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Thread: Observing Alpha "Childlike-Caring" Relationship & Enneagram Question

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    Default Observing Alpha "Childlike-Caring" Relationship & Enneagram Question

    Topics:
    1 Observing an ESFj (female) INTj (male) relationship
    2 Observing a caregiver - infantile relationship
    3 Considering implications of my type (at least Etype) based on my reactions to the above



    The luxury has been mine to observe a couple over the last few days very closely.
    Something is bothering me about LIIs lately.... perhaps it is just the intuitive ones

    At first, I thought the LII was some sort of a sensory type, as he was very physical with his companion, in terms of touching and holding. But later I saw it to be... infantile behavior.... clinging. It soon became clear that, this man with a high pitched voice, and soon-enough-blatantly-apparent Fi role, was actually a hardcore LII. The way he clung to the ESE was like a child to its mother. His hands almost always reached out towards her, or her leg, or her hand or foot (when sitting on a couch), to hold onto it, and rub it or hold it in an infantile way.

    The ESE seemed to react like a mother, a mother 'putting up with' the needs of her child. But I suppose she was enjoying it too. She had her child to care for and worry about. It so reminded me of a single mother (or a just a mother alone with her kid), who brought her kid to a party and was trying to socialize with it - She love her kid and enjoyed the party.

    I've never seen an LII act like this before... but then again I had(A). Maybe I just did not want to think it was so.... but if this is the norm for LIIs, then I cannot be one. It was so blatantly.... infant. Infantile. Something about showing your weaknesses and acting so infantile like that... displaying Se polr, and being so accepting to childish interaction.... it was kind of disturbing.

    (A)Seeing my LII friend act the same way around his friends, especially when he was sick, 'requiring' someone to look after him, and get him food when it was cold outside.

    I am wondering it that is the norm for LII-ESE relationships. I don't know if I could accept that --- if an ESE really likes to treat people that way, I don't know if I would be receptive enough to it. Have other LII-ESE relationships been so... infant-mother-like? Or have others seen a more mature rational alpha couple?


    PS: I don't think I'm feeling I need to change my socionics type, but I feel a lot more Enna-type 1, 1w9. (Both 5 ((5w4)) and 1 are very relative to me, but 1 is showing more now).
    I say I feel more like a 1 because I have developed after a long time some intense principles and living up to them in a dedicated way has recently beocome much more important, and actually happening, than ever before.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    At the same time, my drive and motivation is purely 5, and not at all 1--- not at all "seeking to avoid doing something wrong based on others standards". So I feel more type one and even ISTj-ish, but I spent the last 5 months developing my credo. So really, it almost seems like I have become more type 5 as well --- not wanting to get engulfed by others, seeking independence, etc.

    Fives are motivated by the need to gain knowledge and to be independent and self-sufficient. They observe life from a distance, guard their privacy and space, and avoid being engulfed by others. They feel more safe and in control when thinking and analyzing than when in their feelings. They are individualistic and not influenced by social pressure or material possessions. Attention naturally goes to intrusions and detaching to observe.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    I am wondering it that is the norm for LII-ESE relationships. I don't know if I could accept that --- if an ESE really likes to treat people that way, I don't know if I would be receptive enough to it. Have other LII-ESE relationships been so... infant-mother-like? Or have others seen a more mature rational alpha couple?
    I have seen a more mature LII-ESE couple, but they were also in their 50s.

    I don't think what you described is the "norm" for LII-ESE relationships. It seemed a bit overboard. You might well ask whether some extreme Aggressive-Victim relationships - with the Aggressor behaving in a very dominant way, the stereotypical "macho" way as in Stanley Kowalsky - is the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    At the same time, my drive and motivation is purely 5, and not at all 1--- not at all "seeking to avoid doing something wrong based on others standards". So I feel more type one and even ISTj-ish, but I spent the last 5 months developing my credo. So really, it almost seems like I have become more type 5 as well --- not wanting to get engulfed by others, seeking independence, etc.

    Fives are motivated by the need to gain knowledge and to be independent and self-sufficient. They observe life from a distance, guard their privacy and space, and avoid being engulfed by others. They feel more safe and in control when thinking and analyzing than when in their feelings. They are individualistic and not influenced by social pressure or material possessions. Attention naturally goes to intrusions and detaching to observe.
    This description has an "overlap" with 1 too.

