are INTj, not INTp. As for speculations on your own type I have no idea, but you shouldn't change other people's types, so that the type you want to be is more convincing to you.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    I was talking about the personal model you seem to be using. I'll say little about your unwillingness to hear other people out though, as I myself am also a very stubborn person.

    Also I think the three of us are INTj, not INTp. As for speculations on your own type I have no idea, but you shouldn't change other people's types, so that the type you want to be is more convincing to you.
    I am not doing that. And I don't base my estimations of people's type on how they write or any perception I might have of what function(s) they may or may not be using in their posts. I totally agree with misutii that that is a very unreliable method. In some obvious cases it might give us a hint, but we should never give it so much weight as an argument for someone's type that that single subjective perception, and interpretation of that perception, overrules every other argument. I primarily analyze what people say about themselves, not how they say it. I compare what they about themselves with what I know about the types, I analyze what they say about their own behaviour, etc.

    If all the three of you are INTjs (assuming that you refer to yourself, MS, and Ms. Kensington), then the phenomenon that MS describes his own behaviour as P must be explained somehow. Maybe he misdescribed himself in that earlier thread, maybe there is some other explanation for it, I don't know. I can only analyze the information that is available to me, and of course I cannot be sure that he is not an INTj. The only thing I have said is that he has given me no reason to believe that he is, because nothing in the information he has presented to this forum (but maybe I have missed something important) has suggested INTj.

    If MS is convinced that he is an INTj, it doesn't matter what I think he's type is. And if he is not yet 100 % sure of his type, why shouldn't he welcome every possible information input and/or analysis on which type he might be? Is not that the whole point in starting a thread about your own type?

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    My behavior back then is easily explained Phaedrus: I was insane. Though I neglect my surrounding environment and external affairs like Ps do, my internal thought structure is much more rigid and rational
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    My behavior back then is easily explained Phaedrus: I was insane. Though I neglect my surrounding environment and external affairs like Ps do, my internal thought structure is much more rigid and rational
    Many INTps have said the same thing about their internal thought structure. Maybe you can determine that if you are an INTj, but if you were an INTp I doubt that you would with any certainty.

    So, you strongly believe that you are an INTj now, is that correct? Why isn't that in your sig anymore? And I still don't think that you look like an INTj on V.I. Have you posted an updated, more accurate description of yourself somewhere? I hate to be misinformed, so in that case I'd like to read it. I don't want to have an incorrect view on your type, if that can be avoided.

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    "So, you strongly believe that you are an INTj now, is that correct?"

    Yes.

    "Why isn't that in your sig anymore?"

    I don't remember ever having that in my sig.

    "And I still don't think that you look like an INTj on V.I."

    Neither do I, but VI isn't everything

    "Have you posted an updated, more accurate description of yourself somewhere? I hate to be misinformed, so in that case I'd like to read it."

    Sorry, I don't really have time to write a full description of myself, but I can say that I'm not an ENTp with absolute certainty, as I am not an extrovert. So I suppose if I am not a J, nor an E, and apparently not an INTp, then I would be some other IXXp type, none of which I am. This tells me that there's something fatally wrong here and that one of the above conclusions is correct; I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that your conclusion, based upon matters I don't consider essential to J-dom, is incorrect. Therefore, I am an INTj.

    Are you really certain that your understanding of the irrational/rational dichotomy is correct?

    The thing is, I identify most strongly with INTj descriptions, with INTj individuals, with the INTj's functional preference, and essentially all things INTj, so I think it's pretty safe to assume that I am an INTj.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    I don't remember ever having that in my sig.
    You certainly had. We even discussed in public why you thought that you were an INTj, and our different understanding of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Neither do I, but VI isn't everything
    No, but it is something. And if the V.I. does not fit, one should become suspicious.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that your conclusion, based upon matters I don't consider essential to J-dom, is incorrect. Therefore, I am an INTj.

    Are you really certain that your understanding of the irrational/rational dichotomy is correct?
    I am certain of at least one thing: Your dismissal of the importance of this dichotomy is contrary to how it is described and understood in Socionics. It is much more likely that my understanding of the irrational/rational dichotomy is more correct than yours.

    By the way, are you a morning bird or a night owl, Mystic? So, far I have never met or heard of an INTj (or any other rational type) that has been a natural born night owl. You would be the first exception to that general pattern if you are an INTj -- for you are an night owl, arent you? If you are a morning bird by nature, then I concede and admit that you are probably an INTj. (The same argument is relevant for you too, oyburger and Ms. Kensington. As INTjs you should be expected to be morning birds.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    By the way, are you a morning bird or a night owl, Mystic? So, far I have never met or heard of an INTj (or any other rational type) that has been a natural born night owl. You would be the first exception to that general pattern if you are an INTj -- for you are an night owl, arent you? If you are a morning bird by nature, then I concede and admit that you are probably an INTj. (The same argument is relevant for you too, oyburger and Ms. Kensington. As INTjs you should be expected to be morning birds.)
    Sorry, I am not, but I am an INTj. So Mystic Sonic would be the second exception. But why should we be morning birds? Does it matter when we wake up or go to bed as much as the "INTj" adherence to the sleep cycle?

