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Thread: Inhibiting coldness and role Fi in INTjs

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    Default Inhibiting coldness and role Fi in INTjs

    For a long time, I've been 'trained' to be more happy and emotionally expressive than I really am, and whenever I allow myself to act that way, I regret it later.

    Do any other LIIs know what I mean?


    The Filatova description is, I realize, who I am at best. Now, I can be cold and distant but still social and leadership orientated.
    But the habitual process makes me become more extroverted and socially flailing ....
    So it almost seems like a trick to still remain 'yourself'
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Re: Fi role inhibiting coldness

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    So it almost seems like a trick to still remain 'yourself'
    It definitely is.

    The most effective way for an INTj to use Fe is in service of Ti: you can't just be friendly and open for the sake of it, there has to be an introverted purpose involved. An INTj can capture an audience with conviction in the strength of his logic.

    On the flip side, I sometimes feel guilty for acting so sure of my beliefs--it's almost like I get off on explaining the logic behind them.

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    there is no self

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    How quaint.

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    I think a Fi role can make one feel guilty about being cold.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by science as magic
    there is no self

    bah, I know. But I get caught up in this illusion anyway.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I think a Fi role can make one feel guilty about being cold.
    I know, that's why I overcompensate.... and it's uncomfortable even further
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I think a Fi role can make one feel guilty about being cold.
    Actually, that's it exactly. But the fact of the matter is I AM "cold", so it is 'feeling guilty' about who you are, which is stupid. Feeling guilty about who you prefer to be. It is strange to put it that way, but it is so.




    -----


    I used to think S- issues were the only real problem for an LII, but it turns out those can be manged relatively easily if you make a point of it. Ethics by far seems to be most challenging, and most susceptible as well, as it is 'dual seeking' and 'role' --- that is where interacting with others can have the strangest impacts. For LII it is the realm of ethics.

    I almost wonder if it would be more proper to label "F" as the 'path of least resistance' for an LII (at least in terms of dealing with other people). In terms of dealing with other people, S, especially Se, has never been a factor for me --- only when Fi role cautioned me has it ever been 'traumatizing'.


    Hmmm
    Maybe "S" issues are personal, individual matters
    F issues are dealing with other people matters.

    I suppose that sounds kind of obvious, but for other types, like ESE,
    "Intuition" issues would be a personal matter that they have to deal with and overcome with
    "T" issues are issues they will have when dealing with other people, accepting information, etc.


    make sense to anyone?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Re: Fi role inhibiting coldness

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    For a long time, I've been 'trained' to be more happy and emotionally expressive than I really am, and whenever I allow myself to act that way, I regret it later.

    Do any other LIIs know what I mean?


    The Filatova description is, I realize, who I am at best. Now, I can be cold and distant but still social and leadership orientated.
    But the habitual process makes me become more extroverted and socially flailing ....
    So it almost seems like a trick to still remain 'yourself'
    I'm not sure I've ever regretted acting happy + emotionally expressive - I tend to regret the people who don't appreciate it instead. I feel like I've been trained to not act in such a way, rather than vice versa. Often I feel like the only time I can act happy etc. is when I'm by myself or with people I know quite well - that makes me restricted somewhat - I am unable to 'perform' for people I don't know, and yet I want a better audience .
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Well when I regret being emotionally expressive it's because i "lied" in some manner by conveying i felt a certain way when I did not. Still, I can be polite, but you can still tell if i am very happy for you or if i am just being polite.

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    There is something to say here, but I do not know how to go about it.
    Hopefully I shall see this post and remember in the very near future.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Don't rush your speech. Calm down and talk slow. even think about talking low.
    Notice the pitch of your voice -- the higher it is, the more you are letting your Fi/Fe/Ethics speak for you. Speak for yourself, think, and control your speech.

    I am waging a war on what I described above for myself. I'm tired of being sensitive to the emotional atmosphere of other people - I will take change and hold accountability for my methods of interaction.