    I think you misinterpret 1 if you think it's about "seeking to avoid doing something wrong based on others standards". One of 1's core motivations is self-improvement, achieving "perfection". That is based on 1's own standards; now the 1 may decide that one of his/her standards for perfection is precisely to be perfect according to society.

    UDP, as far as the Enneagram goes, you make both an 1 and a 4 impression at times, which makes sense. In that case to identify with 5, too, is not surprising but I think you are misinterpreting 1's motivations a bit.

    If you are having problem with identifiying with Infantile, you should see if you think that Aggressor bits better -- probably not, which is consistent with your being Ti IJ, close to the Alpha/Beta dividing line.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Self-hating INTj!

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    That doesn't sound like a typical caregiver/infantile set of behaviors. And I'm not just talking about Delta - I know an ESFj/INTj couple too (the woman is the INTj in this case). I know an ISFp (m)/ENTp (f) couple too. It isn't about clinging or anything. It's more about focus - like the focus is on the "infantile" person's needs. Is that seat comfortable? Would you rather sit here? Are you thirsty? Is that cold enough? I don't mean to make it sound like it's constant because it isn't, but there is a focus on the needs of the infantile person. From what I've seen, the main difference between Alpha and Delta in this respect is that for Delta caregivers it seems very subtle - like they're taking care of things and while they're at it they'll take care of you too, and for Alpha caregivers they're more obvious about doing it specifically to make the other person feel comfortable and happy. But that's only from observing mainly those two Alpha couples and three or four Delta couples so I'm interested in hearing other people's experiences.

    Any couple can get clingy with each other if they're recently together, uncomfortable and overcompensating, or feeling particularly romantic that day.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Self-hating INTj!
    • Not at all.
      After spending my life in observance, truth seeking, the last 2 years in particular have been concerned with finding the 'best' way for me to go about my life. What I discovered for myself has, within the last month, cumulated to a point where there is a very clear code, a clear line for myself. It is in some ways idealistic, perhaps, but it is the logical 'perfection', so to say, of my investigation. Thought ultimately leads to action, and I cannot avoid that any longer.

      In some ways I can see LSI aspects appearing, as I have been becoming more aware of people who are 'conscientious', and had an interesting conversation with an EIE the other day. Also in terms of type 1, there is a new take on 'anger' that reminds me of E1.

      Actually using anger as a personal tool however. Much of this last month has been highlighted with a greater control of my mental state, and focus as well. It is as if I've finally gained access to the controls... being able to reset to mental clarity and reduce the play of emotions. Short, momentary bursts of 'anger', I am finding, can be used as thrusters, allowing me to stay in the right direction. There is no need to use if often, maybe once or twice a day, and it is not so much as "anger" or "hate", but just a sort of counter-emotional charge. It is somewhat like neutralization, or knowing the correct thing to add so as to balance out.

      Just to be clear, my optimal state is not anger at all, rather it is a focused indifference, or calmness. I do not like to be emotionally agitated, especially if I have to disagree with someone - that tends to feel like straying.

    • Being LII:
      I do not think I could legitimately be LSI, as much of my 'beliefs', etc, Ti core, is refined by comparing various systems. In essence I have spent my entire life trying to find the correct way to structure reality. However in this process, passive observance has become impossible - I would not be able to continue my study, to progress with it, if I did not 'live it'. That is the point I am at right now, on the verge of rewriting scripts. It is actually a very clear choice to make, and I can tell when I am making it or not, and how much (Ti Ne) of the potential I am allocating/utilizing.

      [list:b38821645b]
    • Other functions:
      [list:b38821645b]
    • Se (polr): Se has been the most interesting function to deal with, as I do not see it as a threat in any way. Se, as I see it, is essentially the cruicible. When Se arrives, it is the indicator of how well prepared I was, and the only angst I have is when I did a poor job in being prepared for the moment. Preparation of the moment is a result of the cumulative efforts leading up to it. People do not bother me with Se so to say, it is just the most 'severe' of critics. Se in terms of discipline and living it, following your code etc... is probably the biggest reward, or most gratifying victory to make.[list:b38821645b]
      Place of Least Resistance
      weak
      producing

      The place of least resistance is your weakest function. It makes you uncomfortable, and can be tied to certain personality problems you have. You won't make an issue about this function, in fact you try to avoid it. Criticism in this point is felt the worst.