    But Phaedrus, just to let you know, Mystic Sonic's belief in his INTj-type has as much validity as your insistence upon your nature as an INTp. He believes that he is (along with others of his assumed type), so he is. He identifies with the type's preferred functions, descriptions, and quadra, so he is. This is similarly constructed argument as yours.
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    "Confused You certainly had. We even discussed in public why you thought that you were an INTj, and our different understanding of things. "

    I remember the discussion, not the sig.

    "No, but it is something. And if the V.I. does not fit, one should become suspicious. "

    Ok.

    "I am certain of at least one thing: Your dismissal of the importance of this dichotomy is contrary to how it is described and understood in Socionics. It is much more likely that my understanding of the irrational/rational dichotomy is more correct than yours. "

    I believe that one's subtype has great influence on the matter of appearing rational or irrational. I cannot say that anything other than functional preference, and perhaps Reinin dichotomies(which I do not wholly support) can be concluded from the J/P dichotomy.

    "By the way, are you a morning bird or a night owl, Mystic? So, far I have never met or heard of an INTj (or any other rational type) that has been a natural born night owl. You would be the first exception to that general pattern if you are an INTj -- for you are an night owl, arent you? If you are a morning bird by nature, then I concede and admit that you are probably an INTj. (The same argument is relevant for you too, oyburger and Ms. Kensington. As INTjs you should be expected to be morning birds.)"

    Is that a joke?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Sorry, I am not, but I am an INTj. So Mystic Sonic would be the second exception.
    That is important if it is true. You are sure that you are a night owl, Logos? Just to check, you have a natural tendency to stay up later and later in the evenings (your day and night cycle is longer than 24 hours) if you don't have any obligations to think of? And you work best in the afternoons and the evenings, and your body temperature is usually relatively high when you go to bed and relatively lower when you wake up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    But why should we be morning birds? Does it matter when we wake up or go to bed as much as the "INTj" adherence to the sleep cycle?
    I'm not sure, but it seems to be a temperament thing. It is a general pattern that I have seen in every real life person that I am confident that I have typed correctly. It would be too convenient if there are no exceptions, so there probably are, but so far I haven't seen any clear exceptions to the pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    But Phaedrus, just to let you know, Mystic Sonic's belief in his INTj-type has as much validity as your insistence upon your nature as an INTp. He believes that he is (along with others of his assumed type), so he is. He identifies with the type's preferred functions, descriptions, and quadra, so he is. This is similarly constructed argument as yours.
    There is a difference. I have only criticized MysticSonic's belief that he is an INTj based on the information he has presented to this forum (and I have been aware of). And he admits that we had described himself incorrectly (if I undertand him correctly now). So, my conclusion that he could not be an INTj if that information was correct seems to have been well-founded.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    I believe that one's subtype has great influence on the matter of appearing rational or irrational.
    Okay, but that is a personal opinion of yours (maybe shared by some other members of this forum) that has no support in the socionic literature (at least not any that I am aware of).

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    I cannot say that anything other than functional preference, and perhaps Reinin dichotomies(which I do not wholly support) can be concluded from the J/P dichotomy.
    Okay, but then you are wrong. The J/P dichotomy is related to your biological temperament. For example, some very important aspects of your general behaviour and energy rythm can also be concluded from that dichotomy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Is that a joke?
    No, it's not.

  36. #36
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    I don't know about expected to be a morning person, but I am one.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    There is a difference. I have only criticized MysticSonic's belief that he is an INTj based on the information he has presented to this forum (and I have been aware of). And he admits that we had described himself incorrectly (if I undertand him correctly now). So, my conclusion that he could not be an INTj if that information was correct seems to have been well-founded.
    Amigo, in order to function in the real world, sooner or later you'll have to admit being wrong.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    I don't know about expected to be a morning person, but I am one.
    Good. That is in line with how I see you. You fit conveniently into the general pattern I see when looking at several different models at the same time. Also, your results on Enneagram tests point towards INTj. I have no reason to doubt that you are an INTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    My behavior back then is easily explained Phaedrus: I was insane. Though I neglect my surrounding environment and external affairs like Ps do, my internal thought structure is much more rigid and rational
    Is that a P trait?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    waking up early as opposed to late cannot possibly be a trait related to rationality/irrationality and/or temperament and this argument should not necessarily determine one's type; there are way too many people that would not fit that designation.

    i can stay up until three in the morning when i have nothing to do; i think i could be classified rather safely as a late sleeper. my dad, who i believe to be LIE (and all other alternatives that i hold as plausible possibilities, mainly LII and LSI, are rational as well) also fits squarely under this designation.

    these data are totally meaningless on the grand scale of things, yet, if they are correct (which, frankly, given the amount of highly questionable data you have presented, you have no business disputing) then your theory is contradicted. not a very solid theory at all; even if you don't realize it, the claim is highly absurd.

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