    If that makes me unattractive as I'm not looking like a baby to an ESE, I don't care honestly. I can no longer tolerate Fi/Fe sensitivity changing how I speak my thoughts -- there is an insincerity that comes from this. I want no more of it.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    dual seeking is the latest (last?) hurdle, challenge.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    !!!! Disgusting.

    It happened to me again --- letting Fe dual seeking and Fe role make me appear 'soft' and flimsy.
    I really dislike that.


    I had an encounter with a bitchy ISTj... nothing against them, but it showed how my Se game was not strong at that point.


    Squall (Leonhart) was not an ISTj, that's for sure. (I'm warry to say ISTp, but either that or an extremely Ti INTj: I don't remember how he reacted to Fe). Now I really know what ISTjs are about - being narrorators, etc. I know I'm not an ISTj either, not at base anyways.

    ISTjs are much more expressive of their faults when they see them, and as such remain "inspectors" all the time.


    So how does an LII learn from ISTjs? Take control of Fe and Fi, and predetermine your emotional atmosphere. Do not go looking for other people's reaction - stop being so sensitive and trying to say the right, Fe appropriate thing so much. I find it most disturbing when I do that. Voice tones change, high pitched and weak. Focus on Ti and know whats going on in terms of Ne... don't commit to taking the Se polr -- do the work and maintain the IJ state. Pay attention to the feeling of constraing in your vocal chord area: the more tension you have, the more 'tightness' you feel, the more you need to relax, step back, and just concern yourself with Ti. Or think about what is coming next, so you are not too focused on that moment.*


    I write these notes to futher remind me in the future.




    * - INTjs in fact have immense concentration, and subordinate everything to what they are focusing on (which is why they can drive themselves to starvation for a cause). But in situations where is catching you off guard and making you into an Fe-Fi sensative and wary state, keep thinking about what will come next - think ahead. Do not allow yourself to get focused on the moment too much, especially if it is unfavorable. Map out the future so it can be more beneficial to youl.


    I thorougly dislike submitting my emotional atmosphere to other people.
    This post should be a memento. Emotional atmosphere is related to planning, and using both forms of intuition to protect yourself from emotional suceptibility.

    For LIIs, Se is the achillies heel, but not in and of itself - it leads to the soft underbelly of Fe and Fi. At least for me that is how it works for me.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Distance, restraint, cold.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    dual seeking is the latest (last?) hurdle, challenge.
    You're damn right it is, UDP
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Do not go looking for other people's reaction - stop being so sensitive and trying to say the right, Fe appropriate thing so much. I find it most disturbing when I do that.
    Fuck. I always do this.

    I'll get going on some topic of interest, and then in my head I'm running this secondary scan for reactions...

    -Positive? Yee-haw, keep going!
    -Negative? Mitigation-stat! Crisis-control; tertiary scan: "Do I care what they think?" No -> continue / Yes -> "So what do YOU think about that?" (compromise and initating common ground minimizes effects of initial offense.)
    -No reaction -> boredom? Disinterest? Reality-check: "How relevent is this topic anyway?" "Does past experience indicate ANYONE gives a shit what you have to say?"; respective results: "not very" and "no."

    I have found that a state of physical/mental activity can severely repress the above, annoying side of my internal monologue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Do not go looking for other people's reaction - stop being so sensitive and trying to say the right, Fe appropriate thing so much. I find it most disturbing when I do that.
    I think it works best when it's unconscious. IME, of course.

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    I can't stand it.

    I'll use it to the ends of making the system, the process run better. But on my own, when I am not paying attention, it is one thing I greatly dislike about myself.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    I can't stand it.

    I'll use it to the ends of making the system, the process run better. But on my own, when I am not paying attention, it is one thing I greatly dislike about myself.
    Yeah, this part about being an INTj sucks. I find myself betraying my real emotional state constantly in the name of trying to affect positive emotions in other so as to protect the ever sensitive Fe receptor. I'm in sales, so I'm constantly having to kiss ass when I'd rather be telling people to screw off. It's maddening, but...there's no way around it. INTjs simply do not like negative emotions...in particular anger, which I think scares us in that we fear it could turn into physical violence, as we can't predict emotional changes in people very well.