    Instead of avoiding it, but rather, being proactive about it with Ti and Ne, the reward of the polr seems to hold the greatest sense of accomplishment. I have not always been one who is disciplined and structured, but getting to that point, it has been enjoyable. I can see how it was a subconscious goal of mine for a long time.
    So in one sense, I would consider it a 'conquering' of the polr. I've of course not mastered it, but I know the parameters of the situation, so in one sense it's only a matter of time.

    [*]Si (HA): Si is interesting in that Si is still there, it just has a different form. I do not enjoy straight up pleasure. But I am sure Si is related to the logical perfectionism that is associated with what I am discussing. Si has taken a different meaning from what it used to seem like to me.
    [*]Fe (DS): As I described above, I have recently gained access to a greater control over my emotional state, in terms of being able to reset it when I choose to do so. Fe is probably my strangest function in terms of interacting with others, as combined with seeking an Fi role, it is the area where I am most 'receptive' or influenced by others. "F" in general is what I seem to have the least control over, so I feel more inclined to guard against it, aka psychological distance. This is why I prefer interacting with others in a setting where there are goals to be accomplished. Otherwise, I feel like I am wasting my time with better things to do than just ... talking.
    [*]Fi (role): Again as above, I described how "F" is difficult. Constantly seeking my Fi role from other people is annoying, as I really have little idea of where I stand with most people, and sudden shifts in loyalties or such are very strange.

    The use of a partner who has greater competence in the realm of F is definitely apparent to me.[/list:u:b38821645b][/list:u:b38821645b][/list:u:b38821645b]


    Finally, the most interesting personal conclusion, one that I really just discovered yesterday, was actually 'feeling' the difference between Xi and Xe functions. It became quite clear why Xe functions are more high energy and outward focused - it presented me with the metaphor of being on the outside of a cave, particularly when it is windy out or stormy -- a great deal of action, higher receptivity, more sensory involvement on an external level. Xi was like being on the inside of the cave, quieter, less energy, less involvement.

    It was very clear, as I tried "using" different functions, the shift between internal and external. Ti is a tremendous analysis, internal process of ordering, requiring concentration, and a very specific energy pattern, or vibration --- in comparison to Te, which was much higher energy. Focus of the eyes feels different: Ti was more down, and inward, less focused on what was in front of you (Se), Te is eyes open, more ready to digest and interpret facts.

    Those are poor and short descriptions but the point is being able to actually 'feel' the difference and know it. It was a very interesting moment of understanding, one I will follow up on. If I have anything interesting to report I might make another thread about it later.



    PS: My discussion of polr probably has something to do with maslow's pyramid.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    As for infantile caregiver relationship, perhaps a caregiver is what I need anyways, as I have a horrible time actually relating to others. So perhaps that is an area where I would accept being taken care of.


    Back to the couple,
    they are an older couple as well. You know how women prime sexually later in life --- she actually told me "have safe sex!" before I returned to college, which before she would have never said. She has blossomed into someone much more apparent in her sexuality - it likely was repressed for several years.
    The couple has known each other for probably a year and a half, and started living together 5 months ago maybe.
    It just seems odd to see older people acting in such a clear cut infantile-caregiver fashion.

    The ESE in particular seems to have one of those mock "Oh, well I'll put with this" attitudes, but really she seems to enjoy it. The LII strikes me as an old-man-baby.


    Seeing the LII act that way, and another LII I know act that way, personally it was a little disturbing. Comparisons to others is limiting of course... it just threw. Seeing ESE's so receptive to it, and LIIs so naturally acting in that way, it generates some doubts
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Ah UDP! It appears that you may have finally experienced the transcendental function, ...but I'd like to know more! How did you come by this decision? What demon did you need to overcome?

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    How did I come by what decision?

    The demon has something to do with uncertainty about what to do "right now".
    I have had a relapse today, being on break (coming home has made me walk into a Fi minefield... it is easy to get off-set). Being out of my IJ setting (college) where I was becoming towards a well-oiled machine, where I had everything fairly well figured out. But two days of forced inaction (family events where I couldn't "do" anything), has left me.... weakened again.

    I would be happy to discuss things with you, but I must ... do something first.


    PS: I am sure it has something to do with consciously seeking to be aware of how other functions work, moving towards equanimity:being in control of all your faculties (which you can only do by knowing them). Socionics was a great tool for this process. Also, I have a feeling the routes there may be different for the different temperments.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    PPS: Does the trancendental function have anything to do with the following:

    ISTj and INTj are both variations on . Neither is more or less Ti than the other.
    However it 'feels' like by knowing what Ti really is, the 'identity' of being limited to INTj must be discarded.

    It seems like "knowing one function completely" would leave room for knowing other functions completely.



    There is also a feeling of activation energy... of more energy being involved in the process, as opposed to how things used to be.


    More later though, I just wanted to write this post as notes to myself. I'm sure we can discuss things via pm if you would prefer.
    UDP out
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    In Identical relationships it's common for one to "feel" the mistakes of the other. I also wince when I see an INTj making a fool of himself in public--it happened just today, in fact.

    But come on, don't take it so seriously. Many of us have our own "quests for perfection", even though most, including me, do not describe it as such. I suppose it's for the same reason I don't use the word "logical" on a regular basis; "makes sense" is more mundane, and therefore more effective for communicating with others.

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    Sounds like a guy was being playful with his girlfriend. Big deal really, you're playing all this other stuff in your head. From your description, I think they would have been cute to watch.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    UDP, the fact that you make such a big deal out of this "infantiles are so DISGUSTING and aggressors are so COOL" makes me think you are more likely infantile. It seems like you have some insecurities in that area and you feel the need to push your aggressor side a bit too much. I might be wrong and it comes naturally for you. Anyways you emphasize your aggressor qualities too much for it to feel natural (somewhat similar to what many ENTps do). Of course there have been some Se-types who liked to emphasize their aggressor side in public (e.g. Herzy). But all the ISTjs here are generally trying to look very peaceful, tactful and polite. Essentially trying to promote the image of "a nice person" instead of "nasty aggressor who doesn't hold hands".

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    UDP:
    Put it this way: I can put in front and skip on ice. It's like forming a sort of bond with the surrounding world. And of course there is the immediate ostracism by like, 1/4 of the population; seriously, if I say 'hi' to them on the street, they won't say 'hi' back. It's somewhat like a cold war....

    I suspect you'll be having these troubles with the traditionalists... at the same time, anarchy-minded people will probably become more appealing and helpful. Say 'hi' to liberals: we may be busy, but we're usually interested in what you have to say. And the conservatives will be trying to swing you toward their view. Play the referree between us. You can tell either of the two by a sense of mystery and uncertainty surrounding your relations with them. (and this will, if you pay attention, be completely unrelated to type.) There will be some fairness considerations to be considered; justice is the primary constant. If they do you a favor, be sure to reciprocate. And always play honest broker, never take sides. ...It can be difficult (for you) to distinguish liberals from conservatives, but you'll notice, if you pay attention, a definite split. The conservatives will usually be more preppy, and the liberals more lax and carefree in their appearance. And the liberals will be into all sorts of crazy new ideas you never heard of.... The question is not whether these ideas are right -- they usually are -- but should they be pursued at this point in time. That's for you to decide.

    With regards to traditionalism, there are two halves, 1/8th of the population each. (roughly one for every reformer, which is what your side seems to be called.) These are, quite frankly "the rich" and "the poor." The rich are, in a word, the aristocracy: self made men who believe it in the capacity of anybody to become "one of the elite." They like to craft methods by which to access may be awarded to this elite -- if you've ever heard of the "power elite", this is it. They either are aristocratic-like, powerful people (my mom uses the phrase "halls of power" a lot) or are supportive of such an elite. They are outwardly rather... elegant... at least the powerful ones are. They use IQ tests to put the "higher order" crosstypes into powerful, determinative positions, and they will always be the ones to argue for the existence of these "seperation regimes". You'll be rather critical of them, probably, although they will probably feel defensive towards you. ...These guys are the people for who tax cuts exist: the Republicans have bought their loyalty through the cuts and it is for this reason that Bush's numbers continue to hover at ~36%, reflecting the near-total unity of conservatism allied with aristocratic traditionalism.