    The emotional anger of ESFps and ESTps scares the shit out of me the most, and I will almost never reciprocate anger (despite feeling the same way) due to the greater importance of ensuring they don't go crazy on me and resort to physical violence (which negatively affects Si). Not coincidentally I avoid these types like the plague whenever possible as I know it is perfectly acceptable to them to resort to such actions in support of negative emotions. I'm most guilty of maintaining a cheery disposition around these types for this reason.

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    Not me. That doesn't work for me - faking cheeriness.

    I become even more neutral, or perhaps "fuck off" mode.

    The one thing I have down pat, and for years have, is the ability to give people no psychological handles. Distance comes naturally, and most people don't bother me, and don't know me enough to feel comfortable getting upset at me. And because I don't carry myself like a pussy (though I used to moreso in highschool), there's very little for people to interact with. This is indeed a favorite part about who I am - no one gives me trouble.



    What I would suggest to you is change how you go about your stuff, because the Se types can see you fake emotional bullshit, and will chase you and seek you out to vent on for it. Like a dog that smells fear - it is natural for them to 'chase victims'. But you're not a victim are you? If you want some tips let me know.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    It's not necessarily about them recognizing phony "cheeriness"...and perhaps "cheery" is the wrong word. But at this point in my life, it's simply a matter of choosing which battles to fight. If I have to fake a disposition around them in order to avoid their desire for a fight (and they're ALWAYS looking for one), then so be it. That's not to say I'm going to give into their demands, as in business, logic trumps most (not all unfortunately), and since their preferred way of dealing with things is always ineffective in this environement, I find it works quite well. In social situations, where the same rules do not apply, I simply avoid these types if I do not have sufficient experience dealing with that individual (e.g., I don't hang out in biker bars). I appreciate the offer of advice, but I've learned to accept that using weaker and unvalued functions such as Fi (changing my own emotionat state to deal with others) is a necessary component to life, even if it might come off as a little phony to some. I've managed to develop this function quite effectively as attested to by various reliable sources. My acceptance of this has allowed me to be successful in positions and situations that I probably would not have been otherwise, such as sales, and in social settings. I never assume people are as analytical about the underlying (real) personalities of others as the INTj, and for the most part, they aren't.

    I will add that in my experience, being overly rigid about your principals and values is not the best way to accomplish the long term goals that an INTj constantly has in the back of his/her mind, in particular, a balanced pleasant, productive environment. Acceptance of reality when needed is a valuable tool of an INTj should he or she wish to operate there. Not to say that changes can't be made while visiting.

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    This is precisely what I meant in http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...r=asc&start=15

    >> I enjoy the uniqueness of the interaction with my identical. The sensation of peace and relief, where you don't have to explain yourself, and you understand how the other person "ticks".

    I am so sick of doing "fake smiles". I want the relief to be able to be myself; to not have to show my inner and private emotions on my face, and then have someone else misinterpret this apparent lack of emotion as a "heart of stone", or that "something's wrong", etc.

    The horrible thing is that I'm even starting to do fake smiles to other INTjs, and I've even had other INTjs ask me "what's wrong", etc. (It's as if INTjs are so oversensitive, they even misinterpret behaviours of their own in other INTjs.) (I guess this is where understanding socionics comes in - if you know that both of you are INTjs, then you can trust your own instincts to a certain extent about the other person's behaviour, rather than trying to interpret them in such a way that you are susceptible to becoming oversensitive.)

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    A relationship with my identical would not be very fulfilling to me. It would be like going out with a sibling if i had one. I do not need Ti from other people, or Ne.

    You will come to find ESEs are very understanding, and actually don't mind your facial expressions, etc. It gives them an excuse to be who they really are, and they will give you an excuse to be who you really are. But it might be hard to see that if you haven't had enough positive experiences around them yet.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    That's true, I haven't had many experiences around them yet.