    The other half of traditionalism is the poor. By poor I mean plebians, non-proletarians (proletarian effectively being another name for aristocratic traditonalism). My father is one of these, a man of the Appalachian Mountains to the very end; for all intents and purposes, a hillbilly. But by no means are all plebians hillbillies: they are cultural defenders and champions of festival and folk. "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer" is their motto. Although they will seek success in business, their very distaste for any kind of far-reaching power precludes the scope of their enterprises. In truth, they seek their soul in the proletariat, and their ill-fated ventures are a means to the proletariat's condition. You may have heard of the rags to riches stories of the low-class pauper or Cinderella marrying the higher-class rich girl or the handsome prince; or indeed, of the Prince and the Pauper themselves. These are plebian-proletariat traditionalist fantasies, which if you pay attention, you will find neither the conservatives nor the liberals entertaining in any seriousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    UDP, the fact that you make such a big deal out of this "infantiles are so DISGUSTING and aggressors are so COOL" makes me think you are more likely infantile. It seems like you have some insecurities in that area and you feel the need to push your aggressor side a bit too much. I might be wrong and it comes naturally for you. Anyways you emphasize your aggressor qualities too much for it to feel natural (somewhat similar to what many ENTps do). Of course there have been some Se-types who liked to emphasize their aggressor side in public (e.g. Herzy). But all the ISTjs here are generally trying to look very peaceful, tactful and polite. Essentially trying to promote the image of "a nice person" instead of "nasty aggressor who doesn't hold hands".
    I do not think I could be any other attitude than infantile.
    Especially given my dual seeking.

    That display of such ... weakness ... was unappealing to me. Just so blatant. It really doesn't have anything to do with 'infantile' or any other dichotomy set, it was just a sort of ... glorifying incompetence or weakness.

    Like an ESFj being utterly clueless about how something works --- and not even WANTING to know how. That is the same sort of avoidance that strikes me. Relying on others too much
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I think I actually understand what you wrote tcau.

    (You speak in a very intuitive-Ti-subjective way, but I think I can make the correct connections in the references you present)

    The more times I read it the more I think I get what you mean, especially in terms of the first pargraph. "skip on ice", and what you said about sayign 'hi' to people too.....


    more tomorrow, when I can read, and after I have sleep.


    Sleep is more important to me now than I've before realized, it's value has increased.
    It is required for the activity. The awareness.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I think you could be INTj-ENTp. Try reading some Einstein and see if it makes sense.

    Do you think an inquisitive ESFj-ISFp would be appealing to you? I think my sister is one of those.

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    I don't really know your crosstype theory well enough to know exactly what you mean by an "ESFj-ISFp", but it doesn't sound too bad. Sounds very caregiver-y.

    I'll check out einstien when I get the next opportunity.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    I think you could be INTj-ENTp. Try reading some Einstein and see if it makes sense.

    Do you think an inquisitive ESFj-ISFp would be appealing to you? I think my sister is one of those.
    Sooo, you're trying to set UDP up with your sister, eh?
    That was what I thought tcaudilllg meant after I read his post.

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    I remember Expat mentioning that some infantile types seem to be into "baby talk", actually one of my ESFj friends occassionally launches into baby talk too with certain people. I wonder if the average INTj would appreciate that sort of thing?
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Apparently many LIIs actually enjoy being babied. I find it uncomfortable. I appreciate tenderness, but it only works for me if it is gone about in the right way. Tenderness from many is interpreted (by myself) as weakness*. Tenderness from one is something else. I would almost say that tenderness in the latter situation is necessary.



    * - I have becoming increasingly uncomfortable with people doing things for me, or paying for things for me, even returning home for break
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Apparently many LIIs actually enjoy being babied. I find it uncomfortable. I appreciate tenderness, but it only works for me if it is gone about in the right way. Tenderness from many is interpreted (by myself) as weakness*. Tenderness from one is something else. I would almost say that tenderness in the latter situation is necessary.

    * - I have becoming increasingly uncomfortable with people doing things for me, or paying for things for me, even returning home for break
    You remind me more and more about my INTj friend who has also considered being ISTj (but then he goes back to INTj because well he is really intuitive and not good at forcing people to do stuff). Anyways he has dated an ESFp and actually liked it but their "life rhytms" and attitudes to some extent were pretty much impossible to fit together so he decided to split with her. Then he dated an ISFp but she was somehow too submissive for him. Perhaps too much on the caregiver side. Then there was an ENTp but apparently something was missing there too. Not to mention his mother is ESFj and they are very close but still he is not convinced about duality with her because she lacks a bit in regards to intellectual interests and is again too much on the caregiver side (but not as badly as the ISFp). It is hard to be an INTj

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    Why I am not a true LSI:

    • - In no way do I suffer from Ne polr
      [list:f7bf70496d]-- It is more difficult for me to figure out what to do in certain situations, having to compare multiple systems of thought, or approaches. In fact, I would go so far to say that it is via Ne that I have refined my Ti to be so encompassing. ((This is not to say an LSI could not do it with Se, they would just have a different approach --- from the moment, out. My approach has been from outside and above (Ne with loads of Ti), to have a more thorough understanding of the moment))
      -- as for applying pressure to other people, and telling them when they are wrong, or aggressiveness in general, it has been a learned trait. The sheer reality of people consistently failing to something as well as it could be done ( ) has lead me to have less and less qualms about taking charge (INTJ).

    - I do not appreciate Beta drama (or in other words: pure or traditional aggressor/victim interaction). I do not enjoy arguing, especially with people who are close to me.
    - I do not mind being 'taken care of', so long as it is not done in such a way that I feel like I am being overtly babied.
    The bottom line about caregivers is this: they are the best by process of elimination:
    aggressors don't stand a chance unless they can be subtle (ISFj most likely possibility);
    Victims are generally unappealing to me - I would ween them off of their dependency on emotional involvement (beta) or 'lack there of' (gamma), with ENFj being the highest possibility;
    Infantiles are not appealing to me, unless INFjs. INFjs are generally quite attractive to me in terms of both character and demeanor, and of course their loyalty is something I appreciate. However most of the time with all infantile, there is a sense that they are looking for a caregiver, or maybe would do better with one, may be more compatible. I'm not sure.
    So finally, we have caregivers. ISTp may be the closest to impossible out of all the types, ESTj maybe... but they usually come across as they are trying to one-up me for some reason. It seems like they really think me an INFj, in retrospect, but I do not appreciate them as much as an INFj would. So back to alpha. ISFps are generally pretty decent, they just get way too caught up in being irrational and chasing . I have a feeling I could psychologically push them in the right direction. So we conclude with ESFj...

    In one sense ESFjs are at the same time the most appealing and least appealing type. What is least appealing about them is when they stop desiring to understand things, shut off their mind, and feel comfortable with 'not knowing' something, or caring to know how it works. They don't have to master everything, no, but when the will to understand vanishes, they become remarkably shallow. This can even go so far as to become a tremendous liability, as their gullibility and other naiveties can make their decision making process quite unsound. (Ti dual seeking, I know...). The positive side of the ESFj is coming from a culture that appreciates intelligence, and has rewarded making good decisions, etc. I know the Si subtype is prone to making 'rash decisions', etc.
    So it would appear that my task is to find an ESE that comes from a culture/family I respect.

    I was fortunate, or unfortunate, enough to encounter such an ESFj once, and it probably spoiled me, as I saw an ESFj's true potential, or at least on the high end of it. It left me with a huge burn, probably scarred, but at least I know that such types of ESFjs exist.

    Finally, I find it very funny that in subtype descriptions, it is noted that a Ti subtype appreciates[/list:u:f7bf70496d]
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I think it comes from being on the far end of the subtype scale. UDP is far Ti subtype, like I'm far Fi subtype. Which makes him a sort of aggressive infantile, LOL -- eh, hmm, that sounds funny, but you get what I mean.
    That's what I mean when I say Ti is alpha/beta
    Fi is gamma/delta
    There are 'aggressors' with those leading functions, as well as infantiles.

    Ne is delta/alpha, and the more Ne subtype, the more purely infantile-ish, IME, for LIIs.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    The chart does lean towards abstract
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Yeah Diana the conflict pairs don't make a lot of sense from my interactions with people.

    I think we could say that if place X is where the dual is and duality has the highest percentage of being predicted as a good relationship, then the more we get far from it the less the predictability of the relationship (ex. conflict could be both "good" and "bad" for example)
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Yeah Diana the conflict pairs don't make a lot of sense from my interactions with people.

    I think we could say that if place X is where the dual is and duality has the highest percentage of being predicted as a good relationship, then the more we get far from it the less the predictability of the relationship (ex. conflict could be both "good" and "bad" for example)
    Perhaps yes. How to proove this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Yeah Diana the conflict pairs don't make a lot of sense from my interactions with people.