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    Default LII Fi - severity

    Quote Originally Posted by Strati Fi
    It is very receptive to any manifestation of falsity and hypocrisy (this it calculates he logically and feels intuitively) - with such people is very cold, immediately is established distant distance. It is very retentive to the offence, to any manifestation of tactlessness and injustice with respect to itself and by others. To form its own ethical relations To robesp'eru is sufficiently difficult.
    "but disguise of every sort is my abhorrence" (5:25)

    I swear upon the alter of God, eternal hostility to every form of tyranny
    over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson

    edit: Video replaced



    Both seem MBTI INTJ, especially the first one
    The second one perhaps comes off as more INTj
    The original/first one may come off as ISTj

    In the later version - Darcy's twitch at the mention of Mr Wickham (1:20)
    Last edited by bg; 03-15-2009 at 04:53 PM.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I believe the LII's Fi is expressed through the INTj's pursuit of justice; their understanding of justice and their actions taken with it are the LII's Fi. So, yes, their Fi does have a very austere, stern quality to it due to the fact that their inherent Ti-ness renders it almost judicial(the ESFj is responsible for softening this view and incorporating compassion into it.)
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    intj/isfj share - which manifests (in part) as "tendency toward the rigid morals with the polar views - hatred- love, confidence- suspiciousness, mercy- ostracism, good- evil and so forth, etc. " I think it is for this reason that -:Ji: tends to be more vindictive/vengeful though intjs try to hide this behind the guise of "honorable intentions" or some such much in the same manner that entjs do.

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    The problem is when you expect other people to follow your higher standards, and you'd rather shortcuts yourself.
    When in fact the harder and better thing to do would be to "be square with yourself and round with others" *- that is to say, be hardest on yourself about staying true to your values, but show forgiveness and consideration to others.

    It is much easier to only point the finger and show contempt for others faults.
    I am not perfect in that way, obviously, as I unable to go about my true objective with XoX without crossing too far into that side of things.
    It is difficult when you want to help or show the way for someone to improve. The ego must be monitored, and you have to know when you are just trying to make yourself look or feel better, and when you are actually trying to "show tough love" so to say, and be harsh out of real concern for wellbeing.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Kiera is typed as an ISFp?

    It makes sense --- watching the two clips back to back really brings out her expressions
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Nothing necessarily specific to this thread, but I just wanted to say:

    damn I am glad to be an INTj. I wouldn't want to be any other type, or any other type of INTj than I am.
    But today was a good INTj day.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Nothing necessarily specific to this thread, but I just wanted to say:

    damn I am glad to be an INTj. I wouldn't want to be any other type, or any other type of INTj than I am.
    But today was a good INTj day.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    Nothing necessarily specific to this thread, but I just wanted to say:

    damn I am glad to be an INTj. I wouldn't want to be any other type, or any other type of INTj than I am.
    But today was a good INTj day.
    Agreed. It would be interesting to live as an enfj/esfj/infj for a few days though. Emotions, introjection of other's feelings, or feelings in general () are things that I will never fully comprehend.

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    I am content with the emotionality others bring to my door, I am not going to go seek it out myself.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFVB
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP III
    I can't stand it.

    I'll use it to the ends of making the system, the process run better. But on my own, when I am not paying attention, it is one thing I greatly dislike about myself.
    Yeah, this part about being an INTj sucks. I find myself betraying my real emotional state constantly in the name of trying to affect positive emotions in other so as to protect the ever sensitive Fe receptor. I'm in sales, so I'm constantly having to kiss ass when I'd rather be telling people to screw off. It's maddening, but...there's no way around it. INTjs simply do not like negative emotions...in particular anger, which I think scares us in that we fear it could turn into physical violence, as we can't predict emotional changes in people very well.

    The emotional anger of ESFps and ESTps scares the shit out of me the most, and I will almost never reciprocate anger (despite feeling the same way) due to the greater importance of ensuring they don't go crazy on me and resort to physical violence (which negatively affects Si). Not coincidentally I avoid these types like the plague whenever possible as I know it is perfectly acceptable to them to resort to such actions in support of negative emotions. I'm most guilty of maintaining a cheery disposition around these types for this reason.

    if you're really an INTj and you're in sales, my condolences. :wink: that career path must be rife with ESFps and ESTps.

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