    I think we could say that if place X is where the dual is and duality has the highest percentage of being predicted as a good relationship, then the more we get far from it the less the predictability of the relationship (ex. conflict could be both "good" and "bad" for example)
    Perhaps yes. How to proove this?
    Just my experience so far. I doubt it will ever be proven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Apparently many LIIs actually enjoy being babied. I find it uncomfortable. I appreciate tenderness, but it only works for me if it is gone about in the right way. Tenderness from many is interpreted (by myself) as weakness*. Tenderness from one is something else. I would almost say that tenderness in the latter situation is necessary.

    * - I have becoming increasingly uncomfortable with people doing things for me, or paying for things for me, even returning home for break
    You remind me more and more about my INTj friend who has also considered being ISTj (but then he goes back to INTj because well he is really intuitive and not good at forcing people to do stuff). Anyways he has dated an ESFp and actually liked it but their "life rhytms" and attitudes to some extent were pretty much impossible to fit together so he decided to split with her. Then he dated an ISFp but she was somehow too submissive for him. Perhaps too much on the caregiver side. Then there was an ENTp but apparently something was missing there too. Not to mention his mother is ESFj and they are very close but still he is not convinced about duality with her because she lacks a bit in regards to intellectual interests and is again too much on the caregiver side (but not as badly as the ISFp). It is hard to be an INTj
    I think it comes from being on the far end of the subtype scale. UDP is far Ti subtype, like I'm far Fi subtype. Which makes him a sort of aggressive infantile, LOL -- eh, hmm, that sounds funny, but you get what I mean.
    I don't see why a INTj (Ti) would further emphasise Se. Being a Ti subtype means you just have more Ti, it doesn't really mean that your polr is stronger. Atleast strong enough to over shadow/match Ne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by electric
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Apparently many LIIs actually enjoy being babied. I find it uncomfortable. I appreciate tenderness, but it only works for me if it is gone about in the right way. Tenderness from many is interpreted (by myself) as weakness*. Tenderness from one is something else. I would almost say that tenderness in the latter situation is necessary.

    * - I have becoming increasingly uncomfortable with people doing things for me, or paying for things for me, even returning home for break
    You remind me more and more about my INTj friend who has also considered being ISTj (but then he goes back to INTj because well he is really intuitive and not good at forcing people to do stuff). Anyways he has dated an ESFp and actually liked it but their "life rhytms" and attitudes to some extent were pretty much impossible to fit together so he decided to split with her. Then he dated an ISFp but she was somehow too submissive for him. Perhaps too much on the caregiver side. Then there was an ENTp but apparently something was missing there too. Not to mention his mother is ESFj and they are very close but still he is not convinced about duality with her because she lacks a bit in regards to intellectual interests and is again too much on the caregiver side (but not as badly as the ISFp). It is hard to be an INTj
    I think it comes from being on the far end of the subtype scale. UDP is far Ti subtype, like I'm far Fi subtype. Which makes him a sort of aggressive infantile, LOL -- eh, hmm, that sounds funny, but you get what I mean.
    I don't see why a INTj (Ti) would further emphasise Se. Being a Ti subtype means you just have more Ti, it doesn't really mean that your polr is stronger. Atleast strong enough to over shadow/match Ne.
    Well if you have more Ti then you have less Ne and so you have more Se. This doesn't mean Ne is overshadowed by the Se but there's clearly less of it in comparison to the INTj-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    It isn't about clinging or anything. It's more about focus - like the focus is on the "infantile" person's needs. Is that seat comfortable? Would you rather sit here? Are you thirsty? Is that cold enough? I don't mean to make it sound like it's constant because it isn't, but there is a focus on the needs of the infantile person. From what I've seen, the main difference between Alpha and Delta in this respect is that for Delta caregivers it seems very subtle - like they're taking care of things and while they're at it they'll take care of you too, and for Alpha caregivers they're more obvious about doing it specifically to make the other person feel comfortable and happy. But that's only from observing mainly those two Alpha couples and three or four Delta couples so I'm interested in hearing other people's experiences.
    Infantile-Caregiver is only true for alphas. Delta is a mix both behaviors.

    Delta NF are infantile about practical stuff, but they are very mature when it comes to nurture the "soul" of others. INFj, for example, excel in professions such as medicine because they not only know how to apply treatment properly, but they also have an parental attitude toward patients that is generally expected when we rely on others to take care of us. Also, real caregivers (ISFp and ESFj) only express such caring attitude when they like a person and can be sharp rejecting of those who they don't like. INFj, and ENFp to less extent, are much more objective about people and thus can give away a sense that they are more mature about making decisions which involve people.

    Delta ST are caregivers to some extent, but they are largely infantile inside. ESTj, for example, might criticize their INFj duals for not being realistic, for being "dreamers", but deep inside they admire them because they can easily do something ESTj cannot: be sincere to themselves. ESTj spend most of their lives repressing their impulses in an attempt to fit their own imposed ideals which involve giving away an impression of maturity. But if you get rid of such surfacey confidence what is left is a fragile creature that heavily depends on the emotional support of her partner who gives her life a purpose beyond being a mere problem-solving machine. Both ESTj and ISTp strive for this human value, which seems only delta NF can provide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    It isn't about clinging or anything. It's more about focus - like the focus is on the "infantile" person's needs. Is that seat comfortable? Would you rather sit here? Are you thirsty? Is that cold enough? I don't mean to make it sound like it's constant because it isn't, but there is a focus on the needs of the infantile person. From what I've seen, the main difference between Alpha and Delta in this respect is that for Delta caregivers it seems very subtle - like they're taking care of things and while they're at it they'll take care of you too, and for Alpha caregivers they're more obvious about doing it specifically to make the other person feel comfortable and happy. But that's only from observing mainly those two Alpha couples and three or four Delta couples so I'm interested in hearing other people's experiences.
    Infantile-Caregiver is only true for alphas. Delta is a mix both behaviors.

    Delta NF are infantile about practical stuff, but they are very mature when it comes to nurture the "soul" of others. INFj, for example, excel in professions such as medicine because they not only know how to apply treatment properly, but they also have an parental attitude toward patients that is generally expected when we rely on others to take care of us. Also, real caregivers (ISFp and ESFj) only express such caring attitude when they like a person and can be sharp rejecting of those who they don't like. INFj, and ENFp to less extent, are much more objective about people and thus can give away a sense that they are more mature about making decisions which involve people.

    Delta ST are caregivers to some extent, but they are largely infantile inside. ESTj, for example, might criticize their INFj duals for not being realistic, for being "dreamers", but deep inside they admire them because they can easily do something ESTj cannot: be sincere to themselves. ESTj spend most of their lives repressing their impulses in an attempt to fit their own imposed ideals which involve giving away an impression of maturity. But if you get rid of such surfacey confidence what is left is a fragile creature that heavily depends on the emotional support of her partner who gives her life a purpose beyond being a mere problem-solving machine. Both ESTj and ISTp strive for this human value, which seems only delta NF can provide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Apparently many LIIs actually enjoy being babied. I find it uncomfortable. I appreciate tenderness, but it only works for me if it is gone about in the right way. Tenderness from many is interpreted (by myself) as weakness*. Tenderness from one is something else. I would almost say that tenderness in the latter situation is necessary.



    * - I have becoming increasingly uncomfortable with people doing things for me, or paying for things for me, even returning home for break
    hmm.... thank heavens for the anonymity of the internet. anyway, since i am in a relationship with a Delta, i think i could add my two cents. yes, i find that i tend to be kind of childlike with him, and he seems to enjoy taking care of me, feeding me, looking out for traffic, worrying about my financial plans, etc. even though he knows and i know i can do all these things well on my own. physically, though i am more skittish. he enjoys touching and being touched - he's much more tactile than i am.

    now, in general , with people in general, i would never allow anyone to hover over me in this way, and consider it revealing weakness to behave like a child. but somehow, and i don't understand why, it's natural with him, and comfortable to allow a wholly trusted person to protect your weakness for you. but we aren't like this all the time. it's like, hm, like playing. and sometimes i boss him around as well, but it's all playful, like children, almost. it really is odd, when i think about it, and some might say out of character. but there you go.

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    Which delta type?

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    lol at the title of this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Which delta type?
    sorry, missed the question. an ST Delta - ISTp. btw, he can paradoxically be very needy at times, though, emotionally. needs to be reassured that he is loved, although he did have an atypical childhood, so i don't know how much is type and how much is not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirana
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Which delta type?
    sorry, missed the question. an ST Delta - ISTp. btw, he can paradoxically be very needy at times, though, emotionally. needs to be reassured that he is loved, although he did have an atypical childhood, so i don't know how much is type and how much is not.
    I have a close ISTp friend who is like this too. Once you get close, their needs become very apparent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    lol at the title of this thread.
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    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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